Hate Crime in New Zealand: Mass Murder in the Mosques

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Misfit Misfit's picture

FSean,

i have worked with psychopaths and narcissists. You do not need a formal diagnosis to observe a pattern of sociopathical or narcissistic behaviour. Most narcissists and sociopaths are never formally diagnosed. That absence of a formal diagnosis does not negate the fact that they are antisocial.

any person can go to three different psychiatrists and get three different diagnoses. Psychiatry and the DSM is not etched in objective science. It is subjective and rooted in white male and western ideals of what is and ought to be.

contrariana alluded to the fact earlier on this thread that homosexuality was once classified as a mental illness in need of treatment and psychiatric chemical intervention. Many gay people lost their jobs and were forcefully institutionalized simply because white medical males in positions of power diagnosed them as being deviant and in need of forceful treatment and intervention. Forcing people to be chemically treated and forcefully restrained through institutionalization and restraints within those institutions because white male heterosexual psychiatrists viewed homosexuality as a disorder amounts to nothing more than barbaric torture and cruelty. You can call this legitimate medical treatment if you wish but psychiatry is a tool to forcefully remove unwanted people from mainstream society.

Homosexuality was voted out of the DSM as a mental illness not through scientific mechanisms at play but rather by a vote by attending psychiatrists. A democratic vote is not science nor is the creation of new DSM so-called mental disorders.

Susan Faludi devoted an entire chapter of her book Backlash: the Undeclared War against American Women to the role psychiatrists and psychiatry plays in oppressing women. She stresses the role of non-science and  white male social values and attitudes in the creation of new female specific medical conditions that can be used by the courts to take away women’s children and to turn custody of the children over to their fathers some of whom are alleged to have abused their children.

Medical treatment simply means to do something. Although it is implied that treatment entails an improvement of an existing condition this is simply not true. We assume that people who are treated for  so-called mental illness are properly rehabilitated yet this is another fallacy of the mental health system and does not hold merit. Far too many  fail to realize that the drugs that psychiatrists and medical doctors prescribe for mental issues are highly toxic and create a long list of negative side effects. Major tranquillizers given to “schizophrenic” people reduce life expectancy by 25 years when used long term and causes tardive diskinesia -irreversible neurological damage.

counselling is also a form of brainwashing. The tenet behind counselling is that the client as ideas and beliefs that are wrong and through a three month counselling term the client is able to see the undesirability of their own ideas in favour of what the counsellor determines is a proper way to perceive the client’s situation. 

Ive used this example beofre in another thread on Babble but I will use it again. There are African cultures where when a close family member dies you talk to the spirit of the deceased family member and you bring the spirit of the deceased into your own life to be a part of you. In white male western thinking ie psychiatry this ritual or process is viewed as a delusion, a psychiatric condition in need of chemical intervention and the refusal to accept chemical intervention results in forced institutionalization, a loss of a job or income, a medical diagnosis that can be socially stigmatizing and used against them in a court of law to discredit their integrity or testimony at trial and much much more. Yet they have been treated and if they refrain from believing in their cultural traditions they can be considered “rehabilitated”.

NorthReport
iyraste1313

All this talk about right wing extremism and mental sickness is fine enough...but does not explain...The guy and his partners was a trained assassin...where did this training come from...his weaponry was sophisticated....how did he get this equipment into New Zealand...we must dig deeper to understand what has happened...He travelled frequently throughout Europe, spent time in Israel and Syria, in the camps...without any record of employment nor earnings?

Lots of questions that cannot be answered by psycho analysis.....

NorthReport
NorthReport
NorthReport
WWWTT

iyraste1313 wrote:

All this talk about right wing extremism and mental sickness is fine enough...but does not explain...The guy and his partners was a trained assassin...where did this training come from...his weaponry was sophisticated....how did he get this equipment into New Zealand...we must dig deeper to understand what has happened...He travelled frequently throughout Europe, spent time in Israel and Syria, in the camps...without any record of employment nor earnings?

Lots of questions that cannot be answered by psycho analysis.....

If he was a trained assassin or mercenary, then that would explain how easily he can commit these crimes. And the other points you’re raising are all good questions. I would expect the icm to drop coverage of this story when it all comes out. 

