Easy to be pro-China here. Enough already!

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WWWTT

Red Winnipeg wrote:

WWWTT wrote:

If the majority of people are workers and common folk, then why have any democracy? Big waste of time and very illogical.

That assumes that “workers and common folk” all think the same way and all have the same interests and desires.

Oh ya sorry that's right. I forgot all about those in the working class that want to work for their employers for nothing and don't mind living on the edge of poverty! Thanks for reminding me!

WWWTT

Left Turn wrote:

Krop has chosen not to answer your question, but I have no qualms about saying that I consider Cuba the best country on the planet. Not by your criteria, but by my own. Namely, that everyone in Cuba has the basics of food, water, and shelter (there are no starving homeless people in Cuba); and that Cuba is the one country not contributing to the climate crisis through massive ghg emissions.

Also a Communist country. However, only around 10 million people and without the massive pain and burdens that the Chinese had to endure. But not to take away from the suffering of the Cubans.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Red Winnipeg wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

BTW, would you please do the decent thing and change your posting name?  You obviously hate everything the socialist tradition of Winnipeg ever represented and want to see anything similar to it crushed and replaced by a society even more greed-based than the one we have now, so it's pretty much a lie for you to call yourself "Red Winnipeg".

Red hair, my friend.

Yeah, right.  

NDPP

'Be Hong Kong'

https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/1171513675838033920

"Be Hong Kong - Ranked #3 in the global Human Freedom Index - Ask #17 (US) to improve your freedom - Strive for a 'great result' of revolution like #118 (Ukraine) - ??? - Freedom?"

Or Propaganda, Subversion and Stupidity? 

WWWTT

NDPP wrote:

'Be Hong Kong'

https://twitter.com/RT_com/status/1171513675838033920

"Be Hong Kong - Ranked #3 in the global Human Freedom Index - Ask #17 (US) to improve your freedom - Strive for a 'great result' of revolution like #118 (Ukraine) - ??? - Freedom?"

Or Propaganda, Subversion and Stupidity? 

What a load of stupid bullshit " global human freedom index" Don't buy into these ridiculously idiotic biased agenda driven so called study research rankings! 

Click on these links

https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/education-community/article/2089939/...

https://www.scmp.com/comment/letters/article/3023755/behind-hong-kong-pr...

https://borgenproject.org/top-10-facts-about-poverty-in-hong-kong/

Living in poverty and just above it is SLAVERY! How the fuck can a region like Hong Kong with so many people living in this post modern slavery (if someone can come up with a better term lets here it!) be ranked #3 in some kind of freedom index?!?!?!?!??!

Total shit! And on top all of that, the Hong Kong protestors are furious about an extradition bill effecting only alleged criminals according to the imperialist corporate media. But for some fucking bizzare reason, the people are OK with being slaves, living in a toilet/closet/pantry, and paying 70% of their earnings on rent!

 

Red Winnipeg

WWWTT wrote:

First off, ya who gives a ratts ass about elections? Don't bother repeating that one again with me.

How else is the will of the people expressed? If you don’t care about free and fair elections, then you are on the side of autocrats, not the people.

Red Winnipeg

WWWTT wrote:

Oh ya sorry that's right. I forgot all about those in the working class that want to work for their employers for nothing and don't mind living on the edge of poverty! Thanks for reminding me!

Caricature.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Red Winnipeg wrote:

WWWTT wrote:

First off, ya who gives a ratts ass about elections? Don't bother repeating that one again with me.

How else is the will of the people expressed? If you don’t care about free and fair elections, then you are on the side of autocrats, not the people.

Caricature. The problem seems to be definitions of things like free and fair. I think that China's elections are freer and fairer and lead to better outcomes for more people than the US elections which are bought and paid for and return great dividends to the oligarchs that control the duopoly.

Red Winnipeg

kropotkin1951 wrote:

The problem seems to be definitions of things like free and fair.

“It depends on what the definition of ‘is’ is.” — You sounds like Bill Clinton.

What is not a “free and fair” election is one where only one party rules. You have all of the choice you want — as long as you vote for the only option you have. Sounds like Henry Ford (“You can have any color [of Ford car you want] as long as it’s black”).

Red Winnipeg

kropotkin1951 wrote:

“...better outcomes for more people than the US elections...”

I agree that the US would be better served by a parliamentary system with more parties that just two. China? It has one party.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Red Winnipeg wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

“...better outcomes for more people than the US elections...”

I agree that the US would be better served by a parliamentary system with more parties that just two. China? It has one party.

That is your myopia.

