Gaza, Israel, Hamas, etc [II]
January 3, 2009 - 12:05am
Regarding the post about Jennifer Loewenstein's article early in the previous thread, people may find this interview interesting - it was conducted this Wednesday:
"We interview author-activist and researcher Jennifer Loewenstein on the suffering in Gaza and the bombing.
She draws upon her impressive list of contacts in Palestine and in Gaza to draw a picture of what is happening."
MP3
Download link:
http://www.radio4all.net/index.php/program/30960
I found her recent articles on Counterpunch to be well-written and poignant, which is why we scrambled to interview her.
Great web site, Brendan.
Video: Interview with a Norwegian Doctor in Gaza
Excellent article, as usual, by Ilan Pappe, on Electronic Intifada:
Israel's righteous fury and its victims in Gaza
An exelent article to be sure.
Did the IAF bomb a Gazan welding truck or a Hamas Grad transport?
Haaretz
"Everything is still there on the ground," said Samur on Thursday. "We only moved the dead."
There is video footage of the massacre conducted by the IAF included with the article. Fortunately, for comparison, the IAF has also provided similar footage airial footage of GRAD missiles being launched and destroyed for comparison.
Actual Grad Missiles being destroyed from the air by the IAF.
As you can see by comparison, they look nothing like the objects being loaded into the truck. Rockets have stabalizer fins and so on, not like the ones in the truck, which look like gas canisters used for welding.
An interview with Sanur with footage near the truck is also on the web somewhere. From close up they look like gas canisters as well.
B'tselem Interview with Sanur
Video: Interview with a Norwegian Doctor in Gaza
That is indeed a stark report, definitely mandatory viewing for anyone who doubts the severity of the crisis.
Not one of the nearly 450 presidents of American colleges and universities who prominently denounced an effort by British academics to boycott Israeli universities in September 2007 have raised their voice in opposition to Israel’s bombardment of the Islamic University of Gaza earlier this week. Lee C. Bollinger, president of Columbia University, who organized the petition, has been silent, as have his co-signatories from Princeton, Northwestern, and Cornell Universities, and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Most others who signed similar petitions, like the 11,000 professors from nearly 1,000 universities around the world, have also refrained from expressing their outrage at Israel’s attack on the leading university in Gaza. The artfully named Scholars for Peace in the Middle East, which organized the latter appeal, has said nothing about the assault.
Again, the hypcorisy of academia speaks louder than words
Israel Beiteinu chairman Avigdor Lieberman responded to the demonstration by saying that "In the same way that the government of Israel knows that it is impossible to stop the operation in Gaza until Hamas is eradicated, [the government] must act against those Israeli citizens who are not loyal to the state of Israel."
"The demonstration in Sakhnin in which ten thousand protestors are participating proves that their loyalty is to Hamas and to those who want to destroy Israel," Lieberman continued.
Now comes the ground invasion. This is where Israel starts to lose some soldiers and the ratcheting up of calls to hold a cease fire begins in earnest.
Israeli artillery units shell Gaza frontier
GAZA -- Israeli artillery cannons shelled the Gaza Strip on Saturday, witnesses on both sides of the border said, heralding a possible escalation to a new tactic in more than a week of fighting.
Palestinian witnesses said the barrage caused a large explosion in Gaza City as well as a series of blasts stitching the nearby frontier with Israel.
There was no immediate word of casualties.
Israeli artillery generally fire unguided 155mm shells. If put to sustained use, the weapons could significantly increase the number of civilian casualties from an Israeli air campaign that has killed at least 433 Palestinians. Israel says it is trying to stop Hamas rocket fire.
I think you mean the massacre begins in earnest before the sycophantic leaders of so-called Western Civilization clear their throats in the general direction of the racist murderers.
Tens of thousands of Israeli Arabs protest against Gaza offensive
Aljazeera reports up to 150,000 taking part in the demonstration and thousands of Israeli police "deployed on the outskirts of the town and across northern Israel following a number of violent protests against the Gaza operation in recent days."
And before even the land invasion, the IDF has stepped up the bombing of homes of Hamas officials- ie, homes of officials of the government of Gaza.
Barbarous enough in the direct intent, there is also the small matter of the "collateral damage" of attacking homes in very dense urban areas. Even worse than the so called "collateral damage" of bombing police stations and other government facilities standing side by side with apartment buildings that has been going on since the beginning of the massacre.
Frustrated Mess: What document is this quoted from?
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Not one of the nearly 450 presidents of American colleges and universities who prominently denounced an effort by British academics to boycott Israeli universities in September 2007 have raised their voice in opposition to Israel’s bombardment of the Islamic University of Gaza earlier this week. Lee C. Bollinger, president of Columbia University, who organized the petition, has been silent, as have his co-signatories from Princeton, Northwestern, and Cornell Universities, and the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. Most others who signed similar petitions, like the 11,000 professors from nearly 1,000 universities around the world, have also refrained from expressing their outrage at Israel’s attack on the leading university in Gaza. The artfully named Scholars for Peace in the Middle East, which organized the latter appeal, has said nothing about the assault.
_________
Sorry, Martin. My comment, as weak at being pithy as it was, had been linked but I neglected to bold it. To save you time, here is the link: http://chronicle.com/news/article/5725/opinion-wheres-the-academic-outra...
I've just heard on the radio that Israel has begun a land invasion of Gaza.
Link from the BBC
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7809959.stm
British telecommunications firm FreedomCall has terminated its cooperation with Israel's MobileMax due to the IDF operation in Gaza.
"We received an email from the British company informing us that it is severing all ties with us and any other Israeli company following Israel's strike in Gaza," said CEO Raanan Cohen.
"We weren't expecting this from them and there was no prior warning. I don't intend to appeal to them or answer the letter." The email from FreedomCall said, "As a result of the Israeli government action in the last few days we will no longer be in a position to consider doing business with yourself or any other Israeli company."