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

iyraste1313 wrote:

All this talk about right wing extremism and mental sickness is fine enough...but does not explain...The guy and his partners was a trained assassin...where did this training come from...his weaponry was sophisticated....how did he get this equipment into New Zealand...we must dig deeper to understand what has happened...He travelled frequently throughout Europe, spent time in Israel and Syria, in the camps...without any record of employment nor earnings?

Lots of questions that cannot be answered by psycho analysis.....

He had a licence for his guns and bought them legally. Ardern and her cabinet will be introducing changes to NZ gun laws. 

iyraste1313

He had a licence for his guns and bought them legally. Ardern and her cabinet will be introducing changes to NZ gun laws. ....

please what are your sources for this? Government sources?
I have read various accounts, some suggesting sophisticated and modified weaponry, fabricated in the USA, requiring law enforcement type permits, not available neither in NZ nor Australia....so how were these weapons transported?

I dwell on this, a ´glitch´in the matrix´? as this incident may be terribly revealing about the powers behind the throne...

lagatta4

The Dead are also present among Meso-American (Mexican and Central American) cultures. The day of the dead isn't morbid, it is the day the friendly dead relatives and friends return for a moment to be among the living.

NDPP, I don't think anyone here supports the mass murder of Yemenis (or Iraqis) or thinks their fate was any kinder.

A good Le Monde article (in French) about the so-called Great Replacement: https://www.lemonde.fr/les-decodeurs/article/2019/03/15/la-theorie-du-gr... If I find an English translation, I'll post it.  This is the pseudo-intellectual version; then you have Trump ranting about "chain migrations" (which are normal human behaviour and have pretty much always existed) for the dumbed-down version.

iyraste1313

The official facts of the Christchurch terror attacks will likely shift over time in the same way that official narratives fed to the public by federal investigators changed constantly in the aftermath of the 2017 Las Vegas shooting. But the apparent military and intelligence connections of perpetrators in the attack, the discrepancies between the official reports about the size of the group of suspects and footage of the event as it unfolded and the operational similarities to the North Korean embassy incident will continue to erode confidence that the public is being given all the facts.

3/17/2019: This article was updated with new details regarding emerging facts and clarification about police response times. Unfortunately, the New Zealand government has engaged in unprecedented censorship of the event and videos of the incident have all been taken offline.....zerohedge

NDPP

Allies in Hate: Soldiers of Odin and the Jewish Defence League

http://warrenkinsella.com/2017/04/allies-in-hate-soldiers-of-odin-and-th...

Why not start here?

NorthReport

Not only New Zealand, but perhaps Canada as well

New Zealand has been 'naïve' about right-wing extremism, says researcher

ME: Would it be too outrageous to suggest that they weren't detected because he was white and Christian? 

PS: Yes, it would be. I think the authorities in New Zealand are aware that the extreme right do present a threat. But we tend to be naïve in another way ... We tend to think that extreme right-wing politics is something that you would find with the English Defence League in the U.K. or with some of the groups you find in the Netherlands or Germany or France. It's not something that we have in New Zealand. I found it very frustrating to say, 'Well, actually we do have.' There's always the potential for these people to act out their violence. Often they don't, but there's always that potential.

ME: Obviously it's an international phenomenon. Every country, as you've pointed out, is vulnerable. How can governments deal with the right-wing extremists if many of them don't believe they exist?

PS: The difficulty is that you in Canada or in the U.S.A. might react locally to people who are expressing hate speech and who are acting violently locally. But we've got to find some way of dealing with it internationally because it's not inevitably a domestic problem for one particular government. It needs international action.

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thesundayedition/the-sunday-edition-for-march-1...

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

iyraste1313 wrote:

He had a licence for his guns and bought them legally. Ardern and her cabinet will be introducing changes to NZ gun laws. ....

please what are your sources for this? Government sources?
I have read various accounts, some suggesting sophisticated and modified weaponry, fabricated in the USA, requiring law enforcement type permits, not available neither in NZ nor Australia....so how were these weapons transported?

I dwell on this, a ´glitch´in the matrix´? as this incident may be terribly revealing about the powers behind the throne...

Multiple articles. Go use google yourself, I'm not your secretary.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Alienation

Karl Marx's theory of alienation describes the estrangement (Entfremdung) of people from aspects of their Gattungswesen ("species-essence") as a consequence of living in a society of stratified social classes. The alienation from the self is a consequence of being a mechanistic part of a social class, the condition of which estranges a person from their humanity.

