Detention of Meng Wanzhou - CFO of Huawei

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Timebandit Timebandit's picture
NorthReport

Thanks timebandit.

All Canadians would do well to read  "The Claws of the Panda" 

WWWTT

@ North Report And Timebandit

Boring! Considering the numbers, these are probably routine on par within averages. 

Like I said before, if you guys were so concerned about Canadians locked up abroad, then what about the 800 or so Canadians in US jails?

NDPP

Canada's In A Corner On the Meng Wanzhou Case, With No Good Options

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/meng-wanzhou-china-huawei-freeland-1.49...

"So it would be safe to say that it would be unusual for Meng not to be extradited...University of Toronto professor Lynette Ong, a Chinese expert, said Canada is being seen in Beijing as an instrument of the United States. 'From the Chinese perspective, this is a conspiracy,' Ong said in an interview on CBC...It's seen as using economic policy to achieve a foreign policy objective, that objective to contain China's growth.

'We are a country of the rule of law,' Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said Tuesday. 'We're going to make sure that law is always respected. On that point, a sometimes indifferent Trump administration managed to deliver some welcome words of support Monday. 'We are deeply grateful to the government of Canada for its assistance and its steadfast commitment to the rule of law,'  said acting US Attorney General Matthew Whitaker in detailing the charges against Meng. 

No timetable has been set for a decision on Huawei's role in Canada's 5G network. But a rejection there, coupled with Meng's likely extradition, leaves little room for a rapprochment between the two countries or for a speedy release of the two Canadians who were detained shortly after Meng's arrest. The diplomatic relationship is merely fraught now. It could get worse."

It will. It was intended it be so. Henchman Ottawa obeys its master Washington. For King and Empire. Always.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

WWWTT wrote:

@ North Report And Timebandit

Boring! Considering the numbers, these are probably routine on par within averages. 

Like I said before, if you guys were so concerned about Canadians locked up abroad, then what about the 800 or so Canadians in US jails?

You asked, I delivered. We’re not talking about the prisoners in the US in this thread, it’s not relevant. It’s distraction. 

This is not usual, either. I’m beginning to wonder if you’re for real. 

Sean in Ottawa

WWWTT wrote:

@ North Report And Timebandit

Boring! Considering the numbers, these are probably routine on par within averages. 

Like I said before, if you guys were so concerned about Canadians locked up abroad, then what about the 800 or so Canadians in US jails?

Question is there anything you disagree with when it comes to the Chinese government?

Would be nice to see a little list so we know that you are not just an advocate of the CCP no matter what.

NorthReport

This is serious shit and had nothing whatsoever to do with Meng  

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-us-canada-46981048

WWWTT

Timebandit wrote:

WWWTT wrote:

@ North Report And Timebandit

Boring! Considering the numbers, these are probably routine on par within averages. 

Like I said before, if you guys were so concerned about Canadians locked up abroad, then what about the 800 or so Canadians in US jails?

You asked, I delivered. We’re not talking about the prisoners in the US in this thread, it’s not relevant. It’s distraction. 

This is not usual, either. I’m beginning to wonder if you’re for real. 

lol! Nice try. You simply can’t answer or are afraid. 

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

I did answer. You asked me why I’m not going off topic. 

Again, less and less convinced you’re not just trolling. 

NorthReport

‘U.S. versus China’: In Huawei indictments, traces of a broader conflict

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-us-versus-china-in-huawei-...

 

NorthReport

While procedural concerns are common in China, Schellenberg's death sentence is clearly political

https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/schellenberg-case-1.4978748

Sean in Ottawa

NorthReport wrote:

This is serious shit and had nothing whatsoever to do with Ms  Meng  

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-us-canada-46981048

I am not wanting to excuse the excesses of the Chinese government. However, there is some controversy here. On the one hand the Garratt's claim to have done no missionary work and on the other there are things like this:

"In an audio file posted on the website of the Canada-based Terra Nova Church, Kevin Garratt said he ran a prayer and training facility outside Dandong that was frequented by North Koreans, many of whom converted to Christianity before re-entering their isolated country.... “The human aid work — obviously, Christian nature may play into that a bit. But it is not directly a Christian thing that they are doing,” he said. “They are just sending in 100 or 200 tons of oil, or grain and rice, small ovens, things that people can use."

