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Sean in Ottawa

jatt_1947 wrote:

 

Just a differing term for what colonial means I guess. :shrug:

What you are doing is saying that European colonialism which is an extremely serious issue for the world is no different and should be treated no differently than movements of people from hundreds of years before them and the resulting conversions of faith among Indigenous peoples.

You posted a link to an article that is only about anti-colonial efforts to change names of European colonialism and claim it gives justification for erasing names that have stood for many more centuries.

More to the point the Muslim people of India are Indian - they are indigenous to the area and did not stop being so when converted nearly one thousand years ago. White settlers are not on the same level and the moves to remove the names left by white settlers that have no relationship to the people living there are not the same thing no matter how many times you want to shrug. There are religious minorities in India who are just as legitimately Indian as any others who live there and that is a distinction that sets the European settlers from the last 250 years apart from the Muslim conversions from nearly a htousand years ago.

The Muslim people of India is not small. 11% of the world's Muslims live there. Today. They are not settlers. Islam arrived in India due to the Trukic invasions but the present muslim population of India are not all their descendants as you pretend by your comparisons. The names that are being erased are not all imported Turkic cultural products but have developed in India over centuries. India is not the one-religion thing that the BJP is trying to sell.

You are shrugging to advocate genocide. Just becuase it is not white people involved does not make it better. You are making the same argument people in the former Yugoslavia used to attack people in Kosovo except you are trying to merge it into legitimate resistance to modern European colonialism.

The Muslim names you are advocateing being erased are from people who have contributed greatly to India and who were very much invovled in the efforts to secure independence.

Sean in Ottawa

By the way - the pictures of atrocities are not just one sided. Atrocities on the Hidu side against Muslims have also been chronicled.

No question this animosity was fed by the British and the conflict in large part due to their design (not just incompetence).

But to come here and suggest that it is a one-sided thing is not honest either.

Let's also place this in a modern context related to genocide and steps towards near genocide against Muslims:

Kosovo, China, Myanmar, Former Soviet Union... India is on a road of extremism that should not be blessed on this site or anywhere.

Share your opinion as you like - but others may want to add the other side.

I am not anti-Indian at all. But I am not in favour of white-washing oppression. I also do not think the issue of European imperialism and its effects (that I can argue include the present climate crisis) should be merged with other conflicts to magnify those or dimish European imperialism in terms of global effects.

jatt_1947 jatt_1947's picture

Just let us genocide you brown man.

jatt_1947 jatt_1947's picture

Play victim elsewhere white man.

Sean in Ottawa

You are out of control.

Like I said in my message to you - I do not want any more private messages from you.

Please delete these annoying images that people have to scroll past.

You are talking about "fighting back" at the fact that a population is high. You are clearly advocating genocide.

Your comments about me are way over the line.

I am aware of Muslim attrocities against Hindus. I know it is not one-sided.

At the same time you can remove the entirely gratutitous revolting images you put up. they serve no purpose other than a warning about how off the rails you would get.

Sean in Ottawa

Also explain this message you sent me today:

"Worry about your own safety, won't say anything more."

What kind of garbage is this? You trying to threaten me?

jatt_1947 jatt_1947's picture

Point made. 

--

The safety comment is a misnomer, your is used in a collective fashion. Stop trying to play victim, Nazi.

Sean in Ottawa

Stop this now. You are not helping yourself. You are out of control. Questionning the BJP is not just about colonialism and white supremacy and it is also not about taking sides in the larger Hindu-Muslim battle.

I am tired of people that seek to polarize every discussion so that they force their own extreme positions. Just stop.

And I asked you to stop sending me messages. You are blocked.

jatt_1947 jatt_1947's picture

You only find offense at people seeking to reclaim thier own sacred geographic heritage because you come from a people who took it away from others. You cannot empathize with something that you have stolen from others.

You are crazy and out of control. Have a good day,

Sean in Ottawa

jatt_1947 wrote:

Why aren't streets in Israel named after Hitler - Sean in Ottawa 2019

If this place had an moderation this type of shit would not be allowed.

Sean in Ottawa

jatt_1947 wrote:

You only find offense at people seeking to reclaim thier own sacred geographic heritage because you come from a people who took it away from others. You cannot empathize with something that you have stolen from others.

You are crazy and out of control. Have a good day,

People claiming sacred geographical heritage reaching back 800 years is the cause of genocide when that land is populated by poeple they seek to remove.

josh

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Also explain this message you sent me today:

"Worry about your own safety, won't say anything more."

What kind of garbage is this? You trying to threaten me?

