It's possible that Greeks, like Icelanders before them will tell Europe and its banks to go shove themselves - the key difference in results being that unlike with Iceland, European banks probably can't cope with Greece defaulting.
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The Greek government was plunged into chaos on Tuesday and faced an imminent collapse, as lawmakers rebelled against Prime Minister George Papandreou's surprise call for a popular referendum on a new debt deal with Greece's foreign lenders.
Such a collapse would not only render the referendum plan moot, it would likely scuttle - or at least delay - the debt deal that was agreed on in Brussels last week, putting Greece on a fast track to default and possible exit from the monetary union of countries sharing the euro currency
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/02/world/europe/markets-tumble-as-greece-...
The only people are surprised are the wishfull thinkers of Wall Street, Berlin and Paris.
They've been in a state of constant surprise for over 3 years now.
Please tell us what the Greek people had to lose in refusung?
You say, things will be worse for them if they do.
[where do people get all those other emoticons, I wanted one of those with people rolling on the floor overcome by laughter?]
If Mr. Papandreou’s government falls, it would not be the first one in Europe to be toppled by the austerity demanded by European debt relief. In Ireland and Portugal governments that accepted bailouts from the European Union and the International Monetary Fund fell, and last month the Slovakian government fell over whether to participate in the European Union’s rescue package.
The voice of the people is speaking in all the "liberal" democracies of Europe. So if this democracy thing we cherish is worth anything to the people of Europe it must mean that the public policy will change. I applaud the Greek President for at least wanting a referendum. However I fear it is merely posturing because he is politically astute enough to know his government is about to fall in parliament and he is desperately trying to save some of his party's base of support.
Good for him. Tell those bankers to piss off!
This just mmight just help put another nail in capitalism's coffin.
I find it interesting that the so-called western "defenders of democracy" are attacking the Greek government for an engaging in an exercise in democracy.
When it comes to "the economy" (the mainstream media's term for corporate dictatorship), there is not supposed to be any democracy.
The Greek government did not create its debt crisis, but inherited it from its right-wing predecessor. And Greece is NOT Iceland. If they have to take the high road on behalf of the wronged masses of Greece, they will have to subsist on olives, the major export. Holidaying there will become as low-cost as it was on the Costa Brava in 1963.
This just mmight just help put another nail in capitalism's coffin.
You better build a huge assed pyramid for that SOB; coffins can't hold the undead for long...
You are full of mirth this morning BDC. You must have had a look at Perry's drunken/high speech to the Republican faithful in New Hampshire a day or two back. Still laughing at the images. How does Texas manage to manufacture the braindead in such numbers?
This just mmight just help put another nail in capitalism's coffin.
You better build a huge assed pyramid for that SOB; coffins can't hold the undead for long...
North American oligarchs are watching EU austerity as a blueprint for what they can get away with here. EU plutocrats, otoh, want Greeks and Icelanders, Slovakians etc to drop their democracies and have a centralised oligarchy. And so far the people are telling them to basically go fuck themselves. The people are saying to the banksters and financiers, look, you have no invading army to wage actual war on labour, the poor, and forcing our young people to emigrate for better lives elsewhere so there will be no grand oligarchy, sorry. No ta.
Conservative governments are reducing social welfare while calling on society at large to increase their welfare role, by another name. The Big Society in Cameron's Britain, and in Canada, with the aid of institutions like the MSM, it's to be "The New Philanthropy" whereby, for instance, a gift of $25 million to York University will "foster a generation of socially conscious graduates."
Even while many small non-profits and charities worry that a new law that came into effect in October to replace the 1917 Canada Corporations ACt that governed non-profits,making members into shareholders, is going to be costly andthe smaller ones vulnerable to takeovers...ie. "opponents of an environmental group could join the organization and have the executive director fired or force legal proceedings that the NGO can't afford." Sounds like a neat way to suppress protest eh ?
How did Jose Saramago describe it : "Charity is what is left when there is neither kindness nor justice."
Franco-German hardball in the hopes of scaring Greece into accepting more austerity. Government in disarray over referendum:
"Divisions within Mr. Papandreou's government flared into the open on Thursday when Finance Minister Evangelos Venizelos and his deputy broke ranks publicly with the prime minister to oppose the ballot, saying it could jeopardize Greek membership of the euro single currency.
The disputes emerged soon after Chancellor Angela Merkel of Germany and President Nicolas Sarkozy of France held emergency talks with Mr. Papandreou on Wednesday night to express dismay at his surprise announcement on Monday that he planned a referendum.
. . . .
Mrs. Merkel said the referendum "in essence is about nothing else but the question, does Greece want to stay in the euro zone, yes or no?"
