Hate Crime in New Zealand: Mass Murder in the Mosques

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Misfit Misfit's picture

Timebandit wrote:

I think the discussion around the NZ killer's mental health status is sheer speculation, but it does raise some questions.

At what point do we consider an ideology a mental health problem? Or at what point does the commitment to an ideology amount to a mental illness?

I don't think this is about mental illness - it's about culture, worldview and political ideology.

i get what you are saying but I believe that this line of thinking is very dangerous and I will show you why.

I think the discussion around socialism and the social democrat’s mental health status is sheer speculation, but it does raise some questions.

At what point do we consider an ideology a mental health problem? Or at what point does the commitment to an ideology amount to a mental illness?

I don't think this is about mental illness - it's about culture, worldview and political ideology.”

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

 ..i believe mental illness is the result of the political economic systems we live in. not all of it but if i was to hazard a quess at least 75% of it.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

If we can apply the label of mental illness to white nationalism, it can be applied to socialism or social democracy as well. And that's part of my point.

The NZ killer is a white nationalist who was committed enough to his ideology to kill for it. There's no indication that his beliefs mean he's mentally ill in a clinical sense. The answer to this isn't beefing up mental health services.

ETA: I deal with a variety of mental illness permutations in my family constellation. You can't apply "mental illness" to everything, otherwise it becomes meaningless and it becomes harder to get treatment to people who actually need and want it.

tl:dr If everything is mental illness, then nothing is.

Misfit Misfit's picture

TB, I agree.

eta.

Labelling any idology a mental illness is very dangerous. It can be used by governments to institutionalize dissidents and people opposed to their rule of law for so-called medical grounds.

 

Unionist

Thanks, Misfit and TB.

Someone who amasses billions of dollars, exploiting the labour and resources of others, and lives a life of obscene luxury, while countless millions live in poverty... that person must be mentally ill, no? It's not normal, is it? Yet even their billions can't buy them a cure.

And what about the victims of bombings and invasions and terror attacks? If you look at it, many of them are physically disabled, some to the point of death. We need to beef up our investment in health care, for physical illness as well.

I think this whole new perspective on racism, colonialism, and war is important. It's fresh, forward-looking... and above all, so healthy!!!

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Yes. Also added to my post.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..white nationalism isn't a mental illness it is a structure. as monsanto is or the us military. working there requires people to dismantle their humanity. that ability to dismantle that humanity begins early in life. it is not just a stumbling upon. and that process is, i believe mental illness.  

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

tl:dr If everything is mental illness, then nothing is.

..do you think this is what i am implying timebandit? that everything is mental illness?

Paladin1

Misfit wrote:

Paladin1 wrote:
Off topic

I disagree. It was very much on topic. It shows how low some will stoop to blame Muslim’s for the attacks against them as though a Muslim female congressperson is to blame because she spoke up about aparteid style oppression against Palestinians perpetrated by the Jews.

The rationale is akin to...

The Jews are to blame for the Holocaust because they...

It is called blaming the victim. If the Muslims weren’t so angry, combative, confrontational, and visibly different then we wouldn’t have to hate them and kill them and then blame them for their own deaths.

 

Sorry for the confusion Misfit. I wrote Off topic because I was editing my post for being off topic. I forgot to write "editing" before saying off topic.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

epaulo13 wrote:

tl:dr If everything is mental illness, then nothing is.

..do you think this is what i am implying timebandit? that everything is mental illness?

I think that it blurs the line and lessens the importance of treating clinical mental illnesses. Being subjected to stress can exacerbate some mental illness, but it doesn't necessarily rise to the clinical level. You can be unhappy or stressed out, but that's not the same as mental illness.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
You can be unhappy or stressed out, but that's not the same as mental illness.

I think that a lot of things that used to be considered a normal part of life have been medicalized.

It's why we have "therapy animals".  They're not just for people in palliative care, or the pediatric oncology ward -- now they're necessary for people with anxiety to be able to go to the mall.

