Gaza, Israel (III)

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saga saga's picture
Gaza, Israel (III)

[url=http://rabble.ca/comment/975797/I-still-believe-it]Last post from last thread[/url]

 

it's nice to think that Obama will end all of the US aggression for oil but unrealistic, since the aggression has continued through both Democrat and Republican governments.

 

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Quote:
I still believe it is up to the UN. No one else has any better ideas.

Sure there are better ideas. Here's one: The US should stop funding and enabling Israel's massacres, occupation, and oppression of the Palestinian people. Just stop funding and arming them. Easy.

Brendan Stone

Here is an interesting tidbit from a Hamilton Spectator article about a Gaza rally:

 

"Meanwhile, Bakri Abdalla, a former Darfur refugee, came to the rally to show his support for Israel. He carried two signs that said "Israel stood by Darfur. 200,000 killed. 4 million displaced by Arab militias." He was peppered with comments by some rally participants, but was largely ignored."

 

http://www.thespec.com/News/Local/article/490041

Jingles

I like the casual lies that are repeated over and over as truth:

 

Quote:
Israel began its bombardment last weekend in response to Hamas militant missiles flying into its territory from the Gaza Strip. Hundreds have been killed, mostly Gaza residents.

They make it sound like it was the militants that killed the "residents". 

remind remind's picture

Had a short 'conversation' last evening with a religious fundamentalist who was carrying on about Israel fulfilling it's "rightful" and "God given" mandate to  expand it's territories in order to bring about the Biblical prophecy regarding the end of days. He even went so far as to say ALL peoples in Gaza deserve what they were getting for going against "God's" dictates, yes even the children or "God would not have placed them there".

It got ugly pretty quick, when I challenged his contentions, however, it was insightful to see how far the operant conditioning amongst the "Christian" religious fundamentalists has gone and how complicit they are in the slaying of Palestinians.  

___________________________________________________________

"watching the tide roll away"

Refuge Refuge's picture

I have a question upon reading this and the previous thread. I was under the impression that there were Hamas rockets ( not commenting on who was really behind it just the fact that there were ) being fired on a daily basis.

Saga wrote:

It is my belief, based on info from a Palestinian friend in Canada, that the US has 'agentes provocateurs' in Gaza, firing/encouraging the so-called 'Hamas' rockets, to justify Israel's attacks and the eventual destruction of the Palestinian state.

But then I read this comment.....

Frustrated Mess wrote:

There have been no rockets fired from the West Bank

and others supporting it.

I would like to say first that I am not saying whether the invasion is right or wrong ( I am still not sure how I feel about what is going on ) but I just want to know if there were rockets that were fired ( I heard on a regular basis ) or not before all of this started.

saga saga's picture

Refuge wrote:
I have a question upon reading this and the previous thread. I was under the impression that there were Hamas rockets ( not commenting on who was really behind it just the fact that there were ) being fired on a daily basis.
Saga wrote:

It is my belief, based on info from a Palestinian friend in Canada, that the US has 'agentes provocateurs' in Gaza, firing/encouraging the so-called 'Hamas' rockets, to justify Israel's attacks and the eventual destruction of the Palestinian state.


But then I read this comment.....
Frustrated Mess wrote:

There have been no rockets fired from the West Bank


and others supporting it.
I would like to say first that I am not saying whether the invasion is right or wrong ( I am still not sure how I feel about what is going on ) but I just want to know if there were rockets that were fired ( I heard on a regular basis ) or not before all of this started.

Rockets are fired from Gaza, but not from the West Bank. 

Ghislaine

Refuge wrote:
I have a question upon reading this and the previous thread. I was under the impression that there were Hamas rockets ( not commenting on who was really behind it just the fact that there were ) being fired on a daily basis.
Saga wrote:

It is my belief, based on info from a Palestinian friend in Canada, that the US has 'agentes provocateurs' in Gaza, firing/encouraging the so-called 'Hamas' rockets, to justify Israel's attacks and the eventual destruction of the Palestinian state.