It may be difficult for Christian's to seperate the promotion of their religion from work they consider to be charity. The truly believe that their religion is their most important gift and that they really are saving people.

Promotion of a foreign religion in China is problematic. The Chinese are open about this. The Chinese state is different and their political context is certainly not the same as here but this is not completely impossible to understand. Do a random poll and you will see hostility in Canada to promotion of any religion -- but particularly promotion or even accomodation of religions Canadians see as foreign. In Canada we have a more developped human rights system that restrains opinion from turning into the kind of actions you see in China.

Many Chinese consider religion to be a threat and the state makes this opinion and concern a matter of policy. I am not certain that without the protections we have in Canada that it would be much different here in many respects. Islamaphobia is more popular than people admit and this is despite the vocal position of government against it. If the government supported this opinion and there were no legal freedoms protections, I think many Canadians would welcome the same hostility to religions other than Christianity here.

We do not  have to agree with the limitations on human rights that apparently exist in China to understand a few things:

1) that China is not particularly unsafe to those who do not try to advocate for a religion and who respect drug laws and do not openly challenge the regime. People know about this and going to China with the intent of behaving in a way that is unwelcome there is an avoidable risk.

2) Canada does not entirely welcome this behaviour here -- even if our system is more forgiving, has a different level of concern for these values, and behaves in a way consistent with our values.

3) The seriousness of offences is in many ways a social construct, not a universally portable set of values. Canadians ought not to expect other countries to display identical priorities when it comes to values. One set of values is not superior to another but rather a community expression of a majority opinion that others may not share. All countries may agree on some values and differ on  others. It is a problem when you think your socially constructed values are portable to another society.

4) China has an ongoing internal debate about its set of values. Canada does as well. Interference in this may be worse than unhelpful. The fact that this debate exists in China does not mean they want to adopt wholesale a Canadian perspective.

5) We do not have power on this site and it is our right to hold and express Canadian values when it comes to some of these things. This is not in itself imperialistic. However, supporting enforcement of our values on another is imperialistic. This is an important distinction I think. I have no trouble with one country expressing an opinion about the behaviour of another, however, when it comes to many areas of public life, seeking to force a change crosses the line into imperialism.

In my view, this is true in more than one direction and any country seeking to force this kind of change on another is being imperialistic, even if simply expressing the opinion without seeking or advocating for the power to make a change may not be. When it comes to individuals: believing and expressing something about what is going on in another country may not be imperialistic but advocating that the person's government try to effect that change would be, and so would an argument or presumption that this opinion is universally correct.

 

[href^="https://www.googleadservices.com/pagead/aclk?"]
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WWWTT

Timebandit wrote:

I did answer. You asked me why I’m not going off topic. 

Again, less and less convinced you’re not just trolling. 

So you’re afraid to answer  thanks. 

The fact remains that around 800 Canadians are in US jails because they were charged and or found guilty of crimes in the US. 

Same is happening to Ms Meng, a Chinese national  but with the added extra extradition from Canada. 

I bring up the comparison to expose the hypocrisy of Canadians detained in China. The Canadian corporate media with their political pundit servants are implying that China has no rule of law. And that any Canadian detained in China since December 1 2018 is pretty much a political prisoner and is only in a Chinese jail for holding a Canadian passport. 

Now bugger off lightweight 

Sean in Ottawa

WWWTT wrote:

Timebandit wrote:

I did answer. You asked me why I’m not going off topic. 

Again, less and less convinced you’re not just trolling. 

So you’re afraid to answer  thanks. 

The fact remains that around 800 Canadians are in US jails because they were charged and or found guilty of crimes in the US. 

Same is happening to Ms Meng, a Chinese national  but with the added extra extradition from Canada. 

I bring up the comparison to expose the hypocrisy of Canadians detained in China. The Canadian corporate media with their political pundit servants are implying that China has no rule of law. And that any Canadian detained in China since December 1 2018 is pretty much a political prisoner and is only in a Chinese jail for holding a Canadian passport. 

