Kremlingate part 2

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NDPP

Report Says Russia-gaters Should Go Quietly in the Night

https://consortiumnews.com/2018/10/20/report-says-russia-gaters-should-g...

"After more than two years of mania about Russia stealing the 2016 election for Trump and demonization [continuing] of anyone who  questioned it, an embarrassing end may soon be near for the Russiagaters. The Russiagaters were wrong and they have done tremendous damage..."

 

Audio: Shady Claims by NYT on Russia-gate

https://consortiumnews.com/2018/10/18/audio-shady-claims-by-nyt-on-russi...

"Listen to Peter B delve deep into the deception of Russiagate with Gareth Porter."

bekayne

NDPP wrote:

Report Says Russia-gaters Should Go Quietly in the Night

 

Did Caitlin Johnstone actually read the Politico article?

WWWTT

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Russiagate was not bullshit. Why should we take one false extreme over the other in this story?

We can believe both that the Russians were interfering to create instability AND that the US is a global threat to peace AND that the US is the greatest threat to Canada. Why must we assume either side is innocent?

I do not think that Russians intended to help Trump for his sake. Their interest in him was that he is a force of instability - once they realized this he became an objective of their campaign.

This is not a binary issue: the US is terrible. That the Russians are doing something terrible themselves does not change that. It is not even about which is worse -- why does it matter?

Why does it matter which side the Russians were interfering to help? There are well supported claims that it was all sides -- they were promoting division until they realized just how awful he could be and that he could get elected. The fact that the US has a record of being the state with the greatest level of interference outside since the colonial powers occupied countries does not excuse Russia's tactics. Even the fact that Russia may have done this due to previous aggression, does not make what Russia did okay. (Russia was turned into a hostile country when it could have turned the other way by the actions of the US, Europe and NATO -- they could have been welcomed when they were trying to engage instead of being attacked and threatened.)

I know this. But it does not make them not a threat now or excuse what they have done.

The fact that the greatest threat of election interference, and the greatest examples of it come from within, does not make their efforts okay.

I don't really give much of a crap about the US now since I do not consider their electoral process as worth recognition or redeemable, but Canada is also vulnerable. It has to be concerned about threats from within in terms of interference, it has to be concerned about distortions of the process through financing, and it has to be concerned about interference from outside.

Pretending the Russians did not interfere in elections is not good for Canada, just becuase the Russians are not the greatest threat from outside to Canada (that threat comes from the US). The experience with how the Russians did it exposes vulnerabilities. The motive of the Russians is actually less of a threat to Canada than the one from the US. They were seeking advantage from discord. Certainly the Russians could be a threat to Canada in the next election -- even if it is a much smaller threat than that coming from the US.

The threat from the US is also different: The Russians wanted advatnage by creating trouble. The US will likely use some of the same techniques to change the result in order to make the Canadian government more to its liking. What the Russians did may have been dirty but the technique they used against the US, if employed by US actors against Canada, threaten Canada's independence (whatever is left of it).

Pretending this did not happen is not going to help this. Taking sides is not either -- the techniques were cheap and can be used not just by a country whose leadership is hostile, but by any group within the country or outside.

Canada should be terrified about what the US right wing learned about this and how they might employ what they learned against us. So pretending that it was all bullshit is a very bad idea. Don't even think that the Russians invented this -- the US used this type of tacic before, even if they were offended that it was used against them later. The US has more money, a greater interest, and more groups independent of their government capable of doing this to Canada. Plus Canada is an easier target becuase we are a smaller market.

 

 

wasnt the first time a foreign country used divisive politics against the US

Britain did it by supporting the southern states in the American civil war over 150 years ago. 

What I find funny about your comment is that you feel Russia is in the wrong for using divisive politics for tripping up the US

Sean in Ottawa

WWWTT wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Russiagate was not bullshit. Why should we take one false extreme over the other in this story?

We can believe both that the Russians were interfering to create instability AND that the US is a global threat to peace AND that the US is the greatest threat to Canada. Why must we assume either side is innocent?