Paladin1

Came across an interesting piece by Rod Dreher who read the NZ shooters manifesto and took away some points. I'll post just the points below.

I think in our rush to label the shooter as either a boogyman for the left or right wing, we over look many other possibilities.

Quote:

  1. Tarrant identifies himself as an “ethno-nationalist eco-fascist.” He says he was first a communist, then an anarchist, then a libertarian, and finally an eco-fascist. He’s 28. This is not a stable person.
  2. He despises conservatives for having conserved nothing. “Conservatism is corporatism in disguise, I want no part of it,” he writes. He adds, in all caps, “CONSERVATISM IS DEAD, THANK GOD.” He also despises France’s National Front, or whatever it’s called today. He calls them “milquetoast.” He praises the emergence of Trump as a sign of hope, but mocks Trump too. He says his idea leader is Oswald Mosley, the 20th century British fascist. Point is, the idea that Tarrant has any meaningful connection to the mainstream right is nonsense. The man is true radical.
  3. He says his aim is to accelerate history by frightening people and creating conflict. In particular, he wants to cause the US to move to take away people’s guns, and the Second Amendment supporters to respond to this violently.
  4. He wants the US to be balkanized into warring racial and regional factions, to destroy the ability of the US to project power around the world.
  5. He was radicalized by traveling in Europe and seeing immigrant crime, by seeing how many immigrants are present, and how the dispirited native populations are dying out. Overcome by emotion, he decided that he must do something about it.
  6. He said he chose the firearms for his attack specifically to incite an argument within the US, leading to the left attempting to confiscate guns, thereby starting a civil war.
  7. He says he is not a Nazi, but it’s hard to know what to make of his politics except to say that he is a national socialist obsessed with race, and hating capitalism. Plus, he loves the environment (“there is no traditionalism without environmentalism”).
  8. This was a brutal slap: “Above all, don’t be stale, placid, and boring. No one is inspired by Jeb Bush.”
  9. He praises the People’s Republic of China as his ideal state.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..i have slept on it and believe in my initial response i was over thinking it in that i couldn't respond in this thread. sorry.

..the main thrust in my talking about mental illness in the context of this thread i have focused on dehumanization of self. i have also shown that this dehumanization has a long history in our societies going back to the theory of alienation. dehumanization is not stress or unhappiness it is mental illness.

Timebandit wrote:

epaulo13 wrote:

tl:dr If everything is mental illness, then nothing is.

..do you think this is what i am implying timebandit? that everything is mental illness?

I think that it blurs the line and lessens the importance of treating clinical mental illnesses. Being subjected to stress can exacerbate some mental illness, but it doesn't necessarily rise to the clinical level. You can be unhappy or stressed out, but that's not the same as mental illness.

..txs timebandit. i don't believe this is what i am doing but i recognize that this is not the proper thread to be expanding on it. i've made my points and repeating them won't be of help so i'll leave it at that.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
You can be unhappy or stressed out, but that's not the same as mental illness.

I think that a lot of things that used to be considered a normal part of life have been medicalized.

It's why we have "therapy animals".  They're not just for people in palliative care, or the pediatric oncology ward -- now they're necessary for people with anxiety to be able to go to the mall.

Perfect, I'm taking Leonardo* to the grocery store on Saturday. He'll be my antidote to sticker shock when I pay the bill. ;)

*small, fluffy black cat I adopted last year.

Unionist

Timebandit wrote:

Perfect, I'm taking Leonardo* to the grocery store on Saturday. He'll be my antidote to sticker shock when I pay the bill. ;)

*small, fluffy black cat I adopted last year.

 

Photo please!!!

WWWTT

Misfit wrote:

Labelling any idology a mental illness is very dangerous. It can be used by governments to institutionalize dissidents and people opposed to their rule of law for so-called medical grounds.

 

WOW!

First off, if the followers of an ideology believe that they have more rights and/or others have less rights, they have a problem with perception of reality! How’s is that not a mental health issue?