Now bugger off lightweight 

First of all in all your 4 years on this site perhaps nobody has advised you that saying "bugger off lightweight" to someone who has engaged with you who has been here over 17 years is not going to win you much support.

Timebandit has a good reputation here and is no lightweight. Apart from that, you are a person who avoids difficult questions and opts instead to insult so there is some hypocrisy here. You may not like that I have little patience for games and can be rude to those who I think are playing them, but at least I engage in direct questions put to me and do not avoid or ignore the substance of a discussion.

NorthReport

Perhaps a bit over the top but indeed unfortunate.

Beijing’s aggressive behaviour towards Canada following Meng Wanzhou’s arrest has irreparably damaged China’s reputation in Canada, writes Charles Burton.

 

By Charles Burton, January 21, 2019

The arrest of Huawei CFO Meng Wanzhou at the Vancouver Airport on December 1 has been followed by a series of mutual recriminations between Canada and China. This has led to a shift in the Canadian public opinion from general skepticism about the intentions of the People's Republic of China (PRC) regime to overwhelming hostility toward it.

The upshot is that this has put the brakes on the Trudeau government’s engagement of China. The government had sought to enhance Canada's access to the Chinese market, thereby allowing for diversification of Canada's economy away from its high degree of dependence on Donald Trump's United States. In exchange, Beijing had hoped to remove restrictions of Chinese state investment in Canadian natural resources, restrictions of Chinese state acquisition of Canadian high-tech firms, and an extradition treaty which would allow China to demand the return of PRC nationals who had fled to Canada after falling afoul of China's Communist authorities.

None of these concessions to China would be politically possible now, especially with a general election coming up. Indeed, there is no prospect of rebuilding trust and reconciliation between Canada and China's current regime under President Xi Jinping. And assuaging well-based concerns over the security risk to Canada of Huawei 5G technology is now completely off the table.

A warrant for Ms. Meng's arrest had been issued by the United States in August of last year, so her presence in Vancouver was unexpected in the sense that one would have thought that whoever was authorizing her foreign travel plans would have consulted the list of countries that have extradition treaties with the United States and sent her elsewhere.

Nevertheless, the audacious fervor with which the Chinese regime has sought to pressure the Canadian Prime Minister to intervene in a judicial process and order the immediate return of Ms. Meng to Beijing does prompt a few questions.

First of all, why is Beijing prepared to essentially burn down all its diplomatic relations with Canada in a fruitless attempt to force the return of this single Chinese national? After all, the arbitrary arrest of Michael Kovrig for prolonged brutal interrogation in a "black jail" by agents of the Ministry of State Security is an outrage, especially given China’s evident gross violation of the 1961 Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations by attempting to induce Mr. Kovrig to reveal under duress classified information from his previous capacity as a diplomat employed in the Political Section of the Canadian embassy to China.

The arrest of Michael Spavor is harder to parse. Mr. Spavor, a fluent Korean speaker, is one of the very few foreigners who has established a degree of rapport with the North Korean dictator, Kim Jong-un. Does the PRC regime perceive some sort of Canadian-coordinated deep conspiracy to draw Pyongyang away from China's orbit coordinated by Mr. Spavor? We will all have to wait for Mr. Spavor's forced false confession to be broadcast on Chinese television to know for sure.

Of course, the prospect of Robert Schellenberg being executed should be seen for what it is - a device for Beijing to express displeasure with the Canadian government’s lack of compliance when it comes to China’s demands for Ms. Meng’s release. That fact is utterly repugnant to all decent-minded people.

In the meantime, the China’s ambassador’s disastrous attempts at public diplomacy – from his ridiculous assertion that the Canadian government arrested Ms. Meng for reasons of “white supremacy” (an assertion well outside the bounds of acceptable diplomatic discourse) to his extraordinary meeting with Canadian journalists at the Embassy where Lu Shaye came off both thuggish and pathetic when he threatened retaliation if Huawei was banned – makes one wonder if he is being humiliated on order from Beijing or if the consequences to himself and his career if he fails to bring Meng back to China are the reasons for his increasingly panicky demeanour.