But then I read this comment.....
Frustrated Mess wrote:

There have been no rockets fired from the West Bank


and others supporting it.
I would like to say first that I am not saying whether the invasion is right or wrong ( I am still not sure how I feel about what is going on ) but I just want to know if there were rockets that were fired ( I heard on a regular basis ) or not before all of this started.

 I am not sure if you are being sincere with this question, as this information is widely available via google. 

 Here is a link to a story on some rockets fired November (and also about Israel cutting off aid)

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LD110824.htm

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

There have been rockets fired from Gaza, all, ostensibly, in response to provacations such as assassinations and assualts. Gaza is ruled by Hamas. The West Bank is ruled by Fatah and Abbas who was selected by Israel and the Americans as their puppet. No rockets are fired from the West Bank. Yet, while the very conditions that Israel and the US demand from Palestinians exist in the West Bank, West Bank Palestinians are still subject to brutal treatment and the land seizures continue. Everything the US/Israelis promise the Palestinians is a lie to earn thier acquiesence while the noose is tightened.

remind remind's picture

Well, I am not as up to speed as many here are, but from what I understand there was a sieze fire in place, and apparently NO rockets were being fired from Gaza during this period.

A person I know, just got back from Israel, after spending 3 weeks there in December and she recounted to me that there were absolutely NO attacks upon Israel while she was there on holiday. She, being a "Christian" fundamentalist, believes that abscence was because God was protecting her while she made her pilgrimage, and thousands of other "Christians" too.

So, from that ancedotal personal source information, and the other reports I have read, I believe there were NO daily attacks taking place by Hamas leading up to this.

___________________________________________________________
"watching the tide roll away"

Unionist

Note that Refuge doesn't want to know whether there were Israeli attacks and incursions and sieges and blockades and targeted assassinations in Gaza "before all of this started".

Refuge only wants to know whether Hamas was firing rockets "before all of this started".

That will help Refuge make up her mind how she feels about this invasion, because the 400 dead Gazans haven't achieved that yet.

ETA: And remind, unfortunately, walks into that trap, by citing some anecdotal evidence - which happens to be inaccurate.

Ghislaine

remind wrote:

Well, I am not as up to speed as many here are, but from what I understand there was a sieze fire in place, and apparently NO rockets were being fired from Gaza during this period.

A person I know, just got back from Israel, after spending 3 weeks there in December and she recounted to me that there were absolutely NO attacks upon Israel while she was there on holiday. She, being a "Christian" fundamentalist, believes that abscence was because God was protecting her while she made her pilgrimage, and thousands of other "Christians" too.

So, from that ancedotal personal source information, and the other reports I have read, I believe there were NO daily attacks taking place by Hamas leading up to this.

___________________________________________________________
"watching the tide roll away"

 

Your are wrong. Read the link I posted above and this:http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/para/hamas-qassam.htm

 

3,278 rockets and mortar shells in 2008 alone. 

Unionist

So remind, what are we saying here - if Hamas fired some rockets before the invasion, then the invasion is justified?

Please don't quote anecdotal evidence here. It just makes room for the champions of Israeli aggression.

Unionist

Whoops, here comes Ghislaine, in the old one-two punch.

Gee whiz, how come I didn't predict that?

 

martin dufresne

How would we feel about a discussion of the Warshaw Ghetto massacre being limited to whether White Rose resistants did or didn't harm a few Nazis at the time?

_______________

Let's hope for the best from the Knesset and the Pentagon.

Refuge Refuge's picture

Reposting this as I received some more responses which make my original post irrelevant-

Unionist - the reason I did not mention Isreal is because I know they attacked. I was under the impression that there were also attacks from the Hamas but read some here saying there weren't, I wanted to make sure I have the right information.

Some are saying there were strikes and some are saying they respected the cease fiream I am not sure what the case is. The media reports it but it is also very pro Isrealy so I don't know to trust it.

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Quote:

Brave, bave Israel On Sunday, Palestinian Health Minister Dr Fathi Abumoghli said the
Israeli military was restricting the movement of ambulances, leading to
casualties dying before they could receive treatment. One doctor and
two paramedics had been killed, he said.