Heres an example. The person next door is a nice person, minds there own business and is absolutely no threat to my well being. But for some reason I feel that they are different, and that this difference threatens my well being so I kill them. Does this mean I have a perfectly clear perception of reality? No of course not. If I kill someone because I feel they are a threat, and they are not (they did absolutely nothing to threaten my well being) then I have a serious problem with perception of reality. 

Now if a government labels a group of people’s that are absolutely no threat to anyone else, and takes away their rights, then the government and or the people supporting or in the government making such a decision has a problem with perception. Therefore this is a mental health issue that needs attention. 

 

Unionist

WWTTT:

Someone who amasses billions of dollars, exploiting the labour and resources of others, and lives a life of obscene luxury, while countless millions live in poverty... and believes that this is the natural order of society - is that person mentally ill?

Just trying to understand your viewpoint.

WWWTT

epaulo13 wrote:

..white nationalism isn't a mental illness it is a structure

No it’s not, it’s a mental illness!

or more correct, the followers of white nationalism are mentally ill and in need of attention  

Anyone who thinks they’re superior to anyone is in need of mental health attention  

 

WWWTT

Unionist wrote:

WWTTT:

Someone who amasses billions of dollars, exploiting the labour and resources of others, and lives a life of obscene luxury, while countless millions live in poverty... and believes that this is the natural order of society - is that person mentally ill?

Just trying to understand your viewpoint.

A little of topic, so somewhat of a straw man. But of course! That’s a fucking hoarder you’re describing to a T! That’s someone that feels that they are entitled to a better life than other people and that those other people don’t deserve the same life that they have. 

How is that not mental illness?

WWWTT

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

 

There is no indication in this case that the perpetrator was ill.

Before or after he killed 50 and injured more people who were no threat to himself?

lagatta4

Timebandit, Unionist beat me to that. Livia - sleek but very soft-furred wee black cat - welcomes Leonardo into the fold.

Buonasera, Leonardo!

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

WWWTT wrote:

epaulo13 wrote:

..white nationalism isn't a mental illness it is a structure

No it’s not, it’s a mental illness!

or more correct, the followers of white nationalism are mentally ill and in need of attention  

Anyone who thinks they’re superior to anyone is in need of mental health attention  

 

..that is exactly what i said in my post.

WWWTT

@epaulo

ya sorry I went back to your comment and you articulated a little deeper with a few examples. 

I would add that this mental illness is far more widespread than what some people believe. And unfortunately it’s accepted as the norm by far far too many people 

JKR

WWWTT wrote:
Sean in Ottawa wrote:

There is no indication in this case that the perpetrator was ill.

Before or after he killed 50 and injured more people who were no threat to himself?

I think the perpetrator would say that Muslims are a grave threat to his white nation. The perpetrator probably now sees himself as being a hero for defending his nation/race. I don't think the mental health system should be responsible for political reeducation.

Sean in Ottawa

Unionist wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Sorry Sean but I find the idea that we need better mental health services a tangent that does not belong in the context of a mass murderer who clearly had a political agenda and belonged to a terrorist group. I don't think you mean it as one but it looks like a red herring to deflect from the real debate about white supremacy in ex-British settler states.

I don't think Sean means it as a red herring. But that just shows how insidious this diversionary crap is. I haven't heard too many rants about the need to improve mental health services in Afghanistan or Syria or Iraq or Palestine in order to "save lives". Just kill the terrorist scumbags. But when it comes to white Western males - they must be sick.

I love it how people discuss what a person means while completely ignoring what they actually say.

I am not speaking about one white male killer. Can we just agree about that since we are talking about what I meant?

I was speaking in response to general statements about violence from WWWTT. The examples I was thinking of are the long tran of mentally ill people who converted to violent Islamic terror who had no history of being either Islamic or religious. One included the guy who shot up Parliament Hill.

As that time the NDP was very vocal about the fact that mental health services might be able to identify some of these peole, even intervene.

I am not speaking form the sole example of this case in New Zealand and have already stated that this may be one of those cases where nothign could have prevented it. the point is that mental health services have identified people capable of this.

