Greece #3

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shartal@rogers.com

It seems to me that much of this discussion obfuscates the central issue.

Underlying the "debt crisis " Is the essence of capitalism. The "bailouts" are not gifts. They are loans. They are loans with interest. They are loans with interest because it is the nature of capitalist lending to make money.

Greece cannot pay back the loans. From a capitalist perspective they are a very bad lending risk. There is very little that can be done within a capitalist system to make them a better lending risk.

For the last at least 40 years and Grace has been a cronyism state in which the wealthy did not pay real taxes and nobody seriously tried to collect those monies owed. However with a strong and militant working class the political compromise was to expand the public state.

Greece's primary incomes are from tourism, and agricultural products like olives and olive oil. Many families stay afloat through remissions received from family members working abroad. Within capitalism this kind of national economy does not generate a large tax base.

Greece has very few high value added industries.

Within this comes the world recession. If Greeece were a family farm they would bankrupt and no bank would lend them any more money.

Even the IMF have conceded that Greece cannot repay the debt it already owes. Therefore the alternatives are either significant debt reduction or state bankruptcy.

shartal@rogers.com

It seems to me that much of this discussion obfuscates the central issue.

Underlying the "debt crisis " Is the essence of capitalism. The "bailouts" are not gifts. They are loans. They are loans with interest. They are loans with interest because it is the nature of capitalist lending to make money.

Greece cannot pay back the loans. From a capitalist perspective they are a very bad lending risk. There is very little that can be done within a capitalist system to make them a better lending risk.

For the last at least 40 years and Grace has been a cronyism state in which the wealthy did not pay real taxes and nobody seriously tried to collect those monies owed. However with a strong and militant working class the political compromise was to expand the public state.

Greece's primary incomes are from tourism, and agricultural products like olives and olive oil. Many families stay afloat through remissions received from family members working abroad. Within capitalism this kind of national economy does not generate a large tax base.

Greece has very few high value added industries.

Within this comes the world recession. If Greeece were a family farm they would bankrupt and no bank would lend them any more money.

Even the IMF have conceded that Greece cannot repay the debt it already owes. Therefore the alternatives are either significant debt reduction or state bankruptcy.

shartal@rogers.com

Sorry for the doible post

Sean in Ottawa

There are many Greeks including Tsipras who conisder leaving the Euro a non-option.

If you really want to understand this you may have to ask yourself why that is. (Not just say he is wrong but wonder why he thinks this.)

I think it is becuase:

Tsipras understands that Greece has no negotiating power and will be at the mercy of lenders for some time as it tries to make some reforms it needs in order to effectively declare independence again. He may well feel that even thoguh Greece is being hurt by Europe -- remaining in Europe is the best way to get solidarity from other countries -- to get others to support what they need from the outside community. He may fee that if Greece leaves, the rest of the world will share nothing but a bit of pity. Greeks (not just Tsipras) are emotional about their connection to Europe -- they feel that they need this relationship. They are upset at Germany which is ruled by a right wing government) but it may not always be ruled by a right wing government. Greeks believe that if they leave Europe now they will never get back in. They are worried that if theya re outside it will not be like it was before the union. Europe is a trading block -- once created you have to be inside or excluded. Finally he fears the chaotic exit and what that would mean to their society. He fears civil war -- a country in this much trouble is always close to such a calamity.

Tsipras and many Greeks fear a Greece that is a broken country outside of any block or community and without any advocates. He is not wrong in my view. The support he has had among some European members is precisely becuase Greece is in the Europe Union. The key for Greece is fixing the European Union -- not leaving it. In the meantime the short term pain with the forced agenda and the bailout is not worse than without the short term bailout and without the agenda. It is not sustainable -- we all know that but he will have to work within the EU to build alliances -- not sit outside in a catatstrophic melt-down and nobody to talk to.

This is why I do not attack him as others do here. I realize how bad it is but I do not credit the other choice with the value some others here do.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
This is why I do not attack him as others do here. I realize how bad it is but I do not credit the other choice with the value some others here do.

So a fair question to ask you and those who agree with you: Isn't it true that you must support the current Greek government doing "whatever is necessary" [including killing protestors] to enforce the austerity since the alternative has been rejected in principle?

Sean in Ottawa

ikosmos wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:
This is why I do not attack him as others do here. I realize how bad it is but I do not credit the other choice with the value some others here do.

