The demonization of China

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epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..while i post this i do not support us/western attacks on china.

Effort to Form Union in China Meets Ferocious Repression

A group of workers in China’s manufacturing hub of Shenzhen tried something very rare this summer—they attempted to follow the legal process to set up a union.

University students lent tremendous support. But their employer and the Chinese government cracked down on both the workers and the students with firings, detention, surveillance, and the threat of jail sentences.

Workers at the welding-equipment manufacturer Shenzhen Jasic Technology initiated the process of forming a union in May. Among their biggest complaints were arbitrary fines and the company’s underpayment into government-run funds that help workers pay rent or buy houses.

Workers followed the law in setting up a union, including requesting and receiving permission from upper-level unions affiliated with the government-controlled All-China Federation of Trade Unions, the only unions authorized in China.

In response to a rising tide of labor disputes, since the mid-2000s the ACFTU has built up more workplace branches, especially in foreign-invested firms, through a top-down effort. But these unions are notoriously ineffective at representing workers, focusing instead on organizing recreational activities and providing small holiday gifts. They mainly serve to preempt organizing.

quote:

CRACKDOWN

Disturbed by the outpouring of support, on July 27 the government arrested 29 Jasic workers and supporters, accusing them of “picking quarrels and provoking trouble,” a criminal charge often used by the government to suppress protests.

In response, workers and students formed a support group to demand that the government release all the detainees and respect the workers’ right to unionize. Thousands of workers and students signed online petitions.

Xinhua News, the government’s mouthpiece, has attempted to scapegoat two labor NGOs (similar to worker centers in the U.S.)—Shenzhen-based Dagongzhe and Hong Kong-based Worker Empowerment—for the workers’ actions. The government arrested a staff member and the registered agent of Dagongzhe. In 2015, the Chinese government launched a crackdown on groups like these, smearing them as foreign-funded organizations attempting to undermine the country’s stability.

Before dawn on August 24, riot police with full gear and shields broke into the apartment where members of the support group were staying and arrested more than 50 students and workers.

On the same day, two workers involved in the support group and two activists from the website “Pioneer,” which had been releasing frequent updates on the struggle, were arrested in Beijing.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..in solidarity

Join Live: Chinese Students and Labor Activists Battle Crackdown at Jasic

Thursday, February 21
8pm EST / 5pm PST

In the past six months, over 50 workers, students, and labor activists in China have been arrested or disappeared by the government. Their crime? Supporting workers at the Jasic welding equipment factory in their legal efforts to form a union.

The Jasic struggle has received tremendous support from student and labor activists across China—one of the few labor struggles marked by a strong student presence during the past 40 years of the country’s economic reforms. Publicity through Chinese social media platforms has overcome the mainstream media blackout on strikes and labor disputes in the increasingly repressive political environment under President Xi Jinping.

Yet the Jasic campaign has also faced the most severe political repression of any labor action in the past decade, as the Xi administration cracks down on labor NGOs, feminist activists, and human rights lawyers.

Join Labor Notes for a webinar on Thursday, February 21 at 8pm EST/5pm PST to hear more about the Jasic struggle, the conditions facing labor activists in China, and the importance of international solidarity with Chinese workers and students.

WWWTT
NDPP

'Between You and Me, We Call Them Predators'...

http://rabble.ca/comment/5543151#comment-5543151

"Even as she admitted they have not yet bought land..."

Under a prolonged and sustained demonization campaign this becomes increasingly acceptable. That no apology was proferred for this ugly racist slur is very telling. Even more outrageous given it's a euro-settler on stolen land.

WWWTT

Looks like a couple posters still don’t feel comfortable and/or like how I worded this thread opener so to save another thread drifting into this one I’ll give it a bump. 

First off, I’m not changing anything! Secondly I’m not apologizing for anything either. I prefer this approach 

Sean in Ottawa

WWWTT wrote:

Looks like a couple posters still don’t feel comfortable and/or like how I worded this thread opener so to save another thread drifting into this one I’ll give it a bump. 

First off, I’m not changing anything! Secondly I’m not apologizing for anything either. I prefer this approach 

At issue here is you made a sweeping accusation against other posters to kick off this thread linking them to racism and double standards. This thread has been allowed to continue for some unknown reason.

"There’s a double standard used against China. And even posters here at babble (not mentioning any names, you know who you are!) are comfortable with holding this double standard."

"Bordering on racism, if not full blown, this is getting uglier. And as China’s influential sphere grows, the imperialist old guard grows enraged."

Yes, you can accuse other people here of whatever you like. But you should identify the posts and say how they meet your condemnation as that is what this is.

Damn right you should apologize.

More to the point is this thread is clearly designed to silence people from any criticism of the Chinese government. You could have opened a fair debate about media bias or even about general population bias without the smear about people posting here. If you had the people you smeared may have even agreed with you. I would have. I believe that there are things to critize about China -- things that on a site like this we ought to criticize -- things that can affect Canada even. But I would absolutely acknowledge the racism and imperialism in apporaches to China.