Later, the charity Oxfam also said a paramedic working for a
partner organisation had been killed and two others injured by an
Israeli shell.

Oxfam also complained that the "trickle of humanitarian aid
that Israel has sometimes allowed in" had dried up since the start of
the ground offensive, and said it had been forced to suspend its work,
apart from emergency medical aid.

BBC

Ghislaine

The ground invasion is not justified in the least by the rocket attacks. That does not mean that the rocket and mortar attacks are not facts, that they were not aimed directly at civilians or that Hamas is some freedom fighting peaceful group. See ing photos of people in Toronto waving the Hezbollah flag (complete with AK-47) and some of the more disgusting signs about Jews disgusted me. I want the Israeli invasion to stop and the world to tell them this (not much hope of this from Iggy or Harper), however I could not bring myself to attend a rally with elements of actual Hamas support.

Not only is Israel killing large numbers of civilians, but they are going to inevitably increase the support for Hamas.  One thing is for sure - the impotence and uselessness of the UN is certainly apparent. Re-structuring is required for it to have any sort of usefulness. How many security resolutions have been ignored in this region over the past 10-20 years? 

Ghislaine

martin dufresne wrote:

How would we feel about a discussion of the Warshaw Ghetto massacre being limited to whether White Rose resistants did or didn't harm a few Nazis at the time?

_______________

Let's hope for the best from the Knesset and the Pentagon.

 

Are you calling Israeli civilians, some of who who are children, Nazis? Very nice coming from the poster who advocated nuking the Knesset and Pentagon. 

Objective Observer

What the world needs is a solution that allows Israel to live in peace with it neighbours, that allows for a viable Palestinian country, and that removes any mention of 'wiping out' Israel from the lexicon of any of the world's leaders or movements. Without all three there will never be peace in the region.

Any suggestions?

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Quote:
Not only is Israel killing large numbers of civilians, but they are going to inevitably increase the support for Hamas.

But according to much of the analysis that is exactly Israel's aim. Because then they can justify all manner of inhumanity against innocent Palestinian civilians from caging them, starving them, to boming them, and massacaring them -- as is self-evident.

By focusing on Hamas rather than the criminal Israeli policy of inhumanity, brutality,  and murder is to fall into the PR trap the Zionists have set for you. As has been made abundantly clear by so many and some so very, very, strongly: THIS IS NOT ABOUT HAMAS! IT IS ABOUT A COLONIAL PROJECT OF DISPOSSESSION AND GENOCIDE BACKED BY THE US AND OUR OWN GOVERNMENT. Is that clear enough?

 

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Quote:
What the world needs is a solution that allows Israel to live in peace with it neighbours

Israel is working on that right now. It is called Extermination. You must be filled with joy.

Ghislaine

Frustrated Mess wrote:

Quote:
Not only is Israel killing large numbers of civilians, but they are going to inevitably increase the support for Hamas.

But according to much of the analysis that is exactly Israel's aim. Because then they can justify all manner of inhumanity against innocent Palestinian civilians from caging them, starving them, to boming them, and massacaring them -- as is self-evident.

By focusing on Hamas rather than the criminal Israeli policy of inhumanity, brutality,  and murder is to fall into the PR trap the Zionists have set for you. As has been made abundantly clear by so many and some so very, very, strongly: THIS IS NOT ABOUT HAMAS! IT IS ABOUT A COLONIAL PROJECT OF DISPOSSESSION AND GENOCIDE BACKED BY THE US AND OUR OWN GOVERNMENT. Is that clear enough?

 

 

It is about Hamas as well though. Hamas is in the thread title and is part of the discussion.  There have been reports that Hamas is imprisoning and beating Fatah supporters since the Israeli offensive began. Hamas was involved in a bloody civil dispute in 2007 with Fatah. However, one thing that the neocon proIsraeli agression type never discuss is that Hamas does not represent all of Palestine and that the majority of Palestinians simply want to live in peace with their children. 

 I am a supporter of a two-state solution with permanent and fair borders that are internationally (and especially Israeli) recognized.  If this occured a peaceful future would be possible. Palestine has a very young population, I believe 50% are under age 15. This is naive, I know, and looks increasingly impossible. I cannot pretend to know Israel's true motivations, but it seems ridiculous to me. The one thing we can say with certainty is that it involves the upcoming election and the related posturing. 