 

Wow.  This guy needs to be banned, and even reported. 

jatt_1947 jatt_1947's picture
jatt_1947 jatt_1947's picture
jatt_1947 jatt_1947's picture

"The unconquered heathen of Hindustan the last of that old and brilliant Indo-European heathenism, ground to dust or placed in museum closets. A rival to all that the counter-religions of Abrahamism represent in essence. Its very presence a negation of the narratives of Abrahamism"

Image result for shri ram chandra

Sat Sri Akaal.

jatt_1947 jatt_1947's picture

The Anti-Sikh, Pro-Islam Bigotry of the BBC

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/blogs/cogito-ergo-sum/the-anti-sikh-...

Enough. The Sikhs will not take it.

 

 

Doesn't let me change size of images.

JKR

Sri Ramakrishna Paramahansa seemed to believe that Hindus, Muslims, and, Christians, could live together in peace with mutual respect. I see no reason to disagree with him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramakrishna

Quote:

Ramakrishna's religious practice and worldview, contained elements of BhaktiTantra and Vedanta. Ramakrishna emphasised God-realisation, stating that "To realize God is the one goal in life." Ramakrishna found that Hinduism, Christianity and Islam all move towards the same God or divine, though using different ways: "So many religions, so many paths to reach one and the same goal," namely to experience God or Divine. Ramakrishna further said, "All scriptures - the Vedas, the Puranas, the Tantras - seek Him alone and no one else." The Vedic phrase "Truth is one; only It is called by different names,"became a stock phrase to express Ramakrishna's inclusivism.

jatt_1947 jatt_1947's picture

Lol

 

JKR

I think you make a good case for the need for India to protect and promote Hinduism. The recent successes of Hindu nationalism obviously have their roots in history. I was unaware of the severity of the atrocities perpetrated upon Hindus in the past. I think India should protect and promote Hinduism but still not persecute other religions. In general I think India is heading in the right direction. I think India's greatest need is to reduce poverty. I also think Hinduism has been one of the greatest gifts to our world. I think most Indians understand that they have many challenges to overcome, like it's currently dysfunctional caste system, and Indians are more than capable of sorting out their challenges without interference from abroad.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Here is an Indian voice that I listen to carefully.

https://www.democracynow.org/2019/5/13/arundhati_roy_on_the_indian_election

 

jatt_1947 jatt_1947's picture

Kirpan. 

ਸਿਖ ਮਤ ਵਿਚ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਤੱਖ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਹੈ ਅਥਵਾ ਗੁਰਾਂ ਸੰਤਾਂ ਦਾ ਹੈ । ਤਥਾ ਹੀ ਭਗਵਤੀ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਤੱਖ ਧੇਇ ਸਰੂਪ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਆਦਿਕ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਅਸਤ੍ਰਾਂ ਦਾ ਦਰਸ਼ਨ ਹੈ ।
In Sikhism, to view the [sargun] form of Akal Purkh you can look towards Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as well as Saints. Like this to the [sargun] form of Bhagvati [Devi/Chandi] for one to view weapons [shastar and astar].

josh
voice of the damned

jatt_1947 wrote:

Lol. India needs Western systems like democracy and Roy who is a supporter of christian naxals who kidnap children to convert them is an important voice. 

 

Aren't the Naxalites Maoists? If so, are you saying that they're closet Christians? Or is this some sort of spenglerian "Christianity is the grandmother of bolshevism" thing?

Sean in Ottawa

JKR wrote:

I think you make a good case for the need for India to protect and promote Hinduism. The recent successes of Hindu nationalism obviously have their roots in history. I was unaware of the severity of the atrocities perpetrated upon Hindus in the past. I think India should protect and promote Hinduism but still not persecute other religions. In general I think India is heading in the right direction. I think India's greatest need is to reduce poverty. I also think Hinduism has been one of the greatest gifts to our world. I think most Indians understand that they have many challenges to overcome, like it's currently dysfunctional caste system, and Indians are more than capable of sorting out their challenges without interference from abroad.

Don't be misled by this person that this is one-sided.

Google the issue of restoration of Temples over sites of mosques in India - some of these mosques are on sites of temples destroyed up to 1000 years ago and extrmists are arguing to destroy centuries old mosques to restore things that were gone longer ago. Don't think that this is a one-sided conflict where Hindus are all innocent.

You can read this -- among many, many sources that discuss how extremism exists on both sides.

https://solidarity-us.org/atc/98/p1268/

You can look up the start of the BJP movement and learn about the riots, destruction and deaths when the current Indian PM was in power in Gujarat.