..this is what i related to the most when i began my political enlightenment as a young man many many years ago. since then i've been able to expand on it..see this alienation all around me. in how we can tolerate the abuse of woman, the humiliation of work, our governments and corporations dumping on us with us never getting a say. killing us. blaming ourselves if we are not successful in life. even our education is one that teaches us of a fantasy world that takes us sometimes many years to deconstruct. all this represents mental illness. i'm a great believer in mental health clinic in all communities.

..and this our society is pumping out crazy stuff like these murders and more. but i see it as constructed by the system/society we live in. even after getting rid of capitalism it will take generations to recover from the damage caused. this is not to say people are not responsible. it just means that how society responds should be to acknowledge what is going on all around us and find a better way of dealing with this than dehumanization, killing or throwing the person responsible into a deep dark hole for the rest of their life.

Unionist

epaulo13 wrote:

[...] see this alienation all around me. in how we can tolerate the abuse of woman, the humiliation of work, our governments and corporations dumping on us with us never getting a say. killing us. blaming ourselves if we are not successful in life. even our education is one that teaches us of a fantasy world that takes us sometimes many years to deconstruct. all this represents mental illness. i'm a great believer in mental health clinic in all communities.

I agree. As long as we recognize one important fact. Mental illness is the effect. It is not the cause. And without uprooting the cause, the illness will continue.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Unionist wrote:

epaulo13 wrote:

[...] see this alienation all around me. in how we can tolerate the abuse of woman, the humiliation of work, our governments and corporations dumping on us with us never getting a say. killing us. blaming ourselves if we are not successful in life. even our education is one that teaches us of a fantasy world that takes us sometimes many years to deconstruct. all this represents mental illness. i'm a great believer in mental health clinic in all communities.

I agree. As long as we recognize one important fact. Mental illness is the effect. It is not the cause. And without uprooting the cause, the illness will continue.

..exactly, we must make that change. otherwise in these days of further corporate concentration on top of the ecological destruction damage will more than likely increase along with it.

Paladin1

iyraste1313 wrote:

He had a licence for his guns and bought them legally. Ardern and her cabinet will be introducing changes to NZ gun laws. ....

please what are your sources for this? Government sources?
I have read various accounts, some suggesting sophisticated and modified weaponry, fabricated in the USA, requiring law enforcement type permits, not available neither in NZ nor Australia....so how were these weapons transported?

Everything I've read suggests the same thing. He was able to get a gun license and purchase firearms legally.

A firearms licence isn't a 100% prevention tool anymore than it would be to make computer owners get a licence in order to prevent illegal pornography. Or drivers license prevent DUIs.

I think the OMG change the firearms laws! is an over reaction that the shooter wanted to happen.  NZ has considerably less restrictive gun laws than Austrailia. They concerned themselves primarily with the liscensing system rather than targeting sepcific firearms. In this case it didn't work.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

I don't think it's being proposed as a 100% prevention tool, Paladin, so let's dispense with the false binary.

I think it's a rational reaction to a horrific event. While it won't be the absolute or only measure, it will go some way to making such a thing more difficult in the future.

It seems that the shooter wanted to galvanize conflict over firearms, among other things. I'm not sure whether it matters in the long run. He was counting on violent opposition to the change in firearms law in New Zealand, but I also think his intended audience was broader - stoking paranoia in the US appears to have been part of his intended outcome. But so what? The people who are going to protest it and are going to get more paranoid are already mental motherfuckers.

Paladin1

Timebandit wrote:

I don't think it's being proposed as a 100% prevention tool, Paladin, so let's dispense with the false binary.

Sure it is. In this very thread. Take a look.

Quote:
I think it's a rational reaction to a horrific event. While it won't be the absolute or only measure, it will go some way to making such a thing more difficult in the future.

I think it's an emotional reaction to a horrific event. I'm not disagreeing that it won't possibly make mass shootings more difficult.  Given the depth of hate from this guy and the time he planned it I'd bet he would have found a different method (knife, bomb, truck, nerve gas).  Maybe there would have been less deaths, maybe there would be more.

Also, honest querstion, if New Zealand (or Canada) banned all firearms and someone took a large knife or sword and killed two dozen people would you say we should ban large knives and swords like the UK did?