Unionist

Ghislaine wrote:

The ground invasion is not justified in the least by the rocket attacks. That does not mean that the rocket and mortar attacks are not facts, that they were not aimed directly at civilians or that Hamas is some freedom fighting peaceful group.

Are you going for the Einstein Prize for brilliance here?

Quote:
Seeing photos of people in Toronto waving the Hezbollah flag (complete with AK-47) and some of the more disgusting signs about Jews disgusted me.

What did they say about Jews? Enlighten me.

You're showing a far higher emotional level of disgust at photos of a Toronto demo than at what Israel is doing in Gaza. This is typical of your posting behaviour, however.

 

oldgoat

Ghislaine, I am one of the most patient people I know.  Really, I'm a total fucking saint.  You're even starting to get on my nerves with this one point you've been stuck on.  

Do you even bother to read the posts and links that others have worked so hard to provide?  Have you bothered to consider the current and historical context of this confict which, had you never even heard of it before, there is a wealth of excellent information and references provided on these threads.  You might give some thought to the question asked by Martin above, two posts down from yours.

 Your dogged persistance in refusing to aknowledge, or even apparently read the other posts in this and related threads is annoying as hell and bordering on disrespectful.  

If you really actually are of the belief that the actions of the Israeli gov't and the IDF is justified based on  Hamas rocket attacks under these circumstances, and you believe that you can both morally and intellectually make that argument, then give it a shot and see what comes of it.  Stop asking stupid passive agressive questions about possible protests about Hamas rockets and if they're being fired.  You can find this out on your own, 'cause you're sure not listening to anyone here.

 

 

This is a tagline. It has nothing to do with the comments posted above. Just a tagline...really. Please disregard.

al-Qa'bong

The Gaza Ghetto Uprising

" A veritable open alliance now exists between the Palestinian Collaborationist Authority, Arab regimes, and Israel with the support of neoliberal Arab intellectuals, wherein Israel is subcontracted to decimate the Hamas government -- the only democratically elected government in the entire Arab world.

 Here let us remember that Hamas was democratically elected in free elections and that its elected officials and members of parliament were kidnapped by the Israeli occupation and have been languishing in Israeli jails for years, and that the Palestinian Collaborationist Authority set their offices on fire, staged strikes against them, and signaled the PCA bureaucracy not to follow their orders.

It was after all this failed to dislodge Hamas from power that the US, Israel, and the PCA staged a coup to massacre Hamas leaders in Gaza that backfired on them. The carnage unleashed by Israel in the last 10 days is the latest attempt by Israel to ensure that all Arabs and all Palestinians are ruled by dictators and never by democratically elected officials.

...The Jewish resistance in the Warsaw Ghetto executed Jewish collaborators with the Nazis and bravely faced up to the Nazi army with what little weapons it had before being massacred. Their uprising was always inspirational to the Palestinians. In the heyday of the PLO as a symbol of Palestinian liberation, the organization would lay flower wreathes at the Warsaw Ghetto monument to honor these fallen Jewish heroes."

Unionist

Smile

If you think this is stupid and passive-aggressive, you're forgetting classic threads like [url=this">http://www.rabble.ca/babble/international-news-and-politics/nebraska-you... one[/url]. Everyone wasted their time patiently explaining things, as if she didn't understand - but she just wanted to peddle her anti-choice position without waking the moderators.

Same thing here - only now, we're talking about the mass slaughter of Palestinians, and she's hooking up with some of our "new" guests to justfiy it.

Oh well, I guess it sort of reproduces in microcosm the difficulty the Palestinian people have in getting their story across, when the MSM and the world's great powers and Israel itself spread all this disinformation non-stop.

Ghislaine

I wrote that I do not think the Israeli offensive is justified. Not in the least.

Objective Observer

I feel so sad for the little ones in this conflict. They're always the ones who suffer the most.

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Quote:
It is about Hamas as well though.