Notably, the Chinese government has now even distanced itself from its own ambassador, with the PRC regime saying that they have no plans to retaliate if Ottawa ultimately bans Huawei from being involved in the 5G network for Canada.

It is remarkable that China does not understand that their intimidating tactics and death threat diplomacy have the opposite effect to what is intended. The more the Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson attempts to diminish Canada’s rallying of our allies to denounce China’s appalling responses to the Meng arrest, the more encouraged we are that this tactic is working in our favour. That no country has taken the Chinese side is very telling.

Meng Wanzhou is likely to be the successor to her father as CEO of Huawei, the world’s largest manufacturer of telecommunications equipment - and touted by Beijing as a “national champion” enterprise. She is therefore a member of China’s Communist Party super-élite. Is the Chinese government’s extreme determination to get her safely home about defending the class privilege of Meng Wanzhou herself? Or is it more about Huawei as a company? The bottom line is that Ms. Meng could face a lifetime in prison if she is extradited to the United States to face multiple serious charges of fraud, each of which carries a sentence of up to 30 years. Under such circumstances, despite the fact that she has family in China, would Ms. Meng seek leniency by providing the US government with information about Huawei's relationship with China's security and intelligence apparatus?

Ultimately, the Chinese ambassador’s threats of dire consequences if Canada follows through on the extradition of Ms. Meng ring hollow. Whether her lawyers are able to successfully argue that she is not eligible for extradition to the US under Canadian law or whether she ends up in court in New York, this unprecedented crisis in Canada-China relations can only be healed once Meng Wanzhou is no longer on Canadian soil. This may be a very long time off.

However it turns out, irreparable damage to China’s reputation in Canada has been done. Any naive assumptions Canadians may have had about the prospects of the Chinese Communist Party coming into compliance with international norms in the years ahead have been thoroughly dashed by the severe mistreatment of Kovrig, Spavor and Schellenberg. China’s future ability to co-opt Canadian policy-makers to support its interests in our country have been seriously debased. Future Canadian engagement with China will be guided by pragmatic calculation alone.

https://www.macdonaldlaurier.ca/meng-wanzhou-future-canada-china-relatio...

Sean in Ottawa

Certainly it could be argued that Trump's poor relationships with much of the world opened a door for China. It can also be argued that China is squandering a significant opportunity to provide alternative leadership. Unfortunately, China's relationships deteriorating with countries such as Canada, may have the effect of nullifying some of the opportunities to create a counterbalance to the US.

I would never say the Sino-Canadian relationship is irreperable but I would say an opportunity is being missed.

I think the Canadian government has mishandled this as well but most of the damage to China here is self-inflicted. For a country like Canada with hostility seemingly coming from every corner, seeing China not take up a better position is unfortunate.

Canada's position is quite dire. I personally learned a lesson many years ago: the people most dangerous to me were those often not acting in their own best interest. I think this is a universal truth. Those who behave in their best interests are more predictable and you can negotiate with them and they can moderate you as well as themselves. Those not acting in their best interests (in Canada's case: the US, Saudi Arabia, China) are most harmful. You cannot reason with those on a path to self destruction, you cannot predict what they will want or do, you cannot get out of the way when they do damage.

China had a big opportunity. While Meng is a big part of their position, she was not worth a battle with Canada that could not be won and where losses can only be the point of competition. Chna can inflict more damage on Canada than the reverse but this cannot be won becuase Canada cannot do what China is asking. It cannot abrogate an extradition treaty with a country with a long undefended border. China's ham-fisted aggression could even damage Meng's case, where as more skillful diplomacy may have left the US looking like the only bad guy. When this goes to a Canadian court, China will either have no effect or one that will create a bias against itself.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

WWWTT wrote:

Timebandit wrote:

I did answer. You asked me why I’m not going off topic. 

Again, less and less convinced you’re not just trolling. 

So you’re afraid to answer  thanks. 

The fact remains that around 800 Canadians are in US jails because they were charged and or found guilty of crimes in the US. 