Quote:
It seems that the shooter wanted to galvanize conflict over firearms, among other things. I'm not sure whether it matters in the long run. He was counting on violent opposition to the change in firearms law in New Zealand, but I also think his intended audience was broader - stoking paranoia in the US appears to have been part of his intended outcome. But so what? The people who are going to protest it and are going to get more paranoid are already mental motherfuckers.

You're right he wanted a broader audience (his words). He wanted the American left to push for gun control including attacking the 2nd amendment which would of course infuriate the right/gun owners (though there's lots of left-wing gun owners too). He wanted wanted chaos and to fuel left vs right polarization.

Paladin1

Looking at how to buy a gun in New Zeland vs Austrailia vs Canada

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/02/world/international-gun-l...

It looks like NZ is just as difficult, I'd say moreso, than Austrailia to buy a gun.

New Zealand

1Pass a background check that considers criminal, medical, mental health and domestic violence records. 2Provide character references. 3Authorities interview or advise, in person, your partner or next of kin. 4Pass a home security inspection that checks for proper firearm storage. 5Take a gun safety course. 6Wait for approval for a firearms license, which could take weeks or months. 7Buy a gun.

Australia

1Join and regularly attend a hunting or shooting club, or document that you are a collector. 2Complete a course on firearm safety and operation, and pass a written test and practical assessment. 3Arrange firearm storage that meets safety regulations. 4Pass a review that considers criminal history, domestic violence, restraining orders and arrest history. Authorities may also interview your family and community members. 5Apply for a permit to acquire a specific type of weapon. 6Wait at least 28 days. 7Buy the specific type of gun for which you received a permit.

Canada

1To buy a handgun, prove that you practice at an approved shooting club or range, or show that you are a gun collector. 2For any gun, complete a safety course and pass both a written and a practical test. 3Ask for two references. 4Apply for a permit, and wait 28 days before processing begins. 5Pass a background check that considers your criminal record, mental health, addiction and domestic violence history. 6Buy a gun. If you bought a handgun, register it with the police before taking it home.

Sean in Ottawa

Unionist wrote:

epaulo13 wrote:

[...] see this alienation all around me. in how we can tolerate the abuse of woman, the humiliation of work, our governments and corporations dumping on us with us never getting a say. killing us. blaming ourselves if we are not successful in life. even our education is one that teaches us of a fantasy world that takes us sometimes many years to deconstruct. all this represents mental illness. i'm a great believer in mental health clinic in all communities.

I agree. As long as we recognize one important fact. Mental illness is the effect. It is not the cause. And without uprooting the cause, the illness will continue.

I cannot agree to this. Seeing this as a cause and effect is extremely simplistic and few real world dynamics work exclusively in one direction. Many people hold hateful views but do not make a decision that leads to mass murder. Even physical and mental illness can often not be seen as a one direction phenomenon but more like a feedback loop. Mental illness can diminish the ability to have a hold on reality, it can make a person lose track of inhibitions, it can damage cognition, impulse control and judgment. It won't create the hate itself but together with the hate it will create the circumstances for the breakdown. It is also not clear that hate always produces mental illness. Some hateful people are more rational than others. On the other hand we have had people convert to a new religion in the midst of a mental health crisis because they are attracted by the cause of violence they think is part of the religion.

It is not a simple dynamic as being suggested here. I am tired of the conversation of trying to prove the benefits of mental health services to public safety. I was shocked to see this come up like this as it has long been NDP policy. It also has long been something we speak about here when people claim to be Muslim, do acts of terror, but are really seriously ill.

Of course there seems to be a desire here to reverse what the main stream media does making the mistake in the opposite direction: a Muslim is seen as an evil fanatic by the news but a white supremacist is seen as an ill person acting alone by the media. Here we seem to want to reverse this -- even though these people are likely not hugely different.  Their difference is that the mainstream culture tells them that Muslims are terrorists and in so many ways eggs on and honours and promotes white supremacy. Both sources of terror are supported by the main stream culture and both appeal to weak individuals unable to control their hate and without the ability to see the world around them rationally. Few seem willing to see this as two sides of a similar coin even though they have so much in common.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Islamophobia is practically enshrined as public policy in Australia

The worst terror attack in New Zealand’s modern history took place on Friday, and the alleged perpetrator is an Australian.

Appropriately, this calamity has started a process of deep reflection in the man’s home country. Everywhere, decent Australians are asking, how did we get here? Do we own him?

