The demonization of China

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WWWTT
The demonization of China

This subject deserves it’s own thread so here it is. 

There’s a double standard used against China. And even posters here at babble (not mentioning any names, you know who you are!) are comfortable with holding this double standard. 

Bordering on racism, if not full blown, this is getting uglier. And as China’s influential sphere grows, the imperialist old guard grows enraged. 

Mobo2000

WWWTT:   I agree there is an active mainstream media campaign (or ICM campaign, as you prefer) demonizing China,  curious for your thoughts why.   I thought this article was a pretty good summary of the American empire's perspective.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/02/20/war-with-china-its-already-under...

"Washington’s fears of a rising China were on full display in January with the release of the 2019 Worldwide Threat Assessment of the U.S. Intelligence Community, a synthesis of the views of the Central Intelligence Agency and other members of that “community.” Its conclusion: “We assess that China’s leaders will try to extend the country’s global economic, political, and military reach while using China’s military capabilities and overseas infrastructure and energy investments under the Belt and Road Initiative to diminish U.S. influence.”

To counter such efforts, every branch of government is now expected to mobilize its capabilities to bolster American — and diminish Chinese — power. In Pentagon documents, this stance is summed up by the term “overmatch,” which translates as the eternal preservation of American global superiority vis-à-vis China (and all other potential rivals). “The United States must retain overmatch,” the administration’s National Security Strategy insists, and preserve a “combination of capabilities in sufficient scale to prevent enemy success,” while continuing to “shape the international environment to protect our interests.”

In other words, there can never be parity between the two countries. The only acceptable status for China is as a distinctly lesser power. To ensure such an outcome, administration officials insist, the U.S. must take action on a daily basis to contain or impede its rise."

Pondering

It isn't necessary to demonize China and this isn't news. Of course the US isn't going to allow any other power on Earth to equal its own if it can prevent it by any means including atomic/nuclear bombs. They didn't built the biggest military in the world for nothing. They aren't going to give up their economic dominance willingly. 

The richest most powerful people in the world are multi-state. Like old royalty their connections transcend boundries. They are citizens of the world with multiple homes on every continent and their wealth scattered so it can never be lost. 

Much as I dislike American dominance I think Chinese dominance would be worse. 

Mobo2000

Why do you think Chinese dominance would be worse?  

Personally I think a (more) multipolar world would be a step in the right direction.  

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
There’s a double standard used against China.

Ya, in the last few years people have begun criticizing China nearly half as much, and half as cynically, as they criticize the U.S.

Quote:
Bordering on racism

Like criticism of Israel?  Is it like "Russophobia"??

Sean in Ottawa

I think the tone of this thread is problematic. It comes in criticism of posters here possibly to silence what they want to speak about when it comes to China. It makes assumptions that any negative statement about the Chinese government that is racist. No government not Canada, the US ought to have such protected status here. People objecting to positions of various government can debate them here but when it comes to China they are met with accusations of racism.

There have not been direct racist statements about the Chinese people or their government here. There are statements critical of the regime that others atttack as racist becuase they make presumptions about the motivations of posters. We could extend this to every thread about every government, however, this is just China.

Yes, there is reason to think there may be some institutional racism against China in the MSM. However to accuse this booard of being racist for criticising China should have a very high standard that is not being met.

I have spoken out in favour of China on many issues here and have spoken out against. When the Chinese government defenders respond to me they agree if I speak favourabley and shut down any negative statement with direct or indirect accusations of racism. I have understood that this is the response to ALL criticism of the Chinese government here.

You want to call me racist for that then I want to speak about attempted silencing and censorship of legitimate opinion.

The Chinese government is not immune to criticism. Here in this place nobody is. The suggestion that you are either on the side of the government of China or you are racist is deeply offensive. Putting this in a thread to smear critics of China is deeply offensive. Come out say it so people can defend if they want to.

 

This thread and any like it should be closed. If you think a poster is racist defend your attack -- it should win or fail. This is bullshit.

But I will make a deal here. If this thread stands and we accept that we shoudl censor or attack any person critical of China I will accept it. I will never post again and close my account. Some may love this deal. I won't wrote on a board that is going to protect any government from criticism. Nor will I write on a board that will minimize the seriousness of racism by using it as a tool to protect a government.