Our political parties all vie to rule within the framework of the Constitution of Canada that was designed for us to fit into the British imperial system.  The system was designed so that the Crown is the one Head of State and it is Her Government and Her Loyal Opposition that rule on her behalf in the peoples name. The Canadian Oath of Allegiance is a promise or declaration of fealty to the Canadian monarch, as personification of the Canadian state that all Cabinet Ministers must take. We live under a unitary system. That parliamentary system has been degraded into a bastardized Presidential system where we elect majority governments based on the Leader's qualities instead of electing MP's that represent ones local interests. Once elected governments have absolutely no fetters on them for four years even though  they almost never represent the majority of the voters.

China on paper does allow other parties to run in local elections. They are the equivalent of the Marxist Leninist party here. Undoubtedly running for those kinds of parties, that have fundamental political system change as the core belief, makes you the subject matter for the internal spy agencies of your respective countries and no one takes you seriously because they are not interested in regime change.

I see a lot of political systems but I see very few that meet my test of a democracy because in the end no matter what country you live in it has a ruling elite that govern under a set of rules designed to enhance their power and influence. I also do not think that a country can be a democracy if it is part of an imperial based system because an empire's center almost always gets what it wants and always gets more than its share, therefore all citizens are not created equally or treated fairly.

If you want political power at the national level in Canada you join either the Liberal or Conservative party and you get vetted and if they deem you ideologically suitable you will get to vie for one of the 388 MP seats. In China if you want political power you join the CPC and get vetted and if they deem you ideologically suitable you will get to vie for one of the 2987 Deputy seats. A Deputy in China has every bit as much power as a backbench MP in Canada, i.e. little to none, unless they suck up to the bigger fish in the pond.

Having looked at political systems from a theoretical perspective for over 40 years I have come to the conclusion that form says little about how well a state does in achieving positive outcomes for its people that line up with the desires of the majority. In China I think the majority of the people like the fact that in one generation their system of government has allowed them to become a prosperous nation on the brink of greatness after having endured and overcome the colonial rule of the European democracies..

WWWTT

Red Winnipeg wrote:

WWWTT wrote:

First off, ya who gives a ratts ass about elections? Don't bother repeating that one again with me.

How else is the will of the people expressed? If you don’t care about free and fair elections, then you are on the side of autocrats, not the people.

By picking up a telephone and calling them?  Or how about arranging an appointment? Email? There's a word for this. Maybe you heard of it? It's called "communication" We're actually doing it right now for fucks sakes!

As far as the second part of your comment goes, more bullshit! The Chinese Communist party has it's own rules and oversight to deal with corruption. This is common knowledge, but for some reason, you seem to believe I'm ignorant, your ignorant or you're full of shit? I believe it's a combination of all three, but honestly I can't be to sure?

WWWTT

Red Winnipeg wrote:

WWWTT wrote:

Oh ya sorry that's right. I forgot all about those in the working class that want to work for their employers for nothing and don't mind living on the edge of poverty! Thanks for reminding me!

Caricature.


 

Caricature? What are you talking about? A picture? Ya I don't get it. Please explain but I suspect it's some kind of lame ass sorry debate tactic.

WWWTT

Red Winnipeg wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

“...better outcomes for more people than the US elections...”

I agree that the US would be better served by a parliamentary system with more parties that just two. China? It has one party.

NDP- no difference party

greens- green in name only, we'll support the conservatives

Same bullshit different pile. Is that what's better? More piles of shit?

NDPP

Yes.  Illusion is everything. Without it denial becomes unsustainable.

Rikardo

It looks to me that the last governor of HK tried to turn the colony into a little Western Democracy to leave it as a Trojan Horse for the Chinese government. I'm finally reading  John Paton Davies's classic "Dragon By the Tail" .  China with Confucius, Mao, Deng and now Xi, 3000+ years, can organize itself without Western Know-All Do-Gooders.

NorthReport
NDPP

WATCH: "HK protesters wave USA National Flags, sing USA National Athem. Also holding Trump 2020 campaign banners."

https://twitter.com/liamstone_19/status/1173664416954339328

No surprise so many here in America's good doggy vassal Canada should support this.

 

Filipina Maids on HK Protests

https://t.co/qjrzNETSxB

"To talk to them about the protests amounts to a PhD on class struggle: 'It's we who should have the right to protest about our meager wages and the kind of disgusting treatment we get from these Cantonese madames,' says a mother of 3 from Luzan (70% of her pay goes for remittances home). 'These kids, they are so spoiled, they are raised thinking they are little kings."