No it is not. There was an excellent article already posted on babble that maybe you ought to read. I won't make you hunt for it. Here is an excerpt:

 

Strip
away the clichés and the vacuous newspeak blaring out across the
servile media and its pathetic corps of voluntary state servants in the
Western world and what you will find is the naked desire for hegemony;
for power over the weak and dominion over the world’s wealth. Worse yet
you will find that the selfishness, the hatred and indifference, the
racism and bigotry, the egotism and hedonism that we try so hard to
cover up with our sophisticated jargon, our refined academic theories
and models actually help to guide our basest and ugliest desires. The
callousness with which we in indulge in them all are endemic to our
very culture; thriving here like flies on a corpse.

Strip
away the current symbols and language of the victims of our selfish and
devastating whims and you will find the simple, impassioned and
unaffected cries of the downtrodden; of the ‘wretched of the earth’
begging you to cease your cold aggression against their children and
their homes; their families and their villages; begging you to leave
them alone to have their fish and their bread, their oranges, their
olives and their thyme; asking you first politely and then with
increasing disbelief why you cannot let them live undisturbed on the
land of their ancestors; unexploited, free of the fear of expulsion; of
ravishment and devastation; free of permits and roadblocks and
checkpoints and crossings; of monstrous concrete walls, guard towers,
concrete bunkers, and barbed wire; of tanks and prisons and torture and
death. Why is life without these policies and instruments of hell
impossible?

If Hamas Did Not Exist

By JENNIFER LOEWENSTEIN

 

SCC

I obviously don't have the same history people here have but I do not understand the tone here.

Ghislaine and Observer have stated they are against the Israeli aggression. Observer said he wants an Israeli state at peace (i.e. not bombing people into submission) and a viable Palestinian state (i.e not an open besieged prison camp or a Bantustan).

Is there something I have missed about the debate or isn't this what the international community has been calling for all along? Because an Israel at peace, and a Palestine at peace and no one calling for bludgeoning any one else into submission sounds pretty good to me.

Did I miss something?

 

Anyway, this is becoming too heated for me. I said what I had to say: I hope the Un can talk sense into the leaders of Israel and Hamas and achieve a ceasefire and stop killing people. Sounds like a good start to me. We have to start somewhere. After that, maybe peace talks can start again. Yeah, so I am naive. Big fxxxxxx deal. I would rather be "concerned" with ordinary people not being killed than be ideologically correct.

Most people are sick of the blame game - it is called a "cycle" of violence for a reason with each side arguing to justify themselves that they are only responding to the evil deeds of the Zionist or American or Crusader or Islamofascist or terrorist or Iran-inspired enemy.

Most Canadian are sick of it. A plague on both their houses.

Enough said. 

 

 

Unionist

SCC wrote:

I obviously don't have the same history people here have but I do not understand the tone here.

It's called "B sharp".

Glad to help.

 

SCC

Thanks Unionist. I needed a bit of humour.

SCC

Sorry. I don't like to lose it. That was more of a rant than I am used to. I hope people don't think I was over the top.

KenS

Ghislaine wrote:
I wrote that I do not think the Israeli offensive is justified. Not in the least.

 You did. But you persistently demonize Hamas as if without Hamas Israel would have no need /excuse to attempt the obliteration of Hamas as a government and organization.

You NEVER comment when people patiently address you with points that Abbas and Fatah in the West Bank still get the iron fist when they roll over and play dead for Israel. Nor when the point is REPEATEDLY made- and now appears even in mainstream media- that Israel will settle for nothing less then the complete elimination of Hamas: was not and now openly admits that it is not interested even in the one sided Palestinian suppression arrangements that we call 'truces'.

Instead, you always return to your obvious agenda of seeing that Hamas gets a share of the blame... of course with the pro forma passive aggressive "I'm against the invasion", etc.

KenS

Ghislaine wrote:

It is about Hamas as well though. Hamas is in the thread title and is part of the discussion.  There have been reports that Hamas is imprisoning and beating Fatah supporters since the Israeli offensive began. Hamas was involved in a bloody civil dispute in 2007 with Fatah. However, one thing that the neocon proIsraeli agression type never discuss is that Hamas does not represent all of Palestine and that the majority of Palestinians simply want to live in peace with their children.   