This thread stinks of the same bullshit used to protect the government of Israel: any criticism of Israel is anti semetic.

So lets see the reaction and see if I am out of here for good. this is not a flounce this is a matter of the most basic principle of freedom of expression.

For the record I love China and Chinese culture and am not a fan of the Chinese government. If I have to be a fan of the Chinese government to post here I am fucking out of here.

Mobo2000

Sean :  My emphasis in my post was the MSM's reporting on China that plays into or creates a useful xenophobia for would-be imperialists.     I agree with this:

"Yes, there is reason to think there may be some institutional racism against China in the MSM. However to accuse this booard of being racist for criticising China should have a very high standard that is not being met."

I think WWTTT was trying to start a conversation, not get people banned.    I think it's very unlikely that anyone is going to be censored or attacked by babble moderators or the majority of babblers for being critical of China.   You may get attacked by WWTTT for it, and there is space available to talk about it in this thread.   But I shouldn't mindread, and WWTTT can speak for himself on this.

 

Mobo2000

Magoo:    Here is an argument by Chomsky about the value of moral condemnation of the crimes of others.   He makes the same argument in many different interviews/articles, and I think it's correct.    Curious if you have any comment:

https://chomsky.info/20020214/

"It is perhaps the most elementary of moral truisms, that we are responsible for the anticipated consequences of our own action, or inaction. It may be fine to study the crimes of Genghis Khan, but there is no moral value to condemning them; we can’t do anything about them."

"If I publish a paper here reviewing and condemning the crimes of Genghis Khan, the human consequences are approximately zero; I’m joining in universal condemnation, and adding another pea to the mountain certainly doesn’t help his victims, or anyone else for that matter.

Suppose in some part of the world, say Mongolia, his crimes were being suppressed or praised or even used as a model for current actions. Then it would be of great moral value to condemning his crimes there, because of the human consequences. Take your other example: condemnation in Pakistan of the impact of US corporate and state power in Pakistan. There is great moral value to condemn that in ways that affect the exercise of that power, which means mostly here, in the US. For Pakistanis, if the condemnations have no effect on the exercise of that power, then in that respect the moral value is slight; if they have an effect in raising the level of understanding of Pakistanis, to enable them to act more constructively, then the moral value could be great. In all cases, we are back to anticipated human consequences.

Let’s take a concrete case. For intellectuals in Russia in the Communist days, condemnation of US crimes had little if any moral value; in fact, it might have had negative value, in serving to buttress the oppressive and brutal Soviet system. In contrast, when Eastern European dissidents condemned the crimes of their own states and society, it had great moral value."

"That’s why, for example, I was critical of Pakistan’s policies concerning Kashmir when speaking in Pakistan, and of India’s policies there when speaking in India. But I cannot – and no one else should – have a great deal of confidence in what I say as a concerned outsider. And there isn’t much that I can do about the very severe problems. In contrast, there is a great deal I can do about problems within the US, and about policy decisions of systems of power there. And for just that reason, that’s my primary responsibility."

NDPP

But 'Don't Let China Take the World Hostage' would be okay right? 

Mobo2000

NDPP:  Not sure if you are asking me, we may have cross posted.   "Don't Let China Take the World Hostage" was not ok with me, but was dealt with well in that thread by the contributing babblers, in my view, and I think that's all that is required.    Ideal, even, for the non-posting readers.

Sean in Ottawa

Mobo2000 wrote:

Sean :  My emphasis in my post was the MSM's reporting on China that plays into or creates a useful xenophobia for would-be imperialists.     I agree with this:

"Yes, there is reason to think there may be some institutional racism against China in the MSM. However to accuse this booard of being racist for criticising China should have a very high standard that is not being met."

I think WWTTT was trying to start a conversation, not get people banned.    I think it's very unlikely that anyone is going to be censored or attacked by babble moderators or the majority of babblers for being critical of China.   You may get attacked by WWTTT for it, and there is space available to talk about it in this thread.   But I shouldn't mindread, and WWTTT can speak for himself on this.