MobileMax, established in 2004, produces a program providing cellular phones with inexpensive international service
http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/4950/2/
I heard on the CBC radio news today that this massacre is "fighting," and that the Zionist murderers are bombing "targets" not human beings.
"Published on Saturday, January 3, 2009 by Inter Press Service
US Branch of Amnesty Calls on Rice to Drop 'Lopsided' Stance
by Jim Lobe
WASHINGTON - The U.S. section of Amnesty International sent an "urgent" letter Friday to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, calling on her to end what it called Washington's "lopsided response" to the ongoing Israeli air strikes on Gaza that have reportedly killed more than 400 Palestinians, including scores of unarmed civilians.
....
"...Amnesty International USA is particularly dismayed at the lopsided response by the U.S. government to the recent violence and its lackadaisical efforts to ameliorate the humanitarian crisis in Gaza," it stressed, noting that several recent reports by its London-based parent organization, U.N. aid agencies, Oxfam, CARE and other relief groups have described the situation in Gaza -- even before the latest outbreak of hostilities -- as the worst since Israel's 1967 conquest of the area.
.....
In a statement released Tuesday, New York-based Human Rights Watch (HRW) also criticised Israel -- as well as Hamas' rocket firings -- for failing to discriminate between legitimate military and civilian targets to minimise harm to civilians. It cited several aerial attacks carried out early in the campaign which "appear to be unlawful," including strikes against students leaving a U.N. training facility; against a "Hamas mosque" that also destroyed a nearby house; and several police stations and a police academy.
As it has in the past, HRW also charged that Israel's blockade of the territory amounted to "collective punishment against the civilian population, a serious violation of the laws of war."
In its letter, Amnesty called on Washington to immediately suspend its arms deliveries to Israel pending an investigation as to whether previously supplied weapons have been used to commit serious human rights abuses during the current assault. "
LINK
This is actually an allout assault by Israel on all of humanity, not just the Palestinians, though they are bearing the immediate brunt of it and they are the ones losing their lives, for now.
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"watching the tide roll away"
16 murdered while praying in Mosque.
http://www.livenews.com.au/Articles/2009/01/04/Israel_hits_Gaza_mosque_strike_kills_16
The ground invasion has begun. Barak had to do it, of course, otherwise he would be accused of backing down by Bibi, and all the Palestinian blood killed for Knesset seats would be wasted.
Palestinians lives are worth something, in the end I guess, but only valued when extingusished.
As usual, The Star is completely one-sided when writing about what's happening. I made a comment in the Comment section and I was found to be "offensive". This is sickening and has to stop but it appears all of the world is behind Israel. WTF are they all so afraid of?
I think that creating this appearance is paramount for supporters of the sionist project and has become accepted for consumers of the propaganda being put out since the early nineties. You should read the absolute hatred being poured like burning oil by Israel supporters on anyone attempting to raise the issue on discussion lists...
Well, make a lits of these lists for me then.
Have a gander at Huffington Post. Look at the comments in The Star or the Globe. You'll see that saying anything gets you an earload.
Cueball, you do not believe that people saying Israel is wrong are being mocked and told else wise? I find that hard to believe, frankly.
But you know, I've been surfing the major news outlets on T.V., and they've not been shy about showing the bodies of dead Palistinian children.
A picture is worth a thousand liars.
In the short term, those who back the cause of peace may think Israel is dominating the narrative, and perhaps they are.
But my god, they have lost.
I hear there are massive protests downtown as I type. I agree with you Tommy, they have lost.
The brave Puffington Post wouldn't post comments I made no different than what I've made here. I've cancelled my subscription.
Coverage of the Toronto demonstration by the Toronto Star.
I love how the reporter felt the need to give the same amount of column space and a longer quote to the fascist leader of the Canadian wing of an American terrorist group leading a 200 person counter-protest in support of Israeli apartheid, than to the thousands of people marching in support of Palestinian rights.
... I've been surfing the major news outlets on T.V., and they've not been shy about showing the bodies of dead Palistinian children.
A picture is worth a thousand liars. ...
P.S. I love this. A child is murdered by the Israelis, and how does the Toronto Star refer to that little one? "Militant's child." Oh, well then, that's okay.
I guess maybe that's another thing that distinguishes me from my brothers and sisters here on the left. While I think the vast essembelage of my fellow citizens don't pay enough attention, and maybe should be a little quicker on the uptake, I don't think they are stupid, or swallow everything they hear or read hook, line and sinker.
Pictures of dead children do not play well in the corn belt. Or the Bible belt. Or in Appalachia, or the praries, or the rockies, or, well, anywhere.
You are ahead of the crowd. It will just take time for them to catch up.
You can start here Cueball: Jewish Internet Defense Force 'seizes control' of anti-Israel Facebook group. I joined this forum because, except for responses to Rick Salutin's They Hate Us For Our Bombs, the venerable G&M is not accepting comments on this subject. Apparently they don't have enough editors to censor them all.
“Since “apocalypse” is such an over-used and cheapened term, it is important to recall its precise meaning in the Abrahamic religions. An apocalypse is literally the revelation of the Secret History of the world as becomes possible under the terrible clarity of the Last Days.It is the alternate, despised history of the subaltern classes, the defeated peoples, the extinct cultures.”
Mike Davis, from ‘WHITE PEOPLE ARE ONLY A BAD DREAM’ an essay from DEAD CITIES AND OTHER TALES, 2002, The New Press, New YorkOf course, there is a rather large elephant in this room, isn't there?
Maybe I can negotiate the class five language rapids here, and suggest that the elephant's name could be the control of the media by the Pro-Israel Lobby? Is that what eveyone is not talking about?
