Hate Crime in New Zealand: Mass Murder in the Mosques

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epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

They are evil and nothing more.

..demonization is part of the problem.

WWWTT

Misfit wrote:

WWWTT,

These mass murderers are not victims in need of help. They are terrorists. They are perpetrators of evil.

I tolerate your characterization of mental illness only to a point. Sociopathy or psychopathy/narcissism fall within the DSM of character disorders and not of mental illness.

Serial killers have no conscience and arguably no soul. They have no ability to feel empathy or compassion. Psychopaths cannot be rehabilitated.

They don’t deserve help. They are evil and nothing more.

Are you sure about that? This link says otherwise

https://www.verywellmind.com/the-diagnostic-and-statistical-manual-dsm-2...

Now I'm not a psychiatrist or psychotherapist. So whatever disorder these individuals are suffering from, I can not say.

And since they are now detained and will be charged (if not already), I'm sure all kinds of assesments will be done over and over.

I'd rather such individuals are helped before they fall into being consumed with such feelings of hate willing to kill.

contrarianna

The dispute here about whether the perpertrators are  simply "evil" or are "suffering from a mental illness and should be treated" highlights some issues.

That there can be clinically discernible social maladaptions does not necessarily mean diminished reponsibility for legal prosecution, nor does it mean that the perpetrator(s) necessarily have any clinical psychosis. 

The concerns about "mental health" are much more likely to occur when the perpetrator shares race, ethnic or cultural background, even if those most concerned about mental health don't share the perpertrators ideological beliefs .

I don't recall a lot of discussion of the mental health of the perpertrators of the Charlie Hebedo attack or the 911 attacks, but there was considerable discussion about it with Brevik. 

It's as if murderous behaviour on the part of the "other" is considered normal behaviour for "those people", but when those who commit similarly  ideologically inspired crimes from within a shared ethnic or cultural background, it must mean that a failure of mental health rather than ideology is the dominant factor.

The cultural double standard is engrained in all societies and is most evident during wars where mass homocidal behaviour is not only tolerated but celebrated, endorsed by the state and media.

Unionist

contrarianna wrote:

It's as if murderous behaviour on the part of the "other" is considered normal behaviour for "those people", but when those who commit similarly  ideologically inspired crimes from within a shared ethnic or cultural background, it must mean that a failure of mental health rather than ideology is the dominant factor.

The cultural double standard is engrained in all societies and is most evident during wars where mass homocidal behaviour is not only tolerated but celebrated, endorsed by the state and media.

Thanking you for articulately nailing some of the bullshit upthread.

Responding to the New Zealand massacre by focusing on mental health services sounds like an argument taken from the arsenal of the NRA.

 

Sean in Ottawa

contrarianna wrote:

The dispute here about whether the perpertrators are  simply "evil" or are "suffering from a mental illness and should be treated" highlights some issues.

That there can be clinically discernible social maladaptions does not necessarily mean diminished reponsibility for legal prosecution, nor does it mean that the perpetrator(s) necessarily have any clinical psychosis. 

The concerns about "mental health" are much more likely to occur when the perpetrator shares race, ethnic or cultural background, even if those most concerned about mental health don't share the perpertrators ideological beliefs .

I don't recall a lot of discussion of the mental health of the perpertrators of the Charlie Hebedo attack or the 911 attacks, but there was considerable discussion about it with Brevik. 

It's as if murderous behaviour on the part of the "other" is considered normal behaviour for "those people", but when those who commit similarly  ideologically inspired crimes from within a shared ethnic or cultural background, it must mean that a failure of mental health rather than ideology is the dominant factor.

The cultural double standard is engrained in all societies and is most evident during wars where mass homocidal behaviour is not only tolerated but celebrated, endorsed by the state and media.

Works both ways -- we have documented that people who are ill have converted to Islam in order to get "permission" to kill. By the same logic there are people who may have contributed to radical views becuase they are driven to kill. There is a lot of history here showing that there is little difference between mass murderers other than the excuse. The population has to stop providing excuses through hate, and stop providing the means through weapons but they also have to adddress what may be the underlying commonality which is the type of mental breakdown that leads to a desire to kill.

