KremlinGate

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josh

Trump admits it, after trodding out aides to deny it. 

https://twitter.com/yashar/status/864439242755371010

 

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Rev. William Barber Says GOP Voter Suppression the 'Real Hacking' of US Democracy

In an effort to bring national attention to "homegrown voter suppression" and to launch a campaign of "moral resistance" against Republican attempts to strip healthcare from millions, Rev. William J. Barber and other faith leaders marched in Washington on Friday just ahead of the anniversary of a 2013 Supreme Court ruling that effectively gutted the Voting Rights Act of 1965.

Writing for NBC News prior to the march, Barber—a member of the NAACP national board of directors and a key figure in the successful effort to overturn North Carolina's racially gerrymandered districts—argued that absent deliberate efforts by Republican lawmakers to prevent minorities from voting, a Donald Trump victory "would have never been possible."

He continued:

If Trump operatives colluded with Russian agents to hack the 2016 election, they did not do so because their opposition was weak, but because they knew the majority of Americans opposed their policies.

The same is true of the domestic assault on democracy that we have experienced in North Carolina. Extremists didn't hack our elections because the fusion coalition that demonstrated its political power in 2008 was weak. They attacked us because we are strong.

josh

The spread of Russian-made fake news stories aimed at discrediting Hillary Clinton on social media is emerging as an important line of inquiry in multiple investigations into possible collusion between the Trump campaign and Moscow.

Investigators are looking into whether Trump supporters and far-right websites coordinated with Moscow over the release of fake news, including stories implicating Clinton in murder or paedophilia, or paid to boost those stories on Facebook.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jul/05/donald-trump-russia-investigation-fake-news-hillary-clinton

NDPP

The Undeniable Pattern of Russian Hacking

https://t.co/Ztylzeku3z

 

The Stink Without A Secret

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2017/07/stink-without-secret/

"After six solid months of coordinated allegations from the mainstream media allied to the leadership of state security institutions, not one single scrap of solid evidence for Trump/Russia election hacking has emerged..."

josh

LOL.

josh

Trump Jr. and Kushner met with Kremlin connected lawyer in June 2016 about dirt on Clinton.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/09/us/politics/trump-russia-kushner-mana...

bekayne
NDPP

New Research Shows DNC Network Files Were Copied Locally, Not Hacked   -   by Elizabeth Vos

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/47407.htm

"...If true, this analysis obliterates the Russian hacking narrative completely."

josh

Jr. was told ahead of June 2016 meeting that information was part of a Russian effort to aid Trump campaign.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/10/us/politics/donald-trump-jr-russia-em...

NDPP

Russia Funding US Anti-Fracking Environmental Groups etc. (and vid)

https://t.co/znKPzR3kpE

From hacking to fracking, Russia did it.

SeekingAPolitic...

josh wrote:

Jr. was told ahead of June 2016 meeting that information was part of a Russian effort to aid Trump campaign.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/10/us/politics/donald-trump-jr-russia-em...

Jr. dumped some of his email.  It does not look good for Jr. It sounds damning indeed but I think it will come down to spliting hairs about the meaning of collusion. This will damage the Jr nor doubt.  

josh

One of his father’s former Russian business partners had been contacted by a senior Russian government official and was offering to provide the Trump campaign with dirt on Hillary Clinton.

The documents “would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father,” read the email, written by a trusted intermediary, who added, “This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump.”

. . . .

He replied within minutes: “If it’s what you say I love it especially later in the summer.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/11/us/politics/trump-russia-email-clinton.html?action=Click&contentCollection=BreakingNews&contentID=65556520&pgtype=Homepage&_r=0

NDPP

Russian Lawyer Who Met With Donald Trump Jr Linked To Investigation Group Behind Salacious Steele Dossier

https://t.co/qh4VlXag3E

"...Specifically, we have learned that the person who sought the meeting is associated with Fusion GPS , a firm which according to public reports, was retained by Democratic operatives to develop opposition research on the President and which commissioned the phony Steele dossier."

josh

          

3m3 minutes ago

Maybe everyone's been lying about the Russia stuff because they were covering up a major crime.

