Libya 15
August 19, 2011 - 12:42pm
continues from here:
http://rabble.ca/babble/international-news-and-politics/libya-14
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Syndicate
NATO Bombs UNESCO Heritage Site in Libya
http://english.ruvr.ru/2011/08/18/54821739.html
"NATO aircraft have bombed the unique ancient city of Leptis Magna in Libya. Leptis Magna is a UNESCO World Heritage site famous for its antique Roman architecture..."
all targets are approved and signed off by NATO's Canadian butcher-boy, Lt General Charles Bouchard. (see Libya 14)
Libyan Deaths, Media Silence: Were Dozens Killed in Majer airstrikes/
http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=4379
Reporting that undermines Libyan claims of civilian casualties has been a staple of the war so far. Is Majer being ignored by the media because it is just more clumsy Libyan propaganda? Or is it because the story might conflict with the media's overriding message that Libyan civilians aren't dying in NATO's airstrikes?"
These denials are standard NATO operating procedure, and the same modus operandi was practised in Serbia and Afghanistan - because, as everyone knows, the follow-up reports confirming these casualties, if filed at all, never get the prominence that the initial reports of NATO denials.
The battle for Tripoli is about to start. It seems that foreign workers are scrambling to get out. The city is basically surrounded by the rebels (freedom fighters!).
New Fighting Outside Tripoli as Foreigners Seek an Exit By KAREEM FAHIM and RICK GLADSTONE Published: August 19, 2011ZAWIYAH, Libya — Rebel soldiers fought running street battles on Friday with troops loyal to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi in the heart of this strategically important city, just a half-hour’s drive from the Libyan capital of Tripoli, and there were new signs that worried foreigners in Tripoli were urgently trying to leave.
But rebel forces maintained complete control of the sprawling oil refinery here that they seized Thursday after three days of fighting. They also consolidated their hold on the vital highway from Tunisia to Tripoli and were staffing checkpoints on other roads leading out of Tripoli toward rebel-held areas.
With conditions deteriorating in Tripoli, with mounting food and gasoline shortages, thousands of foreign nationals there are now requesting assistance to leave the country, a major intergovernmental relief group that assists migrants reported Friday.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/20/world/africa/20libya.html?_r=1&hpWashington Tried to Snatch $1.5 Billion to Pay its CNT Employees - by Thierry Meyssan
http://www.voltairenet.org/Washington-tried-to-snatch-1-5
"The United States tried to seize on Monday $1,500,000,000 dollars owned by the Libyan state, but at the last minute South Africa got in its way..."
Looks like the Libyan freedom fighters will be in Tripoli soon. Their march to victory shows no signs of slowing down. In many ways it's similar to Fidel Castro's victory in Cuba. He commanded an army to overthrough a violent and repressive dictator. Now Libya will be free.
Libyan rebels close in on Gadhafi; former deputy defects
Libyan rebels battling Moammar Gadhafi's troops along the country's Mediterranean coast said they have captured all of the strategic eastern port city of Brega, which has repeatedly changed hands in the 6-month-old civil war.
Rebels closed in on Col. Gadhafi, pushing back his fighters in a fierce battle in one key coastal city and seizing another town as they advanced toward his remaining bastion, the capital of Tripoli.
The territory remaining under Col. Gadhafi's control has been shrinking dramatically in the past three weeks, with opposition fighters moving closer to Tripoli, a metropolis of 2 million people, from the west, south and east.
At the nearest point, rebel fighters are just 50 kilometres west of Tripoli, in the coastal city of Zawiya, where battles raged Friday over control of the city center. Col. Gadhafi's forces pounded rebel-held areas of the city with rockets, mortars and anti-aircraft fire, but by nightfall were pushed out of a multistory hotel on the square.
NATO's bombing campaign has made it difficult for the regime to send massive reinforcements to Zawiya, enabling the rebels to maintain a hold over much of the city, their biggest prize in months.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/africa-mideast/libyan-rebels-c...
Libyan oil minister defects as rebels seize key town of Zawiya
Rats fleeing a sinking ship.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/africa-mideast/libyan-oil-mini...