Paladin1

NorthReport wrote:

For example the people that have spoken out in support of what happened in New Zealand need to be immediately rounded up and charged with hate crimes 

That seems extreme.

 

NorthReport wrote:

This is what we all have to do when such a situation occurs

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5059407

I agree. Best to go on the offense in a situation like this.

At the site of the other mosque shooting one of the prayer goers apparently grabbed a gun of their own and retured fire - the shooters sped off.

JKR

WWWTT wrote:

Misfit wrote:

WWWTT,

These mass murderers are not victims in need of help. They are terrorists. They are perpetrators of evil.

I tolerate your characterization of mental illness only to a point. Sociopathy or psychopathy/narcissism fall within the DSM of character disorders and not of mental illness.

Serial killers have no conscience and arguably no soul. They have no ability to feel empathy or compassion. Psychopaths cannot be rehabilitated.

They don’t deserve help. They are evil and nothing more.

Are you sure about that? This link says otherwise

https://www.verywellmind.com/the-diagnostic-and-statistical-manual-dsm-2...

Now I'm not a psychiatrist or psychotherapist. So whatever disorder these individuals are suffering from, I can not say.

And since they are now detained and will be charged (if not already), I'm sure all kinds of assesments will be done over and over.

I'd rather such individuals are helped before they fall into being consumed with such feelings of hate willing to kill.

What condition or conditions from the DSM do you think contributed to the NZ mass murder?

Can white nationalism or white supremacy be considered a mental health condition?

Unionist

If only Hitler's disability had been identified and treated early... 

Or wait... did he deliberately use the pre-existing prejudices against Jews, Roma, LGBTQ people, the mentally ill, and "Bolsheviks" to divide and rule? To create or attract pro-Nazi murdering gangs in Ukraine, Latvia, Croatia, etc. by promising them "independence"?

What a shame that progressive people are unable to agree that racism and Islamophobia and homophobia and misogyny are not a matter of "illness". They are rooted in the inequalities that fester, and are deliberately nurtured, in societies based on the dictatorship of some over others.

NorthReport

Well said Unionist!

Sean in Ottawa

Unionist wrote:

If only Hitler's disability had been identified and treated early...

Millions may have been spared.

This is not to say that he would have been a nice guy but he may have done less damage. Are we more interested in fairness and responsibility that mitigating harm? If so then I apologize.

NDPP

"The hatred of Muslims was made mainstream by western mass media who needed to justify the military slaughter of human beings who happened to be living on top of oil and key geostrategic locations. War propaganda warps minds and turns people into murderous monsters."

https://twitter.com/caitoz/status/1106401460802076678

'Michelle and I send our condolences...We grieve with you and the Muslim community...'

https://twitter.com/sahouraxo/status/1106650637461266433

"You dropped over 100,000 bombs on eight majority Muslim countries and expanded drone strikes ten fold during your presidency, butchering and displacing millions of Muslims along the way. Your 'condolences' are as opportunistic as they are fake."

Surely no-one alive and sentient since 9/11 should have any question as to the reality, origins and purpose of Islamophobia?  Let us not reserve our outrage and disgust merely for individual manifestations. Never forget Canada sells weapons for the very same purpose.

NDPP

'Israel Mourns the Wanton Murder of Innocent...'

https://twitter.com/AliAbunimah/status/1106543120680976385

"You are one of the chief global inciters of Islamophobia and ally of white supremacists and Nazis."

That Canada and all its political parties supports. If you're not doing anything to stop that you are collaborating and your 'condolences' are as fake as theirs are.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

epaulo13 wrote:

They are evil and nothing more.

..demonization is part of the problem.

..it's demnonization that is used in order for countries to attack other countries. it follows that demonization is used to attack the other in our communities. this is what happened in this case imho. we are all human. killing or worse is what we are capable of. we need to accept this if there is any hope of us changing.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
I'd rather such individuals are helped before they fall into being consumed with such feelings of hate willing to kill.

We need to invent some sort of "help ray" that we can use, from a distance, to help those who don't want it.  We'll just identify them from their Facebook rantings and zap them when they're not looking.