So a fair question to ask you and those who agree with you: Isn't it true that you must support the current Greek government doing "whatever is necessary" [including killing protestors] to enforce the austerity since the alternative has been rejected in principle?

Of course not -- what a silly question.

I support the democratically elected governemnt of Greece in a difficult situation -- does not mean I agree with and support every individual decision. Nor does it mean that I even have the particulars to judge fault in every situation. (Who made what decision based on whose authority and why.)

I need to know that a government is clearly not working in the people's interest to change my mind from wanting to support them in a national crisis where opposition to them could make the crisis worse.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

The lack of a clear plan was Syriza’s strength – and then its achilles heel

Alexis Tsipras survived last night’s vote in the Greek parliament, but not without witnessing the disintegration of his own party. Three ministers and 39 Syriza MPs refused to support the new memorandum of understanding voted in last night. The deal was passed with opposition votes. Technically Syriza still has a mandate, but in reality it will be unable to govern without these opposition votes.

Among those who split away are renegade MPs from other parties that Syriza integrated before the last election to attract voters. The core rebels, though, come from the party’s hardline Left Platform. They include the ministers Panagiotis Lafazanis and Dimitris Stratoulis, who despite not voting for the deal refuse to leave office. A standoff also occurred with the speaker of parliament and the Syriza MP Zoe Konstantopoulou. Disliked by many for her outspoken manner, Konstantopoulou voted against her own party last night. Syriza now faces a split that is not only about the deal but also about who will shape the future of the party....

josh

Syriza's raison d'etre is gone. It's now just another party hanging on to power just to stay in power and to reap the perks of office. And Tsipras is now little more than a German prefect.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..scenes from yesterday that don't focus on the violence. scroll down for more links

Protests in Syntagma Square

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
For the last at least 40 years and Grace has been a cronyism state in which the wealthy did not pay real taxes and nobody seriously tried to collect those monies owed.

Fortunately it was only the rich, though.  Can you imagine the outcomes if everyone were allergic to paying tax?

Quote:
However with a strong and militant working class the political compromise was to expand the public state.

So in essence, "to make it up to you for not compelling you to pay taxes, we'll spend that tax money we didn't collect!"

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

John Pilger on Pacifica Radio wrote:
Here was a government that presented itself as different. ... taking on this fortress of extreme capitalism (in the EU) ... odious and illegitimate and illegal debts ... which they campaigned on and held a referendum on ... . [The Greek people] have been betrayed. ... the Greek people voted ... and their government went in the opposite direction. That is betrayal.

They should repudiate the debt as Argentina did.

 

See the link at 94.1 KPFA about 20 minutes in.

NDPP

'Greek Society is Ready to Discuss Radical Alternatives'

http://www.rt.com/op-edge/310024-greece-bailout-syriza-rallies/

"I think this is just the beginning of a new phase..."

 

Riots In Athens: EU's Impending Collapse?  -  by Norman Pollack

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/07/16/riots-in-athens-eus-impending-col...

"People move events.

The riots in Athens, while the Greek parliament passed the austerity measures, may be the first sign of the breakup of the EU, itself a political formation of advanced capitalism unable to meet the needs of its poorer members.

Austerity is repression, pure and simple. It is also, as I recently pointed out, the framework for class warfare, in both cases to the extreme detriment of working people. The people in the Athens street know this, know that Tsipras and Syriza have not done right by them.

Greece is on the edge of the precipice, struggling not to be pushed over into the abyss. It wants to fight back...I am heartened though, by the scenes before the Greek Parliament hours ago.

The Greek people have an unquenchable thirst for freedom!"

 

Syriza Betrays Greece's NO Vote: Why the Left Should Form a Popular Front Against the EU   -   by Stavros Mavroudeas

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/07/16/syriza-betrays-greeces-no-vote-wh...

"...It is of paramount importance for the Left not to leave the field free to the extreme Right as happened in West Europe. A Left popular front against the EU should be urgently organized.

This should involve political forces and grassroots popular organizations, fight austerity and capitalist restructuring and strive for the total disengagement of Greece from the EU

(That is for a popular GREXIT involving leaving the whole structure and not solely the monetary union). It is the task of the independent and militant Left and the combatant forces of labor to instigate this front."

