KremlinGate

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WWWTT

Hi MM

Ok I'm going to pick up on your summary here:

What we see is that all the actions in the indictment were done by a single group. That group was sophisticated enough that it was almost certainly a state actor. The GRU is named, as are specific individuals in that organization. This seems to be based on having compromised the computers used by at least some of these individuals.

Unless the whole indictment is a fabric of lies, which I consider quite unlikely, there are logs and other records which can back up all the allegations, due to the very nature of these allegations. These can't just be guesses, they must be either lies or facts. I consider it overwhelmingly likely that they are facts, but that's just my opinion.

So this all boils down to if this is all lies or not. Am I right? Can a US government body be capable of fabricating this whole entire thing up?

You either have a short memory span or or you are not aware of this story or you believed it all along.

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/06/lie-after-lie-what-colin-powell-knew...

In my opinion, Russiagate is not what it appears. People were charged in this case in full knowledge that they will NEVER appear before an impartial trial to shed light on this. If those charged were to appear, they would have the opportunity to forward evidence that could embarrass the US! I myself personally will never say someone/group is guilty of anything unless that person had the opportunity to give their version of events and was allowed to present evidence.

I will never sacrifice my standards! Why the fuck would I ever lower my standards for the US government?!?!?!?!

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Fair enough, WWWTT. We have different methods and standards for guessing what is real. Perhaps enough information will eventually be available that we will be able to agree on what happened here.

NDPP

Guardians of the Magnitsky Myth: Will the Real Bill Browder Please Step Forward

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-07-21/guardians-magnitsky-myth-will-...

"In pursuit of Russia-gate, US mainstream media embraces any attack on Russia and works to ensure [North] Americans don't hear the other side of the story, as with the Magnitsky myth."

 

The Magnitsky Act: Behind the Scenes

https://www.bitchute.com/video/lQ3qEwX66pIL

NDPP

Russia! Russia! Russia! : The Burden of Proof is on the Russiagaters

https://t.co/3H1kJvATNy

"Until hard, verifiable proof of Russian election interference and/or collusion with the Trump campaign is made publicly available, we are winning this debate as long as we continue pointing out that this proof doesn't exist. All you have to do to beat a Russiagater in a debate is point this out..."

"Anyone who thinks they can help advance the Russiagate narrative while still advancing progressive agendas is a fucking idiot. They will 'Russia! Russia! you to the right on every single issue, every single time, without exception. That's the entire fucking point."

https://twitter.com/caitoz/status/1021590185845256192

bekayne

NDPP wrote:

Russia! Russia! Russia! : The Burden of Proof is on the Russiagaters

https://t.co/3H1kJvATNy

"Until hard, verifiable proof of Russian election interference and/or collusion with the Trump campaign is made publicly available, we are winning this debate as long as we continue pointing out that this proof doesn't exist. All you have to do to beat a Russiagater in a debate is point this out..."

"Anyone who thinks they can help advance the Russiagate narrative while still advancing progressive agendas is a fucking idiot. They will 'Russia! Russia! you to the right on every single issue, every single time, without exception. That's the entire fucking point."

https://twitter.com/caitoz/status/1021590185845256192

Anyone who thinks they can help advance the progressive agenda while still advancing Trump's agenda is a fucking idiot.

NDPP

2017: "New book 'Shattered', by Clinton insiders reveal that 'blame Russia' plan was hatched 'within 24 hours' of election loss. The author details how Clinton went out of her way to pass blame for her stunning loss on 'Comey and Russia.'

'That strategy had been set within 24 hours of her concession speech. Mook and Podesta assembled her communications team at the Brooklyn headquarters to engineer the case that the election wasn't entirely on the-up-and-up. For a couple of hours, with Shake Shack containers littering the room, they went over the script they would pitch to the press and the public. Already, Russian hacking was the centerpiece of the argument."