There has been extensive, international discussion about the role of the online subculture of the far right in these events – the codes, memes and signals of internet-mediated white supremacy.

There’s been less reflection on the fact that any 28-year-old in Australia has grown up in a period when racism, xenophobia and a hostility to Muslims in particular, were quickly ratcheting up in the country’s public culture.

In the period of the country’s enthusiastic participation in the War on Terror, Islam and Muslims have frequently been treated as public enemies, and hate speech against them has inexorably been normalised.

Australian racism did not of course begin in 2001. The country was settled by means of a genocidal frontier war, and commenced its independent existence with the exclusion of non-white migrants. White nationalism was practically Australia’s founding doctrine.

But a succession of events in the first year of the millennium led to Islamophobia being practically enshrined as public policy.....

Noops

epaulo13 wrote:

But a succession of events in the first year of the millennium led to Islamophobia being practically enshrined as public policy.....

And later when it was later discovered that the events in the first year of the millennium were false flag events,
the public was not enlightened by the MSM about it.

Hence Islamophobia took root.

 

 

WWWTT

Unionist wrote:

epaulo13 wrote:

[...] see this alienation all around me. in how we can tolerate the abuse of woman, the humiliation of work, our governments and corporations dumping on us with us never getting a say. killing us. blaming ourselves if we are not successful in life. even our education is one that teaches us of a fantasy world that takes us sometimes many years to deconstruct. all this represents mental illness. i'm a great believer in mental health clinic in all communities.

I agree. As long as we recognize one important fact. Mental illness is the effect. It is not the cause. And without uprooting the cause, the illness will continue.

I agree as well. Not in all cases, but probably to a much wider extent than what most people would admit. We can probably expand on the effects of materialism greed and vanity driven by the icm for pages

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

 ..sean this is my complete post. i don't see anything simplistic about it. the theory of alienation in itself a brilliant bit of analysis that is quite relevant today.

epaulo13 wrote:

Alienation

Karl Marx's theory of alienation describes the estrangement (Entfremdung) of people from aspects of their Gattungswesen ("species-essence") as a consequence of living in a society of stratified social classes. The alienation from the self is a consequence of being a mechanistic part of a social class, the condition of which estranges a person from their humanity.

..this is what i related to the most when i began my political enlightenment as a young man many many years ago. since then i've been able to expand on it..see this alienation all around me. in how we can tolerate the abuse of woman, the humiliation of work, our governments and corporations dumping on us with us never getting a say. killing us. blaming ourselves if we are not successful in life. even our education is one that teaches us of a fantasy world that takes us sometimes many years to deconstruct. all this represents mental illness. i'm a great believer in mental health clinic in all communities.

..and this our society is pumping out crazy stuff like these murders and more. but i see it as constructed by the system/society we live in. even after getting rid of capitalism it will take generations to recover from the damage caused. this is not to say people are not responsible. it just means that how society responds should be to acknowledge what is going on all around us and find a better way of dealing with this than dehumanization, killing or throwing the person responsible into a deep dark hole for the rest of their life.

Pondering

Is it mental illness to enjoy hangings and witch burnings? Didn't that used to be called public entertainment? I will never forget learning about the Holocaust. It was mentally traumatizing. Before that all I had heard about was "Indians" burning missionaries and scalping people. I was only 10 or 11 so that was the olden days. To discover that so recently an entire normal advanced educated country was capable of following such a sick obviously ignorant man to the point of mass murder of babies terrified me. This meant the people I knew, the adults around me, the children I went to school with, were capable of extreme cruelty.

Perfectly sane people are fully capable of mass murder and extreme cruelty. It isn't a mental illness.

The fact is perfectly normal human beings are fully capable of commiting atrocities for a multitude of reasons. It is no more mentally ill than being extra charitable is a mental illness or robbing a bank is a mental illness. 

I think we first have to accept that extreme violence is a normal human capability not mental illness nor brainwashing. The majority of human behavior is rooted in nothing more than conditioning informed by habit and opinion. We can choose what we condition ourselves to but it is still conditioning. 

There are no simple answers to dealing with the phenomena of mass killing by individuals or governments. 

We are shocked because it isn't supposed to happen "here" meaning the western world. "Here" such extreme violence can only be the product of a deranged mind with access to weaponry. 