Geoff

ikosmos wrote:

John Pilger on Pacifica Radio wrote:
Here was a government that presented itself as different. ... taking on this fortress of extreme capitalism (in the EU) ... odious and illegitimate and illegal debts ... which they campaigned on and held a referendum on ... . [The Greek people] have been betrayed. ... the Greek people voted ... and their government went in the opposite direction. That is betrayal.

They should repudiate the debt as Argentina did.

 

See the link at 94.1 KPFA about 20 minutes in.

Let's hope a certain Canadian political party doesn't do the same thing, should it be elected in October.Wink

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Syriza could address this very simply.

One more referendum, binding:  "On a scale of Yes or No, do you want Greece to leave the Eurozone, effective as soon as this vote is counted?"

[ ] Yes

[ ] No

Sean in Ottawa

The Greek government was in a bad way. They had this negotiation and almost no negotiating power. Tsipras decided to use a referendum in order to give him some leverage. In order for it to give him leverage it could not be a deal vs Grexit question as we presume that people would have taken a bad deal before a Grexit. He was seeking a mandate for a third option – no Grexit and not the deal that was on the table. Not a bad idea but it backfired as it turns out there was no negotiation and leverage was irrelevant.

Knowing this, a referendum that offered the deal but not a Grexit, left the Greek government with a mandate for nothing. He had no mandate for a Grexit since he said the referendum was not about that AND he had no mandate to sign the deal. In fact he has no mandate at all since there is now obviously no third option.

I disagree that Tsipras has betrayed his people. But I think he walked into a serious tactical blunder that has left him not only without a mandate but guessing as to what his people want only days after they should have been able to answer the question.

In hindsight Tsipras should have said at the table that these are massive changes and whatever he negotiates must be put to a referendum and the acceptance time-table should have allowed for that. They would have reacted differently to this than a referendum designed only to beat them with. He should have warned Europe that a bad deal could fail a referendum and negotiated the best possible. Quite possible finding as it turns out that there was no negotiation. Then he should have put the deal on the table and asked his people to vote on it vs a Grexit as the only other choice. Likely it would have been safer to not take a position on it even though we can see that he favours the deal over Grexit. His party could have accepted a unified position to let the people decide.

More interesting (hindsight is great) he should have asked Europe for an option to take a deal or an option to leave for a fixed term with known conditions that would allow them back (so they would not have difficulty getting back in). This way a temporary Grexit would have been a real choice rather than a bad deal or catastrophe.

Had he done this he would have avoided the current position of just having had a vote but no mandate (he only has a mandate to do the impossible – reject the deal and still stay in Europe).

In the end he mixed up the two votes—parliament should have voted on the question the referendum asked and the people should now be voting in a referendum asking if they will take Europe’s final offer or exit Europe.

All this is to say—I think he blew the tactics in something that was unprecedented and many would have gotten wrong. But I don’t think he has betrayed anyone or lied to the people. I think while it was a bad strategy, it was also an understandable one.

Sean in Ottawa

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Syriza could address this very simply.

One more referendum, binding:  "On a scale of Yes or No, do you want Greece to leave the Eurozone, effective as soon as this vote is counted?"

[ ] Yes

[ ] No

Cross-posted with you. This is difficult given that it exposes the mistake of asking the wrong question and yours is not the right question either.

What if the people vote no?

So they say no to Grexit and no to the deal?

What they need is a mandate chocie to sign the deal as it sits OR leave the Eurozone.

Now I don't think it should be effecitve immediately-- it would be based on some wind-up deal that might take as little as a month or so but no need to make this sound petulant.

Europe has stated they are prepared for Grexit and would offer some humanitarian aid. Greece should take that aid if the poeple want a Grexit. While waiting for the vote the govenrment should be negotiating with anyone who can assist them to make a Grexit work as best it can be.

I do not propose one chaotic referendum after another. This one if there is another -- must be thought through and include what the real choice is. So a no to Grexit must be a yes to the only deal on the table and visa versa.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:

What if the people vote no?

So they say no to Grexit and no to the deal?

They already had a referendum about the deal.  Or at any rate, they had a referendum about a marginally BETTER deal and rejected it.

To be fair, if they were to vote "no" to a Grexit and "no" to austerity then I'd surely agree that Syriza's hands are tied.  That would be tantamount to saying "yes" to some kind of miracle.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..this is from back in apr when i believe there was an opportunity to leave

Costas Lapavitsas: The Syriza strategy has come to an end

quote:

So what should the Greek government do in your opinion?