I think it's apparent, both in terms of what we are not talking about, and in terms of reality.
It's ironic, isn't it, that the very tactics used in identity politics we have sharpened to such a razor's edge has now been put to our own throats.
So, we won't hear about "The Pro Israel Lobby" from reasonable voices, instead we'll start hearing about the "world Jewish conspiracy" from Skinheads and the like.
And it has real danger of hitting a chord with those pictures of dead Palistinian children people have filled away in the back of their minds.
It's little wonder people anthropomorphise evil. It seems to grow, and reproduce, with a mind of it's own.
But you know, I've been surfing the major news outlets on T.V., and they've not been shy about showing the bodies of dead Palistinian children.
A picture is worth a thousand liars.
In the short term, those who back the cause of peace may think Israel is dominating the narrative, and perhaps they are.
But my god, they have lost.
I agree. In fact I think Israel itself may be finished. The reaction of Arab-Israelis is an omen of greater unrest. That said, what comes now, in what appears to be the possible first footstep into a new mass ethnic cleansing may indeed be very bloody. But Israel will not be stronger for it, but much weaker.
The Iranians are speaking to Medvedev as we speak.
“These are America’s problems, and we must come together as Americans to meet them with the urgency this moment demands,” he said today in his weekly radio address. “If we don’t act swiftly and boldly, we could see a much deeper economic downturn that could lead to double-digit unemployment.”
I link this here only to illustrate that One-President-At-A-Time Barack O'Bush can indeed make statements on important events.
Of course, there is a rather large elephant in this room, isn't there?...I think it's apparent, both in terms of what we are not talking about, and in terms of reality......And it has real danger of hitting a chord with those pictures of dead Palistinian children people have filled away in the back of their minds.
The Israeli Lobby
There's a very thick line between the obvious reality and skinheaddom. I believe we know where it is.
Of course, there is a rather large elephant in this room, isn't there?
Maybe I can negotiate the class five language rapids here, and suggest that the elephant's name could be the control of the media by the Pro-Israel Lobby? Is that what eveyone is not talking about?
I think it's apparent, both in terms of what we are not talking about, and in terms of reality.
It's ironic, isn't it, that the very tactics used in identity politics we have sharpened to such a razor's edge has now been put to our own throats.
So, we won't hear about "The Pro Israel Lobby" from reasonable voices, instead we'll start hearing about the "world Jewish conspiracy" from Skinheads and the like.
Are you saying that the pro-Israel lobby (code for Jews?) controls the media? That's very dangerous. For decades people have been saying these things about Jews and hollywood and the banking system, and they've always been properly discredited. I won't even go into the Protocols of Zion (a fake BTW created in Russia).
I believe we know where it is.
I believe we know where it is. I'm not so sure it will be so clear to others, and there will be those in the pro Israel lobby, and those under the collective rock we call anti-semetism who will delight in confusing the two.
Well, most of us do anyway. That didn't take long at all.
"Are you saying that the pro-Israel lobby (code for Jews?) controls the media?"
No, I was saying that this is what others were making a point of not saying, because it can easily be manipulated to say they are using it as "code for Jews" by both the pro-Israel lobby, and by anti-semites.
And, it's just this kind of mouth shutting technique of rhetoric we on the left pioneered.
I find a little vanilla can take the bitter edge off the taste of irony.
It was in this context – under a collective punishment designed to topple a democracy – that some forces within Gaza did something immoral: they fired Qassam rockets indiscriminately at Israeli cities. These rockets have killed 16 Israeli citizens. This is abhorrent: targeting civilians is always murder. But it is hypocritical for the Israeli government to claim now to speak out for the safety of civilians when it has been terrorising civilians as a matter of state policy.
The Independent
"Are you saying that the pro-Israel lobby (code for Jews?) controls the media?"
No, I was saying that this is what others were making a point of not saying, because it can easily be manipulated to say they are using it as "code for Jews" by both the pro-Israel lobby, and by anti-semites.
And, it's just this kind of mouth shutting technique of rhetoric we on the left pioneered.
I find a little vanilla can take the bitter edge off the taste of irony.
So then according to you some people on the "Left" do believe that the pro-Israel lobby (code for Jews) controls the media, but they're not saying so because they don't want to be labled as anti-semites, or lumped in with skinheads. That's a very wise position for them to take
But if they believe it, even if they don't say it, then they are anti-semites aren't they? Because we all know (or should know) that Jews don't control the media, or hollywood, or the banking system.
The evangelical movement forms a large part of the problem as well. They have an interest in seeing everything in its place for the final curtain call. It's a powerful one-two combination.
It depends on the progress they're doing with thought policing these days.
So then according to you some people on the "Left" do believe that the pro-Israel lobby (code for Jews) controls the media, but they're not saying so because they don't want to be labled as anti-semites, or lumped in with skinheads. That's a very wise position for them to take
But if they believe it, even if they don't say it, then they are anti-semites aren't they? Because we all know (or should know) that Jews don't control the media, or hollywood, or the banking system.
So in your opinion, Observer, are you saying AIPAC is not a component of the Israeli Lobby but really of the Jewish Lobby?
Of course, there is a rather large elephant in this room, isn't there?
Maybe I can negotiate the class five language rapids here, and suggest that the elephant's name could be the control of the media by the Pro-Israel Lobby? Is that what eveyone is not talking about?
I think it's apparent, both in terms of what we are not talking about, and in terms of reality.
It's ironic, isn't it, that the very tactics used in identity politics we have sharpened to such a razor's edge has now been put to our own throats.
So, we won't hear about "The Pro Israel Lobby" from reasonable voices, instead we'll start hearing about the "world Jewish conspiracy" from Skinheads and the like.