My problem is that I do not want to agree with you  and support you now becuase I cannot make my remarks balanced -- I will be demonized unless I whitewash them into praise for China suggesting that attacks on China that may be part racism and part imperialism do not also include real concerns that are neither racist nor imperialist. The comments about racism and imperialism are unfair if they do not note that the Chinese government also engages in problematic behaviour that can be legitimately criticized.

Now as a point of fact people upthread say China does not engage in invading others. This is news to some of its neighbours who consider what is in their sea territories to be as important as their land territories. I will not provide many individual articles becuase you can each get your own sources but google the nine dash line and see a map. This line is based on the historical sea domination of China from Ming times. It overlaps the sea territories of several countries. China is building reef islands artificially and militarizing them. They are confronting fishing vessles from these other countries in sea areas closer to those countries than to China. It is problematic to exclude this massive sea claim from accusations and debates about invasion:

https://e.vnexpress.net/news/news/chinese-ships-were-invading-vietnamese...

The debate upthread about Tibet is another problem as it is difficult to agree with either side. Tibet's claim to being completely independent are poor. For most of the last millenium they have been within the Chinese empire. China's claim that they were part of China is also questionable though: the China they were part of was a different country and with a different relationship. During the time they were part of China before the 1912 revolution, Tibet also governed itself. It was more like a semi-autonomous province or vassel state. They were not part of a unitary centralized China as that did not extend to them. Important to them, China did not control historically Tibet's education (such as it was) or religion. In the last century China did invade them and they defended themselves and many were machine-gunned -- it was not a warm welcome. When you consider the extremes about the Tibetan debate you can see in many respects that both sides are not being fully honest. I like to stay out of this debate often because both sides dislike what I have to say based on my understanding of history. (By the way the Tibetans once razed the capital of China, at Nanjing I think around the 1100s. Later both countries were swept by the Mongols around the 13th century (If I remember the dates well). China and Tibet have a complicated history. The religion in Tibet is not all a positive experience either. It is a difficult debate to get into as you may find it dominated by two opposing and often incorrect perspectives.

Even Taiwan which comes up at times has a more complicated history with the mainland than people are often aware of. Taiwan has spent more of its history outside China than in -- A lot more. In fact China has only briefly held Taiwan in a state that controlled the mainland and Taiwan at the same time.

The question here is are we allowed to have real and balanced discussion about China or a whitewashed praising of the CPC only?

If we are not allowed the balanced discussion (meaning people can debate it and not always agree legitimately without automatic accusations of racism and imperialism) why are we allowed any discussion at all?

Comments here may be imperialistic or racist even if the individuals are not -- in this case you identify the post and comment specifically and level the accusation and support it. Saying that some people responding about China have said mean things that are not politically correct and piling on about it is a silencing tactic.

WWWTT

Hi Sean in Ottawa

Here’s an editorial pointer. Split up your comments. Your last comment covers all good debate issues but should be done in say 3 comments.  

When time permits I’ll come back to this thread thanks 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Sean the problem is perception. I don't disagree with what you said about Chinese history and I am well aware that Chinese history is a series of imperial states that controlled varying amounts of land and peoples in various periods. However I also agree with the premise of this thread which is that China is demonized in our Canadian media and on this board as well.

The opening post of this thread was not specific to you but you CHOOSE to presume your views are included as nearly racist.  WWWTT was wrong when he thought that the real racists would know who they are and pay attention. Unfortunately the real racists on this board couldn't care less and people like you think he is talking about you personally when he is likely not. When I turn on the CBC every piece they have about China makes me want to scream because of the bias and NATO imperialism. That is what I see in our media and it is demonization.

Mobo2000

"When I turn on the CBC every piece they have about China makes me want to scream because of the bias and NATO imperialism. "

This is exactly my reaction as well.  It is infuriating, predictable and incredibly dangerous.

NDPP

US Insists Germany Must Ban Huawei

https://youtu.be/nxlDLEF1iyQ

"The US has threatened German officials that there will be repercussions if Germany allows Chinese telecommunications giant Huawei to particpate in the deployment of 5G."

The bashing of official enemies including by what is styled as legitimate  'criticism' is a standard feature of  Western demonization propaganda campaigns and is designed to encourage and legitimize further animus and hostilities towards the targeted country/government.

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Sean the problem is perception. I don't disagree with what you said about Chinese history and I am well aware that Chinese history is a series of imperial states that controlled varying amounts of land and peoples in various periods. However I also agree with the premise of this thread which is that China is demonized in our Canadian media and on this board as well.

The opening post of this thread was not specific to you but you CHOOSE to presume your views are included as nearly racist.  WWWTT was wrong when he thought that the real racists would know who they are and pay attention. Unfortunately the real racists on this board couldn't care less and people like you think he is talking about you personally when he is likely not. When I turn on the CBC every piece they have about China makes me want to scream because of the bias and NATO imperialism. That is what I see in our media and it is demonization.

Seems we do agree on a lot here -- however, I do not agree that it is okay to start a thread that seems to attack posters and not identify them.