Greece needs to consider the true alternative path which is to leave this failed monetary union. It is clearly the only way that was there from the beginning – which is basically exit. If you are going to apply such a programme, as Syriza has proclaimed, which is not radical – Syriza’s programme is just moderate Keynesianism -, you need to think seriously of how you are going to get out of the confines of the Eurozone.

Do you think Syriza has the mandate for it?

A straight answer is no. Syriza has a mandate to fulfil its programme. Indirectly, not directly, it has a mandate to keep the country in the Eurozone. But this question was never openly posed to the Greek people.

Is the solution a referendum?

The first thing to do is not so much discuss the idea of a referendum but actually that of the alternative strategy. There has to be a genuine public debate at last. That’s not easy because for five years this country has been subjected to the most incredible misinformation and scaremongering campaigns. So the atmosphere has been very badly poisoned. It is not impossible to have this debate now but it is much more difficult than a few years back.

In my judgement, the best strategy right now is what I call a consensual and orderly exit. Not a contested exit.

 Can you elaborate on that? 

I think Greece should set a target for itself to negotiate an exit basically without rupture, without falling out, without fighting, without unilateral actions. This would mean: Exit takes place and Greece seeks deep debt restructuring.

Q: Why would the EU-partners accept? This exit has two elements that the EZ doesn’t want: the exit itself and the debt restructuring. 

I am not entirely certain the EZ doesn’t want exit. I suspect that it does. And in my judgement if a country asked for a negotiated way out, it might as well receive in it. Germany, Schauble, back in 2011 was in favor of a negotiated exit.

The price for the EZ should be debt restructuring. But they are two more very important elements: the protection of the exchange rate and protection of the banks. These are essentially costless for the ECB because Greece is a small country.

NDPP

Protests Erupt in Athens as Greece Approves Eurozone Bailout

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&j...

 

'A Fury Rising' As Greek Parliament Votes to Accept Eurozone Agreement

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&I...

"Reporting from Athens, Dimitri Lascaris says there is a deep anger against the humilitating deal forced on Greece by Eurozone leaders, but the whole deal might fall apart.."

Sean in Ottawa

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:

What if the people vote no?

So they say no to Grexit and no to the deal?

They already had a referendum about the deal.  Or at any rate, they had a referendum about a marginally BETTER deal and rejected it.

To be fair, if they were to vote "no" to a Grexit and "no" to austerity then I'd surely agree that Syriza's hands are tied.  That would be tantamount to saying "yes" to some kind of miracle.

I think we already know this is the issue.

Do they need to have a separate vote to reject all their options before they actually start measuring one bad option against another?

Clearly now the choice is deal or Grexit. Any vote now should have a choice unless it is another protest magnet. Statements have been made -- what is needed are decisions and mandates. Mandates come from offering two Possible options not disapproval in seperate votes of each nasty option the country faces. Greece is on the verge of collapse.

It would be irresponsible to have another vote that is not a choice between two real options -- something the govermment can take as a direction. The trouble with the last vote is the meaning of OXI was completely undefined except in the negative. You need a postive choice This OR this. Not one option: yes or no.

At this point there is violence in the streets. People are very much divided. The only possible thing that could hold them together is a mandate to do something. Another mandate to reject without an alternative choice could take the country right over the edge-- even if it is possible now to stop that from happening.

KenS

Argentina already had their own currency. You dont just conjure one up and contract to Russia for printing.

Mind you, Syryza had time to cue up the capability for a currency.

 

NorthReport

Agreed.

How will history judge Alexis Tsipras?

Paul Wells on a bailout deal that is a shocking—but necessary—compromise of Greece’s sovereignty

There are no heroes and villains in this piece, and I wouldn’t want to make it look like I’m lionizing the Germans to denigrate the Greeks, either. The creation of the euro currency featured Germany itself flouting membership rules that Germany had helped to write, then shooing away EU officials who had the audacity to point out the hypocrisy. Europe has always been a mess. But, since its members learned to compromise, in the years after the last century’s worst war, they have put centuries of European bloodshed behind them, welcomed half of Germany and most of the Warsaw Pact back to the family of democracies, and built a zone of prosperity so attractive, even Alexis Tsipras, despite everything, found he didn’t dare walk away. One day, his countrymen will thank him.

http://www.macleans.ca/news/world/how-will-history-judge-alexis-tsipras/

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Do they need to have a separate vote to reject all their options before they actually start measuring one bad option against another?