 

This is directed against not just against the MSM but against posters here and very directly. It is not about starting a conversation it is about bullying people into not daring criticize China for fear of a pile-on accusing them of racism.

No government should be immune.

This is exactly the tactic used in many places regarding Israel. Exactly.

Just change the words in the OP and you can see what the meaning is. How can we have different standards for different governments of different countries?

If someone says something outright racist then ban them. Don't use insinuations like this smearing any who want to not toe the party line on China in all respects.

If someone here is being racist call them on it. Point to the statment and be prepared to defend your accusation.

Otherwise this is a red flag warning to any who speak about China to make sure that the Communist Party of China would approve.

This thread, as the opening post makes clear, is the result of some conflict on this point across threads here where people are accused of being racist or imperialist by the opening poster at any time they criticize the Chinese government.

If we are now going to establish that it is racist to criticize a foreign government then the International section of the politics thread ought to be shut down. Right now.

We have already established HERE that racism against countries is wrong and that we criticize the apporach of mainstream media. But we have attempts to censor here. People attacked if they do not post disclaimers or becuase they posted media articles from the mainstream for conversation. Yes, we should be critical but must this be an echo chamber?

This is not about some people who know who they are as the opening post pretends -- this is about past and future people who have posted things the opening poster did not like about China. They are all identifiable.

This is not a small principle. I have been here more than 15 years and I will go based on this if this place is not the open board that it claimed to be.

I would do the same over criticism of Israel or of the BDS movement. It is exactly the same issue.

Here you get to criticize any political entity. Anywhere. without fear of being accused of racism or imperialism. You back up your argument. You can get banned for racism. That is what a free site looks like.

This is what bullying to protect one government from criticism looks like.

ETA: If a person wants to come here and demonize all governments including that of China and back it up that used to be their right. If they wanted to demonize one government they had knowledge or concern about that is also a right. They just cannot demonize the people - make racist statements. this extension of the need to protect humans from racism should never be extended to protect governments from criticism.

And if claiming that the Chinese government with its authoritarian tendencies and state surveilance deserves criticism and discussion here makes me racist then I will leave. No problem. It would mean that I do not fit here. It would mean that my idea of human rights does not belong here. I criticize many governments inlcuding Canada's -- I am not going to make special rules for the Chinese government practices even if there is an army of bullies here representing the Chinese government interest. Easier to realize that this place jumped the shark and I am no longer a person who can fit here.

 

Mobo2000

Sean:   Just to respond on one point you make above -

"How can we have different standards for different countries?"

My post #8 present Chomsky's argument, which I agree with, for why we should have different standards when choosing what to condemn about different countries. 

Sean in Ottawa

Mobo2000 wrote:

Sean:   Just to respond on one point you make above -

"How can we have different standards for different countries?"

My post #8 present Chomsky's argument, which I agree with, for why we should have different standards when choosing what to condemn about different countries. 

Explain why China qualifies in a way Israel does not to have a protection from the negative comment in political discussion about its government. (Let's not even discuss the fact that this kind of site cannot exist there.)

Does Chomsky argue that governments of countries get immune to criticism? Please send link.

Every Criticism Of China's government gets methodically attacked by the Opening Poster.

None of the critcisms were attacks on China or the people or culture of that country.

We Need to be able to tell the difference between a substantiated and argued criticism of A government and that of a country.

Bias can be exposed and argued but silencing like this achieves nothing. Most people admit that biases exist. If we shut down everyone with a bias or scream bias when anyone says something we dislike, we can have no conversation anywhere. this is an attempt to make China's government immune to the kind of conversation we have about every other country's government in the world.

Mobo2000

Sean, we are allies with Israel and "strategic rivals" of  China.    Criticism of the Israeli government, by Canadians to Canadians, if public and effective, undermines the alliance.   Criticism of the Chinese government, by Canadians to Canadians, if public and effective, reinforces our rivalry.   When we criticize or condemn governments, are we just scorekeeping?   Or are we hoping our condemnation has an effect?   If we hope it has an effect, than it's prudent to think about what the effect might be, no?

But I get the feeling I'm just getting in the middle of half an argument here, so I'll stop.

