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Gaza and Israel IX

Michelle
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Joined: May 10 2001

Continued from here.

I'll start this one off with a hilarious Israeli video satirizing pro-Israeli arguments for the Gaza massacre.

Click here for video


Comments

Frustrated Mess
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Joined: Feb 23 2005

Quote:

"Why did they fire rockets? There was no siege against Gaza," Peres said, his voice rising in emotion. "Why did they fight us, what did they want? There was never a day of starvation in Gaza."

So, help me out here. Did Perez tell a bald faced, glaringly obvious lie in front of the whole world, or is the Israeli leadership so far removed from human reality they actually believe themselves?




Slumberjack
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Joined: Aug 8 2005

It was a bald faced, glaringly obvious lie.  They certainly are removed from human reality, and if they do believe themselves, then we're getting into the pathological.


Hoodeet
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Joined: Dec 8 2008

Today Israel announced it will continue its attacks on Gaza.

Is this a continuation of the Israeli political campaign?  A continuation of Peres's snit at Davos?  A challenge to Obama and Mitchell?

What the hell is wrong with them?

 Is the Samson option the next thing up their sleeve if Obama doesn't cave or if the Palestinians manage to unite?

 As for Davos, since I couldn't catch the whole session --I tuned in half-way through Peres's rather shrill and aggressive defence-- I can't say whether the Turkish President was right in saying he had been given only 15 minutes and the Israeli had taken 25 minutes, which justified Erdegun's claim to response time.  I did find the start of his rebuttal quite calm and effective and I wish the moderator (David Ignatius, a Washington Post columnist) hadn't pulled that crap about  not keeping people waiting for their dinner. It was a very offensive put-down of a serious  right to rebuttal. 

Would it have been in order to give him his 10 minutes?

I am interested in people's take on both questions.

 


Hoodeet
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Joined: Dec 8 2008

I think we've gotten into the pathological a long time ago. In fact, we're way beyond pathological -- look at our bizarre dependence on destructive economies, which lie at the source of Israel's policies as much as of our global financial meltdown.

 


Doug
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Joined: Apr 17 2001

An interesting summary of what's going on in Israeli politics - not tremendously promising:

With less than two weeks to go before Israel's elections on 10 February, the polls are such that Likud chairman Binyamin (Bibi) Netanyahu felt the need to warn his supporters that it's too early to celebrate. But while Bibi may be worried that the predicted victory could still elude him, Ha'aretz commentator Ari Shavit obviously believes it's time for the grim acknowledgement that "[the] right's victory in the 2009 election is unavoidable … Netanyahu will be the next prime minister. After three years of a centre-left government, a centre-right government will come to power. The unlikely scenario is a Likud-Shas-Yisrael Beiteinu government, while the likely scenario is a Likud-Labour-Kadima one."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/30/israelandthepalestinians-gaza

 


Frustrated Mess
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Joined: Feb 23 2005

Israel's election is irrelevant to the violence.They are all violently committed to the same racialist state.




al-Qa'bong
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Joined: Feb 27 2003
Quote:

And the Turkish people appreciated his stand:

Turkish PM given hero's welcome

 

Talk about cynical politicians.  This guy is putting on an act for the world, trying to look as if he's doing the decent thing (and attracting voter support as well) while helping to finance the Israeli war machine.

 

Quote:

One of the main trade items between two countries is the defense industry. Turkey had auctioned the modernization of the M-60 tanks to the Israeli IMI for 668 million dollars. The IMI also won the modernization of the 300 military helicopters for 57 million dollars. 

Turkey signed three other deals with Israel for the modernization of war jets. The financial amount of these agreements is 850 million dollars.

 

The trade volume between Turkey and Israel has reached to 3.3 billion dollars in 2008 from 1.4 billion dollars in 2002 when the Islamist-rooted Justice and Development came to power.


Doug
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Joined: Apr 17 2001
It might not be something he had the ability to stop. The military gets what it wants in Turkey.

saga
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Joined: Aug 5 2006
Frustrated Mess wrote:

Quote:

"Why did they fire rockets? There was no siege against Gaza," Peres said, his voice rising in emotion. "Why did they fight us, what did they want? There was never a day of starvation in Gaza."

So, help me out here. Did Perez tell a bald faced, glaringly obvious lie in front of the whole world, or is the Israeli leadership so far removed from human reality they actually believe themselves?

Thanks ... I've been looking for that delusional quote.

This is more encouraging, 

Hamas officials in the Gaza Strip said over the weekend that there were "indications" suggesting that the international community was on its way to ending its boycott of the Islamic movement.