Given that the election of Syriza was widely hailed as a vote against austerity, and the recent referendum was widely hailed as another vote against austerity, I'd agree that Greece shouldn't need more votes in order to say they're not down with austerity.

Quote:
Mandates come from offering two Possible options not disapproval in seperate votes of each nasty option the country faces. Greece is on the verge of collapse.

If I'm understanding what you're saying then I agree.  A vote against a Grexit combined with a vote against austerity is a vote in favour of some magical solution.

Quote:
It would be irresponsible to have another vote that is not a choice between two real options

It was irresponsible to have the first one.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Well, fair enough.

Sean in Ottawa

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Do they need to have a separate vote to reject all their options before they actually start measuring one bad option against another?

Given that the election of Syriza was widely hailed as a vote against austerity, and the recent referendum was widely hailed as another vote against austerity, I'd agree that Greece shouldn't need more votes in order to say they're not down with austerity.

Quote:
Mandates come from offering two Possible options not disapproval in seperate votes of each nasty option the country faces. Greece is on the verge of collapse.

If I'm understanding what you're saying then I agree.  A vote against a Grexit combined with a vote against austerity is a vote in favour of some magical solution.

Quote:
It would be irresponsible to have another vote that is not a choice between two real options

It was irresponsible to have the first one.

It was -- and it would be irresponsible to have another that does not have a choice between two outcomes that are possible. People should not be told they can vote down a deal and stay in the Euro when that is not realistic. Tsipras got a mandate for the impossible -- he cannot ask for another.

NDPP

Doug Woodard wrote:

Golden Dawn will be strengthened by worse austerity, Yanis Varoufakis warns:

http://gu.com/p/4aje7/sbl

 

 

Does anyone else see the obvious contradictions between supporting fascism, IMF austerity and the imposition of  Euro-American domination in Kiev, while opposing the same in Athens?

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Does anyone else see the obvious attempt to bring Ukraine and/or Russia into every thread?

NorthReport

Say what?  Laughing

 

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Does anyone else see the obvious attempt to bring Ukraine and/or Russia into every thread?

takeitslowly

maybe the greek people cant agree on what they want, they only know they dont want austrity. They will protest and whine but they secretly accept whatever that must be done to stay in as long as they can take money out of their banks and stay in EUro

 

tisprias is a strategical loser, a political loser, a big fat loser. Its kind of like my relationship right now, i am not happy but i dont want to break up.

 

Break up is hard, look at Quebec, Scotland, and now Greece, they never want to break up. Better Together, forever and always..

Sean in Ottawa

takeitslowly wrote:

maybe the greek people cant agree on what they want, they only know they dont want austrity. They will protest and whine but they secretly accept whatever that must be done to stay in as long as they can take money out of their banks and stay in EUro

 

tisprias is a strategical loser, a political loser, a big fat loser. Its kind of like my relationship right now, i am not happy but i dont want to break up.

 

Break up is hard, look at Quebec, Scotland, and now Greece, they never want to break up. Better Together, forever and always..

I don't think this is a fair statement about the Greek People. They have not been asked a question with a stright choice.

josh

NorthReport wrote:

Agreed.

How will history judge Alexis Tsipras?

Paul Wells on a bailout deal that is a shocking—but necessary—compromise of Greece’s sovereignty

There are no heroes and villains in this piece, and I wouldn’t want to make it look like I’m lionizing the Germans to denigrate the Greeks, either. The creation of the euro currency featured Germany itself flouting membership rules that Germany had helped to write, then shooing away EU officials who had the audacity to point out the hypocrisy. Europe has always been a mess. But, since its members learned to compromise, in the years after the last century’s worst war, they have put centuries of European bloodshed behind them, welcomed half of Germany and most of the Warsaw Pact back to the family of democracies, and built a zone of prosperity so attractive, even Alexis Tsipras, despite everything, found he didn’t dare walk away. One day, his countrymen will thank him.

http://www.macleans.ca/news/world/how-will-history-judge-alexis-tsipras/

Yeah, there's a real progressive for you. Have any other national political hacks to weigh in on the subject?