Yes Hindus have suffered but despite the gruesome images this person posts they have given as well as taken violence.

This site was not meant to take sides as this person is demanding.

It is not imperialist and discriminatory (as he suggests) to refuse to take sides.

His comments are disgusting -- like this as well designed for obvious purpose:

"Solution to India's problems is the Kirpan."

He is proving that there is

NO MODERATION ON THIS SITE ANY MORE.

This has been reported but the site is doing nothing.

Sean in Ottawa

This thread is an illustration of what many here oppose:

people post things on social media out of context and rile people up to their side. Other people read but do no reasearch and participate in support. this is how we got Trump and how we continue to get fake news.

People do your research and try to know when you are seeing only one side and being manipulated.

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

jatt_1947 wrote:

Hindu genocide is ok because Hindus are heathen savages dude.


What the hell are you talking about?  There has never been any possibility that Hindus would be victims of genocides, and it's not "anti-colonialism" to insist that Hindus should have supremacy over every other indigenous group and every other faith tradition in India.

Hindus don't have to make everybody else in India live at their mercy to be safe.  And there was no justification for the anti-Muslim and general anti non-Hindu rage that Modi has stoked.  

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

jatt_1947 wrote:

You only find offense at people seeking to reclaim thier own sacred geographic heritage because you come from a people who took it away from others. You cannot empathize with something that you have stolen from others.

You are crazy and out of control. Have a good day,

It's not as though the ONLY way Hindus can do such "reclamation" is for punitive measures to be taken against Indian Muslims.  And the laws regarding various houses of worship and the different treatment they received were passed by governments led by Hindus, so why are you acting as though non-Hindus are to blame for them?

If nothing else, there was no good reason for Modi to declare Muslims collectively responsible for the burning of that rail car before any investigation of the fire's cause was carried out-and then to post guards around the burned out train car to prevent investigators from approaching it until six months after the fire, allowing the monsoons to wash away most of the evidence.   The only conclusion you can draw from that is that Modi had something to hide in that event.

Also, what happened with the mosques happened 1,000 years ago.  How are the Indian Muslims of 2019 to blame for that?

 

Sean in Ottawa

Another point made by the poster is that Hindu places of worship can be disposed of - menaing they do not need to be reclaimed from hundreds of years ago. This is not restoration. It is ethnic and religious cleansing.

jatt_1947 jatt_1947's picture

The one who bears oppression meekly is a greater sinner than the Tyrant. - Guru Gobind Singh

 

jatt_1947 jatt_1947's picture

:ok:

Sean in Ottawa

jatt_1947 wrote:

Yes, the Kirpan is disgusting, partition and general ethnic cleansing of Hindus is not genocide, and self-defence is a sin.

 

 

Stop lying.

I said your comment was disgusting. I have no problem with the Kirpan which is not a weapon. Your suggestion that it be used against enemies in a wider conflict between religions is disgusting as is your attempt at using lies and volume to bully the way of one side of a conflict.

No religious Sikh I have ever met would ever consent to the use of Kirpan even suggested rhetorically as a weapon or threat in the way you presented it. It is not a weapon of war for group struggle as you suggest. It is only symbolic and only allowed to be used for defence of the person or another person in need. Your aggression here in the context you raised it was disgusting.

The Kirpan is not. Hindus are not. Self defense is not.

Trying to whip up support for religious cleansing and genocide using centries old grievances is.

You are -- by your personal choices and words and nothing to do with any religion or ethnicity you may or may not be part of.

Sean in Ottawa

jatt_1947 wrote:

Tfw when a bunch of white boys post some communist, beef eating, upper caste Brahmin from Bengal as an authority on Vedic Dharma. :rollseyes:

xD :ok:

Ideas are not always ranked by colour. I do not need extra pigmentation in my skin to oppose the Islamaphobia you have tried to whip up here or to be disgusted by your personal attacks and lies.

I picked a source that was anti-imperialist to point out that you trying to hide a campaign in support of ethnic and religious cleansing, destruction of architectural sites, and murder in India behind anti-imperialism should not have success here.

I have no problem with any comments you want to make on European Imperialism. It is your support for a campaign of terror against many people living in India that I take issue with. It is your deceptions here where you post examples of Mosques on sites of Temples without the context of time suggesting this was something current when some of this goes back 1000 years. No Muslim in India today has to receive your anger for what happened then no matter how wrong it was. What is current is what you are a part of and what you are advocating here.