Libya rebels capture coastal city of Zawiya
Libyan rebels are in full control of the strategic western city of Zawiya, pushing Moammar Gadhafi's troops back on the road east to Tripoli.
An Associated Press reporter on Saturday visited positions held by Gadhafi troops over the past week - all of which are now under rebel control.
I wonder if Gaddafi's hiding in some sort of Fuhrer-bunker. Maybe he'll do an Adolph and save the world a trial.
What about NATO's Canadian butcher-boy General Charles Bouchard? Shouldn't he go to trial for his warcrimes?
Unfortunately, this action is approved by the UN, so it seems unlikely anyone from the freedom fighter's side (including NATO) will be required to expalin their actions.
"freedom fighter's side (including NATO)" - you've either been drinking too much of the domestic media purple coolaid or you're a real joker WM
Hopes and Doubts in Washington: Waiting for the Endgame in Libya - by Franklin Lamb
http://www.counterpunch.org/lamb08192011.html
"President Obama is said to be 'hands on' and is closely following NATO's use of 'all necessary measures to protect civilians'. NATO bombing here, including this morning's 5 AM seven bomb drop near my hotel, has become a cruel hoax for the people of Libya and all who reject the claimed right of NATO to 'destroy as a necessity to save and protect.'
NATO insiders have advised Congressional staffers recently that the apparent eternal US armed 'coalition of the willing' cannot afford another humilitation from its point of view, given Iraq and Afghanistan, so NATO has no plans to stop the bombing until one of three events occur. These three in order of NATO preference are:
Gaddafi is killed, Gaddafi 'surrenders', or Gaddafi flees Libya.
CNN just this morning aired a downright balanced report about how NATO's claim that it is protecting Libyan civilians are dubious and in fact the main cause of civilians being slaughtered here is NATO sorties, now nearly 20,000 with more than 8,000 bombing sites.."
Press Conference Moussa Ibrahim, August 19 - Zlitan in Green Hands (and vid)
http://waterput.yolasite.com/english/press-conference-moussa-ibrahim-aug...
"Together with the merciless bombing by NATO of all those who oppose their Rebels on the ground, it seems to make it all a very unfair and internationally illegal war. But since the stakes are so high, we hardly hear anyone complain [especially in Canada!]. They prefer to repeat that Gadhafi is losing and has no support in the country, to hide the reality that many people DO support him and that NATO is creating situations in which the Rebels are allowed to kill off their fellow Libyans in street to street battles, with NATO slaughtering all opposition with their helicopters and warplanes..."
Unfortunately, this action is approved by the UN, so it seems unlikely anyone from the freedom fighter's side (including NATO) will be required to expalin their actions.
'Freedom fighters' WilderMore? I'm sorry but your regrets look a little hollow to me.
Winners always decide who the 'war criminals' are or aren't, but NATO has clearly gone well beyond the limited mandate they were given. For that they could be charged --at least by the standards the UN was mandated to adhere to.
Fighting is taking place in Tripoli itself. Freedom fighters made a beach landing and liberation cells within the capital rose up as well. Looks like Gaddhafi is finished very soon.
Gunfire, explosions rock Tripoli as Libyan rebels near capitalHeavy gunfire and explosions rattled the Libyan capital Saturday after rebels seized control of a major coastal city just west of Tripoli. Rebel commanders said the firing in the capital signalled the start of an attack on Moammar Gadhafi's main stronghold.
Gun battles and rounds of mortar shelling were heard clearly at the hotel where foreign correspondents stay in the capital. Also, NATO aircraft carried out heavy bombing runs after nightfall.
Colonel Fadlallah Haroun, a rebel military commander in their stronghold of Benghazi, said this marks the beginning of Operation Mermaid — a nickname for the capital city — an assault on Tripoli co-ordinated with NATO.
Col. Haroun told The Associated Press that weapons were assembled and sent by tugboats to Tripoli on Friday night.
“The fighters in Tripoli are rising up in two places at the moment — some are in the Tajoura neighbourhood and the other is near the Matiga [international] airport,” he told the Arabic satellite channel Al-Jazeera.