Are you saying that the pro-Israel lobby (code for Jews?) controls the media? That's very dangerous. For decades people have been saying these things about Jews and hollywood and the banking system, and they've always been properly discredited. I won't even go into the Protocols of Zion (a fake BTW created in Russia).
Words have meaning. Israel and Jews are not one and the same. So, says most of the Jewish posters on this board. So, says Judy Rebick, who founded this board. When one says Israeli Lobby, one is talking about Israel, not Jews. Jews use the term "Israeli Lobby" to distance themselves from Israel, non-Jews use the term "Israeli Lobby" to distance themselves from Skinheads.
How else is one to speak about Israeli lobby groups in the US and Canada? Any ideas for a substiture word? Or should we just not talk about Israel at all? Perhaps that is your intent.
Is "objective" just a synonym for "thick?"
Anyway, I disagree with Tommy's charachterization of the "Israeli Lobby's" control over the media. The media is controlled mostly by corporations that express corporate interests. Israeli policy and actions are aligned with the same interests, in a mutually beneficial alliance, because the same corporate infrastructure rules there, as it doea here.
Actually, there is an active conspiracy concerning the control of the media, hollywood, and the banking system.
(whispering) it's controlled by rich people.
Anyway, we are so very clever, but it means shit in the end. As an active member of the "people shouldn't kill people lobby", I have to point out that this whole arguement concerning Israeli's and Palestinians is supercharged with "whose side are you on". And, it's not even an option to say "a pox on both houses", because, as we know, Israeli's and Palestinians are people just like us. And we are certainly not immune, though we think we are, from the horrors about to splash across our T.V. screens in the coming days.
It is a shamefull day to be a human.
On an emotive level, my gut sense is that the Christians are setting up the Jews once more as the front men for their folly, and when the time comes they will cut them loose, and blame all the problems on the Jews, like they have done time and time again.
Setting up Jews as the tool for British imperial designs in the Arab world was a masterful stroke of devide and conquer imperialism that both resolved the so called "Jewish problem" in Europe by creating receptical for unwanted European Jews, and also set up the Arabs for an endless divisive war. Before the World War II, the problem was that the idea of being dumped off in Palestine simply did not catch on among Jews, and volunteers were scarce. Enter Adolph Hitler. The British had no problem at all directing the refugees and survivors of Hitlers pogrom to Palestine, both during and after the war, just as long as none ended up in jolly old England.
The sad thing was that they were able to find Jewish collaborators in these anti-semitic schemes, such as Ben Gurion brandishing Theodor Herzl's defeatist Zionist ideas. Herzl made no bones about his imperial designs, and originally demanded everything from the Euphrates to Nile river for the new Jewish homeland.
Anyone who is interested in knowing how the Israeli Lobby controls the publics perception of events in Middle East should take the time to watch Peace, Propaganda and the Promisedland.
As for whether or Jews control Hollywood, readHow Jewish is Hollywood by Joel Stern.
It's getting worse -White Phosphorous: Israel fires artillery shells into Gaza.
The more I hear about this conflict, the more depressing and hopeless the situation appears.
Over the years, I have met some humanitarian workers and Canadian diplomats who have been posted to that general region. None were ever optimistic. Despite the goodwill of the majority of ordinary people on the ground, it appears that political leaders, whether Israeli or secular or fundamentalist Palestinian and Arab, are driven by blind hardline ideology.
I have to give diplomats credit for dedicating their lives to finding a solution to this mess. Leaders on both sides are driving their peoples backwards.
Or, in a less respectful tone: a plague on both their houses (leaders, not regular people): Israeli politicians who believe might makes right and seem to think you bomb your way to a peace settlement, and Hamas leaders who have allied themselves with the Holocaust deniers in power in Teheran and whose founding charter (article 32) says Palestinians are the victims of an international Jewish conspiracy outlined in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
I hope someone at the UN has some good ideas for a ceasefire. I don't. I think they have all gone mad.
"So then according to you some people on the "Left" do believe that the pro-Israel lobby (code for Jews) ..."
Haven't we moved beyond this cheap diversion long ago, along with "criticism of the State of Israel is coded antisemitism, " even among the subjectively blind?
The Israel Lobby includes Jews and non-Jews, and its anti-Arab racism is quite acceptable in the Great White West.
Here's a great example of racism in the "liberal" Israeli press:
"Bloody hell, don't they look at the life of luxury led by their brethren in the West Bank and learn that quiet pays? From my acquaintance with Arabs, I tell you: They simply have a mental problem. There's nothing to it. No matter what you do, they will come back with complaints. Aalek, Gaza is one big prison of refugees, the jobless and the starving. Hey, is that our fault? Hey, is it because of us that they're like that? "
Yes, it is.
Or, in a less respectful tone: a plague on both their houses (leaders, not regular people): Israeli politicians who believe might makes right and seem to think you bomb your way to a peace settlement, and Hamas leaders who have allied themselves with the Holocaust deniers in power in Teheran and whose founding charter (article 32) says Palestinians are the victims of an international Jewish conspiracy outlined in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
I hope someone at the UN has some good ideas for a ceasefire. I don't.
If our hopes are pinned on the U.N., we have no hope at all.
It's tempting-- even comforting-- for us to think this kind of thing particular to Israeli's and Palistinians. But we see this repeated in other parts of the globe, and through history often enough that we should realize that we are very much capable of the very same kind of madness. To believe otherwise is to believe that there is something fundamentaly flawed about Jews and Arabs.
Haven't we moved beyond this cheap diversion long ago, along with "criticism of the State of Israel is coded antisemitism, " even among the subjectively blind?
But don't you see us using the same rhetorical cut and thrust throughout babble, in other threads on other subjects?
Anyone who is interested in knowing how the Israeli Lobby controls the publics perception of events in Middle East should take the time to watch Peace, Propaganda and the Promisedland.