Sean in Ottawa

Mobo2000 wrote:

Sean, we are allies with Israel and "strategic rivals" of  China.    Criticism of the Israeli government, by Canadians to Canadians, if public and effective, undermines the alliance.   Criticism of the Chinese government, by Canadians to Canadians, if public and effective, reinforces our rivalry.   When we criticize or condemn governments, are we just scorekeeping?   Or are we hoping our condemnation has an effect?   If we hope it has an effect, than it's prudent to think about what the effect might be, no?

I thought we were discussing ideas and what is right and wrong and the kind of world that we want to support but what the hell do I know?

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Curious if you have any comment

Well, I think I see his point, somewhat, that there's less value in simply condemning Hitler, and more value in condeming a local company that did good business with the Nazis.

But I think there's a difference between saying "China spies on its citizens and that's bad and they should stop", and saying "China spies on its citizens and it would be a bit imprudent to let them build our new cellphone infrastructure".

And if we slightly modify one of his paragraphs: "Suppose in some part of the world, say [babble], [China's] crimes were being suppressed or praised or even used as a model for current actions. Then it would be of great moral value to condemning [China's] crimes there, because of the human consequences. "

This isn't just about awful, western-centric faux progressives criticizing China.  It's about others slavishly praising them at every opportunity.  I never imagined I'd see the day on babble when China would be held up as an example of democracy and good governance, but here we are.  I hear they're leading the world in environmental responsibility, too.  I have to wonder if there's anything they can't do!

So ya, I don't see any problem pushing back against that kind of silliness.  Calling that "racism" is disgusting.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

WWWTT Thanks for trying. No there is no space on this board for a reasoned dialogue about China. Most posters here still think that the CBC is an unbiased news source.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Thanks Magoo and Sean for shutting down any discussion on China except to condemn it. Ready Aye Ready

Since discussing China from any perspective except a negative one is offensive to you chaps how's that democracy surge in Venezuela going, have the US and Canada installed a democratic government yet?

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
No there is no space on this board for a reasoned dialogue about China.

On the contrary, there's plenty of space for it, if we could just stop playing winner-takes-all team sports.

Quote:
Thanks Magoo and Sean for shutting down any discussion on China except to condemn it.

This thread wasn't an attempt to start any kind of reasoned dialogue.  It was a denunciation.

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Canadians demonizing Chinese people? Heaven forbid such a thing could ever happen. I dare anyone to show me any instances of this happening. Hell we all love Chan Kong-sang don't we?

WWWTT

@Mobo 2000

Thanks for supporting/contributing to this thread! 

At the moment I believe the old imperialists are using their servants, the icm, to spread bad publicity about China to reduce investment/trade between the west and China. 

HuaWei is the prime example requiring the least work in making a convincing argument. The icm has probably already convinced a 50% + majority in many western nations that HuaWei technology (cell phones/computers) are currently being used by the Chinese military for espionage. 

Most of the manufactured products coming from China into Canada/US is low technology or just basic stuff. And I don’t think Trumps trade war, despite his ranting about the existing trade deficit between their two nations, is being driven by basic manufactured products. I believe the fear is that in 10-20 years, China will replace the US in hi tech. 

In the meantime, I believe Trump will be settling the trade dispute with Xi. And China will get the cream. If the US wants to keep their hi technology competitive?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-trump-asia-china-deals-boeing-idUSKBN1D91BZ

WWWTT

Mr Magoo wrote

This thread wasn't an attempt to start any kind of reasoned dialogue.  It was a denunciation.

I started this thread because I feel babble needs a specific thread for something that’s happening right now. 

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Thanks Magoo and Sean for shutting down any discussion on China except to condemn it. Ready Aye Ready

Since discussing China from any perspective except a negative one is offensive to you chaps how's that democracy surge in Venezuela going, have the US and Canada installed a democratic government yet?

Ok -- this is the kind of bullshit this place has now come to.

There is no point being here any more.

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Here is a prime example of our oligarchies media's demonizing of China. This story is nothing but yellow peril scare mongering. The last time we allowed our elites and their media to do this Canadian citizens got sent to internment camps in the interior of BC and lost all their possessions.