The head of the National Transitional Council said the date of August 20 was chosen to co-ordinate with the ancient Muslim Battle of Badr, when Muslims conquered the holy city of Mecca in A.D. 624.
“We planned this operation with NATO, our Arab associates and our rebel fighters in Tripoli and commanders in Benghazi,” he said.
Government spokesman Moussa Ibrahim appeared on Libyan television to deny that there was an uprising in Tripoli.
“Sure, there were some armed militants who escaped into some neighbourhoods and there were some scuffles, but we dealt with it within a half hour and it is now calm,” he said.
Rebels fighting to oust Gadhafi have scored a number of victories in the six-month civil war, only to see towns fall out of their hands. Now the momentum appears to have firmly swung in the opposition's favour after months of near-deadlock.
Rebel fighters said Col. Gadhafi's troops put up little resistance before fleeing their posts in Zawiya's hospital and multistory buildings around the main square — another sign suggesting that the Libyan dictator's 42-year-old regime is crumbling.
Trucks and cars packed with rebels as well as civilians drove around Zawiya's central square, honking horns, flashing V-for-victory signs and yelling “Allahu akbar” or “God is great!” An ambulance crew posed for photos on the sidewalk while a rebel called through a loudspeaker on his truck, “Zawiya is liberated!”
Still, regime troops kept firing rockets and mortars at Zawiya from positions in the east even after rebels said they drove them out, and thunderous booms echoed across the city. The central hospital was hit by mortar rounds early Saturday, several hours after it was taken by rebels. The attack badly damaged the operating rooms, punching a hole into one of the outer walls. Metal slats from the ceiling were strewn across the floor, and soot covered the operating tables.
Rebels fighting to oust Col. Gadhafi have scored a number of victories in the six-month civil war only to see towns fall out of their hands. But the momentum appears to have firmly swung in the opposition's favor after months of near-deadlock, with the rebels holding much of the east and the Libyan regime in the west.
“Gadhafi's days are numbered,” U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Jeffrey Feltman said during a visit to the de-facto rebel capital of Benghazi. “The best case scenario is for Gadhafi to step down now ... that's the best protection for civilians.”
The Libyan leader has appeared increasingly isolated in recent weeks as opposition fighters advanced on Tripoli, a metropolis of 2 million people, from the west, south and east and gained control of major supply roads into the capital.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/africa-mideast/gunfire-explosi...
It seems this thread has been taken over by the cheerleaders of the war criminals.
This is a shameful moment in our history, as our butcher general orders the bombing of world heritage sites and civilian centres -- probably with DU.
What liberators? The Islamic fundamentalists who fought in Afghanistan and until yesterday were "our enemies"? The tribe of King Ydris,whom Qaddafi deposed to turn Libya into a republic? The opportunists who defected from the government the minute NATO got involved and threatened to bring down Qaddafi? The collaborators who sat in Virginia and the UK awaiting the go-ahead from their handlers to emerge as "democratic leaders" like El-Maliki or Karzai?
Qaddafi was/is a strongman. So what? He distributed the wealth from nationalized oil (which will no doubt end up in corporate hands, like the oil of Iraq) and provided universal health care and education, including free higher education. Women's equality was advanced considerably. The various tribes with historical differences were put on a level playing field and consulted routinely. It was a far from perfect system, but it certainly has always looked better than the brutal and infinitely more corrupt regimes of Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrein, the Emirates, Egypt, Morocco, Tunisia, Jordan... the list is pretty long. Give me a break.
Libya, along with Iran and Venezuela, are the three countries within OPEC who represent national interests over the demands of the industrialized world and the hegemonic powers. The elimination of Qaddafi is part of the scheme to de-claw OPEC.
He advocated the unity of Africa at a time when AFRICOM and the governments of the US, Europe, the UK and Canada were working to reduce the continent to a pathetic patchwork of continuously warring factions and states, to increase their arms markets and ensure easier access to natural resources. He had supported the Palestinians for a long time --something the west and Israel would never forgive-- and started to buckle after the Lockerbie bombing and its aftermath (and that bombing might not have been a Libyan plot, but since the flimsy evidence was accepted by the British courts and other evidence was not pursued, history will record it as such).