As for whether or Jews control Hollywood, readHow Jewish is Hollywood by Joel Stern.
It's getting worse -White Phosphorous: Israel fires artillery shells into Gaza.
Yes, I have seen all that.
However, there is a difference between "control" and "influence".
That is the first problem I have with you charachterization. The second is that it is the corporations that "control" the media. My point is that the media is some kind of empty "objective" vessel for ideas and points of view, and that if it were not for the influence or "control" of these lobby groups, they would have a different take on the issue, and disseminate different information.
I don't think this would happen, at all.
The fact is that the world view that the Israeli lobby groups put forward, fits snuggly into a whole set of social relations that the corporations benefit from, and indeed represent, a view that the business elite have the god given right to rule over the powerless through force and control their resources, and assert that domination through the tools that they control, such as the Israeli government, and US government.
Any assertion of power by indiginous forces, out of the control and influence of western interests will be deemed "terrorist", and therefore liable to the consequences, both military, and political, and the media will vilify them, regardless if Israel is involved or not.
Israel comes into existance as an express assertion of western power in the middle east, overtop of the objections of the local inhabitants, and their ailing rulers, the Ottomans, and continues to this day to assert that power in the role of a "white" imperial/colonial outpost in the Middle East.
Its "Jewishness" is secondary to that fact. Within Israel there are definite cliques and power blocks that directly benefit from the relationship, and desire that Israel should continue to follow that route, and they actively insert themselve into US corporate culture in order to create a consenus in the US that accepts the fundamental "morality" of Israel as a client of western interests.
It is not about "control". It is about mutually beneficial relationships. Indeed, the power brokers in the US, those that control the US media, and those in Israel, are very much the same set of people, and they agree that Israel is a convenient vehicle for expressing their mutual business interests in the middle east.
Abandoning Israel, and therefore the US's most important client in the region would undermine the very fabric of the ability of the US to dominate the resources of the region.
I have the feeling that we are watching something historic, and historically bloody. The last news that I heard is that Israeli troops went in with tanks.
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http://LASIK-Flap.com ~ Health Warning about LASIK Eye Surgery
"watching" being the operative word. Is anyone really disturbing MM. Ignatieff, Harper and Duceppe on their quiet, Christian holiday/vacation?
My biggest fear, is that Israel will get Egypt to open up its borders, and so attempt to drive the people out. It has occurred to me that one of the main operative reasons that Egypt does not open its border from Gaza is to prevent such an influx of refugees, and in a sense, it is trying to force Israel to deal with the situation directly, without conveniece of simply being able to drive a large number of Gazans our of Gaza.
I don't think Egypt would want anything to do with the long term economic cost of maintaining refugee camps, etc. In fact, if it looks like Palistinians are going to flee Gaza for Egypt, it wouldn's surprise me if Egypt mobilizes it's military.
In fact, I'd be very much surprised if there are no surprises in all this.
Popcorn, anyone?
Egyptian authorities clamp down on Gaza protests
U.N. council holds emergency meeting on Gaza
Sun Jan 4, 2009 1:47am GMT By Louis Charbonneau
UNITED NATIONS (Reuters) - The U.N. Security Council held a special meeting on Saturday after Israel launched a ground operation in Gaza.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/usTopNews/idUKTRE50221E20090104?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0
omigod. Invasion ... !
The article about Egypt was interesting, and I can believe that the Mubarek regime is good at crushing opposition.
By the way, how did Sadat die....?
10,000 demonstrate in Tel Aviv against the attacks on Gaza
Excellent posts, Cueball. Israeli violence helps support the privileges that Americans enjoy, that the British and its empire enjoys (Hello Canada!), as well as riflemen, oilmen, and SUV owners worldwide.
This mess is not a function of Israeli lobbyists controlling the entire Western world. And not because of where that reasoning would lead, but because it's not actually true. No, this is a reciprocal arrangement, a transient pact between the West and its chosen receptacle for Jews, once considered sewer rats in the cities of Europe. The deal will be bad for Jews in the end like always. For now, the people of Gaza deserve all our support. It is the only way out.
Control . . . influence, the effect is the same. I was just watching CNN's interview with official Israeli spokesliar Marc Regev (who sounds Australian) and the interviewer's suggestion that it was actually Israel that broke the ceasefire with its early November incursion into Gaza that killed six people (an event even reported in Israeli media) is met with Regev's bald face lie that this is "a view that is shared by no-one else in the world except for Iran." And CNN does nothing to challenge this.
The live footage from Gaza is unreal.
I think that you might be right that Israel's intention is to force Egypt to open its border and literally drive any survivors out and it will become another "land without people" but with a huge natural gas reserve for the Chosen. I am reminded of the US Army's horrific destruction of Fallujah.
That's 1.
That's 2.
Disturbing Youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EaHOGdRGhwQ&e
Just for some context, keep in mind when watching this video that Palestinians have been starved and deprived for weeks and have been reduced to bare survival since the assualt started. Knowing this, Israel attacked a market. Note the victims are civilian and mostly young,
Let us not forget who is financing and supplying this atrocity :
"Though the ins-and-outs of Israeli grievances and strategic considerations are endlessly examined, there is virtually no debate over whether the U.S. should continue to play such an active, one-sided role in this dispute. It's the American taxpayer, with their incredibly consequential yet never-debated multi-billion-dollar aid packages to Israel, who are vital in funding this costly Israeli assault on Gaza. Just as was true for Israel's bombing of Lebanon, it's American bombs that -- with the whole world watching -- are blowing up children and mosques, along with Hamas militants, in Gaza. And it's the American veto power that, time and again, blocks any U.N. action to stop these wars"
Why do they hate us, y'all?
The U.S. government has just blocked a ceasefire recommendation at the UN Security Council.
__________
OK, let's hope for the best from the Knesset and the Pentagon...