I do not agree that he did not mean to include me since he has made the same types of comments to me directly in threads in the past and has refused to back them up. I think the thread snekks of an attempt to silence any criticism of the Chinese government on the boards here.

I agree that the media generally has a heavy bias against China.

I do not think this board does. -- certainly not to justify a thread about it. There are more people who will defend China without any supporting eveidence than who will attack China. The conversation about China includes things that might not be fair but so what? The overall conversation HERE is actually balanced. I personally have contributed to balancing it at times by defending China at times as have many others. There is no trend or bias on this site against China worthy of smearing those who question China. For every post critical of China there is at least one supporting China.

The media bias does not justify the tone of the thread that had this you-know-who-you- are stuff -- when people can look and see who the last people who said something about China and were told that they should not. I was one. Even though a couple weeks earlier I had defended China in another discussion.

You say this is about perception -- why are you so confident that yours is right and mine is wrong???

Sean in Ottawa

NDPP wrote:

US Insists Germany Must Ban Huawei

https://youtu.be/nxlDLEF1iyQ

"The US has threatened German officials that there will be repercussions if Germany allows Chinese telecommunications giant Huawei to particpate in the deployment of 5G."

The bashing of official enemies including by what is styled as legitimate  'criticism' is a standard feature of  Western demonization propaganda campaigns and is designed to encourage and legitimize further animus and hostilities towards the targeted country/government.

This is in part backed up by the threat the US is making to charge countries for the US protection at 150% of cost for bases in their countries.

This is not unlike a protection racker either. The US destabilizes the world and is very aggressive. It creates or amplifies the need for protection and then charges for it.

Hopefully countries will identify the US bases they know the US wants and tell them they no longer are welcome there. When the US faces the loss of those they might realize that demanding protection money is not such a good idea after all.

Of course, in some ways there may be a benefit: some countries may elect governments who may be opposed to the US bases and use the bill as an excuse to tell them to take a hike. Others may reduce their need for protection by dealing with their security concerns through diplomacy and adjusted relations (perhaps South Korea to North Korea for example where they might be better able to co-exist with the US gone and both sides much safer).

WWWTT

You know what Sean in Ottawa, every time you complain about the thread tittle, I go back and read it to possibly edit it. But I can’t! After every time I read it I think to myself “yep, we’re good, I’m not changing it!”

Since kropotkin found some kind of fault with it, I really did consider changing it to make it less of a magnet for people to complain about,  if that makes any sense. But if I did, then some punch would be taken away. So sorry, I’m not tinkering with it and we probably spent too much time already debating a thread tittle 

Sean in Ottawa

WWWTT wrote:

You know what Sean in Ottawa, every time you complain about the thread tittle, I go back and read it to possibly edit it. But I can’t! After every time I read it I think to myself “yep, we’re good, I’m not changing it!”

Since kropotkin found some kind of fault with it, I really did consider changing it to make it less of a magnet for people to complain about,  if that makes any sense. But if I did, then some punch would be taken away. So sorry, I’m not tinkering with it and we probably spent too much time already debating a thread tittle 

Huh?

Show me one time that I complained about the thread title!

My point has always been the smear of babblers in the OP.

I have no problem with the issue as it pertains to the media generally. China does not get a bad rap on this site (any negative comment gets responses) and there is no need to attack posters here in any way.

WWWTT

OK sounds like we’re good then. I’m moving on

NDPP

 It is worthwhile to recall there are other China threads including the simple 'China' if one prefers.'The demonization of China' will always be regarded by some here purely as an invitation to do so...

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Seems we do agree on a lot here --

You say this is about perception -- why are you so confident that yours is right and mine is wrong???

I don't think yours is wrong only different than mine. It does not have to be either or.

NDPP

US Defence Secretary Takes Aim At China

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/03/19/usch-m19.html

"In his statement last week to the Senate Armed Services Committee, acting US Defense Secretary Patrick Shanahan identified China as the country's top threat and urged support for a massive $718 billion military budget for the coming year..."

 

Australian Govt Targets China in New 'Foreign Influence' Register

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/03/19/fore-m19.html

"...The US Studies Centre's contract requires it to host a conference this year on 'Indo-Pacific Strategic Futures'. Its aims include to promote 'support for the rules-based order' and 'a commitment to countering malign influence.' These are code words for supporting the US economic and military offensive against China..."

As predicted. Sinophobia is promoted to support US imperialist goals. As always Canadian 'progressives' play their part in the demonization campaign which accompanies this.

WWWTT

Thanks for the link NDPP! Stuff like this coming from Australia in the wake of the New Zealand massacre makes Australia look a haven for white supremacy!!

Pondering

JKR wrote:

Pondering wrote:

JKR wrote:

Why do you think I hate China? On a visit to China a few years ago I thought to myself that I might be happier living in a place like Hong Kong or Guangzhou than in Vancouver.

I think that China is helping the world more than most other countries like the US or Russia. I think China’s belt and road initiative is great for the world. I think China’s reemergence as one of the worlds great civilizations has great potential for the world. By 2100 they might eleven have a greater per capita GDP than Canada.