The two leaders also said that no more aid would be given to Greece until after the referendum. This would include the next $11 billion installment of aid; Greek officials have said that without the additional funds, the country will run out of money by mid-December."
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/04/world/europe/greek-leaders-split-on-eu...
Good tequila from Mexico, home brewed beer and working outside for hundreds of days in 100+ degree heat... well, that's my excuse anyways... (Silly Canadian ). I have no fucking idea what his (excuse) is, I didn't vote for him. I do enjoy watching him crash and burn from time to time; although I didn't watch the event you mentioned. I had better things to do like sit on my back poach and watch the grass grow while I drink a beer. Fuck him. I'd waste my time with you guys here before I'd waste my time listening to him.
(I hope you're not insinuating I'm a Republican...)
Mrs. Merkel said the referendum "in essence is about nothing else but the question, does Greece want to stay in the euro zone, yes or no?"
I think that is essentially the issue. Either Greece wants to be in the euro or it doesn't. Let the voters decide and, then, whatever the consequences, it will be their decision and their responsibility for that decision.
Beginning to look as though referendum will not take place.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/11/03/greece-financial-crisis.ht...
You didn't think the EU and the IMF would actually let the people vote on it? Or necessarily respect the results. It's like the vote on the EU constitution. They would pressure holdout nations to vote again and again until they voted the way the EU and company wanted.
Time to bring back the drachma. The Euro zone has turned out be ill-conceived folly.
Let the voters decide and, then, whatever the consequences, it will be their decision and their responsibility for that decision.
Unfortunately, mere people can't be trusted to make important decisions like that. Just imagine if we let the 99% vote on the fate of the 1%!
Good tequila from Mexico, home brewed beer and working outside for hundreds of days in 100+ degree heat... well, that's my excuse anyways... (Silly Canadian ). I have no fucking idea what his (excuse) is, I didn't vote for him. I do enjoy watching him crash and burn from time to time; although I didn't watch the event you mentioned. I had better things to do like sit on my back poach and watch the grass grow while I drink a beer. Fuck him. I'd waste my time with you guys here before I'd waste my time listening to him.
(I hope you're not insinuating I'm a Republican...)
Great Gaia no. I had you down for a Johnsonian Democrat, a throwback to the good old days who didn't go Republican when Johnson went civil rights.
Had any rain yet?
Michael Hudson
Consent Needed for Debt Repayments November 1, 2011
Hudson weighs in again: EU: Democracy Incompatible with Debt Collection
It's all out financial warfare.
Just like how the world came to an end when the citizens of France and The Netherlands voted against the EU constitution?
Max Keiser: 'Greece Run By Financial Terrorists' (and vid)
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/207958.html
"...the global banking system - as it exists today - needs to be euthanized and Papandreou has the position, the opportunity to be the Dr. Kevorkian to perform this mercy killing. As was stated earlier, if Greece goes down, so does the eurozone, so does the global banking system.."
Greek PM Scraps Plan for Referendum (and vid)
http://rt.com/news/greek-referendum-papandreou-coalition-497/
"The whole European Union is in great danger..." - Celente interview
Coup De Greece: Papandreou Boots Military Brass
http://rt.com/news/greece-military-dismissal-papandreou-393/
"The dismissal of Greece's top military chiefs has the opposition up in arms. With the Greek crisis worsening by the day, PM George Papandreou has been accused of trying to reign in the armed forces before a potential government collapse.."
US Business Magazine: Military Coup Best Solution for Greece - by Bill Van Auken
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/nov2011/forb-n04.shtml
"Forbes magazine, which bills itself as 'information for the World's Business Leaders', has published an article on its web site entitled 'The Real Greek Solution: A Military Coup.'..."
Michael Hudson: A WTF podcast
- debt peonage worse than central planning.
- no solutions within the existing system.
- revolutions happen when people grow tired of being afraid.
- two stages for proper transformation(U.S.):
1. Get rid of the crooks in charge i.e. Wall St lobbyists. Give them offers they can't refuse to go away
1.1 Clean up corruption in the legal system
2. Nationalise some banks
2.2 re-write banking laws to prevent banksters from gambling with imaginary money deposits
2.3 Closedown offshore tax havens
2.4 Cancel bad debts across the board. New law of fraudulent conveyance but for the purpose of freeing the indebted from lifetimes of debt peonage
2.5 Eliminate rent-seeking free lunch capitalism
So the bargain is, either accept the austerity package or have a military coup. Nice neoliberalism! Not!
How is it that people can ignore or miss that this G20 temper tantrum is a perfect example of the interests of "the markets" being in direct oppostion to democratic principles?