Here is just the most recent example of your disengenuous agenda. Full of facts of course. Such as rockets from Gaza [duh]. But completely stripped of context- and you don't even bother to reply when people critique you with that contex.

In this case we have the facts you like- about Hamas imprisoning and beating Fatah supporters. Which happens a good deal. But you neglect to bother knowing [hearing] that Fatah practiced systematic detention, torture and killing of Hamas supporters until they were booted out of Gaza when they overplayed their hand and tried to eliminate Hamas.

 And then the bullshit canard of "Hamas does not represent all of Palestine". Do you know of a government that represents all the people of a country? What about this little thing of recognition of legitimately elected governments? Not to mention what inevitably occurs when you try to go around them. Not to mention when you try to eliminate them by force [and then fail].

And amazing that Palestinians are like other people- wanting to live in peace with their children. The question you conveniently overlook is that people have to figure out how. Of course you and most of the "West"- with a little advisory hope- know what they must want... for Hamas to go away.

You know what- people voted for Hamas by a strong majority. And even now, there is no evidence that Gazans want to be 'liberated' from Hamas.

 Now I wonder why that might be?

Do you suppose it might have siomething to do with people knowing the alternative- Israel endlessly seizing what land and water rights are left? And other little trifles.

And you dare to find the comparison to Warsaw Ghetto offensive. Jews of the Ghetto were more crushed than Palestinians are now in Ghetto.

Do you propose that Palestinians also wait for the very bitter end before they make their decision to fight back, with whatever means are left to them.

Jingles

Quote:
 I said what I had to say: I hope the Un can talk sense into the leaders of Israel and Hamas and achieve a ceasefire and stop killing people. 

If my wife burns my dinner, I am justified in punishing her. Why won't she just learn to stop burning my dinner so I won't be forced to teach her a lesson? I use restraint when I beat her up, but she still won't listen. I am the victim here.

Does that sound about right? 

LeighT

as the first post in this thread above here mentions fossil fuels, i thought it would be useful to revisit this article of Amy Goodman's:

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2008/12/3/amy_goodmans_new_column_chevron_in_the_white_house

namely, Chevron in the White House.

Chevron is also in Canada.  and in our trade deals.  and in finance.  and is profitting well now. 

it's really worth it i think to consider that corporations, and particularly those in the energy field, have more power now than nations.  Chevron and associated financiers and companies have much profit to make if they can get more control of global fossil fuel reserves, and water resources, land, minerals, etc.

at this particularly point in time, when we have not yet restructured the global economy away from financier/investor rule, they're using all their resources to stir up regional hatreds.  i could go with other examples, am sure people on rabble could list many examples, and have already.

just wondering if we can make a potentially stronger contribution by focussing on and debating these aspects of the current moment. 

 

KenS

I posted this at the end of the previous thread. Here's some of that truth that Ghislaine and others don't want to bother with. As long an article as it is, and as cynical as it shows the US and Israel to be, and how the Palestinians can't win even when they "cooperate" and give way... its just one small stage in the US-Israeli grand game of attempting to impose a Palestinian government who will give them everything they want.

The other recurring 'stage' being that when the US and Israel do not get their way... which is inevitable... they flatten the uncompliant government of the moment [be they Fatha or Hamas], and kill hundreds and thousands in the 'regrettable' 'collateral damage'.

Obviously we're in the kill and flatten stage right now. But just as a reminder here's one of the most recent repeat of the lead up stages.  [Not as recent as further tightening the blockade of Gaza so that the renewal of Israel's truce with Hamas was impossible.]

 

 The Gaza Bombshell: Politics & Power

 http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804

"After failing to anticipate Hamas’s victory over Fatah in the 2006 Palestinian election, the White House cooked up yet another scandalously covert and self-defeating Middle East debacle: part Iran-contra, part Bay of Pigs. With confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, the author reveals how President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever."