No one should have the gall to cheer the fall of Tripoli and the destruction of archaelogical sites and the dismantling of a modern socialist state. These would presumably be the same people who cheered for the destruction of Yugoslavia, first through the secession of Croatia and the attack on Serbs, then the criminal bombing of Belgrade and then through the support of the criminals of the KLA for the secession of Kosovo.
Where are the moderators of these threads?
Supporters of this war crime should be barred from rabble.
Supporters of this war crime should be barred from rabble.
it's ndp approved - they'd have to close this place down...
No one is supporting war crimes.
Libya: More People Killed in Continuing NATO Air Raids on Tripoli
http://afriquejet.com/nato-air-raids-tripoli-libya-2011082020955.html
"Many people were killed on Friday in an air-raid by NATO on the residential district of Al Aqwakh in Tripoli. The airstrike also hit a drug warehouse, a private hospital for heart treatment, as well as a mosque.."
Lt. Gen Charles Bouchard Named as Number One Man Responsible for War Crimes in Libya - by Robert Tilford
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/9884635-lt-gen-charles-bouchar...
"He is the military commander who ultimately selects and authorises strikes by NATO warplanes. As such he has become a special target for those seeking to bring war crimes charges against members of the military serving in NATO operations in Libya, which has killed thousands of civilians and most recently bombed a water pipeline that serves 70% of Libya with fresh water..."
RT: Eyewitnesses Dismiss Rebel Advances on Tripoli as Misinformation. (and vid)
http://rt.com/news/rebels-attack-tripoli-misinformation-795/
"Political analyst Mahdi Nazemroaya of Global Research says that the gunfire in the Libyan capital is sporadic and disorganised, and that its main purpose is to break down the morale of the population. 'The main point of the attackers in Tripoli is to break down the morale here and cause panic. The media here at the hotel are part of this disinformation campaign,' he said.
'They just want to feed the panic here and want the regime to collapse. They are fueling and feeding this."
Thanks, NDPP. What you quoted requires no explanation. WilderMore could look up the Geneva Convention and the U.N. Charter, however, where the pesky legalities are spelled out.
As for the New Democratic Party (you know, the one that doesn't want to be mistaken for a Socialist party), I didn't know they owned rabble.ca.
No one is supporting war crimes.
Have you lifted a finger to express any opposition to our role there? Any protests, phone-calls, emails to representatives? Anything? Silence is complicity and there's more of that in this country than anything else. That's precisely why we are where we are today. We have become a nation of servile, idiotic powder-monkeys and water-carriers for fascists, Zionists and imperialist warmongers -while still nurturing the mythology that we are a nation of 'nice', 'peaceful', 'progressive' free people. Time to put up or shut up Canada. Do something, anything to register your opposition to this evil war against the Libyan people to steal their resources and impose upon them yet another Western criminal, comprador regime.
Oh for fucks sake. I think calling for mods to ban people is just a lame style of whining. For some bazaar reason it seems to repeatedly come from the same handful of people here.
There IS heavy fighting going on in Tripoli... calling for people here to be banned just for reporting it is bullshit.
Supporting the Libyan rebels is not supporting war crimes... NATO be dammed.
this evil war against the Libyan people to steal their resources and impose upon them yet another Western criminal, comprador regime.
That's your opinion of what's going on in Libya... it would seem not everyone shares that view. Some people are more optimistic than you.
"Optimistic?" Seriously? After Iraq and Afghanistan? Well, 'optimistic's one way of putting it, I guess. I do agree with you on one thing though - calling the mods would be completely unhelpful - the Babble version of 'humanitarian intervention' eh Bec? CAW!
ps I also agree with you contra the NDP: "NATO BE DAMMED!"
Tunisia Recognizes Libya's TNC
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/194930.html
"On Saturday, the Tunisian Foreign Ministry recognized the Benghazi-based NTC as the sole legitimate representative of the Libyan people..."
ah yes, and from the birthplace of the 'Arab Spring' too...