Edited to add:
After typing the above, I came across this succinct article, on this very topic, in the New Statesman (on-line). Saving Capitalism? The price could be democracy.
'Greece is No Longer A Sovereign State' (and vid)
http://rt.com/news/greece-bank-sovereign-referendum-581/
"...The Greek authorities are not even hiding the fact that they are in no control of their own destiny..."
Roubini Predicts Eurozone Collapse, World Markets Will Follow
http://rt.com/usa/news/roubini-eurozone-collapse-world-587/
"Noted American economist Nouriel Roubini says the eurozone is in the midst of crumbling, and with the rest of the world's future at stake with a potential collapse, they might want to listen up - Roubini has been right before. Sources say Roubini announced, 'If the Eurozone blows up, it all gets worse'..."
'Euro Could Be Dead in a Month' (and vid)
http://rt.com/news/greece-eurozone-crisis-government-639
"The euro has never been so shaky. And if the eurozone does not get its act together, the euro could be dead by the end of November.."
quote:" Sources say Roubini announced, 'If the Eurozone blows up, it all gets worse'..."
The faces of Steve and wee Jimmie reflect that concern.
What should a Canadian left be saying/doing to reassure the Canadian industrial workers now being laid off in large numbers? Rather than let the woebegone pair fly about appearing to be the only knowledgeable people capable of saving the Canadian economy. And I don't mean just repetition of the obvious, but an explanation as to how this all began with a finance capitalist system gone fey. That and more.
Economic correctives, not just "throw the bastards out." Something to tell the workers for this Christmas - and something ACHIEVABLE electorally,to follow.
Greece is stuffed by the Merkozy
Quote: While the referendum plan was undoubtedly a populist move to quell the strikes and mass demonstrations that have racked Greece, it at least offered the opportunity for a democratic debate. Opposition to it came from the opposition New Democracy (conservatives) as well as the Greek Communist Party (KKE).
The KKE, an ultra-Stalinist party, is the third biggest in the Greek parliament. It has spent the summer striving to keep the Pasok government in power while posturing against it.
On October 20, its members in the trade union front PAME formed a human shield at the entrance to parliament during a two-day general strike. Armed with clubs and dressed in a para-military fashion, their aim was to prevent workers and students from storming the parliament building. This led to ugly clashes with anarchists, who the Stalinists typically labelled as agents provocateurs.
Fresh elections in Greece – or anywhere else for that matter – would solve nothing....
EU, ECB and IMF chose a banker (of course) to be the Greek leader. The people are then duly notified:
Lucas Papademos, the former vice president of the European Central Bank, was tapped to lead a Greek unity government charged with securing financing to avert the country's economic collapse.
. . . .
The unity government must implement budget measures and decisions related to an Oct. 26 European bailout that's worth 130 billion euros ($177 billion), including a debt swap, before holding elections that have been tentatively set for Feb. 19.
Immediately at stake is the fate of an 8 billion-euro loan installment under an earlier aid package, a 110 billion-euro EU- led bailout agreed in May 2010. The tranche must be paid before the middle of December to prevent a collapse of the country's financial system.
"I am confident the country's participation in the euro zone is a guarantee of monetary stability," Papademos said. "It is an indicator of economic welfare. The country's participation in the euro zone, despite the difficulties it is facing, will facilitate the adjustment of the economy and growth and we must all be optimistic on the final outcome as long as we are united."
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2011/11/10/bloomberg_ar...
Immediately at stake is the fate of an 8 billion-euro loan installment under an earlier aid package, a 110 billion-euro EU- led bailout agreed in May 2010. The tranche must be paid before the middle of December to prevent a collapse of the country's financial system.
Which country?
Unionist has the right point.
The collapse of the Greek financial system and a new and dangerous return to the drachma, will hardly be painless for the citizens. But I have yet to see or hear which is most likely to be the 'worst worst' for the people.
If a Greek collapse is the tipping point for the European economy- Italy and Spain reeling soon after- it will cause even more pain to Greeks than French and Germans. Which Greeks are often reminded.
But that is not the relevant realpolitik comparison for the people. Yes, that will be bad. But what are the odds that hanging on as long as possible with EU demands will be less bad?
The game is rigged. "Heads we lose. Tails we lose."
But there is still losing versus the other losing.
Be interesting to see what a financial sector collapse is like when there is no one with the pockets to even think of saving the banking system.
Is it going to be any worse than bailing them out so they dont take us with them.... which happens anyway?
Oh, it'll be worse. We're looking at capital-D Depression in that case. At least we'd get to watch banker heads explode before heading out to loot the supermarket.
These bailouts aren't democracy. What's worse, they aren't even a rescue