Ya think? 

SeekingAPolitic...

josh wrote:

          

3m3 minutes ago

Maybe everyone's been lying about the Russia stuff because they were covering up a major crime.

Ya think? 

Sorry Josh this political damaging but even CNN acknowlege that the best criminally the government can do at this point is voting crime.  Appearntly you can not accept in kind something with precieved value from foreign indivdiual, campaign finance law may be broken.  But that assumes that something of value was given at the to the trump campagin. But I am interesed at this point may there is more that smoke at this point.  Still I doubt that anyone will be charged at the end of the process.  Polotically damaging yes but not the smoking gun event.   

bekayne

Andy Pandy's coming to play

la la la la la!

 

bekayne

josh

Image result for nothing to see here

Mobo2000

And now Trump Jr has released the email chain.   

My 2 cents is this is another nothingburger to add to the big old nothingburger BBQ we've been having the past 4 months.   But hope it all works out for y'all.

 

bekayne

Mobo2000

Ug!  Print too small!   Can't read!   From all the tiny arrows I assume it's the email chain.

 

 

Rev Pesky

the Trump trajectory:

a. It didn't happen.

b. It did happen, but it was not what the media said it was.

c. Oh look! There goes Hilary Clinton!

And after all, what has Vladimir Putin got from this. Well, he definitely didn't want a Clinton presidency, and he definitely didn't want a strong president of any stripe. I'd say at this point it's Putin 2, USA 0.

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
but even CNN acknowlege that the best criminally the government can do at this point is voting crime.  Appearntly you can not accept in kind something with precieved value from foreign indivdiual, campaign finance law may be broken.  But that assumes that something of value was given at the to the trump campagin. But I am interesed at this point may there is more that smoke at this point.

Huh?

I think you've suggested at some point that for medical reasons you might not always be on point.

At the same time, what are any of us to make of this word salad, in a respectful way?

SeekingAPolitic...

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
but even CNN acknowlege that the best criminally the government can do at this point is voting crime.  Appearntly you can not accept in kind something with precieved value from foreign indivdiual, campaign finance law may be broken.  But that assumes that something of value was given at the to the trump campagin. But I am interesed at this point may there is more that smoke at this point.

Huh?

I think you've suggested at some point that for medical reasons you might not always be on point.

At the same time, what are any of us to make of this word salad, in a respectful way?

Even CNN which I consider to be the harshest critic of Trump said that utimlately there is nothing criminal about the email release.  Rather the talking heads with actual experience with the law said that while potitically its ugly but not criminal in nature. But that the Trump and associates could be charged with campagin finance laws being broken.  Because a forigerner can not contribute to a campaign the meeting between the russian lawyer and jr used as edivence as breaking the finance law.  If you conivince a jury the information given by the russian lawyer had value to the Trump campagin.  Even this is long shot.  Josh was ready call it a day and point that this the smoking gun but it is not the case.  I hope this less of a word salad.  Thank you pointing out that my post could have been consdiered a word jumble.  Magoo

Rev Pesky

Smoking gun or not smoking gun? It all depends.

All those associated with the Trump campaign for presidency swore up and down they had nothing to do with Russians, they never met them, they didn't conspire with them, the whole Russia thing was a will o' the wisp.

They denied the allegations because Russia has always been the 'enemy'. They didn't want to be seen as being helped by Russia to win the election. So they denied everything, always.

Now, it turns out that they did meet with the Russians, in the hopes the Russians would provide them with ammunition against Hilary Clinton.

Regardless of the legalities, they lied. Trump Jr. could have told his story long ago, letting everybody know that he met with some Russian lawyer in the hopes of finding some incriminating circumstance that would do damage to Hilary Clinton, but the Russians didn't really have anything.

That would have sounded pretty bad then, and it sounds pretty bad now. Trump Jr. was sucked in by his own desire to help his father to defeat Clinton, and now he looks like a lying idiot. Which is what he is. Is that criminal? I doubt it, but in the USA what's criminal is often subject to the whims of the moment, so who knows?