And they are doing this out of the goodness of their hearts!  

Do Canadians participate in international politics, economics, and culture out of the goodness of our hearts?

No. I thought it was pretty much self-evident that all countries are acting in the self-interest of their corporations and elites including China. 

JKR

Pondering wrote:

JKR wrote:

Pondering wrote:

JKR wrote:

Why do you think I hate China? On a visit to China a few years ago I thought to myself that I might be happier living in a place like Hong Kong or Guangzhou than in Vancouver.

I think that China is helping the world more than most other countries like the US or Russia. I think China’s belt and road initiative is great for the world. I think China’s reemergence as one of the worlds great civilizations has great potential for the world. By 2100 they might even have a greater per capita GDP than Canada!

And they are doing this out of the goodness of their hearts!  

Do Canadians participate in international politics, economics, and culture out of the goodness of our hearts?

No. I thought it was pretty much self-evident that all countries are acting in the self-interest of their corporations and elites including China. 

So why single out and criticize China for something done by all countries?

Pondering

Unionist wrote:

Pondering wrote:

Just because China isn't invading countries doesn't mean they wouldn't if they thought they could get away with it.

Just because you're not assaulting random strangers while walking in the park doesn't mean you wouldn't if you thought you could get away with it.

Sorry, just trying out your logic. It rocks!!

There are many things people will do if they think they can get away with it. Experiments have proven as such and people will admit it directly. 

Canada took indigenous lands because we could get away with it. Russia annexed Crimea because they rightfully figured they could get away with it. If China could get away with taking over Canada they would do it in a heartbeat. So would the US and Russia. 

Whatever aid countries offer to the world is being done to make citizens feel like their country is good while our corporations exploit those very same countries. Venezuala has been economically destroyed so "we" can "help" them. 

So no, I don't think that China is the exception. I think the US keeps them in check. 

Mobo2000

Pondering:  Keeps them in check how, exactly?   And what is China trying to do that justifies the US checking it?   Take over the world?      You are echoing here the "US as global supercop" narrative that has tried to sell US imperialism in our culture for a very long time.

Pondering

Mobo2000 wrote:

Pondering:  Keeps them in check how, exactly?   And what is China trying to do that justifies the US checking it?   Take over the world?      You are echoing here the "US as global supercop" narrative that has tried to sell US imperialism in our culture for a very long time.

Did you not notice the part where I said Canada and the US invade countries?  The US is the global super cop. I would rather not have any super powers in the world capable of destroying the planet but what I want and what is are not the same thing. 

You expect me to believe that China, unlike Canada, wouldn't invade countries?  I don't know a whole lot about history but I don't need to in order to gather that the all poweful abuse their power, always, without exception. 

If the US could get away with it they would annex Canada in a heartbeat. If they run out of water they will take Canada's. They will buy if we sell, but we will not be permitted to refuse. 

China is not an exception to the norms of humanity. If US power magically vanished the void would be filled by China and Russia. They would not be nicer to the world than the US has been. They would not be more peaceful and less greedy. 

PS. I am not demonizing China but I'm not putting a halo on its head either. 

Unionist

Pondering wrote:

You expect me to believe that China, unlike Canada, wouldn't invade countries?

I expect you to believe that China, unlike Canada, doesn't invade other countries. But I'm not holding my breath waiting for that belief to dawn on you.

Pondering wrote:

I don't know a whole lot about history

Darn, you beat me to it yet again.

Pondering wrote:

but I don't need to

... that one took my breath away!!! And here I thought I had developed an immunity

Pondering wrote:

in order to gather that the all poweful abuse their power, always, without exception. 

Ah, oh well, great, so instead of waiting for people to commit crimes, we should just find everyone guilty and toss them in jail, because we know that everyone, given the opportunity, and without the U.S. to police them, will commit crimes.

I have rarely been confronted with such specious and dangerous logic. It's way beneath you, Pondering. Instead of doubling down, as you always always do, try saying this for a change: "I don't know what came over me. I was wrong. Let me reset and start over."

Mobo2000

"China is not an exception to the norms of humanity. If US power magically vanished the void would be filled by China and Russia. They would not be nicer to the world than the US has been. They would not be more peaceful and less greedy."

I agree with your first sentance above, but the next two are speculation and I don't know on what basis you could claim that.  I hope for a more multipolar world, where there is a balance of power among many countries.   Yes, US power must decline for that to happen, and other countries will fill that void.

That Russia and China will rush to "fill the void" and dominate the world in the same way as the US has done the past 60 years , should US power falter, is a (familiar) theory.   It serves to justify what is actually happening is a better result than what may happen in the future.   We should stay in the real world, where the US is actually dominating, and planning to maintain that dominance:

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/03/20/countdown-to-full-spectrum-domin...

"The use of the Army, Navy, and Air Force—the three dimensions of power—means that the US is already close to achieving “full spectrum dominance.” Brown University’s Cost of War project documents current US military involvement in 80 countries—or 40% of the world’s nations. This includes 65 so-called counterterrorism training operations and 40 military bases (though others think the number of bases is much higher). By this measure, “full spectrum dominance” is nearly half way complete. But the map leaves out US and NATO bases, training programs, and operations in Estonia, Latvia, Poland, and Ukraine.