WWWTT

contrarianna wrote:

The dispute here about whether the perpertrators are  simply "evil" or are "suffering from a mental illness and should be treated" highlights some issues.

That there can be clinically discernible social maladaptions does not necessarily mean diminished reponsibility for legal prosecution, nor does it mean that the perpetrator(s) necessarily have any clinical psychosis. 

The concerns about "mental health" are much more likely to occur when the perpetrator shares race, ethnic or cultural background, even if those most concerned about mental health don't share the perpertrators ideological beliefs .

I don't recall a lot of discussion of the mental health of the perpertrators of the Charlie Hebedo attack or the 911 attacks, but there was considerable discussion about it with Brevik. 

It's as if murderous behaviour on the part of the "other" is considered normal behaviour for "those people", but when those who commit similarly  ideologically inspired crimes from within a shared ethnic or cultural background, it must mean that a failure of mental health rather than ideology is the dominant factor.

The cultural double standard is engrained in all societies and is most evident during wars where mass homocidal behaviour is not only tolerated but celebrated, endorsed by the state and media.

Thats a false implication if you’re trying to impose it upon me. 

The term “terrorist” from my recollection was/is used originally by the icm to label people fighting for their right to exist (Palestine for example). Now up thread I did mention killing in self defence but I should have expanded on that and included defence of ones homelands. 

And from what I remember, people in the military are mentally conditioned (brain washed) into killing people or to have the capacity to kill  

Despite having used the term terrorist before, I’ve never liked using it. 

As far as the mass murders go in Europe, it would fall into the same category. And 911? I don’t believe I’ll go into that here.  

WWWTT

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
I'd rather such individuals are helped before they fall into being consumed with such feelings of hate willing to kill.

We need to invent some sort of "help ray" that we can use, from a distance, to help those who don't want it.  We'll just identify them from their Facebook rantings and zap them when they're not looking.

I started zapping you since I read your first comment here on babble, hows it working?

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
I started zapping you since I read your first comment here on babble, hows it working?

Not working at all.  Which was kind of my point about "helping" people who don't wish to be helped.

WWWTT

Unionist wrote:

If only Hitler's disability had been identified and treated early... 

Or wait... did he deliberately use the pre-existing prejudices against Jews, Roma, LGBTQ people, the mentally ill, and "Bolsheviks" to divide and rule? To create or attract pro-Nazi murdering gangs in Ukraine, Latvia, Croatia, etc. by promising them "independence"?

What a shame that progressive people are unable to agree that racism and Islamophobia and homophobia and misogyny are not a matter of "illness". They are rooted in the inequalities that fester, and are deliberately nurtured, in societies based on the dictatorship of some over others.

Im going to respond to this comment. Not sure if it’s going to go over well so please forgive me. 

Hitler’s mental health problems I believe are well known 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1034437/hypnotist-Hitler-shell-shock-sparked-first-world-war

Did king leopold of Belgium have some kind of mental health issue? How about Obama? Bush? Trump? McCain etc etc. 

Good friend of mine over 20 years ago told me that he feels that every one has some kind of mental health issue that needs to be addressed. 

 

WWWTT

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
I started zapping you since I read your first comment here on babble, hows it working?

Not working at all.  Which was kind of my point about "helping" people who don't wish to be helped.

ya I get it. Got it the first time. Just having a joke 

Big reason why a lot of people don’t want help is because of the negative stigma associated with mental health issues. That’s got to change!

Misfit Misfit's picture

God! You’ve sure got some kind of obsession with mental health. Instead of pushing this tangent maybe try rereading some of the other posts by people who tell you otherwise.

It is actually quite insulting and offensive to people who have been the targets of hate crimes to have you redefine it as something else and telling people that they need attention and societal empathy. It is very rude and insulting.

Misfit Misfit's picture

A few years back there was a man who decapitatwd a passenger on a Greyhound bus in Manitoba. It turns out that the man was psychotic and heard voices telling him to kill.

mass shootings and hate crimes are not the same thing. This is an entirely different kettle of fish.

There are people on this board who are Holocaust survivors and others who have had family members gassed to death in the concentration camps. I don’t think they want to hear about therapy or concern for Hitler. I know that I don’t.