In any case, the meeting did absolutely nothing for him, or his father, and yet has made him look pretty dumb in the USA public eye. Did Putin plan it this way? That's certainly a question. My own feeling is he did, and has now reduced the USA government to the level of a group of children hurling insults in the schoolyard.

Meanwhile, Rex Tillerson is over in Qatar trying to resolve that situation, but nobody's paying any attention to him. He and the Qatari Foreign Minister signed some bogus 'we won't fund terrorists' agreement, but the other USA client states in the area are refusing to let that stop their boycott of Qatar.

And what's Trump Sr. doing to help the situation? Nothing. I think he spends most of his time watching CNN at 4:00 o'clock in the morning, so he has something to tweet. What a useless twit!

NDPP

'Inane Nonsense'

https://youtu.be/Hdzyt8qL1bU

"Trump Jr. releases Russian lawyer meeting emails. 'Russia, Russia, Russia, Russia....There's nothing there!"

 

Russian Lawyer Says Kremlin Didn't Tell Her To Meet Trump Jr

https://t.co/0vkdTsW61y

"I did not have an assignment from the Kremlin, there were no orders from the government..."

 

Forget Don Jr.'s Email  - It's Hillary Who 'Colluded' With Russia

http://hill.cm/9hFCmnI

NDPP

Which Campaign Truly Colluded With Russia?

https://t.co/v22yo4G3an

"Which of the two cases stinks of 'collusion with the Russians'?

bekayne

NDPP wrote:

 

Forget Don Jr.'s Email  - It's Hillary Who 'Colluded' With Russia

http://hill.cm/9hFCmnI

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayleigh_McEnany

After graduating from Georgetown University, McEnany worked as a producer for Mike Huckabee's TV show.[10] She has interned for several politicians including Tom GallagherAdam Putnam, and George W. Bush, for both his 2004 campaign and in the White House Office of Communications in the Media Affairs department.[10] On CNN, she is frequently called on to defend President Donald Trump, whom she supported during the 2016 presidential election.[2][11] She announced her endorsement of Trump for president on February 1, 2016.[12][13]

In February 2017, McEnany had a heated exchange with New York Times columnist Charles Blow on CNN's show, CNN Tonight with Don Lemon.[14][15][16]

In March 2017, McEnany apologized after she claimed Barack Obama was President when Daniel Pearl, an American journalist, was beheaded by terrorists in Pakistan in 2002. George W. Bush was commander in chief at that time, while Obama was an Illinois state senator.[17]

josh

NDPP is plumbing the depths of his association with right-wing, Alice in Wonderland, Trump supporters.

voice of the damned

Rev Pesky wrote:

Smoking gun or not smoking gun? It all depends.

etc.

 

The odd thing about Trump/Russia is that it basically consists of  a bunch of individual things which, taken in isolation, don't seem to mean much, but when examined together kind of make you go "Hmm", even though they don't quite add up to a solid narrative.

For example, maybe Trump was just joking when he went on TV and asked Russia to find more incriminating e-mails on Clinton. People were already talking about alleged Russian hacking, so he just thought he'd make a hyperbolic quip of it. I can buy that.

But then why did he turn around and give an interview to Russia Today, of all stations? I'm not overly hostile to RT(though the idea that it is progressive is laughable), but it's certainly not the network of choice for US political candidates looking to establish credibility with the voting public. Especially not when you've already got Manchurian Candidate allegations swirling about your general personage.

Now, like I say, none of that adds up to a holistic narrative, in fact, you could argue that a Russian proxy would be LESS likely to appear on RT, since that just only raises the suspicions even higher. But then, WHY did he choose Russia Today? Was it just that he absolutely had to be interviewed by Larry King, and King is contractually bound to RT these days?

 

voice of the damned

^ And the Steele Dossier was all compiled before the stuff I mention above ever happened. So, Steele fabricated or repeated false allegations that Trump went to Russia and did a bunch of compromising stuff in a Moscow hotel room, and then Trump turned around and decided to do a bunch of stuff that would make all that sound believable?

josh

The odd thing about Trump/Russia is that it basically consists of  a bunch of individual things which, taken in isolation, don't seem to mean much, but when examined together kind of make you go "Hmm", even though they don't quite add up to a solid narrative.