KenS

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

I don't think this is a fair statement about the Greek People. They have not been asked a question with a stright choice.

Comsistent with the straight through lack of leadership shown by Tsipras.

The referendum question was not, do you want to refuse the deal offered even if it means Greece has to go its own way.

Yes, Syryza did not have a mandate to take a path that could likely lead to being pushed out of the exit. But it had 6 months and was unwilling to ask, if getting what we need requires......

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Tsipras’s warning shot to the Left Platform (non paper)

Last night, the Greek government released a non-paper through which Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras issues a ‘warning shot’ towards the Left Platform of his party, after 32 SYRIZA MPs (most of which belong to the Left Platform) rejected the new bailout deal brought forth in the parliament.

You can find the original document non paper (in Greek) here, and a translated version below....

KenS

Calling it a ""warning shot" I think is more than a bit of an overstatement.

It's not a threat, it's a (pointless) objection that you arent being fair to me.

 

NDPP

Greek Banks Will Not Re-Open Monday Even as Loan To Repay ECB Approved

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-07-17/greek-banks-will-not-re-open-mo...

"The timing could not be worse from a visual perspective but within minutes of the Eurogroup confirming that they approved the 7.16 B EUR bridge loan (which will merely be recycled back to the ECB to ensure the appearance of normalcy continues), local reports note that the Greek finance ministry says banks will not re-open on Monday (as promised).

The elites get their money which will all go to pay off the creditors.

The people, not so much..."

NDPP

Greece Surrendered: But to Whom Exactly?  -  by Diana Johnstone

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/07/17/greece-surrendered-but-to-whom-ex...

"...Yes, Greece surrendered unconditionally, as has been thoroughly and eloquently expressed here on CounterPunch and elsewhere. But one crucial question appears not to have been adequately answered. To whom, exactly, did Greece surrender?

The United States has been relatively discrete during this crisis, but Washington's will is known. Greece must stay tightly within the European Union, for geopolitical reasons.

Much of the European left is finding itself increasingly caught in the contradiction between its anti-nationalist 'European dream' and the destruction of democracy by the EU's financial bureaucracy."

takeitslowly

Tisprias should resign. He once siad he would reisgn if the referendum didnt go his way. He has done nothing except to make the situation worse and betrayed and disappointed the people who supported him. He has no plan B, his government was never prepared and had no idea what to do in case the EU said no to them.

Where's the economic expertise? The foreign relations expertise? Contingency plans? Nothing. His plan was to cry like a baby and then surrendered everything when he realizes no one cares about his crying.

 

NDPP

Debate: Greece Bailout Crisis (and vid)

http://www.presstv.com/Video/2015/07/16/420593/Greece-bailout-crisis

"Sean O'Grady, of The Independent from London and Paul Craig Roberts, former US Assistant Secretary of Treasury from Atlanta address the bailout crisis in Greece."

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

KenS wrote:

Calling it a ""warning shot" I think is more than a bit of an overstatement.

It's not a threat, it's a (pointless) objection that you arent being fair to me.

..and then again maybe not.

Alexis Tsipras reshuffles cabinet to get rid of bailout dissidents

The Greek prime minister has sought to rid his government of hardline leftists who oppose further austerity, reshuffling his cabinet barely 48 hours after dissidents broke ranks over a draconian bailout deal for the debt-stricken country.

In a move aimed squarely at displaying his determination to forge ahead with spending cuts and reforms, Alexis Tsipras replaced leading government ministers. The shakeup marked a decisive split from militants in his radical left Syriza party who had voted against tough measures demanded in return for rescue funds from the EU and IMF.

“It marks the beginning of the end of his relationship with the extremist far-left faction,” said Aristides Hatzis, associate professor of law and economics at Athens University. “But it is also clear that this is a short-term government. Tsipras’s hands are tied because these people still have a strong presence in his parliamentary group.”....

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

The End of Europe

From a European perspective, the financial meltdown of 2008 was the prologue of a full-scale, continent-wide crisis. The US-made financial debacle triggered a complex chain of unexpected events throughout the old continent, contaminating all spheres of social life and resulting in a radically new landscape plagued by political and economic crisis.

As Ada Colau, the newly elected mayor of Barcelona and head of a coalition inspired by the indignados, says: “No one will come out unchanged from this crisis. What awaits us is a feudal horizon, with a sharp increase in inequality, an unprecedented concentration of wealth, new forms of insecurity for the majority of citizens. Or, a democratic revolution, where thousands of people are committed to change the film’s ending.”...