Control . . . influence, the effect is the same. I was just watching CNN's interview with official Israeli spokesliar Marc Regev (who sounds Australian) and the interviewer's suggestion that it was actually Israel that broke the ceasefire with its early November incursion into Gaza that killed six people (an event even reported in Israeli media) is met with Regev's bald face lie that this is "a view that is shared by no-one else in the world except for Iran." And CNN does nothing to challenge this.
As I said, the effect of the mutually beneficial relationships are clear. The Israeli spokesperson brings out the mutually accepted bogeyman of Iran, and CNN falls silent. Of course.
Israeli forces bisect Gaza
IBRAHIM BARZAK AND MATTI FRIEDMAN
The Associated Press
January 4, 2009 at 8:08 AM EST
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Israeli ground troops and tanks cut swaths through the Gaza Strip early Sunday, bisecting the coastal territory and surrounding its biggest city as the new phase of a devastating offensive against Hamas gained momentum.
Thousands of soldiers in three brigade-size formations pushed into Gaza after nightfall Saturday, beginning a long-awaited ground offensive after a week of intense aerial bombardment. Black smoke billowed over Gaza City at first light and bursts of machine gun fire rang out.
TV footage showed Israeli troops with night-vision goggles and camouflage face paint marching in single file. Artillery barrages preceded their advance, and they moved through fields and orchards following bomb-sniffing dogs ensuring their routes had not been booby-trapped.
We'll see what if anything the Israeli Army learned after its 'disappointing' foray into Lebanon in 2006. This will only get ugly.
Martin, decades ago, when I were a wee activist, a (slightly) older and wiser activist sternly warned me not to even make any jokes about blowing up stuff (let alone "nuking" it).
Nuking the Pentagon would kill hundreds of thousands of poor African-Americans in DC.
Martin, you either remove the tagline, or your account will be locked until you send an e-mail to the moderators assuring us that you will not use it again.
You have one hour to remove it from your post. If you don't see this warning within the hour, then see above for how you can get your posting privileges back.
Sephardi, watch the rhetoric. Tempers are flying high over this issue, but unionist is right to highlight those quotes as extremely problematic.
Wow Martin, nuke the Pentagon? That's horrible.
Problem is both sides have elements who want to go to war. They want to kill each other and don't give a shit who gets hurt.
Dudes in Palistine are happy to fire rockets at Israel in order to instigate a response.
Dudes in Israel are happy to fire off a series of 'first strike' attacks.
No side is a "good guy". Palistine is gonna keep firing rockets (which are IMPOSSIBLE to stop) and Israel will keep coming up with justifications to attack.
Not true. There have been no rockets fired from the West Bank which has given Israel and Amerika everything they've asked for including a supine leader. And the result? The murders, the raids, the brutality, the closures, the Jewish-Only roads, the home demolitions, the destruction of orchards, the assualts by settlers, and the land theft continues unabated. What is the lesson for Palestinians? Israels just want them dead or gone and they don't care which. It has not a thing to do with rockets. Tell that, though, to Barack O'Bush and his Mendacity of Hope - hope for racists not the oppressed.
After all the posts, after all the resources presented, Realigned still has no fucking clue. Not surprising, really. This is someone who thinks Afghanistan is a noble mission. If you believe that, you have to believe Israel is in the right.
"Dudes" in Israel are engaged in a genocidal attack on a defenseless people. End of story. "Dudes" firing rockets have nothing to do with it.
If you believe that no side is a "good guy", its clear why you're so easily duped into going to Afghanistan.
If you believe that no side is a "good guy", its clear why you're so easily duped into going to Afghanistan.
You may recall my diagnosis:
Amoral and cynical.
Still no sign of remission.
Tempers are are flying high alright and I do not expect to be posting to this board for long, it is inevitable that I will get censored. As the wonderful lady who runs my local library once said - you are not worth anything if you aren't on someone's sh*t list. As someone who is descended from Portuguese Sephardic Jews I am outraged at the murderous onslaught of the Zionist state of Israel which is ignoring dozens of UN resolutions demanding they quit the illegally-occupied (by international law) Palestinian territories. Instead they are bulldozing the homes of ordinary people, building Jews-only settlements serviced by Jews-only roads all protected by a wall armed with remote control machine guns. And herding those that do not share their racist Talmudic beliefs into giant open air concentration camps. Can anyone tell me one thing that is "right" about this? And I must ask - what is "problematic" about linking to an article wherein its Jewish author clearly states he is insulted by the accusation that Jews don't run Hollywood? I did not bring the subject up on this thread. I was only adding to the debate. There are many people and organizations within Israel itself who oppose the actions and mindset of their state's rulers and weirdly enough they seem to have more freedom to point this out in Israeli media than the average Canadian does here. It just goes to show how much of a threat to freedom of thought and speech Canada's Irwin Cotler-devised "hate" laws have become.
Right on Frustrated Mess! It should also be pointed out that Israel did not keep its side of the bargain to open the borders during the six-month long truce with Hamas.
... Canada's Irwin Cotler-devised "hate" laws ...
That's 3 (and 4, actually).
As someone who is descended from Portuguese Sephardic Jews
The uncertainty of who's who on the Internet.
You could be Jewish and therefore your ascertion that Jews control Hollywood might lose some of its...distastefulness shall we say. Or you could be a skinhead repeating the old anti-Jewish cants under disguise.
In any event, Jews don't control/influence/manipulate Hollywood, banking systems or the media. To say so, regardless of your ethnic/racial/religious background, is anti-semetic.
And that's another reason why we don't need anti-Jewish canards on this board. It gives the pro-Israeli aggressors some talking points.
Has Martin Dufresne been removed? I find the suggestion of nuking people and killing hundreds of thousands of civilians to be repugnant. It is calling for mass murder.