It's like not being able to see the forest for the trees.  If you stand back and look at the whole thing, it adds up to a pretty solid narrative.  Which is, that Russia sought to aid Trump and defeat Clinton, and the Trump campaign were, at least, willing accomplices in that effort.

josh

Investigators at the House and Senate Intelligence committees and the Justice Department are examining whether the Trump campaign’s digital operation – overseen by Jared Kushner – helped guide Russia’s sophisticated voter targeting and fake news attacks on Hillary Clinton in 2016.

Congressional and Justice Department investigators are focusing on whether Trump’s campaign pointed Russian cyber operatives to certain voting jurisdictions in key states – areas where Trump’s digital team and Republican operatives were spotting unexpected weakness in voter support for Hillary Clinton, according to several people familiar with the parallel inquiries.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/article160803619.html

 

bekayne

https://www.mediamatters.org/video/2017/07/11/trump-ally-alex-jones-dona...

Trump ally Alex Jones: Donald Trump Jr. was “doing his job … trying to find Russian spies”

NDPP

Anti-Russia Narrative Will Continue...

https://on.rt.com/8hjt

"...What happened? Well nobody paid attention to what was in the emails - namely, that the DNC fixed the nomination so that Sanders wouldn't win. Nobody paid attention to that. The whole thing was a magnificant distraction. 'The Russians hacked, the Russians hacked, the Russians...' There is still no evidence. There were about five investigations in search of a crime. That is really unique in my experience in Washington." - Ray McGovern, Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS).

Mobo2000

"The odd thing about Trump/Russia is that it basically consists of  a bunch of individual things which, taken in isolation, don't seem to mean much, but when examined together kind of make you go "Hmm", even though they don't quite add up to a solid narrative."

 

Yes, the relentless stream of anonymously sourced/firehouse propoganda from MSNBC/CNN/NYT is designed to make you go hmm without giving you hmm worthy evidence.   No smoking gun, no concrete evidence, no charges.   Just a 7 month investigation with no result, apart from great ratings, profits and the creation of an incensed, easily distracted audience that is happy to turn politics into pop psychology analysis of Trump.    Hmmm.

 

josh

LOL.  Rather ironic that as the evidence continues to pile up, the Trump symps get louder and louder in denying that there is any.  As for charges, that's what Bob Mueller is there for.  But in a matter this big, and the number of people involved, it takes time.

voice of the damned

Mobo2000 wrote:

"The odd thing about Trump/Russia is that it basically consists of  a bunch of individual things which, taken in isolation, don't seem to mean much, but when examined together kind of make you go "Hmm", even though they don't quite add up to a solid narrative."

 

Yes, the relentless stream of anonymously sourced/firehouse propoganda from MSNBC/CNN/NYT is designed to make you go hmm without giving you hmm worthy evidence.   No smoking gun, no concrete evidence, no charges.   Just a 7 month investigation with no result, apart from great ratings, profits and the creation of an incensed, easily distracted audience that is happy to turn politics into pop psychology analysis of Trump.    Hmmm.

 

Well, just to be clear, Trump asking the Russians to release hacked e-mails wasn't "anonymously sourced propaganda"; he went right on TV and did that in front of the whole world. 

My point is that, while that is somewhat suggestive on its own, it doesn't entirely jibe with a lot of the other pieces of evidence, each of which is also, taken in isolation, rather suggestive. If Trump was colluding with the Russians to release hacked e-mails, why would be brag about that on TV? The two things kind of cancel each other out, but the fact remains, he DID go on TV and say that. And is it just a total coincidence that, when Steele supposedly sat down to fabricate a story out of thin air, the story he chose to make up was one that more-or-less matched Trump's subsequent public actions? 

 

Rev Pesky

From Mobo2000:

Yes, the relentless stream of anonymously sourced...