I am a strong supporter of gun control but we can't defend ourselves from extreme violence. I am puzzled why terrorists haven't sabotaged gas lines or facilities yet. People blow up houses and apartment buildings accidently. Would it be that difficult to sabotage a rail line in a critical spot? This man in New Zealand also had explosives. He planned for a long time. If he didn't have access to those weapons he would have planned a different attack. We can take away their guns which could prevent some disorganized less determined attackers but my sense of the most deadly ones is that lack of guns would not have stopped them. I think they power trip on the method, enjoy the shoot-em-up adrenalin rush, but they would find another way easily enough. 

NDPP
NorthReport
NorthReport
NorthReport

What’s it going take for media to clean up their respective acts and stop providing platforms to these sickos

https://nonotoriety.com/

NDPP

The Jimmy Dore Show

https://youtu.be/8s0ELmuI8WM

"Chelsea Clinton confronted over Ilhan Omar remarks at Muslim vigil."

Paladin1

Off topic

NDPP

Governments and Media Seek to Cover Up Culpability For Fascist Attack in New Zealand

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2019/03/19/chri-m19.html

"Decades of anti-immigrant xenophobia have given rise to not only racist parties such as One Nation, but myriad right-wing nad neo-fascist groups. This is the toxic political atmosphere in which Tarrant grew up in an Australian regional town, the kind of location where the extreme right has particularly concentrated its efforts to recruit support. 

In New Zealand, the Labour Party-NZ First coalition government headed by Jacinda Ardern came to power on an explicit program of slashing immigration on the false grounds it was responsible for housing and other social problems..."

WWWTT

not sure she should get any prize?

I did some quick research on her and she is somewhat of a radical progressive. However she does have one particular belief towards immigration that does raise some suspicion. 

This happened under her watch, not sure if it’s fair to pin any of this on her? But I now if this attack happened in the US, Trump would be blamed for it from many  

 

Noops

Guys and gals, you are way off on a tangent here!
This wasn't some sicko lone gunman commiting an horrific act in New Zealand.

This was a Gladio event.

This guy was a known 'terrorist' who was left to parade around the world for years
doing his evil deeds under direction.

Please do some more research on him that the MSM is deliberately avoiding.

https://www.newsbud.com/2019/03/18/nz-mass-shooting-suspect-in-turkey-for-2016-istanbul-bombing-targeting-jews/comment-page-1/#comment-58514
 

Sean in Ottawa

Noops wrote:

Guys and gals, you are way off on a tangent here!
This wasn't some sicko lone gunman commiting an horrific act in New Zealand.

This was a Gladio event.

This guy was a known 'terrorist' who was left to parade around the world for years
doing his evil deeds under direction.

Please do some more research on him that the MSM is deliberately avoiding.

https://www.newsbud.com/2019/03/18/nz-mass-shooting-suspect-in-turkey-for-2016-istanbul-bombing-targeting-jews/comment-page-1/#comment-58514
 

This is part of the problem when we loop discussions about a specific event into discussions about the issue generally.

There is no indication in this case that the perpetrator was ill.

There have been plenty of indications that others have been.

To say that mental health support in diagnosis, treatment, etc can save lives is not the same as saying they could prevent all attacks or that this specific attack could have been prevented.

iyraste1313

This wasn't some sicko lone gunman commiting an horrific act in New Zealand....

thanks for this...first there are a number involved and have been arrested...and yes the anomalies are overwhelming, not to mention the lies about the so called lone gunman...but of course anyone suggesting conspiracy theories or false flags are considered nuts, and of course antisemitic......as I suggested before, the expose of this bungled false flag was a serious glitch in their matrix...and just maybe this time, its unravelling will cause heads and I mean institutions to fall...

Misfit Misfit's picture

Paladin1 wrote:
Off topic

I disagree. It was very much on topic. It shows how low some will stoop to blame Muslim’s for the attacks against them as though a Muslim female congressperson is to blame because she spoke up about aparteid style oppression against Palestinians perpetrated by the Jews.

The rationale is akin to...

The Jews are to blame for the Holocaust because they...

It is called blaming the victim. If the Muslims weren’t so angry, combative, confrontational, and visibly different then we wouldn’t have to hate them and kill them and then blame them for their own deaths.

NDPP

Excellent take on this by Bernard Behrens:

Christchurch Happens Every Day in the War of Terror

http://rabble.ca/columnists/2019/03/christchurch-happens-every-day-war-t...