People should try to tone down the language. Exaggerated rhetoric in a volatile situation could encourage physical violence against innocents here whether pro-Israeli or pro-Arab or neutral.
Sephardi, you are a newcomer here, so there is no way of surmising that what you say about your background is correct. That is one of the reasons, among others, that is is important not to post inflammatory and potentially racist material. The other, far more important, is that it does nothing whatsoever to help the Palestinian people. The last thing the Palestine solidarity movement wants is association with neo-Nazis and Jew-Haters (who hate those (racist term for Arabs) just as much).
People who post "hit and run", expecting to be banned, aren't very credible.
By the way, I'm running a fever. I caught a friend's flu (Thanks for your holiday present, friend) - that is why I'm not at our demo.
No one wants to ban you from posting here, Sephardi. I think these are important conversations to have, but I also think that we have to have them in a way that doesn't reinforce stereotypes.
I think it's likely that most people here agree with your point of view regarding Israel, but this discussion forum has been around for years, during which time we've had a wide variety of people here - mostly people who contribute honestly and sincerely to the discussion, but also anti-semites who use Israel discussions as a vehicle for promoting anti-semitic stereotypes (I'm not saying you're one of them - they get banned pretty quickly), and pro-Israel concern trolls who come here simply to spread Israeli propaganda and pretend to be shocked and cry anti-semitism at anything our sincere contributors post here, in order to derail conversations and deflect criticism of Israel.
As a result, most babblers who have been here for a while have learned to choose our words carefully during debates on Israel-Palestine, and to not be sloppy with generalizations or post stuff that could contribute to stereotyping.
I think you're a sincere contributor to babble, but you probably don't realize the history and culture of this forum that has made it the way it is when it comes to discussing Israel-Palestine. It's a delicate balance in this forum. This is why we're asking you to be careful about the way you express your criticism here. It's not about censoring your point of view, which many of us share. It's about not allowing this forum turn into a free-for-all.
From what I've been hearing, most of the mainstream news comment sections, and even most of the supposedly progressive American blogs, are censoring any and all harsh criticism of Israel. A Jewish American friend of mine just got sent hate mail yesterday from some right-wing pro-Israeli racist freak (who is probably a Democrat) for posting criticism of Israel on Daily Kos.
We at rabble, on the other hand, allow criticism of Israel here. Which makes us a magnet for concern trolls and genuine anti-semites. That's why we are cautious about sloppy generalizations and such. It may seem like political correctness to you, but this is the only way we can function without these discussions becoming a free-for-all.
Has Martin Dufresne been removed? I find the suggestion of nuking people and killing hundreds of thousands of civilians to be repugnant. It is calling for mass murder.
People should try to tone down the language. Exaggerated rhetoric in a volatile situation could encourage physical violence against innocents here whether pro-Israeli or pro-Arab or neutral.
Christ, speaking of concern trolling. SCC, last I heard, no one died and appointed you a moderator. A moderator has clearly already stepped in, and past this point, it's really none of your business what happens with Martin Dufresne.
If you don't like what you read here, feel free to find another site to post on. It's a great big internet. You're not welcome to post here if you're just here to concern troll and shadow moderate.
Lagatta pointed out to martin, exactly as SCC did, that his plan would kill hundreds of thousands of people, but there was no censure of Lagatta, just SCC.
Just sayin'.
Once Israel completes its 'mission' in Gaza, what happens next? Will it continue the blockade and maintain a presence in the strip to search for tunnels from Egypt? Pull out completely and the cycle starts all over again? Reach a meaningfull and lasting peace with Hamas and they will live together in harmony?
It's a noodle scratcher.
lagatta addressed Martin directly because she was trying to have a dialogue with him about what he posted. SCC was simply demanding his removal and making general remarks about how everyone should "tone down their language".
Once again, if we ever have a shortage of moderators and decide to bring on a few pro-Israeli concern trolls to help us out, we'll give you and SCC a call. Until then, if you have nothing on topic to contribute to this thread, then don't bother posting anything at all. This is the end of this side discussion - I've already wasted more of my time on this than necessary.
More from the Israeli Press
"The residents of Gaza, and the Palestinians as a whole, say they would like their own state. Yet such state must be earned. And earning a state – a piece of land to call your own – takes much more than incessant whining to the international community coupled with a desire to drive out the Jews. It requires inner strength and the ability to create rather than destroy. This is what Israelis proved time and again for over 60 years, and this is what Palestinians have yet to prove.
Yet before the people of Gaza are able to build, Hamas must be obliterated. Moreover, Hamas' ultimate defeat must not be at the hands of the IDF, but rather, it is an endeavor that must be undertaken by Gaza residents themselves. After all, Hamas is the true reason for their misery."
Hamas has been around only since the 1990s; al Nakba took place in 1948.
Is this what the writer calls "inner strength and the ability to create rather than destroy?"
[see below, past the thread drift]
Once Israel completes its 'mission' in Gaza, what happens next? Will it continue the blockade and maintain a presence in the strip to search for tunnels from Egypt? Pull out completely and the cycle starts all over again? Reach a meaningfull and lasting peace with Hamas and they will live together in harmony?
It's a noodle scratcher.
I´m not sure they even have any longterm objectives, bombing Palestinians seems to be good for a bump in the polls.
Points taken Michelle. As for Objective Observer's misobservation that I somehow accused Jews of running Hollywood, I did not actually say that. What I did was link to a Jewish writer's article that moreorless states the same.