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

NDPP wrote:

WATCH: "HK protesters wave USA National Flags, sing USA National Athem. Also holding Trump 2020 campaign banners."

https://twitter.com/liamstone_19/status/1173664416954339328

No surprise so many here in America's good doggy vassal Canada should support this.

 

Filipina Maids on HK Protests

https://t.co/qjrzNETSxB

"To talk to them about the protests amounts to a PhD on class struggle: 'It's we who should have the right to protest about our meager wages and the kind of disgusting treatment we get from these Cantonese madames,' says a mother of 3 from Luzan (70% of her pay goes for remittances home). 'These kids, they are so spoiled, they are raised thinking they are little kings."

Agreed that the Filipina maids are dumped on by the HK elite-Filipina guest workers are one of the most exploited groups of working people anywhere on the planet.  Pretty sure the pro-Beijing wing of the HK ruling class treats Filipina maids as badly or worse-not meaning to do whattaboutism on that, but simply to point out that we can't assume that those in the protests-which clearly are a vastly mixed group of people, some of whom probably were sent there by Trump to cause trouble-are more elite than the pro-Beijing wing of HK society.

WWWTT

Ken Burch wrote:

Agreed that the Filipina maids are dumped on by the HK elite-Filipina guest workers are one of the most exploited groups of working people anywhere on the planet.  Pretty sure the pro-Beijing wing of the HK ruling class treats Filipina maids as badly or worse-not meaning to do whattaboutism on that, but simply to point out that we can't assume that those in the protests-which clearly are a vastly mixed group of people, some of whom probably were sent there by Trump to cause trouble-are more elite than the pro-Beijing wing of HK society.

What makes you think the pro Communists in Hong Kong are anything elites?

Nice try in making a blatantly false impression. It's because of these false hints that you make I doubt everything you write about China/Communism.

I have gotten to know Chinese immigrants to Hong Kong (pro Beijing as you put it) and they are not elites.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

WWWTT wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

Agreed that the Filipina maids are dumped on by the HK elite-Filipina guest workers are one of the most exploited groups of working people anywhere on the planet.  Pretty sure the pro-Beijing wing of the HK ruling class treats the Filipina guest workers they exploit just as badly as the pro-Western faction does-not meaning to do whattaboutism on that, but simply to point out that we can't assume that those in the protests-which clearly are a vastly mixed group of people, some of whom probably were sent there by Trump to cause trouble-are more elite than the pro-Beijing wing of HK society.

What makes you think the pro Communists in Hong Kong are anything elites?

Nice try in making a blatantly false impression. It's because of these false hints that you make I doubt everything you write about China/Communism.

I have gotten to know Chinese immigrants to Hong Kong (pro Beijing as you put it) and they are not elites.

OK, I didn't say ALL "pro-Communist" people in HK were elites.  What I said was that a large SEGMENT of the pro-PRC faction in HK are a large component of the ruling class there.

This is consistent with the fact that the Party in the PRC has had millionaires and even billionaires as members for years.  This is simple fact.

And I agree that HK needs a clear break with Milton Friedman capitalism-but that break could be made using libertarian socialist methods, creating worker co-ops.  It doesn't have to mean having the place eventually be run exactly as the PRC is run...and for that matter, the PRC doesn't actually need an authoritarian structure to build communism.  It's about giving the urban and rural workers control of the workplace; it doesn't have to be about undemocratic planning from above.

There have been some very good things done for the people under PRC leadership; now, it's time to move on from the whole thing having to be about the leading role of the Party.

And I say that knowing I'm not the one who's going to be making decisions for the people of China, that I'm just one working-class guy saying some things.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

We simpy have different views on how to build a socialist future-you are ok with authoritarian models, I'm anti-authoritarian and pro-worker control.  You have no reason to keep acting as though I'm a closet imperialist or something.  

 

WWWTT

I'd say you're anti Communist. Right?

voice of the damned

WWWTT wrote:

I'd say you're anti Communist. Right?

Ken can answer any way he wants, but I would like to ask you what "Communist" means in that question.

WWWTT

Ya then just let Ken Burch answer the question! 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Ken Burch wrote:

 

Agreed that the Filipina maids are dumped on by the HK elite-Filipina guest workers are one of the most exploited groups of working people anywhere on the planet.  Pretty sure the pro-Beijing wing of the HK ruling class treats Filipina maids as badly or worse

Please give me some citation for this belief you have that pro-Chinese government people in Hong Kong treat maids as bad or worse. Why would you say such a thing? No wonder WWWTT keeps getting pissed at shit you write. We get that you think you have better answers on how to rule a few billion people without falling into chaos however that doesn't give you any right to claim that people who support the current system are actually as bad or worse than one of the most exploitative capitalist classes on the planet.

swallow swallow's picture

It's recognized by anyone who knows anything about Hong Kong that the wealthy elites and super-wealthy businessmen who control the city are pro-CCP. 