The request for a federal probe raised to a new level concerns over Beijing’s attempts at moulding opinion in Canada — even as Chinese diplomats deny they played any part in the two recent episodes.

...

In one of the cases this month, Chinese students launched a petition — garnering 11,000 digital “signatures” — calling for the removal of a Tibetan-Canadian woman just elected as a student union president at the University of Toronto, as the student herself, Chemi Lhamo, faced a barrage of abusive online messages.

In the other incident, five Chinese student groups — acknowledging they had been in contact with the Chinese consulate — criticized McMaster University in Hamilton for permitting a talk by a Uyghur–Canadian woman that highlighted well-documented abuses against her people in China’s Xinjiang province.

https://nationalpost.com/news/student-groups-call-for-ottawa-to-investig...

The first "incident" involves 11,000 internet signatures and online abuse. First we have no idea who conducted the online abuse so for all we know it might have been white supremacists amplifying the message of hate. But even if it was all Chinese students studying in Canada there are over 350,000 individuals and only 11,000 signed a petition and even less engaged in abuse. I am sure that this woman's views on Tibet are an affront to many people from China and the idea that 3% of students potentially signing an online petition is proof of state interference not only demonizes China it also implies that Chinese students are brainwashed and not to be trusted. The second incident is even more bizarre. Imagine four groups talking to their embassy about a talk that may or may not tell a fair and unbiased view of the security state in that region of China. I wonder if it will show pictures from the towns in Syria destroyed by jihadists who moved from that region of China. All police states are evil but they all claim to be dealing with potential violence against regular citizens by terrorists. The idea that students talking to their embassy about issues being discussed in Canada seems pretty normal to me. The Nazi Post and other MSM seems to think that the over 350,000 students have no minds of their own and could not possibly think that China is a open society that is not a Big Brother state anymore than Canada. Some might say we need to investigate this online petition for the security of our democracy but I say it seems that the Chinese are way less effective than any of the US/NATO soft power/regime change groups .

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

So it’s okay that China has occupied Tibet?

Unionist

Timebandit wrote:

So it’s okay that China has occupied Tibet?

Well, the CIA isn't happy about it. But there's only so much benevolent foreigners can do to help.

 

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

So that’s a yes?

Unionist

Timebandit wrote:

So that’s a yes?

I have no idea. Didn't realize it was a burning issue, except for the Dalai Lama. I'm far more concerned with what Canada is doing to Indigenous people. I'm far more concerned with Canada's support for aggression against Palestinians, threats against Venezuela, Russia, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, I think you're familiar with the list. And denial of Québec's right to self-determination (via instruments like the Clarity Act and others).

I don't much like when the Prime Minister and the leader of the Opposition condemn, by name, a pro-Palestinian activist like Dmitri Lascaris, falsely accusing him of anti-Semitism.

You see, we have real problems in Canada of opposing imperialism and colonialism, and of standing up for freedom of expression.

Two student groups asking the Nazi's granddaughter to investigate possible Chinese sabotage of Canadian democracy? I'm reminded of the CIA's donations to the Dalai Lama's regime. I'm calling U.S. covert interference, until proven otherwise. I'll be writing to Trump and asking him to investigate.

Hope that reply is clear?

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Timebandit wrote:

So it’s okay that China has occupied Tibet?

In which century? I doubt if it was okay for the British to invade or the Chinese but they have been doing it repeatedly through the ages. Tibet was an independent feudal state during the period between the two world wars when China was at its lowest point in modern history.

Free Hawaii, its occupation by the US since 1898 is intolerable.

Free the West Bank, its occupation by Israel is intolerable.

Free the Catalans, the occupation of Catalonia by Spain is intolerable.

Sorry for the short list but it seems that China is not unique in its resolve to determine what it controls. To claim that the status of Tibet's sovereignty is somehow a black and white issue is rather facile.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

So we’re going with relativism. Good to know. 

Just that I recall rabble.ca being pro-Tibetan independence over the better part of the last two decades, it seems a little peculiar to have such a reversal. Has something changed on this issue?