And the rest is history, the little scam took off like a house on fire and the chumps joined up in droves...

https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/862801658132254720

NDPP

"Mueller is interested in the work that Ta9d Devine, who was the chief strategist for Bernie Sanders 2016 presidential campaign did with Manafort on behalf of the RUSSIA-aligned Ukraine Party of Regions..."

https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/1019989409314361344

josh

bekayne wrote:

NDPP wrote:

Russia! Russia! Russia! : The Burden of Proof is on the Russiagaters

https://t.co/3H1kJvATNy

"Until hard, verifiable proof of Russian election interference and/or collusion with the Trump campaign is made publicly available, we are winning this debate as long as we continue pointing out that this proof doesn't exist. All you have to do to beat a Russiagater in a debate is point this out..."

"Anyone who thinks they can help advance the Russiagate narrative while still advancing progressive agendas is a fucking idiot. They will 'Russia! Russia! you to the right on every single issue, every single time, without exception. That's the entire fucking point."

https://twitter.com/caitoz/status/1021590185845256192

Anyone who thinks they can help advance the progressive agenda while still advancing Trump's agenda is a fucking idiot.

Or Putin’s.

josh

NDPP wrote:

2017: "New book 'Shattered', by Clinton insiders reveal that 'blame Russia' plan was hatched 'within 24 hours' of election loss. The author details how Clinton went out of her way to pass blame for her stunning loss on 'Comey and Russia.'

'That strategy had been set within 24 hours of her concession speech. Mook and Podesta assembled her communications team at the Brooklyn headquarters to engineer the case that the election wasn't entirely on the-up-and-up. For a couple of hours, with Shake Shack containers littering the room, they went over the script they would pitch to the press and the public. Already, Russian hacking was the centerpiece of the argument."

And the rest is history, the little scam took off like a house on fire and the chumps joined up in droves...

https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/862801658132254720

Exactly right.  They made up the whole story that the DNC and Clinton campaign’s emails were stolen months earlier and disseminated.  The same thing happened in 1972 when the McGovern campaign made up the story the day after their loss that the DNC headquarters was broken into five months earlier by the Nixon campaign.

NDPP

TRNN: Debating the Putin Panic

https://youtu.be/tUoJwXtMue4

"Can we be real? It's crazy, it's beyond crazy. This is reckless, dangerous war-mongering talk. Somebody called it 'Trump Derangement Syndrome,' but it's a widespread mania across our land, and when good people succumb to it, we are all endangered."

NDPP

Breaking: "Former DNI James Clapper Says Barack Obama is personally 'responsible' for appointment of special counsel to investigate the campaign of his political opponent Donald Trump."

https://twitter.com/WiredSources/status/1021892325319094273

 

Moon-Strzok No More: Lisa Page Spills Beans

http://consortiumnews.com/2018/07/23/moon-strzok-no-more-lisa-page-spill...

"The meaning of a crucial text message between two FBI officials appears to have been finally explained, and it's not good news for the Russia-gate faithful, as Ray McGovern explains. Former FBI attorney Lisa Page has reportedly told a Joint Committee of the House of Representatives that when FBI counterintelligence official Peter Strzok texted her on May 19, 2017 saying there was 'NO BIG THERE THERE', he meant there was no evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia.

As Mark Twain put it, 'It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.' And as we have seen over the past couple of years, that goes in spades for 'Russiagate'."

 

'Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.' 

voice of the damned

I don't doubt that Hillary and Co. were blaming Russia and Comey within hours of losing, nor that they were biased in favour of that explanation.

Seems a little odd that they would be able to convince numerous intelligence agencies to automatically go along with the theory, if it was all just being fabricated from whole cloth. This isn't like "Iraq has WMD, let's invade", the Russiagate theory directly undermines a sitting President. Hard to see the agencies going along with that just based on Hillary's self-serving pout.

 

josh

NDPP wrote:

Breaking: "Former DNI James Clapper Says Barack Obama is personally 'responsible' for appointment of special counsel to investigate the campaign of his political opponent Donald Trump."

https://twitter.com/WiredSources/status/1021892325319094273

 

Moon-Strzok No More: Lisa Page Spills Beans

http://consortiumnews.com/2018/07/23/moon-strzok-no-more-lisa-page-spill...