You can hardly refer to Donald Trump Jr.'s emails as 'anonymously sourced. They were, after all, revelead by himself. And you can't discount the enthusiasm Trump Jr. expressed when told that this Russian lawyer had evidence that would incriminate Hilary Clinton. Nor can you deny that Trump Jr. lied when he said the meeting was about the program of adopting Russsian children.

Or maybe you can. It does seem that Trump true believers live in a separate reality.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

The Intercept has an article up about the Agalarov family, and their long-standing, close ties with Donald Trump. It turns out there is quite a bit about this in the Steele dossier as well.

Robert Mackey wrote:

IT TOOK FOUR years longer than he’d hoped, but on Tuesday the Russian oligarch Aras Agalarov finally succeeded in his aim of using Donald Trump to make his son Emin famous in the United States.

The plan was hatched in 2013, when the elder Agalarov paid Trump handsomely to bring his Miss Universe contestants to Moscow, where they were required to swoon in a music video intended to launch Emin’s singing career.

Emin from Russia–a very talented guy. All proceeds go to help the Philippines. @eminofficial #missuniverse http://t.co/Y6TJL7znRD

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 20, 2013

The oligarch even persuaded Trump himself to appear in the video, and arranged for Emin to perform during the pageant’s worldwide broadcast, reportedly dismaying NBC executives.

Mobo2000

The stories that asserted the existence of the email chain were anonymously sourced (3 of them).   Jr. released the chain in response to those stories.   

99% of the rest of the stories put out by the mainstream media about Trump/Russia collusion were similarly anonymously sourced.   If the target of these stories were Bernie Sanders, would you think this was acceptable, or a fair and reasonable way for the media to report on it?

Rev:  I'm a little disappointed by this, you typically resist cheap shots and have seemed much more capable of nuance in other posts.    Do you consider any of Trump Jr's actions that "can't be discounted" as evidence of a crime?   And why on earth would it be surprising to anyone that he would be enthusiastic to receive info harmful to Hillary during an election campaign? 

To the true believers in Russian collusion:

I hope you get what you want, and Trump is somehow impeached or charged criminally.   I hope if that happens the evidence is clear and the case is air-tight.   Because if it's not, what has gone on up to now in the MSN is utterly unconvincing to people who are not Democratic party members, and they will be incensed.  

And the clear and obvious danger, that most have studiously avoided in this thread, is that these media tactics will be applied against politicians or candidates who are progressive, who you do support.  

Finally, please consider the enormous opportunity cost of this narrative to progressives.   I think americans would be better served to focus on the policy and actions of the Trump administration.    CNN stopped focusing on the Paris Climate Accord and back to Russia gate because of ratings.    We might be better able to resist Trump administration's current agenda better if the media actually paid attention to it.

 

josh

And the clear and obvious danger, that most have studiously avoided in this thread, is that these media tactics will be applied against politicians or candidates who are progressive, who you do support.  

Guess you never heard of Bill and Hillary Clinton.  Or Fox News, the Murdoch media empire, talk radio, Sinclair, etc.

what has gone on up to now in the MSN is utterly unconvincing to people who are not Democratic party members,

Does that include the 55% or so who disapprove of Trump's job performance?  Or the majority of those polled who are concerned about this issue?

Mobo2000

Josh:   Hey, I have heard of Fox news and the Murdoch empire!   I thought we didn't trust them and despised their guilt by association tactics, use of unverifiable sources, and dogwhistling xenophobia.   

It's  different for you, I guess, when it's "progressive" media using Fox tactics on conservative opponents.   Whatever works, amIright?  

 

josh

Just responding to your claim that somehow this will backfire.  And difference here is that these are actual serious credible charges.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
LOL.  Rather ironic that as the evidence continues to pile up, the Trump symps get louder and louder in denying that there is any.

Distraction display

Quote:
Distraction displays, also known as diversionary displays, or paratrepsis are anti-predator behaviors used to attract the attention of an enemy away from something, typically the nest or young, that is being protected by a parent. Distraction displays are sometimes classified more generically under "nest protection behaviors" along with aggressive displays such as mobbing. These displays have been studied most extensively in bird species, but also have been documented in populations of stickleback fish and in some mammal species.