As the US expands its space operations—the fourth dimension of warfare—the race towards “full spectrum dominance” quickens. Space has long been militarized in the sense that the US uses satellites to guide missiles and aircraft. But the new doctrine seeks to weaponize space by, for instance, blurring the boundaries between high-altitude military aircraft and space itself. Today’s space power will be harnessed by the US to ensure dominance over the satellite infrastructure that allows for the modern world of internet, e-commerce, GPS, telecommunications, surveillance, and war-fighting.

Since the 1950s, the United Nations has introduced various treaties to prohibit the militarization and weaponization of space—the most famous being the Outer Space Treaty (1967). These treaties aim to preserve space as a commons for all humanity. The creation of the US Space Force is a blatant violation of the spirit, if not the letter, of those treaties. In more recent decades, successive US governments have unilaterally rejected treaties to reinforce and expand the existing space-for-peace agreements. In 2002, the US withdrew from the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty (1972), allowing it to expand its long-range missile systems. In 2008, China and Russia submitted to the UN Conference on Disarmament the proposed Treaty on the Prevention of the Placement of Weapons in Outer Space, the Threat or Use of Force Against Outer Space Objects. This would have preserved the space-as-a-commons principle and answered US claims that “enemies” would use space as a battleground against US satellites."

 

Mobo again:   Perhaps in some far off future, China will have active military bases in 40% of the world's countries and be spending more than double on their military than their nearest 3 competitors combined.   But until then, why not keep our focus on the country that is the largest barrier to peace (and that we are in an alliance with, and materially supporting), and see what that gets us?

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Mobo2000 wrote:

Mobo again:   Perhaps in some far off future, China will have active military bases in 40% of the world's countries and be spending more than double on their military than their nearest 3 competitors combined.   But until then, why not keep our focus on the country that is the largest barrier to peace (and that we are in an alliance with, and materially supporting), and see what that gets us?

Sounds like a reasonable plan.

Pondering

Unionist wrote:

Ah, oh well, great, so instead of waiting for people to commit crimes, we should just find everyone guilty and toss them in jail, because we know that everyone, given the opportunity, and without the U.S. to police them, will commit crimes.

I have rarely been confronted with such specious and dangerous logic. It's way beneath you, Pondering. Instead of doubling down, as you always always do, try saying this for a change: "I don't know what came over me. I was wrong. Let me reset and start over."

Your rant is bizarre. I have not suggested we do anything to China nor arrest people on speculation. I am just not so naive as to stick a halo on China as a beacon of peace that would never invade another country given the chance. 

I see the US as being responsible for enormous ongoing amounts of carnage throughout the world. The US is in large part responsible for the rise of terrorism. Even so were the US to vanish from the face of the Earth we would not be living in a peaceful paradise. Other powers would take their place. Russia and China would be first up. If you think otherwise I wonder just how much your knowledge of history informs your views. 

I don't always keep with with current events either but I am pretty sure that there has been debate in Europe about stepping up their defences because Trump is threatening not to protect Europe militarily. So yeah, they are acting as global cops. 

I just googled "China invades".

https://globalnews.ca/news/4837941/china-taiwan-invasion-attack/

President Xi Jinping wants to restore China to its former glory – and that means bringing Taiwan under the Communist Party’s control, one way or another.

That was the gist of Xi’s direction-setting New Year’s speech on Jan. 2, when he addressed a packed house at the Great Hall of the People in Beijing. Xi’s speech marked 40 years since China stopped regular artillery bombardment of Taiwan-controlled islands off the Chinese coast. While he spoke at length about peace, he also made it clear that he’s running out of patience for polite politics.

“We are willing to create a vast space for peaceful unification, but we will never leave any room for any sort of Taiwan independence or separatist activities,” Xi said from his seat at the front of the auditorium. He then directly addressed the scope of action China may use to enforce this: “We do not promise to renounce the use of force and reserve the option to use all necessary measures.”

So yes, I believe that given the chance China would invade other countries. I didn't have to read the above to know that because I don't live in a bubble. 

You consider yourself so superior due to greater knowledge of history and current events but it doesn't seem to have helped you to understand the nature of humankind. 

Pondering

Mobo2000 wrote:

 We should stay in the real world, where the US is actually dominating, and planning to maintain that dominance:

I agree but the premise of this thread is to defend China as unfairly maligned and a lovely place to live. 

swallow swallow's picture

China invaded Vietnam in 1979. Like the USA, they were driven back. 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Pondering wrote:

Mobo2000 wrote:

 We should stay in the real world, where the US is actually dominating, and planning to maintain that dominance:

I agree but the premise of this thread is to defend China as unfairly maligned and a lovely place to live. 

Yes the premise is that China is demonized or unfairly maligned, if you prefer. I too prefer to stick with reality no matter what the thread topic. It would appear no one wants to jump down the rabbit hole with you. Your claim is that any country if given power will become as murderous as USA Murder INC is the same as saying that any leader if given power will become Hitler or Stalin or Leopold.