JKR

WWWTT wrote:

Big reason why a lot of people don’t want help is because of the negative stigma associated with mental health issues. That’s got to change!

I think people who have mental health issues are unnecessarily stigmatized when they are linked with people who commit mass murder for political reasons. I think this thread itself is stigmatizing to people who deal with mental health conditions. I think white supremacy is a very distructive and ignorant political philosophy and it is not a mental health condition. 

Sean in Ottawa

JKR wrote:

WWWTT wrote:

Big reason why a lot of people don’t want help is because of the negative stigma associated with mental health issues. That’s got to change!

I think people who have mental health issues are unnecessarily stigmatized when they are linked with people who commit mass murder for political reasons. I think this thread itself is stigmatizing to people who deal with mental health conditions. I think white supremacy is a very distructive and ignorant political philosophy and it is not a mental health condition. 

This is a position the NDP has taken for years - that mental health support can reduce the loss of life in these mass slaughters but what is being said on the other side can also be seen to be problematic.

It is not a new idea or radical as is being suggested -- mental health has been associated with radicalism:

https://pressprogress.ca/harper-government-identified-mental-health-issu...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/nikitamalik/2019/01/03/mental-health-and-te...

The idea that mental health support can save lives meaning that all those with any mental health condition are associated with the every other condition is the stigmatizing statement. Seeing mental health as a single affliction and lumping it all together is the real problem.

swallow swallow's picture

The concerns about "mental health" are much more likely to occur when the perpetrator shares race, ethnic or cultural background, even if those most concerned about mental health don't share the perpertrators ideological beliefs .

I don't recall a lot of discussion of the mental health of the perpertrators of the Charlie Hebedo attack or the 911 attacks, but there was considerable discussion about it with Brevik.

Thanks for that important point contrarianna. 

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

To be fair, it's a lot easier to imagine a mental health issue affecting an individual than to imagine the same mental health issue affecting all of the members of a group.  That said, I agree with those who suggest that white supremacy is certainly not a mental illness.

Misfit Misfit's picture

I’m in shock that the msm has referred to it as an act of terrorism. Usually it is dismissed as a white motivated oops.

NorthReport
Paladin1

Editing for grammar

lagatta4

In some cultures white is the mourning colour.

I think a lot of survivors of the Great War trenches had PTSD. The question isn't really whether Hitler did, but why supposedly sane - and highly educated - people listened to him. If not, he'd have remained a pub ranter.

WWWTT

Misfit wrote:

God! You’ve sure got some kind of obsession with mental health. Instead of pushing this tangent maybe try rereading some of the other posts by people who tell you otherwise.

It is actually quite insulting and offensive to people who have been the targets of hate crimes to have you redefine it as something else and telling people that they need attention and societal empathy. It is very rude and insulting.

Sorry you feel that way misfit.

NDPP

"The problem with shooting people at a mosque is failing to use missiles to do so; Napalm would be acceptable too. But a gun?! Uncivilized!"

https://twitter.com/davidcnswanson/status/1106730335549771777

Machine-gunning Muslims to death in Yemen from a Canadian-made LAV okay? Must be. We allow it and make billions off it. Don't hear any protests...

WWWTT

Misfit wrote:

A few years back there was a man who decapitatwd a passenger on a Greyhound bus in Manitoba. It turns out that the man was psychotic and heard voices telling him to kill.

mass shootings and hate crimes are not the same thing. This is an entirely different kettle of fish.

There are people on this board who are Holocaust survivors and others who have had family members gassed to death in the concentration camps. I don’t think they want to hear about therapy or concern for Hitler. I know that I don’t.

Yes I remember the case. Very sad. I'm not suggesting that those responsible (New Zealand) suffered from a similar disorder, but who can say for sure at this point? I believe that mental health issues is far more widespread and effects everyone to some degree.

Several months ago my family and I seeked the help of a pshychotherapist for marriage counselling. I found out that I have some issues that I have to learn how to deal with. My family is very grateful for seeking help and I'm a little surprised at how many people are really effected and unaware as I was! My only regret is that I didn't seek out the help of a psychotherapist 20-25 years ago!