"As we mourn the victims of the terrorist atrocity in New Zealand - where at least 50 Muslim worshippers were mowed down by a white supremacist partially inspired by Donald Trump - many are looking for answers to the inevitable questions of why and how.

To answer these questions and explore how we might prevent such terrorist acts, it may be helpful to recognize that what happened at Christchurch  - mass murder produced as the logical result of a long-running political epoch that is almost singularly defined by the dehumanization and demonization of Muslims, Arabs and anyone perceived as such --happen every day.

As in any war, atrocities are the norm, not the aberration..."

Unionist

Misfit wrote:

Paladin1 wrote:
Off topic

I disagree. It was very much on topic. It shows how low some will stoop to blame Muslim’s for the attacks against them as though a Muslim female congressperson is to blame because she spoke up about aparteid style oppression against Palestinians perpetrated by the Jews.

The rationale is akin to...

The Jews are to blame for the Holocaust because they...

It is called blaming the victim. If the Muslims weren’t so angry, combative, confrontational, and visibly different then we wouldn’t have to hate them and kill them and then blame them for their own deaths.

Well said.

NorthReport

Agreed!

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

NDPP wrote:

Excellent take on this by Bernard Behrens:

Christchurch Happens Every Day in the War of Terror

http://rabble.ca/columnists/2019/03/christchurch-happens-every-day-war-t...

"As we mourn the victims of the terrorist atrocity in New Zealand - where at least 50 Muslim worshippers were mowed down by a white supremacist partially inspired by Donald Trump - many are looking for answers to the inevitable questions of why and how.

To answer these questions and explore how we might prevent such terrorist acts, it may be helpful to recognize that what happened at Christchurch  - mass murder produced as the logical result of a long-running political epoch that is almost singularly defined by the dehumanization and demonization of Muslims, Arabs and anyone perceived as such --happen every day.

As in any war, atrocities are the norm, not the aberration..."

I have to agree on this one. There is no reason to be more upset about the dozens of killings in NZ than about the thousands of killings in Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, and other targets of the phony "war on terror".

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Unionist wrote:

Misfit wrote:

Paladin1 wrote:
Off topic

I disagree. It was very much on topic. It shows how low some will stoop to blame Muslim’s for the attacks against them as though a Muslim female congressperson is to blame because she spoke up about aparteid style oppression against Palestinians perpetrated by the Jews.

The rationale is akin to...

The Jews are to blame for the Holocaust because they...

It is called blaming the victim. If the Muslims weren’t so angry, combative, confrontational, and visibly different then we wouldn’t have to hate them and kill them and then blame them for their own deaths.

Well said.

Thanks Misfit for your numerous on point posts in this thread.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Most mental illnesses do not absolve the individual of responsibility for their actions because they may be ill but they are not delusional. This mass murder's mental health is irrelevant to the fact that he knew what he was doing and therefore under our system of law he is guilty of a morally reprehensible crime.

A person can suffer from a very serious mental illness and not meet the requirements of a s. 16 NCR finding and therefore still be held criminally responsible for committing the offence. Canadian law pertaining to this specific issue as summarized above states that everyone is assumed to be understand the nature and quality of their acts or omissions and know right from wrong. i.e. they are presumed to be “sane”. In order to prove an NCR defence, the burden is clearly on the defence to prove to a balance of probability that the defendant suffered from a mental disorder at the time of the offence which prevented him or her from understanding the nature and quality of their act or did not realize that what they were doing was wrong.

https://www.kruselaw.ca/blogpost/not-criminally-responsible

This murderous evil man had mental health issues but he was held responsible for his actions because in British based legal system he is considered morally culpable. Yes we get to name and shame him as evil and morally reprehensible without having to show him anymore empathy than he showed his victims. In 20 years from now if he has repented and is in a rainbow coalition while he serves his time I will then think about forgiveness for his morally reprehensible actions.