As for whether or not I am genuinely descended from the Sephardim, my surname is listed as being Sephardic on various websites. In order to verify this, an American relative of mine actually went to Lisbon and with the assistance of a Portuguese university student accessed five hundred years of records dealing with the Spanish Inquisition that had recently been declassified. Turned out that our direct ancestor was convicted of the crime of "Judaismo" in the 1600s, imprisioned for two years, converted to Christianity, paid a large fine (or bribe), was released and then fled with his family to France. Some years later, his grandson became part of Lord Baltimore's first colony in Maryland which was the only one of the thirteen original colonies to take Catholics. My family has remained Christian to this day.
I thought the moderator's job was to help discussion continue.
I was just asking a question, an honest one.
No need to insult people.
Quote:
"Lagatta pointed out to martin, exactly as SCC did, that his plan would kill hundreds of thousands of people, but there was no censure of Lagatta, just SCC.
Just sayin'. "
Other quote:
"Once again, if we ever have a shortage of moderators and decide to bring on a few pro-Israeli concern trolls to help us out, we'll give you and SCC a call. Until then, if you have nothing on topic to contribute to this thread, then don't bother posting anything at all. This is the end of this side discussion - I've already wasted more of my time on this than necessary."
P.S. Anyone: What is a concern troll? I am not sure I get the Babble lingo.
Fifty-two
Gazans killed as Israeli forces invade:
aggression on the Gaza Strip on the ninth day of its military
operations in the Gaza Strip. Yesterday, at approximately 7pm, it
started a ground invasion into the northern parts of the Gaza Strip and
the eastern suburbs of Gaza City under heavy bombardment from the air.
Fifty-two people have been killed by the IOF throughout the Gaza Strip
since yesterday evening (seven children and three women). Another 182
have been injured (26 children and 10 women). IOF has continued to show
disregard to the rules of international law relevant to armed conflict,
inflicting severe harm to civilian life and property.
According to the monitoring of Al Mezan Center for Human Rights,
Israeli aircraft bombarded al-Makadma Mosque in Beit Lahia while dozens
of people were praying in it last night. Fifteen people were killed and
25 others injured, as a result. Twenty minutes earlier, Israeli
aircrafts raided the house of Saleh al-Ghoul in Beit Lahia, killing his
25-year-old son, Mahmoud and a relative, 40-year-old Akram Faris
al-Ghoul. A group of neighbors headed to the house in an attempt to aid
the family; however, Israeli planes fired a missile at their car,
injuring six persons. At approximately 9:30pm yesterday, Israeli planes
targeted a group of young men and children as they were protesting the
invasion by burning tires, killing 12-year-old Ahmed Sameeh al-Kafarneh
and injuring 10 others. Medical sources reported that the 10 have
sustained critical wounds.
IOF also continued to target ambulance teams who attempt to collect
the injured. At approximately 10:20am today, an Israeli plane fired a
missile at an ambulance in the west of Beit Lahia, destroying it and
injuring the three of its crew. Two of them sustained critical
wounds.
More at the link.
Michele, I thought your explanation to Sephardi was very commendable: careful and thorough.
Sorry about that. I asked my daughter. I figured out what "concern troll" means.
I don't get it really. What's wrong with being concerned when someone talks about nuking thousands of people?
I thought being concerned for others was a good thing. Never thought it would be used against me as an insult. Sheesh.
Just saying.
On the topic : I am hoping that the current diplomatic mobilization we are starting to see (EU, Turkey and PA in New York) will help convince the Americans to go along with calls for an immediate ceasefire. Naively perhaps, I still believe the UN is the last best hope for solving this.
Events sure seem to have overtaken the relevance of this, and it was even when published hardly a new revelation as the mag seems to be presenting it. But its a far longer treatment than usual
The Gaza Bombshell: Politics & Power
http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804
"After failing to anticipate Hamas’s victory over Fatah in the 2006 Palestinian election, the White House cooked up yet another scandalously covert and self-defeating Middle East debacle: part Iran-contra, part Bay of Pigs. With confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, the author reveals how President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever."
by David Rose April 2008Did anyone else hear what I heard Bush say in his comments about the attacks on Gaza: among other less jarring gems he bald-facedly said that "Hamas is a terrorist organization that took power in Gaza through a coup". (I guess Condi wasn't around to prep him on the historical truth; or was it that people like Carter attested to the integrity of the elections?)
His lasting legacy: poster-child for pathological mendacity.
One thing that surprises me is related to the article posted by FRustrated Mess about the lack of academic response in the US (and Canada, I suppose).
I can understand to an extent that this current phase of the Israeli-Palestinian war happened over the Xmas/New Year season so that not every academic leader or professor organization spokesperson is around.
I can also understand many people being cautious about not wanting to sound pro-Hamas because of its idelogical leanings.
But it is suprising that no one is speaking out from the cultural and academic worlds, even in the most moderate way, about the damage to schools and clinics and civilian institutions.
I mean, one does not need to be heavily political to speak out for basic humanitarian considerations.
The fact that Israeli and Palestinian leaders appear to be or are instransigent and ready to use violence is one thing. I can see why many people don't want to support any political position in this conflict because all the positions may appear wrong or dangerous or disastrous or extremist or because people simply no longer know whom to believe.
But the silence about the human dimensions of the suffering by civilians is what continues to get to me.
Naively perhaps, I still believe the UN is the last best hope for solving this.
Naive perhaps ... since the US controls the UN Security Council.
It is my belief, based on info from a Palestinian friend in Canada, that the US has 'agentes provocateurs' in Gaza, firing/encouraging the so-called 'Hamas' rockets, to justify Israel's attacks and the eventual destruction of the Palestinian state.
Just call me 'UsedToBeNaive'
Oh, I think the (eventual) suffering of Israel civilians is getting ample media exposure.
I still believe it is up to the UN. No one else has any better ideas. Israeli and Palestinian leaders are just driving their own peoples into a ditch, they won't stop it.
So, it is up to the diplomats. Maybe the US will catch up one day.
P.S. comment addressed to Saga
Closing for length