Pondering

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Pondering wrote:

Mobo2000 wrote:

 We should stay in the real world, where the US is actually dominating, and planning to maintain that dominance:

I agree but the premise of this thread is to defend China as unfairly maligned and a lovely place to live. 

Yes the premise is that China is demonized or unfairly maligned, if you prefer. I too prefer to stick with reality no matter what the thread topic. It would appear no one wants to jump down the rabbit hole with you. Your claim is that any country if given power will become as murderous as USA Murder INC is the same as saying that any leader if given power will become Hitler or Stalin or Leopold.

Then it is a good thing I didn't make that claim. I simply said given the chance China would also invade countries. That to me should not be a controversal statement but apparently it is. Google quickly brought up the example of Taiwan so I stand my my statement that given the chance China would invade other countries. 

I did not say I support the US acting as global cop I simply said they do it and it does keep other countries in check to some extent. It seems the best we can hope for is mutually assured destruction to protect us. 

You appear to be taking the position that were it not for the US the world would live in peace and harmony. I may not be a history buff but I am pretty sure there were wars before the US became a country. Germany created the Holocaust and invaded other nations. This is normal human behavior. We have been fighting each other since the earliest tribes. I see no indication that China is an exception. 

WWWTT

swallow wrote:

China invaded Vietnam in 1979. Like the USA, they were driven back. 

You seem to be more proud of the Vietnamese than the Vietnamese government is. Both Communist governments are very silent about the 79 war and related fighting. 

I suspect neither Vietnam nor China are proud of what happened and see that conflict as a failure in diplomacy. 

Also from what I have read of it, both sides had twisted ambitions that both want to forget

WWWTT

@pondering

You mention 台湾 Taiwan 

The Chinese national government and the CPC were enemies. There’s a history there. I’m not so sure that the CPC feels that any government from Taiwan would try to invade the mainland like in the 1950’s, so I suspect the mainlanders invasion plans are somewhat overrated 

Mobo2000

Pondering:  "I did not say I support the US acting as global cop I simply said they do it and it does keep other countries in check to some extent. It seems the best we can hope for is mutually assured destruction to protect us."

You should read some Thomas Hobbes:

"During the time men live without a common power to keep them all in awe, they are in that conditions called war; and such a war, as if of every man, against every man.

"To this war of every man against every man, this also in consequent; that nothing can be unjust. The notions of right and wrong, justice and injustice have there no place. Where there is no common power, there is no law, where no law, no injustice. Force, and fraud, are in war the cardinal virtues.

"No arts; no letters; no society; and which is worst of all, continual fear, and danger of violent death: and the life of man, solitary, poor, nasty, brutish and short."

Mobo:   I'd rather live under a bunch of competing gangsters than one mob boss.  

Pondering

WWWTT wrote:

@pondering

You mention 台湾 Taiwan 

The Chinese national government and the CPC were enemies. There’s a history there. I’m not so sure that the CPC feels that any government from Taiwan would try to invade the mainland like in the 1950’s, so I suspect the mainlanders invasion plans are somewhat overrated 

Perhaps, but are you arguing that China, given the opportunity, would not invade other countries? Because that is all I am saying. I just noticed the Vietnam example in this thread too. My point is not to dissect those examples. 

People who amass political and financial power tend to be confident and aggressive no matter what society they belong to. China is one of the big four, the US, Russia, Europe, and China. 

I get that the US is a war-monguering nation both physically and economically. I'm just not buying the argument that China is a peaceful country or "not the invading type".  From the manner in which they treat their own citizens the character of the leadership suggest to me that they will do whatever they can get away with to amass more power.

Pondering

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/mar/21/kachin-women-from-myanmar-...

Burmese and Chinese authorities are turning a blind eye to a growing trade in women from Myanmar’s Kachin minority, who are taken across the border, sold as wives to Chinese men and raped until they become pregnant, a report claims.....

China is grappling with a severe gender imbalance; the percentage of the population who are women has fallen every year since 1987. Researchers estimate that factors including sex-selective abortion, infanticide and neglect of female babies mean that there are 30 to 40 million “missing women” in China, who should be alive today but aren’t.

I didn't go looking for the above I just stumbled on it. I'm not defending the morals of the Western world but I don't accept the romanticizing of China as a country that has any kind of respect for human rights. 

I am sensing some sort of underlying message that it is wrong to call out China on anything unless we simultaneously point out the crimes of the west. 

voice of the damned

WWWTT wrote:

swallow wrote:

China invaded Vietnam in 1979. Like the USA, they were driven back. 

You seem to be more proud of the Vietnamese than the Vietnamese government is. Both Communist governments are very silent about the 79 war and related fighting. 

I suspect neither Vietnam nor China are proud of what happened and see that conflict as a failure in diplomacy. 

Also from what I have read of it, both sides had twisted ambitions that both want to forget

So, what exactly were the "twisted ambitions" of Vietnam in that conflict which they now want to forget? Do they regret ousting the Khmer Rouge? 