Doug Woodard

Greece debt crisis: Reforms 'going to fail' - Varoufakis

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-33578778

 

Doug Woodard

Varoufakis - Dr. Schauble's Plan for Europe: Do Europeans Approve?

English version of Varoufakis' article in Die Zeit:

http://www.yanisvaroufakis.eu/2015/07/17/dr-schaubles-plan-for-europe-do...

 

NDPP

Greece: Alternatives To The Capitulation

http://99getsmart.com/cadtm-greece-alternatives-to-the-capitulation/

"...It would have been perfectly possible to eschew the ECB's, the Eurogroup's and the EC's unacceptable and illegitimate injunctions. The Tsipras government decided otherwise, and this has led to a tragic subordination to EU supervision, to more austerity and to the selling off of the Greek national heritage.

However, if the Greek authorities adopt strong measures they can gain genuine concessions or simply force the institutions to recognize the decisions taken.

On top of the suspension of the payment of illegitimate, illegal, odious and unsustainable debt, here are a number of alternatives to the conditions in the agreement between Tsipras and the creditors, to be urgently submitted to democratic debate, that are likely to help Greece recover..."

 

Lapavitsas Calls For Exit as the Only Strategy for the Greek People

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&I...

"...The deal is quite clearly neo-colonial. The government of the Left has signed up Greece to a neo-colonial agreement."

 

Interview With Costas Lapavitsas

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&I...

Dimitri Lascaris interviews Syriza MP Costas Lapavitsas

josh

Podemos down 8 points in latest poll. Thank you Tsipras.

https://mobile.twitter.com/yvessmith

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Does the Spanish electorate now believe that Podemos will betray them too?  Or else what's the real reason for the dip in the polls?

KenS

Podemos dipped because it all looks harder than people thought. And it/was, whatever Syryza did with it.

It is up to Syryza and Podemos to lead people through the process of questioning what they want, now that many see it s a tougher choice than they thought. Looks like Syryza did a pretty crappy job of preparing people.

But it isnt over in Greece, let alone Spain.

KenS

KenS wrote:

Calling it a ""warning shot" I think is more than a bit of an overstatement.

It's not a threat, it's a (pointless) objection that you arent being fair to me.

epaulo13 wrote:
..and then again maybe not.

Alexis Tsipras reshuffles cabinet to get rid of bailout dissidents 

I still say there are no threats. Expecting Tsipras to govern with the Left Platform in Cabinet, or Varoufakis for that matter, is kind of silly.

Tsipras knows the limits to his power. And he could not get away with expelling MPs from the party- or anything like that.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Whether you approve of Syriza's choices or not, I don't think there's any reasonable reason to believe that Syriza was bought off, or always secretly hated Greece or whatever.  I think they did what they thought was best for Greece.

So it seems funny to me that apparently they should have done the opposite of that, if it was what was best for Podemos.

"Sorry, Greek brothers and sisters, but this isn't about you any more.  It's about the Left around the globe!"

josh

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Whether you approve of Syriza's choices or not, I don't think there's any reasonable reason to believe that Syriza was bought off, or always secretly hated Greece or whatever.  I think they did what they thought was best for Greece.

So it seems funny to me that apparently they should have done the opposite of that, if it was what was best for Podemos.

"Sorry, Greek brothers and sisters, but this isn't about you any more.  It's about the Left around the globe!"

It's about fighting the neo-liberal Leviathan in Greece, Spain, Europe and throughout the western world. It's about fighting an over 20% unemployment rate, which Greece and Spain have in common. A defeat is one thing. But a defeat where the party doing the fighting looks foolish at best, and totally dishonest at worst, is a defeat which will cause damage to all similar parties. And Podemos rose almost in tandem with Syriza. So it's not surprising that one being discredited has ramifications for the other.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
A defeat is one thing. But a defeat where the party doing the fighting looks foolish at best, and totally dishonest at worst, is a defeat which will cause damage to all similar parties.

I'm still asking why this is.

If your comrades duff it -- assuming that Syriza actually did duff it -- means you have to surrender now?  Sorry, still don't follow.

What about "let's redouble our efforts so this doesn't happen here!"?  Wouldn't that also make some sense?

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