During the trial, defence attorney Luc Leclair argued that Magnotta was in a psychotic state at the time of the crimes and couldn't be held responsible for his actions. The Crown prosecutor argued that the murder of Jun Lin was organized and premeditated and that Magnotta was "purposeful, mindful, ultra-organized and ultimately responsible for his actions."[96]

Magnotta chose not to testify during the trial.[96]

After a 12-week trial which included 10 weeks of hearing testimony, the jury of eight women and four men received final instructions from the trial judge on December 15, 2014, and was sequestered before beginning its deliberations the next day.[96] On their eighth day of deliberation, they returned a verdict of guilty on all charges.[97] Magnotta will serve a mandatory life sentence and will be eligible for parole in 25 years. He was also sentenced to 19 years for other charges, to be served concurrently.[98]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luka_Magnotta

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Most mental illnesses do not absolve the individual of responsibility for their actions because they may be ill but they are not delusional. This mass murder's mental health is irrelevant to the fact that he knew what he was doing and therefore under our system of law he is guilty of a morally reprehensible crime.

A person can suffer from a very serious mental illness and not meet the requirements of a s. 16 NCR finding and therefore still be held criminally responsible for committing the offence. Canadian law pertaining to this specific issue as summarized above states that everyone is assumed to be understand the nature and quality of their acts or omissions and know right from wrong. i.e. they are presumed to be “sane”. In order to prove an NCR defence, the burden is clearly on the defence to prove to a balance of probability that the defendant suffered from a mental disorder at the time of the offence which prevented him or her from understanding the nature and quality of their act or did not realize that what they were doing was wrong.

https://www.kruselaw.ca/blogpost/not-criminally-responsible

This murderous evil man had mental health issues but he was held responsible for his actions because in British based legal system he is considered morally culpable. Yes we get to name and shame him as evil and morally reprehensible without having to show him anymore empathy than he showed his victims. In 20 years from now if he has repented and is in a rainbow coalition while he serves his time I will then think about forgiveness for his morally reprehensible actions.

During the trial, defence attorney Luc Leclair argued that Magnotta was in a psychotic state at the time of the crimes and couldn't be held responsible for his actions. The Crown prosecutor argued that the murder of Jun Lin was organized and premeditated and that Magnotta was "purposeful, mindful, ultra-organized and ultimately responsible for his actions."[96]

Magnotta chose not to testify during the trial.[96]

After a 12-week trial which included 10 weeks of hearing testimony, the jury of eight women and four men received final instructions from the trial judge on December 15, 2014, and was sequestered before beginning its deliberations the next day.[96] On their eighth day of deliberation, they returned a verdict of guilty on all charges.[97] Magnotta will serve a mandatory life sentence and will be eligible for parole in 25 years. He was also sentenced to 19 years for other charges, to be served concurrently.[98]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luka_Magnotta

Who on earth is suggesting that mental illness in these cases is absolution?

The issue is identification and some times the possibility of intervention.

It does not change the fact that they are ill -- nor the fact that they are responsible, It will not prevent many of the acts.

But it might save some lives. And that is the point.

The cost to society is to provide mental health supports to everyone who needs it who are not dangerous. A small price to pay given we should be oding that anyway. If we save some lives in the process that is a good thing.

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Sorry Sean but I find the idea that we need better mental health services a tangent that does not belong in the context of a mass murderer who clearly had a political agenda and belonged to a terrorist group. I don't think you mean it as one but it looks like a red herring to deflect from the real debate about white supremacy in ex-British settler states.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

I think the discussion around the NZ killer's mental health status is sheer speculation, but it does raise some questions.

At what point do we consider an ideology a mental health problem? Or at what point does the commitment to an ideology amount to a mental illness?

I don't think this is about mental illness - it's about culture, worldview and political ideology.

Unionist

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Sorry Sean but I find the idea that we need better mental health services a tangent that does not belong in the context of a mass murderer who clearly had a political agenda and belonged to a terrorist group. I don't think you mean it as one but it looks like a red herring to deflect from the real debate about white supremacy in ex-British settler states.

I don't think Sean means it as a red herring. But that just shows how insidious this diversionary crap is. I haven't heard too many rants about the need to improve mental health services in Afghanistan or Syria or Iraq or Palestine in order to "save lives". Just kill the terrorist scumbags. But when it comes to white Western males - they must be sick.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..mental illness is prevalent throughout our society. to suggest that the slaughter of people whether in war or in mass killing is normal is preposterous. it may be it is what we are capable of but it is not normal. this mental illness does not mean people are not responsible. what it means is that we need broaden our view from looking at the individual and try to understand the roots of the mental illness and make that change. on the plus side trying to force that change is a part of the therapy.

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