WWWTT

Not exactly sure VOTD? All I know for sure is that the late 70’s war is censored heavily by both sides. 

Probably something to do with Deng Xiao Ping taking power in the CPC, and starting to implement the new openness or opening of China. The Maoist old guard in the PLA. Soviet Union for sure had much to do with it!  At the end of the same year, the USSR send military into Afghanistan  

China wanted to open trade with the US and Europe  And I’m sure there’s lots to the story we’ll never know  

Vietnam also heavily censors their Cambodian occupation  

I suspect that both China and Vietnam were treated as pawns by the Soviet and US, and they don’t like that, they are probably ashamed 

edited to add

My wife’s from Guangxi and she remembers hearing the artillary from the PLA and the Vietnamese in 79 when she was a little kid

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Pondering wrote:

China is grappling with a severe gender imbalance; the percentage of the population who are women has fallen every year since 1987. Researchers estimate that factors including sex-selective abortion, infanticide and neglect of female babies mean that there are 30 to 40 million “missing women” in China, who should be alive today but aren’t.

I didn't go looking for the above I just stumbled on it. I'm not defending the morals of the Western world but I don't accept the romanticizing of China as a country that has any kind of respect for human rights. 

I am sensing some sort of underlying message that it is wrong to call out China on anything unless we simultaneously point out the crimes of the west. 

So you don't believe in the right of Chinese women to chose when to abort a fetus because as a society they do not have any kind of respect for human rights.

What a load of racist drivel, I am disgusted. Of course Canada's missing and murdered indigenous women say nothing at all about our national character.

 

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Kropotkin, Pondering isn’t talking about women choosing to abort. Under the single child policy, many women were forced to abort against their wills. Those who didn’t suffered censure and economic penalties - and those rare second children often were denied the education and health care other children received. 

There Is also the difficulties of children born outside marriage. They are often denied education and health care and are not granted passports. I’ve talked to a woman in this situation who was trying to finance a documentary on her experience. 

No one here is trying to deny reproductive choice to Chinese women. But the PRC has done so with many. There are a lot of Chinese citizens who agree with the single child policy in principle and recognize that population growth was an issue, but it doesn’t remove the reality that the policy was sometimes carried out at the expense of human rights. 

Mad a feminist, I can acknowledge the wrong in this and MMIW simultaneously. 

Pondering

kropotkin1951 wrote:
So you don't believe in the right of Chinese women to chose when to abort a fetus because as a society they do not have any kind of respect for human rights.

What a load of racist drivel, I am disgusted. Of course Canada's missing and murdered indigenous women say nothing at all about our national character.

As Timebandit pointed out I was referring to forced abortions and the killing of female infants after birth that came about as a result of China's one child policy. Decades ago I read about the coming crisis of millions of men without women. 

You skipped this part: 

Burmese and Chinese authorities are turning a blind eye to a growing trade in women from Myanmar’s Kachin minority, who are taken across the border, sold as wives to Chinese men and raped until they become pregnant, a report claims.....

China doesn't seem concerned about the women being kidnapped into China as baby making machines from Myanmar. Apparently you don't think they are significant either. 

Not the missing and murdered women specifically but certainly our overall treatment of indigenous peoples both historically and in the present speaks to the national character of OUR LEADERS and our country and what we as citizens are prepared to tolerate. How could you think otherwise? We are more individually culpable because we live in a democracy. 

Sure the powerful people in Canada bend the rule of law or just change it to their advantage. We have a security law that allows people to be secretly detained without charges but I would much rather be held in Canada than in China. 

Canada, as a country, doesn't respect all human rights for all people but it is a heck of a lot closer than China. That our institutions are flawed doesn't make them as bad as what the Chinese people have to contend with. Certainly not so bad that we don't have the right to be critical of China. 

WWWTT

@kropotkin Pondering and Time Bandit

Sorry kropotkin but TB and Pondering are correct (but there’s a but). 

The one child policy, no longer in existence, there is now a two child policy, was to improve the collective human rights of the Chinese. And it did! But at the expense of individual human rights.  

My family personally knows of a woman who has four children. Three girls and one boy. All adopted orphans that were abandoned. The girls were unwanted for the fact they were female, around the country side of rural Guangxi province. 

The one child policy caused many problems across China and it was even found to have contributed to many mass stabbings by frustrated males who couldn’t find a female partner leading to or contributing to mental health issues (or something like that). 

I will say this, these are issues that are very foreign to many if not the majority of Canadians because Canada does not have the population issues and the many problems caused by overpopulation. Overpopulation in itself causes huge human rights issues and has caused more deaths in China and many other places in the world than what people here on babble are aware  

After all. Every person alive has the exact same rights as any other! Right?

So if in Canada, your lifestyle contributes to 35K metric tons of carbon emissions per year (or whatever the amount may be) shouldn’t people in India Nigeria and China have the same right to the same lifestyles?

This is where the hypocrisy double standards and demonization starts kicking in!