Same is happening to Ms Meng, a Chinese national  but with the added extra extradition from Canada. 

I bring up the comparison to expose the hypocrisy of Canadians detained in China. The Canadian corporate media with their political pundit servants are implying that China has no rule of law. And that any Canadian detained in China since December 1 2018 is pretty much a political prisoner and is only in a Chinese jail for holding a Canadian passport. 

Now bugger off lightweight 

What would I possibly be "afraid" of?

I would also like to remind you that personal attacks are against the forum's regulations, so get some respect already. I'm not dancing to your tune now or ever. This isn't about prisoners in the US. If you want to talk about that, I invite you to open a thread. Meanwhile, you asked about people being detained either in or passing through China, and I provided what you asked for.

I don't think I'm the lightweight here, if all you have to offer is the party line and some obfuscation.

NDPP

"The Globe and Mail newspaper has been leading the agitation in favour of deepening the new cold war against China. It writes in a January 29 edition, 'Geography has put Canada next to the United States, but that relationship - like Canada's relationship with other democratic and liberal allies in Europe, Asia and around the world - is built on a deeper foundation. Even with the era of Trump, we should not lose sight of who our friends are and where our interests lie.'

The Toronto Star has been less aggressive. But a January 29 editorial nonetheless voices the editors' new cold war ambitions shared with the Globe. The Star editorial concludes, 'We have to be clear-eyes about who we're dealing with. That means, for a start, dialing back expectations about the type of agreements Canada may be able to make with China in the foreseeable future. And it means, almost certainly, joining the majority of countries in the 'Five Eyes' intelligence network in barring Huawei form next-generation telecom networks."]

Former Liberal Party cabinet minister Herb Dhaliwal says US case against Meng Wanzhou is 'nothing more than politics,' says dissatisfaction with Liberal Party government's collaboration  with Trump regime on the case is wide-spread within the party."

As it Happens: Monday-Edition, Jan.28, 2019, Part 1

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/as-it-happens/as-it-happens-monday-edition-1.49...

Above from  rogerannis.com/world-news/

'Beware the Panda's Claws' and Always Grovel to the American Eagle's...

NorthReport

Many people including posters here I would surmise either travel to or through China This is not some little game going on here but serious shit that could possible impact on peoples’ freedoms. Personally I would not recommend travel to China at the present time

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I love the logic on display in our media. On the one hand the Chinese have the most sophisticated surveillance system in the world but they can only locate innocent Canadians to retaliate for the political detention of Meng. I either have to believe in their superior spy incompetence or as a good Canadian I should believe that we have no citizens in China actively engaged in planning for moves towards regime change of a sovereign government. If we do have spies then could it just be possible that some of the people being detained were under surveillance for that very reason?

NorthReport

Surely we have people in China working to prevent money-laundering

WWWTT

For someone who doesn't want to talk about Canadians being detained in a foreign country, you post some real odd links hey?

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

WWWTT wrote:

For someone who doesn't want to talk about Canadians being detained in a foreign country, you post some real odd links hey?

We're talking about detentions in China in this thread, not the US, hey?

If you want to talk about Canadians imprisoned in the US, start a new thread instead of attempting to drift this one.

WWWTT

NorthReport wrote:

Many people including posters here I would surmise either travel to or through China This is not some little game going on here but serious shit that could possible impact on peoples’ freedoms. Personally I would not recommend travel to China at the present time

 

Why is that? You have facts? Because the links I have show that there is almost 5 times the number of Canadians in US jails as compared to Canadians in Chinese jails

https://www.advocatedaily.com/matthew-friedberg-canadians-in-american-ja...

https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2018/12/20/hundreds-of-canadian...

Special not here is the exagerated term that the star uses "hundreds". When they report 200. Pro liberal corporate media.

NorthReport

How many times do you have to be told this thread is not about Canadians in US jails, eh?

China - Exercise a high degree of caution

Exercise a high degree of caution in China due to the risk of arbitrary enforcement of local laws.

https://travel.gc.ca/destinations/china

NorthReport

Canada updates China travel advisory: 'risk of arbitrary enforcement of local laws'

https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/canada-updates-china-travel-advisory-ris...