"The meaning of a crucial text message between two FBI officials appears to have been finally explained, and it's not good news for the Russia-gate faithful, as Ray McGovern explains. Former FBI attorney Lisa Page has reportedly told a Joint Committee of the House of Representatives that when FBI counterintelligence official Peter Strzok texted her on May 19, 2017 saying there was 'NO BIG THERE THERE', he meant there was no evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia.

As Mark Twain put it, 'It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.' And as we have seen over the past couple of years, that goes in spades for 'Russiagate'."

 

'Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.' 

Clapper said no such thing.  Another lie.

 

As for being fooled, the initial claim was that Russia hacked the Democrats.  That has been substantiated.  The question of collusion awaits the results of the Mueller investigation.

 

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

NDPP wrote:

Breaking: "Former DNI James Clapper Says Barack Obama is personally 'responsible' for appointment of special counsel to investigate the campaign of his political opponent Donald Trump."

https://twitter.com/WiredSources/status/1021892325319094273

 

Moon-Strzok No More: Lisa Page Spills Beans

http://consortiumnews.com/2018/07/23/moon-strzok-no-more-lisa-page-spill...

"The meaning of a crucial text message between two FBI officials appears to have been finally explained, and it's not good news for the Russia-gate faithful, as Ray McGovern explains. Former FBI attorney Lisa Page has reportedly told a Joint Committee of the House of Representatives that when FBI counterintelligence official Peter Strzok texted her on May 19, 2017 saying there was 'NO BIG THERE THERE', he meant there was no evidence of collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia.

As Mark Twain put it, 'It is easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.' And as we have seen over the past couple of years, that goes in spades for 'Russiagate'."

 

'Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.' 

FAKE RIGHT WING NEWS! the only fool is you.

NDPP

josh wrote:

Clapper said no such thing.  Another lie.

As for being fooled, the initial claim was that Russia hacked the Democrats.  That has been substantiated.  The question of collusion awaits the results of the Mueller investigation.

 

NDPP wrote:

Like hell it has been 'substantiated' unless you mean asserted by the NYT or WaPo. The video says what it says and the DNC incident according to technical experts can only have been a leak. The  only 'hacks' involved are the ones who write the articles you can't stop brainwashing yourself with.

josh
bekayne

NDPP wrote:

Breaking: "Former DNI James Clapper Says Barack Obama is personally 'responsible' for appointment of special counsel to investigate the campaign of his political opponent Donald Trump."

https://twitter.com/WiredSources/status/1021892325319094273

 

"Set off a whole sequence of events". Way to take a quote totally out of context.

NDPP

CrossTalk: #MariaButina

https://youtu.be/54lB5upemT4

"Is she the most recent casualty of the West's phobia of all things related to Russia?

NDPP

High Crimes and Misdemeanors - Not by Trump but Obama and Democrats  -  by Ajamu Baraka [*Must Read*]

https://blackagendareport.com/high-crimes-and-misdemeanors-not-trump-oba...

"With the revelations about the role and activities of Peter Strzok and Lisa Page, the Comey leak to the press, with the express purpose to create a pretext for the appointment of a special counsel, the placing of an FBI informant in the Trump campaign, the role of Andrew McCabe in covering up for his subordinates and leaking classified information to the press, the 'primary narrative' of the Democratic party and liberals is starting to unravel. 

In actuality, it points to criminal use of the government's counterintelligence capabilities to engage in a partisan manipulation of the electoral process."

Not only that but the vast majority of the grassroots long ago, lost track of and patience with 'Russia, Russia, Russia' while so many important issues remain undealt with. Dems will lose if they think they can make this the issue to win an election on. It's elite politics only.

josh

Your sources have had this “unraveling” for some 20 months now.  All the while it continues to gain steam.  And that post could have been written by Devin Nunes.  Or Sean Hannity.  Nothing but lies, distortions and irrelevancies.  As for “elite politics,” the same charge was made during Watergate.  Nixon ended up resigning and the Democrats gained nearly 50 seats in the House.