I do not think that Russians intended to help Trump for his sake. Their interest in him was that he is a force of instability - once they realized this he became an objective of their campaign.

This is not a binary issue: the US is terrible. That the Russians are doing something terrible themselves does not change that. It is not even about which is worse -- why does it matter?

Why does it matter which side the Russians were interfering to help? There are well supported claims that it was all sides -- they were promoting division until they realized just how awful he could be and that he could get elected. The fact that the US has a record of being the state with the greatest level of interference outside since the colonial powers occupied countries does not excuse Russia's tactics. Even the fact that Russia may have done this due to previous aggression, does not make what Russia did okay. (Russia was turned into a hostile country when it could have turned the other way by the actions of the US, Europe and NATO -- they could have been welcomed when they were trying to engage instead of being attacked and threatened.)

I know this. But it does not make them not a threat now or excuse what they have done.

The fact that the greatest threat of election interference, and the greatest examples of it come from within, does not make their efforts okay.

I don't really give much of a crap about the US now since I do not consider their electoral process as worth recognition or redeemable, but Canada is also vulnerable. It has to be concerned about threats from within in terms of interference, it has to be concerned about distortions of the process through financing, and it has to be concerned about interference from outside.

Pretending the Russians did not interfere in elections is not good for Canada, just becuase the Russians are not the greatest threat from outside to Canada (that threat comes from the US). The experience with how the Russians did it exposes vulnerabilities. The motive of the Russians is actually less of a threat to Canada than the one from the US. They were seeking advantage from discord. Certainly the Russians could be a threat to Canada in the next election -- even if it is a much smaller threat than that coming from the US.

The threat from the US is also different: The Russians wanted advatnage by creating trouble. The US will likely use some of the same techniques to change the result in order to make the Canadian government more to its liking. What the Russians did may have been dirty but the technique they used against the US, if employed by US actors against Canada, threaten Canada's independence (whatever is left of it).

Pretending this did not happen is not going to help this. Taking sides is not either -- the techniques were cheap and can be used not just by a country whose leadership is hostile, but by any group within the country or outside.

Canada should be terrified about what the US right wing learned about this and how they might employ what they learned against us. So pretending that it was all bullshit is a very bad idea. Don't even think that the Russians invented this -- the US used this type of tacic before, even if they were offended that it was used against them later. The US has more money, a greater interest, and more groups independent of their government capable of doing this to Canada. Plus Canada is an easier target becuase we are a smaller market.

 

 

wasnt the first time a foreign country used divisive politics against the US

Britain did it by supporting the southern states in the American civil war over 150 years ago. 

What I find funny about your comment is that you feel Russia is in the wrong for using divisive politics for tripping up the US

Glad you could find something funny.

I am not just one of those who thinks two wrongs make a right. I actually think you cannot call something as wrong in one context and not another. I find it strange that you don't have a problem with a campaign of fraud and deception in order to dupe voters of another country as wrong.

It is equally wrong whether the US or Russia do it and equally wrong if it is done to a country that has a history of being wrong. The alternative to that position is hypocrisy.

Pogo Pogo's picture

I am leaning to a grand bargain between Trump and his swampdwellers, Israel, Saudi Arabia/UAE and Russia. Not as worried about what this is doing to the US, rather than nefarious plans for the Middle East.  The US will work its way through this mess and find some ugly center/right equilibrium again.  I just don't know what kind of shit is going to go down in the Middle East assuming Yemen is just the first step.

NDPP

The Jimmy Dore Show

https://youtu.be/9_vpC9yFMVE

"Mueller Report: 'Prepare for disappointment' says POLITICO."

NDPP

Who's Really 'Undermining' American Democracy? (and vid)

https://www.thenation.com/article/whos-really-undermining-american-democ...

"Summarizing one of the themes in his new book, 'War With Russia? From Putin and Ukraine To Trump and Russiagate,' Stephen F Cohen, professor emeritus of Russian studies and politics at NYU and Princeton, argues that Russiagate allegations of Kremlin attempts to 'undermine American democracy' may themselves erode confidence in these institutions."

What 'American democracy?'

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