Pondering

WWWTT wrote:

@epaulo

ya sorry I went back to your comment and you articulated a little deeper with a few examples. 

I would add that this mental illness is far more widespread than what some people believe. And unfortunately it’s accepted as the norm by far far too many people 

It depends on how you define mental illness. I grant you the definition is extremely loose. I wish the perpetrators of the Holocaust were mentally ill because then we could pretend it was unnatural behavor for humans. 

White nationalism is not a mental illness it is a fear response to the knowledge that by 2050 (I think) whites will be a minority in the US and probably in Canada as well.  I read the 2050 thing in the 90s so it may be 2040 or 2060 but it is coming. 

WWWTT

JKR wrote:

WWWTT wrote:
Sean in Ottawa wrote:

There is no indication in this case that the perpetrator was ill.

Before or after he killed 50 and injured more people who were no threat to himself?

I think the perpetrator would say that Muslims are a grave threat to his white nation. The perpetrator probably now sees himself as being a hero for defending his nation/race. I don't think the mental health system should be responsible for political reeducation.

When did “Muslim” become politics???

Fear of nothing is created by politicians who have mental health issues. Did you think that I was implying that only those who actually commit a serious crime need medical attention? Oh no not at all!

NDPP

The Permanence of White Supremacy

https://blackagendareport.com/freedom-rider-permanence-white-supremacy

"Discussions about white supremacy should amount to more than kumbaya moments of interpersonal harmony or hand-wringing when lone gunmen go on the periodic racist rampage. Self-identified white people have always posed dangers to every other group. White supremacy is the guiding force behind many atrocities committed around the world.

The individuals who carry out these acts usually elicit greater scorn than the presidents and prime ministers who do the same..."

 

Kill one man, you're a murderer - Kill 50 you're a monster - Kill one million, you get a hug...

https://twitter.com/Bill_Owen/status/1108436120889634816

NDPP

'Our soldiers are heroes' - Nycole Turmel, NDP

 

Libyan Children Killed in NATO Bombing

https://youtu.be/67VNpsbw4hQ

 

F-35 Maker Hires Ex-General Who Led NATO Libya Mission

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/f-35-maker-hires-ex-general-who-led-nat...

"Charles Bouchard accepts job with Lockheed Martin. Bouchard was given the meritorious service cross, a recognition for an outstanding professional military activity 'that brings considerable benefit or great honour to the Canadian Forces..."

 

Justin Trudeau Has Israel's Back

https://youtu.be/OTvO_SeTvrU

People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...

JKR

WWWTT wrote:

JKR wrote:

WWWTT wrote:
Sean in Ottawa wrote:

There is no indication in this case that the perpetrator was ill.

Before or after he killed 50 and injured more people who were no threat to himself?

I think the perpetrator would say that Muslims are a grave threat to his white nation. The perpetrator probably now sees himself as being a hero for defending his nation/race. I don't think the mental health system should be responsible for political reeducation.

When did “Muslim” become politics???

Fear of nothing is created by politicians who have mental health issues. Did you think that I was implying that only those who actually commit a serious crime need medical attention? Oh no not at all!

What mental health issues do you think these politicians have?

NorthReport
epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..i have slept on it and believe in my initial response i was over thinking it in that i couldn't respond in this thread. sorry.

..the main thrust in my talking about mental illness in the context of this thread i have focused on dehumanization of self. i have also shown that this dehumanization has a long history in our societies going back to the theory of alienation. dehumanization is not stress or unhappiness it is mental illness.

Timebandit wrote:

epaulo13 wrote:

tl:dr If everything is mental illness, then nothing is.

..do you think this is what i am implying timebandit? that everything is mental illness?

I think that it blurs the line and lessens the importance of treating clinical mental illnesses. Being subjected to stress can exacerbate some mental illness, but it doesn't necessarily rise to the clinical level. You can be unhappy or stressed out, but that's not the same as mental illness.

..txs timebandit. i don't believe this is what i am doing but i recognize that this is not the proper thread to be expanding on it. i've made my points and repeating them won't be of help so i'll leave it at that.