NDPP

Ajamu Baraka isn't Sean Hannity or Nunes, nor am I. 

voice of the damned

Ajamu Baraka wrote:

The critique and rejection of NATO, supporting de-escalation of tensions with Russia, exposing hegemony of finance capital, revealing the anti-democratic nature of the European Union, opposing international “trade” agreements like the Trans-Pacific Partnership and trans-Atlantic Investment Partnership, demanding that U.S. forces withdraw from Syria and questioning the role of Saudi Arabia in spreading right-wing Wahhabism throughout the world, are now positions taken up by the right because the imperial left has aligned itself with the agenda of transnational capital and its imperialist objectives in lieu of presenting a people’s agenda.

Who exactly are these people on "the right" who are rejecting NATO and challenging Saudi Arabia's spread of right-wing Wahhabism? Could I get a list of these heroes?

josh

Yeah.  Trump and his cohorts are doing the bidding of the Saudis as much as they are doing the bidding of the Israelis. 

There is some truth to the notion that liberals have aligned themselves with international capital.  But they're not the left.

NorthReport

Trump's Russia mess is dropping him in the polls, and Trump is now being investigated for his ludicrous Twitter phobia. That any progresssive here and elsewhere supports this right-wing wannabe dictator blows the mind! 

bekayne

If you don't support Trump you're for World War III. So I've been told.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

All I know for sure is the Dutch have admitted to illegally hacking into Russian intelligence sites. Personally I don't believe anyones version of who hacked who because the world is full of intelligence agencies who spend billions of dollars hacking each other. Those same intelligence agencies also regularily try to influence other countries elections. All spies are capable of lying so who the hell can believe any of them.

The Orange Herring is performing his role to a tee.

NDPP

Why the Russia-Trump Collusion Conspiracy Theory Isn't Catching On

https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/07/26/why-the-russia-trump-collusion-c...

"With the revelations about the role and activities of Peter Strzok and Lisa Page, the Comey leak to the press, with the express purpose to create a pretext for the appointment of a special counsel, the placing of an FBI informant in the Trump campaign, the role of Andrew McCabe in covering up for his subordinates and leaking classified information to the press, the 'primary narrative' of the Democratic Party and liberals is starting to unravel..."

 

The Russia Obsession

https://lbo-news.com/2018/07/20/the-russia-obsession/

Good God, the Russia obsession!

It seems that Democrats are now incapable of talking about anything else but Russian interference in our sacred election...We're seeing Dem pundits even accusing Bernie Sanders and other insurgents within the party of being Russian agents, witting or unwitting. Their indictments of Trump for treason make them sound like demented right-wingers at the height of the Cold War."

The Jimmy Dore Show

FBI Never Inspected DNC Server - Seriously!

https://youtu.be/iEUM8PdoeaE

Tucker Carlson SLAMS 'Intelligence Community' on Russia

https://youtu.be/WtPhXsIExwI

Carry on Chumps...Burn America burn!

josh

Oooh.  Tucker Carlson.

Meanwhile, Michael Cohen is getting ready to sing.  But don't worry about it, Rudy is on the case.

https://twitter.com/RVAwonk/status/1022815820106358785

 

josh

And this is who Trump is really worried about singing.

A federal grand jury investigating President Donald Trump's former personal lawyer Michael Cohen for possible crimes has subpoenaed the chief financial officer of Trump's company, Allen Weisselberg, to testify, a new report said Thursday.