WWWTT

Timebandit wrote

We're talking about detentions in China in this thread, not the US, hey?

Ya actually you don't know how these forums work. The thread title is about the arrest and extradition of HuaWei exec Ms Meng to the US. You and several other posters keep spewing on about the pro liberal Canadian corporate media trying to imply that China is a corupt country with laws subject to change without notice and implying that since 12/01/2018, China has been on a "arrest any Canadian in China spree"(borderline racism!) and that Canada is some just noble country. If you think you're going to post something here that will not be potentially challenged, you're living in lala land!

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Canadians are imprisoned in jails all over the world.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/a-list-of-canadians-who-ran-into-trouble-a...

There is little doubt that getting arrested in China is a big deal especially if what you are doing has death as a possible sentence.

https://www.immigroup.com/news/worst-places-get-arrested-abroad

 

My sincere wish is that the Chinese authorities treat Canadians better than Canada treats First Nations people.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/first-nations-chief-calls-...

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/thunder-bay/four-years-solitary-1.3821245

 

WWWTT

NorthReport wrote:

How many times do you have to be told this is not about Canadians in US jails, eh?

China - Exercise a high degree of caution

Exercise a high degree of caution in China due to the risk of arbitrary enforcement of local laws.

https://travel.gc.ca/destinations/china

I don't know? I'll guess 5,622 times.

I pulled this piece of shit out of that propaganda Canadian white supremist link you provided:

risk of arbitrary enforcement of local laws

What the fuck does that mean? Now, all of a sudden (apparently because Canada is enforcing a treaty it takes serious) Canadians in China are now subject to the rule of law? Oh but before they weren't?

Canada loves to keep hitting alltime new lows! 

Give yourself a big pat on the back Justin, you made the Canadian government more racist than Harper!

 

Sean in Ottawa

WWWTT wrote:

NorthReport wrote:

Many people including posters here I would surmise either travel to or through China This is not some little game going on here but serious shit that could possible impact on peoples’ freedoms. Personally I would not recommend travel to China at the present time

 

Why is that? You have facts? Because the links I have show that there is almost 5 times the number of Canadians in US jails as compared to Canadians in Chinese jails

https://www.advocatedaily.com/matthew-friedberg-canadians-in-american-ja...

https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/2018/12/20/hundreds-of-canadian...

Special not here is the exagerated term that the star uses "hundreds". When they report 200. Pro liberal corporate media.

Are you in North America? You would think that anyone in North America would concede that more than 5 times the number of Canadians go to the US as the number who go to China. Your point is extremely weak raising the question.

Of course you have been invited to open a new thread to discuss the unfairness of some of the Canadians in US jails -- their drug sentences for example are extreme. But there is no indication that the US jails Canadians at anywhere near the rate China does when you consider the numbers of Canadians visiting each one.

Then again there are comments from China threatening Canadians and linking threats to what is happening with Meng. We did this already on this site with you asking for links and those links being provided.

I have seen no suggestions of arrests in the US being linked to difficulties between the US and Canada. We would all be interested in reading this if there are any.

Still I asked you before -- is there anything the CCP does that you disagree with? It is okay if you want to be loyal and defend the Chinese government down the line as a matter of personal loyalty but people here tend to be a little more independent in their views rather than 100% agreement with anyone or party. This 100% agreement, while it might be nice for some, sort of devalues the agreement when it seems automatic and predictable rather than due to logic. I ask becuase I have seen no daylight between your statements and the official positions of the government of China on a large number of issues. Even diehard Liberals and diehard NDP supporters on this board tend to be a little less loyal and less willing to turn their logic into pretzels to keep protecting their party. Even a Maoist that you claim to be, cannot be always entirely satisfied if they have any independence. Within the Chinese government, which is not fond of dissent, there is more independence than what you display here.

Asking for a friend.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

I have seen no suggestions of arrests in the US being linked to difficulties between the US and Canada.

No you are right this is thread about Canada arresting a Chinese citizen because of  "difficulties" that the US is having with Iran. There is no high ground in this dispute the US has dragged everyone into the gutter with them.