 

by David Rose April 2008

Cueball Cueball's picture

SCC wrote:

Most people are sick of the blame game - it is called a "cycle" of violence for a reason with each side arguing to justify themselves that they are only responding to the evil deeds of the Zionist or American or Crusader or Islamofascist or terrorist or Iran-inspired enemy.

But you see it is not a "cycle of violence".  The occupation is violence. This is not a series of vendettas. The cycle of violence meme is just a way that outside observers allow themselves to ignore the occupation that is the root violence of the conflict, and avoid taking a political position on it.

Far from being a reasonable summary of the situation, it is banal ignorance, and in fact a form of appologia and ignorance, reinforced by lop-sided media representation, and indeed direct Israeli control of media reporting in the Occupied Territories.

The debate above shows this fact clearly. On the one hand Hamas fires rockets into Gaza, on occassion and for various reason. Israel uses this as a pretext for intensifying the occupation, and engaging in mass destruction and assaults upon the Palestinian population.

But, looking at the West Bank, we see that the population has been relatively passive over the last 2 years. Did the occupation there end? No.

Between 1994 and 1999,  after the first Intifada, Palestinian violence ebbed to a level where in 1996, only 4 Israelis were killed by Palestinians. Did the occupation end? No.

In fact between 1967 and 1987, there was hardly any indiginous violent revolt against the occupation in any of the occupied territories, except for very isolated attacks by some radical leftist outfits. Did the occupation end? No.

One should consider this point: Palestinians in the occupied territories were quite for the better part of 20 years, after the 1967 war. Then after years of passivity, and continued occupation and marshal law, and increased Israeli settlement, it blew up in 1987 with the FIRST intifada.

They called it the first, because it was the first revolt. 20 years after the occupation began.

Here is an interesting stat about the Oslo period: During the Oslo period, Israelis killed Palestinians at 10 times the rate that Palestinians killed Israelis. During the periods of revolt, that statistic drops. So that Israeli's kill 3 Palestinians for every Israeli killed. In other words, statistically speaking the relative use of violence by the IDF in relationship to Palestinian acts of violence increases in times when the Palestinians are more passive.

The overall level of violence increases, to be sure, but the ratio of killings changes in the favour of the Palestinians.

What gets noticed in the west, and what Israel plays up for the Western media, is the periods when Palestinian violence occurs. What never gets talked about is ongoing and continuous Israeli violence, which happens regardless if Palestinian militants are active.

The relative amount of Palestinian violence, has no relationship to wether or not Israel continues the occupation, or commits unreasonable violence against the Palestinians.

remind remind's picture

Unionist wrote:
So remind, what are we saying here - if Hamas fired some rockets before the invasion, then the invasion is justified?
Nope just saying for a 3 week period over the holidays, both jewish and christian, there was apparently no attacks while the mayor from here was there, at least that she heard of.

Quote:
Please don't quote anecdotal evidence here. It just makes room for the champions of Israeli aggression.

They need no excuse.

___________________________________________________________
"watching the tide roll away"

KeyStone

How to Exterminate:

Step 1: Pretend you are interested in the peace process.
Step 2: Deny all human rights and voice to the people.
Step 3: Wait patiently for them to raise a hand against you.
Step 4: Send in the tanks against those 'agressors'.

saga saga's picture

LeighT wrote:

as the first post in this thread above here mentions fossil fuels, i thought it would be useful to revisit this article of Amy Goodman's:

http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2008/12/3/amy_goodmans_new_column_chevron_in_the_white_house

namely, Chevron in the White House.

Chevron is also in Canada. and in our trade deals. and in finance. and is profitting well now.

it's really worth it i think to consider that corporations, and particularly those in the energy field, have more power now than nations. Chevron and associated financiers and companies have much profit to make if they can get more control of global fossil fuel reserves, and water resources, land, minerals, etc.

at this particularly point in time, when we have not yet restructured the global economy away from financier/investor rule, they're using all their resources to stir up regional hatreds. i could go with other examples, am sure people on rabble could list many examples, and have already.

just wondering if we can make a potentially stronger contribution by focussing on and debating these aspects of the current moment.

Absolutely. It's all about corporate control of the world's resources via their paid puppet governments and military, and 'agentes provocateurs' rocket launchers and paid media to create excuses for atrocities, imo.