It's possible that those in New Zealand responsible were mentally conditioned (brainwashed) to kill, such as what happens to people in the military. I consider these issues also under the scope of mental health. I believe hate to be a mental health issue.

Please don't forget that I believe that it's only a part of the problem (Big chunck at that), but also the availability of weapons and ammunitions and the constant negativity from the icm towards people.

Unionist

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Unionist wrote:

If only Hitler's disability had been identified and treated early...

Millions may have been spared.

This is not to say that he would have been a nice guy but he may have done less damage. Are we more interested in fairness and responsibility that mitigating harm? If so then I apologize.

Sean - I honestly can't tell from your post whether you recognized that my comment about Hitler was merely a bad-taste sardonic ironic statement, intended to tell some others that their thesis of "mental health issues" was a disgusting attack on people with mental health issues, as well as an arguably criminal justification of murderers. Please tell me you got that it was a "joke".

I've chosen to respond to you, rather than to WWWTT's raving about mental health. I can't read that shit any more.

iyraste1313

In today`s Debka, reports on the attack in Ariel...what is interesting if not mystifying is one response, `Revenge for New Zealand` Huh? Are there reports in the Israeli press of the Israeli connection to the massacre in New Zealand?

Is there in fact some substantive evidence to suggest there may be some truth to such a connection, as e.g. the assassin`s 6 month recent stay in Israel?

JKR

WWWTT wrote:

Misfit wrote:

A few years back there was a man who decapitatwd a passenger on a Greyhound bus in Manitoba. It turns out that the man was psychotic and heard voices telling him to kill.

mass shootings and hate crimes are not the same thing. This is an entirely different kettle of fish.

There are people on this board who are Holocaust survivors and others who have had family members gassed to death in the concentration camps. I don’t think they want to hear about therapy or concern for Hitler. I know that I don’t.

Yes I remember the case. Very sad. I'm not suggesting that those responsible (New Zealand) suffered from a similar disorder, but who can say for sure at this point? I believe that mental health issues is far more widespread and effects everyone to some degree.

Several months ago my family and I seeked the help of a pshychotherapist for marriage counselling. I found out that I have some issues that I have to learn how to deal with. My family is very grateful for seeking help and I'm a little surprised at how many people are really effected and unaware as I was! My only regret is that I didn't seek out the help of a psychotherapist 20-25 years ago!

It's possible that those in New Zealand responsible were mentally conditioned (brainwashed) to kill, such as what happens to people in the military. I consider these issues also under the scope of mental health. I believe hate to be a mental health issue.

Please don't forget that I believe that it's only a part of the problem (Big chunck at that), but also the availability of weapons and ammunitions and the constant negativity from the icm towards people.

Maybe your hatred of “the icm” is a mental illness?

voice of the damned

iyraste1313 wrote:

In today`s Debka, reports on the attack in Ariel...what is interesting if not mystifying is one response, `Revenge for New Zealand` Huh? Are there reports in the Israeli press of the Israeli connection to the massacre in New Zealand?

Is there in fact some substantive evidence to suggest there may be some truth to such a connection, as e.g. the assassin`s 6 month recent stay in Israel?

What's the source for his having lived in Israel? The NYT article linked below mentions an "idiosyncratic tour through North Korea, Pakistan, Eastern Europe, France and elsewhere", but doesn't mention Israel. And I couldn't find any other articles mentioning Israel either.

https://tinyurl.com/y33rk6mx

 

Paladin1

JKR wrote:

 

Maybe your hatred of “the icm” is a mental illness?

Interesting question.

WWWTT

JKR wrote:

Maybe your hatred of “the icm” is a mental illness?

How do you know it's a hatred? Because I identified it? And who's spreading the demonization of Islamic people's?

NorthReport

Whey didn’t the alleged shooter’s family report him to the authorities if they knew something was up?

Sean in Ottawa

Unionist wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Unionist wrote:

If only Hitler's disability had been identified and treated early...

Millions may have been spared.

This is not to say that he would have been a nice guy but he may have done less damage. Are we more interested in fairness and responsibility that mitigating harm? If so then I apologize.