Rev Pesky

From Mobo2000:

The stories that asserted the existence of the email chain were anonymously sourced (3 of them).   Jr. released the chain in response to those stories...

...Rev:  I'm a little disappointed by this, you typically resist cheap shots and have seemed much more capable of nuance in other posts.    Do you consider any of Trump Jr's actions that "can't be discounted" as evidence of a crime? 

Point #1. Trump Jr. released the emails when he knew that others were going to publish them, but had not yet done so. His emails, as revealed by him, are the same as those that were to be released by the NYT. 

Point #2: What was there in my post that you see as a cheap shot. I did nothing more than state the facts of this particular event. My comment was sourced by Trump Jr. himself, which can hardly be a cheap shot.

Point#3: Did I say anywhere in that post, or any other post, that his behaviour was criminal? In fact I said I doubted that his behaviour was criminal, but qualified it a bit by saying that often times the whim of the public affects what is considered criminal in the USA. 

What I said about that which 'couldn't be discounted' was his enthusiasm for information that would incriminate Hilary Clinton, and that is a simple fact. The evidence is right in his email. 

I'll go a bit further and say that I believe Trump Jr. was played by a superior player, and that he was just too stupid to realize the consequences of what he was doing. You know what a 'honey trap' is? Trump Jr. fell into a variation of that device. Too bad for him.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Here is a piece about the person referred to by Goldstone as the Russian "Crown Prosecutor", Yury Chaika, the prosecutor-general of the Russian Federation. A rather scary fellow.

BooMan wrote:

This is important for understanding why Rob Goldstone is insisting without the remotest plausibility that he was referring in his email to Trump Jr. to Natalia Veselnitskaya when he said that “the Crown prosecutor of Russia met with … Aras [Agalarov] this morning and in their meeting offered to provide some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia and would be very useful to your father.”

Put simply, Mr. Goldstone doesn’t want to be killed and if he confirmed that he was referring to Mr. Chaika his death would be a distinct possibility.

voice of the damned

josh wrote:

Just responding to your claim that somehow this will backfire.  And difference here is that these are actual serious credible charges.

Yes. I'm sympathetic to the "What if they turn around and do it to us?" argument when we're talking about passing restrictive laws that can be later used against progressives(eg. laws against anti-semitism used to harass critics of Israel), but that's not what's going on here. What's happening is that the Dems are following a paper trail, one that, it is increasingly clear, has not simply been constructed out of thin air.

And, remember, this is taking place within a context of the GOP having just spent eight years trying to convince everyone, on the basis of NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER, that Obama isn't even an American citizen. So it's not like they need questions about Trump's Russian connections as a precedent to jump into the mud.

 

NDPP

Forgetting the Democrats 'Dirty Dossier' on Trump   

https://www.newcoldwar.org/forgetting-the-democrats-dirty-dossier-on-trump/

"The new Russia-gate furor is over Donald Trump Jr meeting a Russian who claimed to have dirt on Hillary Clinton, but the Clinton team's Russian cash-for-trash search against Trump Sr is all but forgotten, writes Robert Parry."

bekayne

NDPP wrote:

Forgetting the Democrats 'Dirty Dossier' on Trump   

https://www.newcoldwar.org/forgetting-the-democrats-dirty-dossier-on-trump/

"The new Russia-gate furor is over Donald Trump Jr meeting a Russian who claimed to have dirt on Hillary Clinton, but the Clinton team's Russian cash-for-trash search against Trump Sr is all but forgotten, writes Robert Parry."

Speaking of forgetting...Parry leaves out these facts:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Trump%E2%80%93Russia_dossier#Creati...

 In September 2015, a wealthy Republican donor who opposed Trump's candidacy in the Republican primary hired Fusion GPS, an American research firm, to do opposition research on Trump. For months, Fusion GPS gathered information about Trump, focusing on his business and entertainment activities. When Trump became the presumptive nominee in May 2016, the Republican donor withdrew and the investigation contract was taken over by an unidentified Democratic client.

 

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