Ghislaine said 50% of Palestinians are under 15? I question the accuracy of that, but if that trend is apparent, it speaks of genocide.

It is entirely appropriate to look at the big picture because it is the same  corporate aggression for resources in all conflict areas.

 

 

 

Cueball Cueball's picture

Good summary.

KeyStone

Saga,

I don't think the Israelis are going to kill their own people. Besides which, they don't really need to. 

If the IDF has killed your father and three of your sisters and brothers, it doesn't take much for you to fire a rocket over the border.

Given the history of the conflict, there will always be Palestinians eager to get revenge on Israel. The problem with Israel's proposed 'peace process' is that it doesn't take into account the fact that there will always be some stray rockets. If there is one rocket, they declare the whole process null and void. 

When the Israelis sit down at the bargaining table, they dismiss anyone who has the power to stop all the attacks - since that means that they are in league with the terrorists. But, if they can't stop the terrorist attacks - that means that they are irrelevant and not worth talking to. 

Cueball Cueball's picture

KeyStone wrote:

Given the history of the conflict, there will always be Palestinians eager to get revenge on Israel. The problem with Israel's proposed 'peace process' is that it doesn't take into account the fact that there will always be some stray rockets. If there is one rocket, they declare the whole process null and void. 

 Of course, the demand that there should be a complete ceassation of violence, before negotiation takes place is a rejection of a negotiated peace process. It is even simply, on a semantic level, absurd, since if there was no violence, there would be peace. There would be no need for a peace process if their was peace. The explicit purpose of a negotiated peace process, is a process that brings about peace, when there is conflict.

If the US had demanded an absolute ceassation of hostilities as a prerequisite for negotiations with the Japanese, WWII would not have ended until the ferreted out the last Japanese soldier out form the Pacific Islands in 1979.

NorthReport

You've done one hell of a job, Georgie.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/04/gaza200804

 

"The Gaza Bombshell

 

After failing to anticipate Hamas’s victory over Fatah in the 2006 Palestinian election, the White House cooked up yet another scandalously covert and self-defeating Middle East debacle: part Iran-contra, part Bay of Pigs. With confidential documents, corroborated by outraged former and current U.S. officials, the author reveals how President Bush, Condoleezza Rice, and Deputy National-Security Adviser Elliott Abrams backed an armed force under Fatah strongman Muhammad Dahlan, touching off a bloody civil war in Gaza and leaving Hamas stronger than ever."

 

 

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Quote:
Canada
on Sunday urged a "sustainable and durable" ceasefire in Gaza, a day
after Israeli troops poured into the embattled territory, and called
for a halt to rocket attacks from Hamas.

"Canada is deeply concerned by the increase in hostilities between Israel and Hamas," said Foreign Minister Lawrence Cannon in a statement.

"We urge renewed international diplomatic efforts to achieve a
sustainable and durable ceasefire, starting with the halting of all
rocket attacks on Israel."

That is the coolest thing.  Lawrence Cannon's lips move and State Department talking points come out. Where are the strings?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090104/wl_canada_afp/mideastconflictgazaca...

Frustrated Mess Frustrated Mess's picture

Quote:

Gordon Brown called for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza yesterday after a rare
split with America at the United Nations.

Hours after the United States blocked an attempt by Britain to make the UN
Security Council issue a ceasefire call, Mr Brown told the BBC: “We need an
immediate ceasefire. The blame game can continue afterwards, but this
dangerous moment, I think, requires us to act.”

Britain shows some moral courage. Canada's puppets continue snivelling.

NorthReport

Too bad no one in power in both the US & Israel is listening to the rabbi.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article5446519.ece

"It breaks my heart to see Israel's stupidity
It has a right to respond to attacks, but will not achieve its ultimate aim - peace - until it stops thinking in military terms"

SCC

Pretty powerful stuff by the rabbi. I don't believe in any deity, but maybe religious voices are those that need to speak up about the Middle East since a lot of the intransigent and maximalist rhetoric about beating each other into a pulp has taken on religious tones.

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