Sean - I honestly can't tell from your post whether you recognized that my comment about Hitler was merely a bad-taste sardonic ironic statement, intended to tell some others that their thesis of "mental health issues" was a disgusting attack on people with mental health issues, as well as an arguably criminal justification of murderers. Please tell me you got that it was a "joke".

I've chosen to respond to you, rather than to WWWTT's raving about mental health. I can't read that shit any more.

I think the way you are approaching this makes conversation near impossible. I get that this may be important to you - it is for me. I also would want to question you on a perception you have but you are making clear that you are so secure in your position that you cannot entertain any other view.

I will try again: the issue of lumping all mental illness into a class is what is stigmatizing, not a recognition that in very rare cases a mental illness can leave a person vulnerable to the messages and actions of hate. While this is very rare, mass shootings are also actually comparitively rare but still devastaitng and still worth preventing with everything we can.

Think about what would happen if we were to lump every "physical" illness into a single class? Imagine the presumptions we would have. Imagine as well the backlash where people would demand that cancer not be considered a physical illness becuase it might be seen to encompass those with a cold.

I do not share this idea that some people are evil and always were. This, I consider to be similar to views on religion. I see hate as a breakdown. It is normal that anger distorts how we see things. Anger is after all an emotion with purpose. Hate is a mental process and it is an emotion. It can be disfunctional and difficult to control, like other mental processes. It is unfortinate that you cannot respect my opinion on this.

To say that you might possibly mitigate through mental health services some of the extreme breakdowns that lead to violence is not the crime you suggest. Mitigating behaviour is possible. It does not make the person a better or worse person but it can make them less dangerous to themselves and others. It is natural to be angry with the perversion of hate, but unless we want to say that there is nothing we can do, it is also practical to try to use any tools possible to mitigate it. It is also possible that some people may have to be removed from society and committed to a mental institution for the safety of themselves and others.

You are joking about Hitler. I am not. It is possible that early on Hitler might have been diverted from his path. It would not have made him a good person but it might have prevented some of the horror that followed. It is also possible that with intervention he might have been placed in an institution.

The jokes about Hitler also miss that there was considerable support for a person like him. This also represented something wrong with a very large number of his generation. Sure we can throw our hands up and blame the generation for their support of Hitler as well as himself. But that is a pessimistic way of looking at it becuase it means that we have nothing to offer the current generation in how to react to similar people, hatreds and movements.

But we circle around to throwing our hands up, unable to speak about the damage from some ill people because we might risk offending people who have completely different conditions. All this is becuase we lack a culture and vocabularly to differentiate, so what we do is go to the next thing -- a form of religion. We cannot understand and so we stoop to the age old good and evil explanation. At least there we do not have to confront the problem and can just label it as evil. There we do not have to even address those who followed evil as we can create a dividing line between other evil people and something akin to demonic possession. To avoid offence, we pretend that there is nothing to do to try to save lives from the unstoppable evil.

You are right there is a grave stigma associated with mental illness. The answer is not to pretend that extremes cannot happen that we can try to mitigate, intervene in as a society.

The answer can only be found in refusing to see mental illness as a monolith. It is found in seeing the full diversity of mental illness as no less than every other illness. It comes from understanding that even in extreme cases it can be mitigated. It comes from not giving up - we do not have to judge a person as worth the effort of mitigating their illness or to assume that a person cannot be reached. Mental illness is treatable. Untreated, it will almost always only cause trouble for the person who is ill but in rare, very rare, cases, it can cause risk to others. To deny this is an absolute perversion of all the efforts to avoid stigma. It will be disproven and the efforts at avoiding stigma will fail.

But if your anger and certainty in your position makes it impossible for you to consider these things then my writing this may be a waste of time. You will go ahead and brand me in whatever way you want to protect your opinion. You will pretend that I am doing harm to people who are ill. This is a horrendous accusation since most (if not all) people either have their personal experience with this themselves or with people close to them.

Most of all I say to you -- the cause of stigma is closed minds.