The Wall Street Journal, citing sources familiar with the case, said that Weisselberg, who is an executive of the Trump Organization, is considered a witness in the ongoing probe of Trump's ex-attorney Michael Cohen.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/26/trump-org-cfo-called-to-grand-jury-to-testify-wsj.html

 

NDPP

When Worse is the Enemy of Bad

https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/07/26/when-worse-is-the-enemy-of-bad/

"...Truly an Orwellian clusterfuck this. War Party Dems, misleading naive liberal souls sickened by Trump into embracing the dirty, vicious lunacy Hillary peddled to her fans, the bankers, brokers and CEOs of the war machine. Trump is a fool who may yet blunder us into war; the Dems of the Deep State cabal would give us war by design."

 

The Elite Fixation With Russiagate

https://t.co/IHDK6uaoCj

"Amid fervent speculation that Trump may be a Kremlin asset, Israel's brazen (and actually documented) foreign meddling barely registers."

Why is that, do you suppose? 

bekayne

https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/07/27/the-curious-case-of-pro-trump-le...

Trump may be an orange-faced ignoramus peddling xenophobic and racist demagogy like knock-off Louis Vuittons in Chinatown, but at least he’s trying to make peace. What do you want, nuclear war?”

Some variation of this many-headed hydra of inane analysis is often trotted out to deflect criticism of Trump, typically wrapped in the silky veneer of Facebook radicalism from a number of self-proclaimed leftists. And while liberals knit ever more pussy hats for the inevitable flashmob of political nothingness, a relatively small, yet zealously self-important, segment of the left demands that much legitimate criticism of Trump be viewed as liberal talking points unleashed by the Deep StateTM to scuttle Trump’s long march to peace.

As absurd as it sounds, there are leftists who honestly believe that irrespective of his xenophobia and race-baiting, disastrous trade war and perpetual warmongering against Iran, Venezuela, Big Bird, Colin Kaepernick and Mika Brzezinski’s plastic surgeon, Donald Trump somehow represents a move toward peace globally.

Indeed, because of the Dotard’s doting on Putin, we should all sing hosannas as we erect cheaply made gold-plated monuments in his honor.

But back on Planet Earth, even the specious notion that Trump is somehow a peacemaker cannot fake news its way into being true. In fact, if anything, Trump has been the most bellicose president in recent memory. But don’t tell those Trumpy lefties that. Their fever dreams of political analysis, though rooted in a justified yet thoroughly one-dimensional hatred of Democrats, are simply too brittle to take it.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

The problem lies in decades of US voters having to choose the lesser of evils. Both major parties are right when they point at each other saying its them that are evil. Neither party deserves a vote from any rational person who believes in peace, order and good government.

Trump won because all other choices for the Rep nomination were equally bad or ludicrous. Then on the Dem side the DNC did everything it could to subvert its own nomination process so that Clinton would win. So you get an election between a conman reciting the real problems to get elected and a backroom operater who cheers when her troops treat the head of a soverign state like a cur in the streets.

Some people actually believe one of these sides is good but not many intelligent and well informed observers.

NDPP

"Confidence among Democrats in the CIA or the FBI - that's the CIA or FBI - is sky high."

http://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1023627424339316736

Looks like Russiagate is working after all.

voice of the damned

NDPP wrote:

"Confidence among Democrats in the CIA or the FBI - that's the CIA or FBI - is sky high."

http://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1023627424339316736

Looks like Russiagate is working after all.

Well, accroding to those same polls, Republicans now have LESS confidence in the intelligence agencies. So if the point of the Russia investigation is to get Americans feeling good about the intelligence agencies, I'd say the results are somewhat mixed, at best.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

voice of the damned wrote:

NDPP wrote:

"Confidence among Democrats in the CIA or the FBI - that's the CIA or FBI - is sky high."

http://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1023627424339316736

Looks like Russiagate is working after all.

Well, accroding to those same polls, Republicans now have LESS confidence in the intelligence agencies. So if the point of the Russia investigation is to get Americans feeling good about the intelligence agencies, I'd say the results are somewhat mixed, at best.

And, of course, as NDPP knows, the Republicans are the only real Americans, especially the white Republicans.

NorthReport

Promoting the right-wing GOP here is definitely unusual to say the least. Bizarre might be more accurate.