Again if there were any moderation here this thread would be closed. The moderators may be okay with the thread but others can still object to it unless they want to ban us.

You have no leg to stand on to attack me. My words have been more restrained than yours through this thread. You have broken every principle this site stands for. This is a site of peace not revenge for old religious battles. Here most people do not give a dman about any religion becuase it inspires the kind of hate you spew. They can throw me off this site if they like but you are the kind of person that should be stood up to.

Yes, due to imperialism and the fact that you have cloaked this entirely and intentionally in race (rather than religion which is the real content behind your attacks) in order to silence people -- you got a free pass. These free passes all should have been used up by now due to the disgusting, at times threatening, offensive and personal attacks you waged here.

This place is one that is not supposed to condone Islamaphobia just as it is not supposed to condone hatred to Hindus or any others.

I have no idea why Meg will not do anything but that is a problem we have here now.

Sean in Ottawa

By the way I would not criticize Meg if I had not long ago sent a message alerting her to what is going on in this thread. We are supposed to raise issues with moderators. I did not even get the courtesy of a reply and you know what - even if I am wrong somehow this is serious enough that one was deserved.

I am sympathetic to over-worked moderators but is there anything else on this site at this time that is more serious than what is going on here? Please tell me. This and the alert to moderator is not something that came up a day ago either. My message was sent on October 6th. Two weeks ago. Where the hell is moderation????? It is not as if I often ask a moderator becuase I am used to getting no answer but this should have been the exception. You want to know whay people blow up and take it in their own hands? Becuase you are on your own when this site is being abused.

So hey Meg -- fucking ban one of us. Choose. This is not getting better becuase I will speak out against people condoning violence and religious and ethnic cleansing until you shut me up.

Sean in Ottawa

By the way Jatt says this is about :

"Some random riot by Hindus is considered the same level as 1000 years of Jihad with millions of casualties."

This is a lie. The atrocities are on both sides and this has been going on a long time.

He is right that there is no Muslim person here to provide the other side but the truth has universal value.

Check yourself this history. Neither side can pretend to be innocent or the only victim. The people who are perpetuating it are the ones in the wrong and Jatt is one of them. Google what is going on there. Pick multiple sources. they are not all "communist" as that pissed him off, or all imperialist, they come with facts and pictures, people dying. Here is a wiki - no not saying it is an authority but it has many references at the end and you can look up more:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence_against_Muslims_in_India

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_violence_in_India

-- you can scroll to the anti Hidu violence in the above link. I am not saying this is one-sided.

But what is happening now is extremely serious.

 

  • The 2008 Human Rights Watch report notes: India claims an abiding commitment to human rights, but its record is marred by continuing violations by security forces in counterinsurgency operations and by government failure to rigorously implement laws and policies to protect marginalised communities. A vibrant media and civil society continue to press for improvements, but without tangible signs of success in 2007.[7]
  • The 2007 Amnesty International report listed several issues concern in India and noted Justice and rehabilitation continued to evade most victims of the 2002 Gujarat communal violence.[293]
  • In a 2018 report, United Nations Human Rights office expressed concerns over attacks directed at minorities and Dalits in India. The statement came in an annual report to the United Nations Human Rights Council’s March 2018 session where Zeid Ra’ad al-Hussein said,
  • "In India, I am increasingly disturbed by discrimination and violence directed at minorities, including Dalits and other scheduled castes, and religious minorities such as Muslims. In some cases this injustice appears actively endorsed by local or religious officials. I am concerned that criticism of government policies is frequently met by claims that it constitutes sedition or a threat to national security. I am deeply concerned by efforts to limit critical voices through the cancellation or suspension of registration of thousands of NGOs, including groups advocating for human rights and even public health groups."[301]

Sean in Ottawa

jatt_1947 wrote:

 

 

Not okay here ever before. This place used to represent values other than this.

Meg??????????????????????????

jatt_1947 jatt_1947's picture

Lols.

jatt_1947 jatt_1947's picture

Irrelevant.

Sean in Ottawa

jatt_1947 wrote:

https://www.dailyo.in/politics/the-missing-hindus-in-south-asia-and-a-conspiracy-of-silence/story/1/1149.html
 

"If you have a general ‘anti-authority’ outlook, all the state has to do to ‘co-opt’ you is convince you to accept its rank ordering of enemies. It has significant resources to do this." 

"However, the ‘anti-authority’ outlook itself is maintained by the state. The system here is { anti-authority ideologies + a rank ordering of enemies }, which creates a obfuscatory mechanism through which the state can create assets who don’t think of themselves as assets." 