Pondering

The one child policy had nothing to do with respecting human rights. The solution to overpopulation is education and the availability of contraceptives. It was an economic decision based on the good of the wealthy not the poor. To think otherwise is to fall for propaganda. It doesn't matter what country oligarchs are in their motive is never ever altruistic. 

WWWTT wrote:
 So if in Canada, your lifestyle contributes to 35K metric tons of carbon emissions per year (or whatever the amount may be) shouldn’t people in India Nigeria and China have the same right to the same lifestyles?​

We don't have the right to be destroying the Earth. It is imperative that we stop. If India, Nigeria and China do what we did then the Earth is destroyed as a habitat for humanity. The answer is not sending Alberta's bitumen to China to burn so they can help us destroy the Earth faster because that would be more fair. 

P.S. They already have the right to burn fossil fuels at the same rate as everyone else. That doesn't mean we have to help them do it. 

What we should be doing is developing green technologies and sharing the expertise freely for the good of the Earth we all share. Oligarchs are the reason it isn't happening. 

WWWTT

Thanks for proving my point Pondering. Oh and by the way, when you write "we" in the above comment, replace it with "I". Stop asking other people to make sacrifices and do with less so you don't have to!

Mobo2000

Pondering:  "I am sensing some sort of underlying message that it is wrong to call out China on anything unless we simultaneously point out the crimes of the west. "

Pondering if you actually want to understand the underlying message on how to "call out" other countries, read post #8 -  Chomsky's argument is given there.   We are all, at best, concerned outsiders to issues of human rights within China. 

The article from the Guardian posted above is a good example of the western press' campaign of demonization of China.  

"“Myanmar and Chinese authorities are looking away while unscrupulous traffickers are selling Kachin women and girls into captivity and unspeakable abuse,” said Heather Barr, women’s rights co-director at Human Rights Watch."  

"Researchers estimate that factors including sex-selective abortion, infanticide and neglect of female babies mean that there are 30 to 40 million “missing women” in China, who should be alive today but aren’t."   

Huge unsourced, sensationalist claims, by a notoriously unreliable NGO.    They are not speaking to the actions of the Chinese government, they are speculating on it's intentions and motives.   And 30 to 40 million women who should be alive but arent!   How does HRW know China is "looking away" ?     They don't say, but they do give this:

"“When Myanmar authorities did make arrests, they usually targeted only the initial brokers in Myanmar and not the rest of the networks in China,” the report found. “Police in China almost never to our knowledge arrested people that knowingly bought trafficked ‘brides’ and abused them.”

But by all means, lets debate the one child policy, Tibetian independence and the Chinese invasion of Vietnam.   Let's all agree that countries invading other countries is BAD.    And that power corrupts, and authoritarian systems like governments do bad things if unchecked by their citizens or other countries.   

Pondering

WWWTT wrote:

Thanks for proving my point Pondering. Oh and by the way, when you write "we" in the above comment, replace it with "I". Stop asking other people to make sacrifices and do with less so you don't have to!

In which sentence?  I am not asking anyone to make any sacrifices or do with less as if it would do any good. 

I support rapid transition away from fossil fuels and the free sharing of green technology not increased sales of fossil fuels. If I could stop the west from burning fossil fuels I would. It isn't within my power. I can't stop China either. 

I can't change the past. I can't change the fact that the western world advanced through the burning of fossil fuels. I can oppose the western world chasing profit by selling fossil fuels to China. The oil companies aren't doing it out of some false notion of "fairness".  

I think it's bizarre that you think helping China push Earth's climate past the point of no return on climate change is on any level "fair" or a positive thing for the people of China.  Have you seen the smog they deal with? 

So what are you proposing we do? Built Trans Mountain to be fair to the Chinese? 

Pondering

Mobo2000 wrote:
 

Pondering if you actually want to understand the underlying message on how to "call out" other countries, read post #8 -  Chomsky's argument is given there.   We are all, at best, concerned outsiders to issues of human rights within China.   ​

I don't. I think it's a pointless waste of time that accomplishes nothing. I'm just not buying the argument that China respects human rights or respects them more than or as much as Canada. 

Mobo2000 wrote:
 

The article from the Guardian posted above is a good example of the western press' campaign of demonization of China.    ​

The MSM prints whatever will get clicks. That information is unsourced doesn't make it wrong although I agree it doesn't make it right either. 

The US tradewar with China and trying to keep Huawei out so American corporations can supply the new networks might be leading to more negative press on China because they are in the news right now but I don't think that China is being targeted out of racism or that they are being treated more unfairly than anyone else. 

The Chinese press is not better than the Western press. They are currently in the process of demonizing Canada. Is that racist? This is business as usual. It plays into the hands of the powerful to keep activists busy debating the unfairness of it all and condemning the public and the press instead of the actual people pulling the strings. As long as enemies don't have human names they will continue laughing all the way to the bank. 

Mobo2000

Pondering:  Respectfully, I don't think there's any point in discussing this further with you.   

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Pondering if you actually want to understand the underlying message on how to "call out" other countries, read post #8

Would it be inappropriate to simply observe how other countries are "called out" here on babble, and use that as a template?

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