NDPP

The Jimmy Dore Show: Polls Show Americans Don't Care About Russia

https://youtu.be/G6mHsR4GfdU

"The non-stop Russia coverage continues, even though less than 1% of the nation cares."

voice of the damned

NDPP wrote:

The Jimmy Dore Show: Polls Show Americans Don't Care About Russia

https://youtu.be/G6mHsR4GfdU

"The non-stop Russia coverage continues, even though less than 1% of the nation cares."

And yet, Democrats are all flocking over to the pro-CIA/FBI camp out of support for the investigation?

josh

Hueing to the Russian propaganda line often means having to spew blatant contradictions.

NDPP

lol - says a relentless Washington Poster.

josh

Stephen Walt‏Verified account @stephenWalt 35s35 seconds ago 

1. Russia didn't interfere

2. It had no effect.

3. NOBODY in our campaign knew about it.

4. Nobody IMPORTANT knew about it.

5. Top people knew, but that's not "collusion."

6. "Collusion is perfectly ok."

7. Next up: "collusion is good b/c it helped us win."

What was known in Watergate as the modified, limited hangout.

NDPP

"...Honest question: do you think there is more 'collusion' with Russia or with Israel in the US political system?"

https://twitter.com/AliAbunimah/status/1023960916306665477

Chumps?

josh

Legitimate question, but in this instance totally besides the point.  Kind of reminds me of the Zionists  who respond to claims of human rights violations by Israel by saying, but what about . . . .?

NDPP

Legitimate question but no answer...Never is. What elephant in the room?

voice of the damned

NDPP wrote:

Legitimate question but no answer...Never is. What elephant in the room?

The US political system is more tilted toward Zionism than toward Russia. But that doesn't address the question of illegal activities.

As I've mentioned before, when Pollard got caught spying for Israel, he went to jail. That might seem somewhat odd, given that what he handed Israel was probably a drop in the bucket compared to what the US gives Israel as a matter of routine, but that's the nature of illegal activities: they are dealt with more severely than legal activities, even legal activities that are of dubious moral character.

Back to Trump/Russia, if anyone is found to have illegally colluded with Russia during the election, they can be charged with criminal activities. For now, we'll wait and see what comes out.  

NDPP

Israeli Intervention in US Elections 'Vastly Overwhelms' Anything Russia Has Done, Claims Chomsky

https://t.co/SHvyEPleo6

"Veteran activist Noam Chomsky has accused Israel of 'brazenly' interfering in US electoral politics in a way that vastly outweighs any efforts that may have been carried out by Russia."

Chomsky remarks the obvious elephant in the room Russiagate 'not-sees' deliberately avoid. 

Pogo Pogo's picture

Squirrel

josh

Seems that someone is really sweating:

This is a terrible situation and Attorney General Jeff Sessions should stop this Rigged Witch Hunt right now, before it continues to stain our country any further. Bob Mueller is totally conflicted, and his 17 Angry Democrats that are doing his dirty work are a disgrace to USA!

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1024646945640525826

NDPP

And he may not be the only one sweating. Delightful, more popcorn.  But having started such a fire the Dem arsonists should remember they cannot necessarily predict or control  the reaction to it nevermind where or who it may eventually burn. Or maybe they can. Perhaps they are...

"Tad Devine's name is all over these emails, pushing a pro - Russian agenda with Manafort. Don't claim anymore that Bernie Sanders doesn't have ties to Russia. Putin put Manafort in Trump's campaign and he put Tad Devine in Bernie's. Not a coincidence!!!"

https://twitter.com/YesMrGilbert/status/1024426819741569024

Carry on Russiagaters. Lights, camera, action!

NDPP

Noam Chomsky, Russiagate & Trump

https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/1025023565756866561

"We can at least all agree that Chomsky's vehement rejection of pretty much every sacred plank of Trump/Russia orthodoxy does not mean that he's a Trump supporter, an admirer of Putin, a recent convert to alt-right ideology, a white nationalist, or a paid Kremlin agent, yes?"

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