 

 

Sean in Ottawa

There is not only one good, correct way to view this. There is value in discussing this topic with people you disagree with. Take a moment to consider what WWWTT is saying and crucially what he is not saying here. He is not excusing or endorsing anything. He is not claiming to place all mental illness in one basket -- that stigmatizes everyone. Sorry, but you are the one doing that here. He is not saying that the effects of one person's mental illness means other people with a different mental illness are also at risk. He is not even claiming that the same mental illness leaves all people equally atr risk. He is not saying that mental illness is the cause of the evilness you speak of -- it may be just the inability to control it. All he is saying is that mental helath services can make a difference.

We do not know WWWTT any more than we know each other. We do not know what his mental health status is or that of people close to him any more than we understand this about each other. Throwing around these accusations without really hearing what the person is saying is not helpful. Stigma really is a problem. but it is not so simple as to say that we can just separate all conversation about mental illness from extreme violence and hate. Mental illness can weaken in many different ways. It is not one condition or illness.

Unionist

Sean, in your verbosity, you seem to have missed something. I'm not talking about mental illness. I'm talking about racism, Islamophobia, anti-Semitism, mass murder, war, aggression. To suggest that Islamophobic mass murder (to take but one example) can be "mitigated" by expanded mental health services is to miss the root cause. Likewise with Nazi Germany. These are not the product of sick individuals - although some individuals involved may need attention and treatment. To suggest that mental health approaches can mitigate these phenomena is like the NRA saying, "Don't mind the guns, do better background checks on the owners! Guns don't kill people; people kill people!".

I notice that no one suggests that billionaires, whose personal fortunes depend on the exploitation and subjugation of millions of working people, should be treated as mentally ill. Likewise with the Nixons and Bushes and Harpers et al. After all, how could a mentally healthy human being commit such atrocities? Sorry Sean, never heard that one. Or is that coming next?

JKR

WWWTT wrote:

JKR wrote:

Maybe your hatred of “the icm” is a mental illness?

How do you know it's a hatred? Because I identified it? And who's spreading the demonization of Islamic people's?

Since you think “the icm” does things like “spreading the demonization of Islamic people,” I thought you disliked “the icm.” I’m not sure what to think now but I still don’t think white supremacy is a problem that the mental health system can deal with. I think the problem of white supremacy has to be dealt with through education and information. If people believe that the white race should reign supreme, terrible things will ensue no matter how “sane” or “insane” individual white suprrmists may or may not be. Mental health professionals like psychologists and psychiatrists can not currently prove that white supremacy is detached from reality. Psychologically or psychiatrically Hitler could have been considered to be completely “sane” even though he supported the vile ideology of white supremacy. An argument could be made that white supremacy is a mental illness but our society is nowhere near labelling it as such. Currently a few of our leaders and educators support white supremacy. I don’t think a political philosophy held by many people such as white supremacy can be regarded as a mental illness. Pharmaceutical companies like Pfizer and Eli Lilly might like the idea of prescribing medications for white supremacy but I don’t see how even they are wanting to even go there.

JKR

I think a strong case can be made that white supremacy exacerbates mental illness but the reverse is not true that mental illness exacerbates white supremacy.

contrarianna

Unionist wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Unionist wrote:

If only Hitler's disability had been identified and treated early...

Millions may have been spared. .....

....

It's a cultural and species-flattering blindness that chooses to see Hitler as merely an anomalous "mental breakdown" rather than as a charismatic figure that was ceded power and was idealized by much of Germany's population (and beyond) in the world's most technologically advanced modern state.

Variations on Hitler's racist ideas and eugenics programs pre-existed his rise and were commonplace accepted ideas in much of the "civilized" world, and was considered both politically and scientifically advanced.  Obviously, these views became (mostly) frowned upon after WWII. 

In in pre-war England there was a considerable support among the most educated and politically "progressive" to eliminate poverty by eliminating the poor--by sterilization (GB Shaw suggested a "lethal chamber" for the disabled)--since being in poverty equalled genetic inferiority. 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/feb/17/eugenics-skeleton-...

What if England lost the 1st WW and the political conditions had instead been ripe for a charismatic leader intent on such policies? 

What sort of psychotherapy is a corrective for a sick ideology when it is not seen as such in an existing system?Psychiatry has always been self-regulating and normative for societal expectations. Homosexuality was deemed an "illness" in the DSM until the 1970's.