Slideshow: Pictures of the week

The officials said they were "encouraged" by statements made by former British prime minister Tony Blair, who serves as the Quartet's special Middle East envoy.

In an interview published in The Times of London, Blair said that Hamas must be involved in the Middle East peace process.

He said that in the past, the issue of the Gaza Strip was neglected in an effort to establish a Palestinian state in the West Bank - an effort, he added, that was never going to work.

RELATED

Blair added that Hamas must both renounce violence and recognize Israel's right to exist before it could be involved in the peace process.

"I do think it is important that we find a way of bringing Hamas into this process, but it can only be done if Hamas is prepared to do it on the right terms," he said.

 .....

... but there is that clinker in there.

Undecided same ole same ole ... ssdd

"The local leaders believe that while they paid a heavy price, the leaders in Damascus were staying in five-star hotels in Arab capitals."

He said that while the Hamas leaders in the Gaza Strip favored a new cease-fire with Israel, Mashaal and his friends were not eager to reach such a deal before achieving political gains.

... "political gains" ... like a place at the table?

If so, sounds like they still have a common goal, and Blair has moved too.

Recognition ... recognition of right of return for all peoples, and equal rights in all jurisdictions.

?

Is that a bit too broad? lol

Foot in mouth

 

 

 


Lard Tunderin Jeezus
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Joined: Aug 27 2001
Michelle
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Joined: May 10 2001
An oldie but goodie, LTJ.  I wonder what's happening with that now, almost a year later?  And of course - there's nothing like "the Facebook angle" to attract readers!

M. Spector
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Joined: Feb 19 2005

Quote:

Israeli TV viewers have lately been exposed to a bizarre sight: army officers appearing with their faces hidden, as usual for criminals when the court prohibits their identification. Pedophiles, for example, or attackers of old women.

On the orders of the military censors, this applies to all officers, from battalion commanders down, who have been involved in the Gaza war. Since the faces of brigade commanders and above are generally known, the order does not apply to them.

Immediately after the cease-fire, the Minister of Defense, Ehud Barak, promoted a special law that would give unlimited backing by the state to all officers and soldiers who took part in the Gaza war and who might be accused abroad of war crimes. This seems to confirm the Hebrew adage: “On the head of the thief, the hat is burning”.

I do not object to trials abroad. The main thing is that war criminals, like pirates, should be brought to justice. It is not so important where they are caught. (This rule was applied by the State of Israel when it abducted Adolf Eichmann in Argentina and hanged him in Israel for heinous crimes committed outside the territory of Israel and, indeed, before the state even existed.)

But as an Israeli patriot, I would prefer suspected Israeli war criminals to be put on trial in Israel. That is necessary for the country, for all decent officers and soldiers of the Israeli army, for the education of future generations of citizens and soldiers.

There is no need to rely on international law alone. There are Israeli laws against war crimes.

Uri Avnery


Frustrated Mess
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Joined: Feb 23 2005

Israeli war crimes:

Quote:
I travelled to Beit Lahia, also in northern Gaza, recently to visit some of Oxfam's beneficiaries. The strawberry fields, chicken farms and cow pastures were gone. The stench of dead and decaying animals was choking.

Amongst the mountains of rubble that remained of homes, flattened either by F-16s or Merkava tanks, people were gingerly picking their way through, trying to salvage a few family items and attempting to clean away the debris.

Other residents were too numb to do anything, and just sat around in groups drinking tea. Even the dogs looked stunned, and instead of barking at us as they usually do when we pass, they just stared at us.

The worst hit areas appeared in one area of Jabalia refugee camp on the outskirts of Gaza city. It used to be a nice neighbourhood with double-storey homes and neatly paved roads. Two houses remain. Some people sat in tents while others sat on what remained of their homes.

http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=45637

Quote:

Quote:

The wholesale destruction of farms, greenhouses, dairy parlours, livestock, chicken coops and orchards has damaged food production, which was already hit by the blockade.

Buildings heavily damaged during Israel's Operation Cast Lead included much of its agricultural infrastructure. The Ministry of Agriculture was targeted, the agriculture faculty at al-Azhar university in Beit Hanoun largely destroyed, and the offices of the Palestinian Agricultural Relief Committees in Zaitoun - which provides cheap food for the poor - ransacked and vandalised by soldiers who left abusive graffiti.

Although international and local officials are still gathering figures, they believe that scores, perhaps hundreds, of wells and water sources have been damaged and several hundred greenhouses have been levelled, as well as severe damage inflicted on 60,000-75,000 dunums of Gaza's 175,000 dunums (44,000 acres) of farmable land.

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/01/gaza-food-crisis

I do not have words to express my feelings about this. But this is the sort of scorched earth criminal insanity supported by our politicians?