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Gee I thought babble was a mix of people posting on issues not a hive mind.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Gee, I thought certain principles like human rights and opposition to countries occupying other, smaller countries were something people here shared. 

Question still stands. 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Colonialism is like cholesterol; there's the good kind and the bad kind.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Timebandit wrote:

Gee, I thought certain principles like human rights and opposition to countries occupying other, smaller countries were something people here shared. 

Question still stands. 

Of course it does but this is thread about the widening trend to demonize China. If you fail to see that this is like the demonizing of the Japanese in the mid to late '30's that is not my problem. You want to chance someone eles country I want to stop mine from making the same racist mistakes over an over again. As usual you and Magoo are really interested in the human rights of anyone, as long as they live in a non-vassal state of the West. The human rights of people in vassal states doesn't fire you up in nearly the same way.

Unionist

Timebandit wrote:

Just that I recall rabble.ca being pro-Tibetan independence over the better part of the last two decades, it seems a little peculiar to have such a reversal. Has something changed on this issue?

I have never been "pro-Tibetan independence", and if rabble.ca made that a condition of posting, I'd be out of here in 2 seconds flat.

I do, however, recall rabble.ca being pro-Québec independence over the better part of the last two decades, it seems a little peculiar to have such a reversal. Has something changed on this issue?

Vive le Québec libre! Le Québec aux Québécois! Down with Anglo-Canadian imperialism / colonialism / benevolent ethnic and linguistic superiority!!!

Now, would it be possible to get back to reality?

So tell me TB: Do you support the demonization of China which is currently all the fashion in the U.S. and Canadian media? Do you think the kidnapping and detention of Meng is reflective of the "RULE OF LAW" in Canada? Do you think Huawei should be confiscated and broken up before it finishes undermining what little is left of FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY in the FREE WORLD? Do you think we should pull our ambassador from China until it frees those innocent Canadians detained for no reason whatsoever in that medieval dictatorial country? Just some innocent questions here.

Oh wait. Should we name an ambassador to Tibet? How about Xinjiang? Do you think the Uighurs have less of a case against Chinese occupation than the Tibetans?

Take your time.

WWWTT

Timebandit wrote:

Gee, I thought certain principles like human rights and opposition to countries occupying other, smaller countries were something people here shared. 

Question still stands. 

who’s human rights? Are you the judge and jury that sets the bar at what human rights are? Who gave you the authority to determine what are human rights? rabble? What about the human slaves that were owned by the Tibetan ruling classes. Are they worthy of “westerners” human rights?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=evkGkDsp8wQ

https://www.prisoncensorship.info/archive/etext/faq/tibet.html

 

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Sorry, not seeing where either Magoo or myself have condoned human rights abuses anywhere in the world - perhaps you can explain what you mean?  

I don’t think anyone here has “demonized” China. Some of us have pointed out some not really awesome things about China, certainly, but they’re demonstrable. What puzzles me is that we’ve now got a faction of posters who will go to great lengths to deny anything remotely negative about some deeply problematic nations (not just China), and a number of long-time posters who seem to have made some unusual shifts in perspective about those kinds of things. 

For example, if the US scrutinizes you crossing the border or gathers information on you, they’re bad. But if China does, that’s perfectly okay. And if Russia gathers your data, well, they’re just doing what they have to do. 

I don’t think Magoo and I are the ones who are more worried about some abuses as opposed to others. 

WWWTT

@Timebandit

My intention here is to provide alternative view/perspective and opinions with hopefully supporting links. Albeit, the links are very hard to come by. 

WWWTT

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Colonialism is like cholesterol; there's the good kind and the bad kind.

Where does Mongolia fit on your colonialism scale of cholesterol levels?

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

WWWTT wrote:

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Colonialism is like cholesterol; there's the good kind and the bad kind.

Where does Mongolia fit on your colonialism scale of cholesterol levels?

In which century?

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

WWWTT wrote:

@Timebandit

My intention here is to provide alternative view/perspective and opinions with hopefully supporting links. Albeit, the links are very hard to come by. 

Right. Some of those views are alternative enough to be at odds with reality. 