Filipina (and Indonesian) maids are exploited by everyone, regardless of whether they are pro-CCP or anti. Surely that's not a controversial point? 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

swallow wrote:

Filipina (and Indonesian) maids are exploited by everyone, regardless of whether they are pro-CCP or anti. Surely that's not a controversial point? 

No that is not controversial. In fact as a human rights lawyer I dealt with a couple of cases of exploited maids in Vancouver. I have never been to Hong Kong but in Richmond the people that we sold passports to in the 1990's were opportunistic business people who back in the day were mostly sweatshop owners trying to flee with the money they made off the backs of the workers. I am sure they would by now be toadying up to the CPC. WTF is it that says that those people are at least as good or better than people who support a communist alternative because Ken did not say a neutral statement he said that pro-Western capitalists in Hong Kong cannot be more exploitative that pro-CPC capitalists or officials. Personally I just call that bias because it cannot be based on actual facts. First off we would have to determine who has maids and what their political believes are and how badly they treat the hired help. I doubt if that data base exists so to say that one group is at least as bad or worse than others is bias based on nothing.

swallow swallow's picture

Yes. Both "sides" treat domestic workers badly. 

In her sworn statement and report to the Hong Kong police, Uychiat attested that she was regularly beaten by her employer, deprived of her days off, was made to sleep in the kitchen, and was made to work from 6:00am to 4:00am everyday for nine months. She also said that she was prohibited to leave the house without being accompanied by her employer, and that her passport was confiscated from her by her agency. Her employer also repeatedly refused to hand her her Hong Kong identity card.

https://migranteinternational.org/2014/05/08/there-was-no-month-that-i-was-not-being-beaten-by-my-employer-abused-pinay-domestic-worker-in-hong-kong-seeks-justice/

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

WWWTT wrote:

I'd say you're anti Communist. Right?

Wrong.  I'm not a Cold Warrior.  It's true I'm a critic, from a left perspective "Large-C 'Communism'"-but I'm neither a conservative nor a capitalist nor an imperialist.   I support things like libertarian socialism and small-c communism, where the decision-making power is held by the workers, not any particular party.  I don't want the Chinese government overthrown and replaced by capitalism, either-mainly I want to see it move away, as I want to see all states throughout the world move away, from the paranoid "internal security" mindset.

What the "actually existing socialism" model the USSR and later the Warsaw Pact countries taught, as a lot of us see it, is that socialism can't take root if imposed punitively and from above, if imposed on the assumptions that A) the workers can't be trusted with actual control of the workplace, with freedom of speech or with freedom of assembly; b)artists are forced to make their art conform to a "line"; or c) all dissent and all protest is "counterrevolutionary".

What happened in 1989 occurred not because the East European/Warsaw Pact states had become too lax, but because they didn't abandon repression until they were on the verge of being overthrown.  There was, by then, no non-barbaric means, no means short of filling the  streets of Prague, East Berlin, Budapest or Warsaw with the blood of nonviolent protesters to have kept those regimes in power, and no socialist good would have come of keeping those regimes alive by such means.  Gorbachev let those regimes fall, I think, because he realized that none of the values of socialism could survive once supposedly socialist states ordered their armies to slaughter civilians-that a socialist society can only be created by a state or other governing body that is always committed to acting in accord with humane values. 

Because Stalin, Krushchev and Brezhnev had not allowed the Warsaw Pact states to create humane, non-oppressive socialist models, because there was no chance that those regimes would ever use the term "socialism" as anything other than a euphemism for stifling, punitive conformity, it is my conviction that those regimes-regimes in which actual socialist values had never really existed-had to fall when they did.  It would have been nothing but illegitmate to keep them in power by killing people in the streets by the thousands, or perhaps the tens of thousands or the hundreds of thousands.  

The leaders of the PRC took no lessons from that other than the wrong lesson...the lesson that "the leading role of the Party" is worth killing a country's civilian population to maintain.  They basically thought Gorbachev should have out-Stalined Stalin.  

I don't want the sham the West calls "representative democracy".  I want economic democracy and workplace democracy.

I'm against any regime anywhere repressing dissent, because as I see it, a society is only alive if dissent and discussion is part of that society.And what I've criticized in the PRC I equally oppose anywhere else.  

You think socialism requires a ruling Party.  I think socialism requires the people, everywhere, too be free FROM rulers.