 


Frustrated Mess
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Joined: Feb 23 2005
Quote:

In realpolitik, Israel's leaders clearly have no intention of pulling 100,000 settlers out of what are now known to be illegal settlements, where Palestinian land was seized arbitrarily, to make a Palestinian state possible ...

A more promising avenue holds the key to regional stability. Engaging Iran secretly at the highest level, much the way Henry Kissinger opened the way to Beijing's Forbidden City for President Nixon, would seem to be a more profitable avenue for George Mitchell's diplomatic dexterity. Iran's influence in the Middle East -- Syria, Hezbollah in Lebanon, Hamas in Gaza, the Maliki government in Baghdad, diplomatic clout in Oman, Qatar, Dubai -- is not negligible.

When a UPI editorial starts calling for cutting Israel loose in favour if Iran, perhaps the days of the Vicious State are truly numbered.



Bubbles
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Joined: Feb 21 2003

I m not sure if Iran has much to do with Israels demise.  These selfcentred egomeniacs are their own worst enemies in my opinion.

They are using a sledge hammer to kill a Hamas mosquito sitting between their eyes.


M. Spector
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Joined: Feb 19 2005

Quote:

Extremist rabbis and their followers, bent on waging holy war against the Palestinians, are taking over the Israeli army by stealth, according to critics.

In a process one military historian has termed the rapid “theologization” of the Israeli army, there are now entire units of religious combat soldiers, many of them based in West Bank settlements. They answer to hardline rabbis who call for the establishment of a Greater Israel that includes the occupied Palestinian territories.

Their influence in shaping the army’s goals and methods is starting to be felt, say observers, as more and more graduates from officer courses are also drawn from Israel’s religious extremist population.

“We have reached the point where a critical mass of religious soldiers is trying to negotiate with the army about how and for what purpose military force is employed on the battlefield,” said Yigal Levy, a political sociologist at the Open University who has written several books on the Israeli army.

The new atmosphere was evident in the “excessive force” used in the recent Gaza operation, Dr. Levy said. More than 1,300 Palestinians were killed, a majority of them civilians, and thousands were injured as whole neighborhoods of Gaza were leveled.

“When soldiers, including secular ones, are imbued with theological ideas, it makes them less sensitive to human rights or the suffering of the other side.”

Jonathan Cook


Frustrated Mess
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Joined: Feb 23 2005

The following link to parts I and II of the CBS 60 Minutes report that engendered so much anger from defenders of the Zionist racial supremacy movement. The problem with the segment? Truth. See for yourself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYAgyv2MKyI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hUaeID9Lap0

 


Frustrated Mess
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Joined: Feb 23 2005

Excellent article by an Osgoode Law School Prof.

 

Quote:
A more fundamental objection, however, is the self-evident legal and moral principle that an aggressor cannot rely upon self-defence to justify violence against resistance to its own aggression.

http://www.counterpunch.org/ 


al-Qa'bong
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Joined: Feb 27 2003

Israeli Murder Forces gun down another kid, this time in Hebron

 

This 14-year old must have been throwing rockets at innocent Zionist civilians.

Quote:
Israeli soldiers shot and killed a Palestinian teenager in a confrontation with stone-throwing protesters on Friday in the occupied West Bank, Palestinian medics said.

First-aid workers said soldiers opened fire killing Izzedin al-Jamal, 14, with a bullet to the chest.

The Israeli army had no comment on the incident in Hebron, where its troops defend a tiny Jewish enclave wedged inside the second largest Palestinian city in the territory Israel captured in a 1967 war.


newbold
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Joined: Feb 14 2009

Zionist or Israeli?

 

there is a difference.  Hamas can't target zionists but they CAN target israelis, as all the citizens are Israeli.

 Hamas are ruining it for everybody, even if Palestineans are backed into a corner with little else to do to defend themselves.  

Don't make this bigger than it needs to be. 

 


Lard Tunderin Jeezus
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Joined: Aug 27 2001
newbold wrote:

Zionist or Israeli?

there is a difference.  Hamas can't target zionists but they CAN target israelis, as all the citizens are Israeli.

 Hamas are ruining it for everybody, even if Palestineans are backed into a corner with little else to do to defend themselves.  

Don't make this bigger than it needs to be. 

You're obviously not here to read the threads with an open mind, or discuss the issues intelligently. You're here to interrupt, disrupt, and lecture from your secure place of ignorance.

So please, fuck off. 


al-Qa'bong
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Joined: Feb 27 2003
newbold wrote:

 Hamas are ruining it for everybody, even if Palestineans are backed into a corner with little else to do to defend themselves.  