NDPP

Whenever the dog-whistle of war is blown by the PTB, you can always count on some Canadian liberals to respond in their own time honoured fashion firstly by declaring they are 'neutral but' in the fight and then proceeding to attack the official target country, all the while proclaiming their love for the people, culture, history, cuisine etc, while they manufacture consent for the planned imperialist aggression with all their dirty little contributions to the object at hand - building the necessary animus for the warparty to proceed. I have seen it go this way with every imperialist targeting operation thus far. Libya, Ukraine, Syria, Venezuela,  Russia and now China. It's just the way they roll. Afterwards, they will disappear from view or  tell you they were always on the side of peace and the angels. The only problem is they are usually far too obvious in demonstrating which side they are 'neutral' on. 

WWWTT

Timebandit wrote 

Right. Some of those views are alternative enough to be at odds with reality. 

Huh, that’s exactly what I was thinking when some posters here use the icm filled with slanted opinion and never question it

Sounds like you don’t like alternative views, so then try to discredit it by saying that it’s not rooted in any reality.  

 

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

That’s your interpretation and extrapolation, it’s got nothing to do with anything I’ve thought or said.  Which again makes your claim of just putting alternative views out there. Take a statement, restate it as meaning something it doesn’t explicitly say, run with that. 

Alternative views, my Aunt Fanny. 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
who’s human rights? Are you the judge and jury that sets the bar at what human rights are? Who gave you the authority to determine what are human rights? rabble?

Yes.  We need to stop ramming our western notions of human rights down the throats of other countries.  It's practically racist.

Did we learn nothing from our meddling in South Africa's sovereign affairs?  Are we about to make the same mistake in Israel?  Can't we just stay in our own lane?

cco

WWWTT wrote:

Are you the judge and jury that sets the bar at what human rights are? Who gave you the authority to determine what are human rights?

How about human rights treaties China has signed?

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Oh, my - missed this little gem:

who’s human rights? Are you the judge and jury that sets the bar at what human rights are? Who gave you the authority to determine what are human rights? rabble? What about the human slaves that were owned by the Tibetan ruling classes. Are they worthy of “westerners” human rights?

As far as human rights go, the UNHCR has a pretty solid definition. 

But if occupation of a country that abuses human rights by the above’s definition is okay in terms of what’s been claimed about Tibet, then there are a number of other occupations around the world we should back off from. This is not my opinion - I don’t support any occupation. I’m pointing out the inconsistency. 

Which comes back to relativism. Start using a relativist stance and you can justify pretty much anything.

Is that what babble is now?

WWWTT

Timebandit wrote:

As far as human rights go, the UNHCR has a pretty solid definition. 

Ya China has a real solid definition of human rights to! Want to read some? Want to consider applying them to Canada in the same manner that you want to apply the UN version to China?

http://www.china.org.cn/government/whitepaper/node_7156850.htm

WWWTT

cco wrote:
WWWTT wrote:

Are you the judge and jury that sets the bar at what human rights are? Who gave you the authority to determine what are human rights?

How about human rights treaties China has signed?

See comment #48, your double standards are showing. 

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

WWWTT wrote:

Timebandit wrote:

As far as human rights go, the UNHCR has a pretty solid definition. 

Ya China has a real solid definition of human rights to! Want to read some? Want to consider applying them to Canada in the same manner that you want to apply the UN version to China?

http://www.china.org.cn/government/whitepaper/node_7156850.htm

That is an “action plan” - not really a definitive answer. 

Anyway, it’s fascinating that some of their goals on detention didn’t apply to one of their foremost artists. 

Can you please explain why China needs an alternative definition of human rights than the rest of the world? Should the Saudis have their own definition we aren’t allowed to question?

And again - When you get hostile and defensive, this idea that you’re just proposing an alternate perspective doesn’t ring true. 

WWWTT

Timebandit wrote

Can you please explain why China needs an alternative definition of human rights than the rest of the world?

Ya sure! China has 1,400 million people. So by default they can put out their own version. I posted it here to illustrate that it’s actually compelling! Has a lot of useful rights that western nations would never want to even hear!

Ya and who gives a ratts ass about Saudia Arabia? What’s your point? What are you trying to imply? Why are you playing this stupid game? 

 

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