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

I have seen no suggestions of arrests in the US being linked to difficulties between the US and Canada.

No you are right this is thread about Canada arresting a Chinese citizen because of  "difficulties" that the US is having with Iran. There is no high ground in this dispute the US has dragged everyone into the gutter with them.

You make an important point here that many miss. Often this is set up as Caanda being caught between the US and China but in some respects this is about Canada and China caught between the US and Iran.

One issue, however, is that the US is waging two battles one with China and one with Iran. With China it is a fight for supremacy in technology as much as anything else (as well as trade). Therefore, this fight is not only with Iran and China caught but between the US and both Iran and China with Canada caught.

Then there is the question of whether this is the US or Trump. Given the personal dealings in China and Saudi Arabia and leverage Trump wants, it may be as much of a Trump conflict as a US one -- although as he is the US President, it is US responsibility to address who their leader is.

I say all this becuase I think that this is partly Trump's fights along with a fight with China to keep China in its place (imperialism) so it does not threaten the position of US technology.

Often with these things there are multiple undercurrents. It seems clear that there are no Canadian interests in wanting any of this.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

WWWTT wrote:

Timebandit wrote

We're talking about detentions in China in this thread, not the US, hey?

Ya actually you don't know how these forums work. The thread title is about the arrest and extradition of HuaWei exec Ms Meng to the US. You and several other posters keep spewing on about the pro liberal Canadian corporate media trying to imply that China is a corupt country with laws subject to change without notice and implying that since 12/01/2018, China has been on a "arrest any Canadian in China spree"(borderline racism!) and that Canada is some just noble country. If you think you're going to post something here that will not be potentially challenged, you're living in lala land!

Over 17 years of posting on babble, I don't know how the forum works? Give it a rest.

China has always been prone to arbitrary detentions and has a sketchy human rights record. Since Xi became leader, things have been a lot tighter than they have been - it's not necessarily changes in law but in the way the law is interpreted and enforced.

They aren't the only country that is problematic, but they're the country we're discussing in this thread. You're just obfuscating.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

However this thread is about the US asking for the arbitrary detention of a Chinese citizen while they were on Canadian soil.  Given that they are the assholes that started this mess of course they get to be a comparison on every level.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Yes and no. WWWTT is pulling in a stat without reference - total number of Canadians incarcerated in the US, I'm guessing? - and comparing it to a limited number of detentions without apparent cause of Canadians. Best case scenario, this is apples to oranges.

Now, if he had stats on Canadians detained in US without being given a reason, or Canadians detained transiting through the US, there might - and even then only might - be some point to be made. As it stands, it's simple obfuscation.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Obfuscation on babble. OMG tell me its not true?

I too find the reporting to be very biased and dismissive of the whole Chinese government. This whole thing is about the US's decades long campaign to once again effect regime change in Iran. I believe that China is no different than the majority of countries in respect of its treatment of "dissidents."  The reason why it bothers us when "human rights" activists are arrested is because they are promoting a change to our imperial law based system and we think it is superior to the Chinese socialist law based system. In Canada we arrest people on security warrants for meeting with suspected Islamic regime change promoters. The openness and transparency of the court proceedings given to someone who meets with Iranian spies in Canada would be exactly the same as in China when some one meets with Five Eyes operatives.

The MSM in North America hasn't got a clue who is being arrested so instead merely smears the whole Chinese legal system. As a Canadian I know how little justice there is for indigenous people in this country so I gag at the over the top characterizations of other countries legal systems. 

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Okay, do we arrest artists we don't like and journalists as "dissidents"? Does the US?

It's always been the case that you need to tread carefully in China. I've observed - and have had others observe as well - that one must currently be even more cautious. And while I agree that we wouldn't pass any purity tests, I think there's an important difference.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

It happens by degrees in many places. The US does not incarcerate by political views it incarcerates by race so I guess that means I should like its system better. Countries like China are indeed paranoid of dissent and excessive in their vigilance but like the old saw says just because you're paranoid doesn't mean the Five Eyes aren't actively engaged in regime change planning.