The Israeli Murder Forces (IMF) have been gunning down children since before you'd ever heard of Hamas, but go ahead, stick to the Zionist talking points if they make you feel knowledgeable.

 


Hoodeet
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Joined: Dec 8 2008

For shame, Newbold.

Stone-throwing teenagers and children cannot and should not be equated with armed militants who shoot rockets. 

But young IDF soldiers charged with protecting the hundreds of illegal settlements in Palestinian territory can be equated with those sent into Palestinian villages and into Gaza.  They are trained to "defend" themselves by any means, which includes shooting unarmed civilians, whether they are throwing stones or walking to school or to pick up food from a UN centre.  Thousands of young Israelis are being/have been conditioned into a kind of sociopathic behaviour that's no better than teaching little Palestinian schoolchildren to hate Jews and embrace martyrdom, which is one of Israel's bugbears about Palestinian education. 

Shooting unarmed civilians, whether they are throwing stones or not, and whether the bullets are rubber-coated metal or body-piercing metal, is a major violation of the Geneva Convention.

Enough enabling already.


contrarianna
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Joined: Aug 15 2006

Clinton, new "Enemy of Israel' or just an "antisemite"?

Apparently pushing for humanitarian aid to decimated Gaza is the equivalent of "hammering Israel".

This is what  politicians get if they deviate one iota from the script:

Jewish Leaders Blast Clinton Over Israel Criticism
Zuckerman, Lawmakers, Local Jews Say Secretary of State Not the Hillary Clinton They Used to Know; Hillary Pressuring Israel to Speed up Aid to Gaza
by Marcia Kramer

http://wcbstv.com/national/hillary.clinton.israel.2.945238.html

pogge
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Joined: Mar 25 2002

Israel may face war crimes trials over Gaza

Quote:

The international criminal court is considering whether the Palestinian Authority is "enough like a state" for it to bring a case alleging that Israeli troops committed war crimes in the recent assault on Gaza.

The deliberations would potentially open the way to putting Israeli military commanders in the dock at The Hague over the campaign, which claimed more than 1,300 lives, and set an important precedent for the court over what cases it can hear.

As part of the process the court's head of jurisdictions, part of the office of the prosecutor, is examining every international agreement signed by the PA to decide whether it behaves - and is regarded by others - as operating like a state.

Following talks with the Arab League's head, Amr Moussa, and senior PA officials, moves have accelerated inside the court to deliver a ruling on whether it may be able to insist on jurisdiction over alleged war crimes perpetrated in Gaza, with a decision from the prosecutor's office expected within "months, not years".

Via Another Point of View

 


remind
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Joined: Jun 25 2004
Things apparently come full circle.

Doug
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Joined: Apr 17 2001

I'm not sure that architecture can do what politics seemingly can't, but it's an interesting proposition anyway. What to do about states that aren't terriorially contiguous? Giant green-roofed bridges! Smile

http://i.gizmodo.com/5162642/mindblowing-buildings-in-the-sky-may-solve-israeli+palestinian-conflict


Skinny Dipper
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Joined: Dec 23 2005
My simple solution to the Israeli-Palestinian problem is to ask God to turn all Palestinians into Jews.  Unfortunately, I don't think this could actually work.  The Palestinians could become Jewish enough for God, but not Jewish enough for the Israelis.

Skinny Dipper
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Joined: Dec 23 2005
I appreciate reading Judy Rebick and Alan Sears's comments about criticizing Israel while being labelled anti-Semitic by others.  One should not be called anti-Semitic or anti-Canadian just for criticizing Israel's actions.  Perhaps Ms. Rebick and Mr. Sears just want to help make Israel into a better place for all.

Unionist
Online
Joined: Dec 11 2005

Eight killed in Israeli strikes on Gaza Strip

Quote:

At least eight people have been killed and dozens injured after Israeli attacks on the Gaza Strip.

The dead included four civilians who were killed when a tank shell was fired at a Gaza City suburb. It is believed three members of the same family were killed. There were unconfirmed reports of a fifth victim.

Four people were killed when an Israeli aircraft fired at a car in another suburb of Gaza City. It was claimed the passengers were Islamic Jihad militants. Within an hour, a rocket was fired at the Israeli city of Ashkelon.

Tension has been mounting in the area since two members of Hamas were killed in an airstrike last week, after sporadic firing from Gaza into Israel. On Saturday, 50 mortar shells were fired from Gaza into Israel causing several injuries.

On Monday evening, an airstrike injured 18 people. The Israeli army said it had been an attack on a tunnel that could be used to smuggle terrorists into Israel. Attacks on Gaza continued from tanks and the air throughout Tuesday.

 


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