As for the special "mental breakdown", of the New Zealand shooter, it is clear he wasn't that special when he chose training in the Christchurch environs, which had RWR training camps:

But the truth is, before Christchurch became the earthquake city, it was known as the skinhead city – the least multicultural of New Zealand’s three largest conurbations, 84% white at the last census compared with 74% for the country as a whole, with a steady, insidious white supremacist presence. There have been protests against Asian immigration since 2004. They are the city’s second-largest ethnic group but only make up 9.4% of the population. In 2010 a Korean backpacker was murdered. As a sociologist said of Christchurch the year after, following a racist campaign by a group called the Right Wing Resistance: “There’s a bit of a tradition of white supremacy.”....

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/mar/15/new-zealand-voices...

Who will provide the therapy for the political and media climate which, for this individual, became an excuse for personal action to supplement widely accepted state action?:

....Relatedly, Islamophobia has been exponentially inflamed by the mass media since 9/11 to justify the empire’s need to keep slaughtering human beings who happen to be walking around on top of oil and geostrategic locations. In his manifesto the attacker explicitly stated that he chose Muslims as the group of immigrants to target with his racist vendetta because “They are the most despised group of invaders in the West, attacking them receives the greatest level of support.” The reason Muslims are so despised is because the flames of Islamophobia have been fanned by propagandists who need us not to care about the cold-blooded murder of a million Iraqis.

https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2019/03/15/eight-thoughts-on-the-christchur...

 

Misfit Misfit's picture

And the idea from Sean from Ottawa that one cannot call this mass shooting or these people evil is wrong.  I am not in a position to say all but the overwhelming majority and theme of people who commit these hate motivated mass murders is that they are fully cognizant of what they are doing. When they are convicted of their crimes if they don’t mass murder and kill them selves first is that they go to maximum security prisons and not to mental institutions.

Psychopathy and sociopathy are not mental illnesses. They are character disorders. Psychopaths have no conscience or respect for others, no ability to feel empathy or remorse for their actions on others. They cannot be rehabilitated. They simply don’t care about the consequences of their actions. In fact, they enjoy hurting others. They enjoy the notoriety that they get from committing these crimes. Again they cannot be rehabilitated.

And what Unionist said about an entire society banding together to commit a horrific crime against humanity transcending the idea of mental illness is true.  Nazi Germany, Rwanda, Palestine, (Canada with residential schools, Japanese Canadians, Chinese slavery, black slavery in Canada and on and on and on).

Organizational hatred and fear of others we see as different from ourselves is fed with hate propoganda and demonizing  difference and feeding an ideology of self superiority in need of preservation from the threat of difference and of Having to share power, privelage and control over society. It is much easier to demonize others than it is to share responsibility and influence with people who do things differently than we do.  We are afraid of change. That fear and threat to our status and power over others can be fed and manipulated with hate propoganda.

It takes a lot of education and organizing and ground work and years of patience to slowly make changes. The feminist movement, LGBTQ movements, First Nations movements etc. highlight the years of arduous hard work that is involved to get those with the most power to change. It is not easy.

WWWTT

Possibly JKR? You and Sean in Ottawa are making some strong points and are serious about discussing debating the root causes that lead people to the fringes and over into committing horrific acts of violence. 

Bringing Hitler into this debate isn’t helpful so I’m not going to get sidetracked again. 

As far as hating the icm goes. On second thoughts, ya I guess I do hate them. I wouldn’t act out in any violent manner. I sure as well would never join or support them. Speaking out against them here on babble is probably the best I could do. 

Unionist

Thanks, contrarianna and Misfit, for bringing some common sense, grounded in historical reality, into this conversation.

Sean in Ottawa

So who diagnoses Psychopathy and sociopathy??? 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/psychopathy

"However, a true assessment should be conducted by a mental health professional."

Can it be cured? Maybe not. Diagnosed -- yes. Treated, perhaps. Can society be protected, warned, very possibly yes.

It is a disorder not evilness.

 

 

Misfit Misfit's picture

Mass murdering people is evil.

if you have no capacity to love others or feel empathy or compassion for any other sentinent being then you have a poverty of humanity and fall into the sphere of evilness.

 

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