NDPP

In Canada our msm journalists are by and large self-silencing and/or stupid/cowardly. Good gigs are hard to come by and so there are few infractions of the 'rules' or deviation from permissible narratives. Go along to get along is the norm. But I personally know of professors, journalists, filmakers and lawyers who have been given the chop and effectively silenced for pushing the envelope and not going along. In my experience, especially among those groups mentioned, brown-nosing and servility is a well practiced art. Those who question power are soon replaced by those that collaborate. It's a national syndrome I've noticed intensifying for many years. Highly subservient to domineering power and not terrible given to independent thought or rebellion - consistent with the unremarkable intellectual backwater it is. A Haida friend calls it a typical 'colonialist mindset'. Dumb and docile but pretentious and mean if exposed.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

@Kropotkin: Well, let's not ignore the Uighurs. So we can't say that the Chinese system is much, if any, better there than the US on that score, either.

I'm just having a little trouble with the idea that the "US is bad therefore everyone else is just fine" logic at play here. And, IMO, degrees matter.

As I said upthread, I've been to and sent crews to a lot of countries and have not seen the levels of control and scrutiny that China employs anywhere else. And it's increased recently.

 

Noops

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

I have seen no suggestions of arrests in the US being linked to difficulties between the US and Canada.

No you are right this is thread about Canada arresting a Chinese citizen because of  "difficulties" that the US is having with Iran. There is no high ground in this dispute the US has dragged everyone into the gutter with them.

I don't propose we do so, but it sure would be fun to discuss the reasons why the U.S. is having "difficulties" with Iran.

Noops

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Obfuscation on babble. OMG tell me its not true?

I too find the reporting to be very biased and dismissive of the whole Chinese government. This whole thing is about the US's decades long campaign to once again effect regime change in Iran. I believe that China is no different than the majority of countries in respect of its treatment of "dissidents."  The reason why it bothers us when "human rights" activists are arrested is because they are promoting a change to our imperial law based system and we think it is superior to the Chinese socialist law based system...

There is a directness, clarity, focus and richness to your posts K that I find so refreshing and inspiring!
You state your case with little fuss or bother and usually get right to the crux of the matter.

montgomery

Timebandit wrote:

 

I'm just having a little trouble with the idea that the "US is bad therefore everyone else is just fine" logic at play here. And, IMO, degrees matter.

 

 

Nobody is saying everybody else is just fine. That is yours alone to entertain.

But the US is bad and it's worse than any other country with the capacity to slaughter millions. It's track record of 40 wars of aggression since WW2 speaks loudly for that fact. No other country in the world comes even close to the US for it's criminal record throughout the world. And NO none of those wars were to prevent the dominoes from tumbling. (assuming you understand the rhetoric)

If we taught all NDP'ers that, we would be making a lot of progress.

And don't try the usual by telling me I'm off topic. You and Kropotkin took it off-topic.

WWWTT

Hi Noops, we were having that discussion (sort of), but there’s a couple posters here that really despise China and/or the CPC and feel (I suspect) that it’s better to accept American imperialism than give credit to China for effectively nullifying the illegal US sanctions that the US is famous for!

This line of thinking borders on racism. Along the lines that “I’m white, so I’ll stick with the other predominantly white nations, and really, I’m suspicious of someone who doesn’t appear like me” type of racism. 

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Who despises China?

Theres a difference between hating a country and being realistic about its political landscape and actions. 

montgomery

WWWTT wrote:

Hi Noops, we were having that discussion (sort of), but there’s a couple posters here that really despise China and/or the CPC and feel (I suspect) that it’s better to accept American imperialism than give credit to China for effectively nullifying the illegal US sanctions that the US is famous for!

This line of thinking borders on racism. Along the lines that “I’m white, so I’ll stick with the other predominantly white nations, and really, I’m suspicious of someone who doesn’t appear like me” type of racism. 

Don't move too fast to play the racism card. Russians are as pure white as the majority of us are. The US is playing the same game against China as they played against the Soviet Union and then the Russians, and for the same reasons.

They're both large nuclear power competitors which the US won't tolerate.

When you have to play the race card, I'll be one of the first to join you, if it's legitimate.

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