I'm not your enemy and I don't want the 1949 Revolution reversed-I want it completed, with the creation of a fully egalitarian society free from fear.

And I also want the West to leave China the hell alone, as I want the West to leave Africa, Latin America, the world's indigenous peoples and the world's poor the hell alone.

None of that equates to a wish for counterrevolution or the triumph of global capitalism.  

And I'm just one left-wing guy on a left-wing message board, so there's no possible way I can be a threat to the survival of the PRC, even if I wanted to be.  OK?

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

swallow wrote:

Filipina (and Indonesian) maids are exploited by everyone, regardless of whether they are pro-CCP or anti. Surely that's not a controversial point? 

No that is not controversial. In fact as a human rights lawyer I dealt with a couple of cases of exploited maids in Vancouver. I have never been to Hong Kong but in Richmond the people that we sold passports to in the 1990's were opportunistic business people who back in the day were mostly sweatshop owners trying to flee with the money they made off the backs of the workers. I am sure they would by now be toadying up to the CPC. WTF is it that says that those people are at least as good or better than people who support a communist alternative because Ken did not say a neutral statement he said that pro-Western capitalists in Hong Kong cannot be more exploitative that pro-CPC capitalists or officials. Personally I just call that bias because it cannot be based on actual facts. First off we would have to determine who has maids and what their political believes are and how badly they treat the hired help. I doubt if that data base exists so to say that one group is at least as bad or worse than others is bias based on nothing.

To clarify, I did not mean to say that pro-Western capitalists in HK are inherentlt incapable of being more exploitative of workers than those wealthy capitalists in HK who ally themselves with the PRC-that would be a deeply stupid statement.  I simply said that exploitation of Filipina guest workers in Beijing is not the exclusive preserve of those who ally with "The West".   

Rich people in HK, whoever they support in the HK vs PRC dispute, are known for treating Pinay guest workers like shit-as are rich people who enslave Pinay guest workers everywhere else.  I deleted the "or worse" part, because it took my comments to a place I did not mean to take them, and apologize for those particular two words.  I was simply trying to say that rich exploiters act like rich exploiters.  I could have phrased what I wrote differently and accept your critique as valid.

WWWTT

swallow wrote:

It's recognized by anyone who knows anything about Hong Kong that the wealthy elites and super-wealthy businessmen who control the city are pro-CCP. 

Filipina (and Indonesian) maids are exploited by everyone, regardless of whether they are pro-CCP or anti. Surely that's not a controversial point? 

Ok I did some more research and see where you and Ken Burch are coming from.

Pro Beijing is no longer part of the pro Communist movement in Hong Kong.

Also, the Hong Kong media includes many Chinese immigrants to Hong Kong as pro-Beijing camp. 

I only know people from Guangxi who have moved to Hong Kong. But apparently there's also many from Fujin

Regardless, kropotkin is right, there's no evidence to be making such claims of who's abusing migrating workers.

NorthReport

Affluent people abuse their workers because they can. Where are the labour unions in China that could protect workers from such abuse?

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

NorthReport wrote:

Affluent people abuse their workers because they can. Where are the labour unions in China that could protect workers from such abuse?

The same place they are in Canada, in a different sector of the economy. No unions in Canada are trying to organize our abused foreign domestic workers because they all work for different employers, no different in China.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

NorthReport wrote:

Affluent people abuse their workers because they can. Where are the labour unions in China that could protect workers from such abuse?

The same place they are in Canada, in a different sector of the economy. No unions in Canada are trying to organize our abused foreign domestic workers because they all work for different employers, no different in China.

Does Canada have the same situation as the US, in which domestic workers(and farm labourers) are not covered by federal or provincial labour law?

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

In Canada our employment standards laws are provincial except when the employment is a federally regulated business but foreign workers are covered by federal law. Here is an article from 5 years ago that sets out the dismal state of enforcement in Canada.

swallow swallow's picture

We Work To

 

  • Promote migrants’ rights and dignity against all forms of discrimination, exploitation and abuse in the work place and in the community and resist all anti-migrant policies
     

  • Assert the right to organize
     

  • Strengthen unity among migrant and immigrant Filipinos and rally their families and advocates towards the upholding of migrants’ rights for jobs, fair wages and recognition
     

  • Along with the national democratic organizations in the Philippines, we participate in pushing for the building of a self-reliant economy to stop forced migration, promote social equity and justice and unite with other sectors of society for the advancement of national development and democracy with compatriots in the Philippines
     

  • Build solidarity with migrant organizations of other nationalities and peoples who are against the plunder of economies, destruction of the environment and wars of aggression that cause widespread poverty and injustice

http://www.migrante.ca/

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