 

You live in this fantasy world where everything is evil but your particular progressive ideology is not.

A shining beacon to the world from which everything must be judged, everything must conform and everything must lead to.

You are a christian in other words.

Stop worrying about what I am - you have no clue.

As for religion I think it is a bad guess to think anyone here is of a religion. I suspect most people here do not like religions - particularly those that say they are for peace but make exceptions for those they disagree with. Meaning basically all of them.

Sean in Ottawa

And no you are incorrect -- responding to atrocities from centuries ago or even now with an atrocity is still an atrocity.

You promoting justification for atrocities is offensive and this is why I say that if there were any moderation here at all this would not be tolerated.

jatt_1947 jatt_1947's picture

When struck with a brick respond with a Boulder - Guru Gobind Singh

jatt_1947 jatt_1947's picture

Gau & Gareeb have Khalsa.

Sean in Ottawa

jatt_1947 wrote:

In Multan, when the Muslims would complain about the Azaan being banned the Singhs would respond among the rejoice of Hindus we have not done even 1/4 of what you have done to us.

The fact that a significant portion of Hindus are still willing to forgive and forget everything, when it is blatantly obvious that Christians & Muslims have always been the aggressors should highlight the difference between the ideologes; and how monstrous you are for supporting the agressors.

In a case of justice, feigning neutrality and punishing those defending themselves is an evil act.
You will defend your fellow monotheists anyway..

 

O well, the poor and oppressed of the world have the Khalsa.

put me down as a no-theist of any kind - thanks

and stop making assumptions

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

1) I'm fine with the kirpan and with "self-defense".  What Modi does is NOT self-defense.  It is neither self-defense to try to undo the existence of Pakistan while, at the same time, trying to force Indian Muslims to either accept a status of official inferiority or to go into exile.  Muslims have just as much right to remain where they are in India and Pakistan as anyone else there.

2) Muslims in India and Pakistan are not "Turks"-they are just as legitimately indigenous residents of India as anyone else.  There is no reason to try to abolish Islam in the Subcontinent and it wouldn't be possible to do so if it was.  Islam is simply a set of religions; it is not "the enemy" and it is not an illegitimate presence in India.

3) Nobody on this board is anti-Sikh-if you've somehow not noticed, most people on this board support a political party led by an observant Sikh-and the Sikhs in India are not in any way benefiting from with Modi is doing-Modi's Hindu-supremacism will inevitably lead to him treating Sikhs as he treats Muslims, and that may be happening already.

4) Yes, western democracy has limitations and contradictions.  But it's not as though the only way to have a non-Western, non-"Judeo-Christian" society is to have it run as a dictatorship.  To argue that it is is to argue that people of non-European cultures are somehow ethnically or racially incapable of governing themselves, which would be a disgustinging bigoted argument.

 

jatt_1947 jatt_1947's picture

India has had self-governance from the beginning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandala#Political_meaning
--
A lot of Muslim tribes do believe they are non-Indic ie Baloch say they're from Aleppo & Pathans say Bene Israel.

voice of the damned

Jatt wrote:

Turk is anyway a colloquial term and if our Guru uses it, it is correct.

Sorta like in Alberta in the early 80s, we used to say anyone from the general vicinity of the Indian subcontient(Hindus, Sikhs, whatever) was from "Pakistan".

Hey, if Bob the rig-worker down the road used it, it must have been correct! 

 

jatt_1947 jatt_1947's picture

voice of the damned wrote:

Jatt wrote:

Turk is anyway a colloquial term and if our Guru uses it, it is correct.

Sorta like in Alberta in the early 80s, we used to say anyone from the general vicinity of the Indian subcontient(Hindus, Sikhs, whatever) was from "Pakistan".

Hey, if Bob the rig-worker down the road used it, it must have been correct! 

 

Don't insult the Guru. You're worse than Bob atleast he's honest about his racism.
BJP is wrong, Congress is the party of Sikh & Sadhu genocide. :shrug:

The modern west/left’s entire anti-islamophobic nonsense is an attempt to pass the white guilt for colonialism and the war on terror onto Hindus.

NorthReport
NorthReport

- Aug 18

Indians Abroad for Pluralist India holds rally for Kashmir in Surrey

https://www.straight.com/news/1286701/indians-abroad-pluralist-india-holds-rally-kashmir-surrey

NorthReport
jatt_1947 jatt_1947's picture

http://indiafacts.org/dahi-handi-debacle-edict-thessalonica-attack-hindu-traditions/

Once Hindus are in the same position as Yazidis they'll find sympathy on here.

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