Unfortunately, this action is approved by the UN, so it seems unlikely anyone from the freedom fighter's side (including NATO) will be required to expalin their actions.
Technically it's not.
The U.S. and NATO, by bombing (attacking) "civilians and civilian areas" (UNSCR 1973 wording) have violated UNSCR 1973 and are thus guilty of waging a War of Aggression, war crimes and crimes against humanity.
No one is supporting war crimes.
WAR is a crime.
This one is no exception.
Q.: If you have been the total dictator of your country for 40+ years, what are the 6 words you least want to hear?
A.: "rebels may soon control the airport".
Coming soon to a capital near you:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/20/libya-gaddafi-tripoli-escape-reports
The fighting in Tripoli comes after days of battlefield defeats left Muammar Gaddafi's government and troops penned ever more tightly in the besieged capital. Although the scale of the clashes was impossible to determine, there were widespread claims among the Libyan rebels that Gaddafi's 41-year rule was edging ever closer to collapse.
As gunfire was still audible outside, a government spokesman, Moussa Ibrahim, told reporters the incidents were "isolated" and short-lived. He blamed "armed gangs" of a few dozen rebels who had sneaked into Tripoli, including foreign mercenaries, some of whom had been captured.
"Sure, there were some armed militants who escaped into some neighbourhoods and there were some scuffles, but we dealt with it within a half hour and it is now calm," the spokesman said.
He added: "I ensure Libyans that Gaddafi is your leader ... Tripoli is surrounded by thousands to defend it."
It's amazing how quickly Gadhafi's troops are retreating from the freedom fighters. And that's good; less chance for bloodshed all around. Unless the plan is to turn Tripoli into some sort of Stalingrad.
"Libyan rebels captured a major military base that defends Moammar Gadhafi's stronghold of Tripoli as clashes and protests raged in the streets of the capital on Sunday.
An Associated Press reporter with the rebels rapidly advancing toward Tripoli saw them take over the base of the Khamis Brigade, 25 kilometres west of the capital. After a brief gunbattle, Gadhafi's forces fled.
Gadhafi's 27-year-old son Khamis commands the 32nd Brigade, also known simply as the Khamis Brigade, one of the best trained and equipped units in the Libyan military.
Mahmoud al-Ghwei, 20 and unarmed, was among those who reached the base with the rebels. He said he just came along with a friend because they want to ride into Tripoli with the advancing force.
"It's a great feeling. For all these years, we wanted freedom and Gadhafi kept it from us. Now we're going to get rid of Gadhafi and get our freedom.""
http://livenews.thestar.com/Event/Live_Libyan_rebels_near_Tripoli_as_Gad...
Le Monde: battle of Tripoli now under way,
live blog follows developments, as int'l reporters blog and tweet from Rixos hotel with gunfire heard on all sides:
http://www.lemonde.fr/libye/article/2011/08/21/suivez-les-combats-a-tripoli-en-direct_1561891_1496980.html#ens_id=1481986
NY Times, similar reports:
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/21/latest-updates-on-the-battle-for-tripoli/
The Associated Press reported that the rebels advancing from the west are now in Janzour, which is about 7 miles from the capital. The A.P. writes:
Euphoric Libyan rebels have pushed to the western outskirts of Tripoli without meeting any resistance after they overran a major military base that defends the capital.
Associated Press reporters with the rebels said they reached the Tripoli suburb of Janzour around nightfall Sunday. They were greeted by civilians lining the streets and waving rebel flags.
Libyan rebels say Gadhafi's son arrested
TRIPOLI, Libya (AP) - A Libyan rebel leader says Moammar Gadhafi's son and one-time heir apparent Seif al-Islam has been arrested.
Sidiq al-Kibir, the rebel leadership council's representative for the capital Tripoli, confirmed the arrest to The Associated Press on Sunday but did not give any further details.
THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.
TRIPOLI, Libya (AP) - Libyan rebels have entered the capital Tripoli and are within two miles of the city center.
Associated Press reporters with the rebels said they met little resistance Sunday as Moammar Gadhafi's defenders appeared to melt away.
LIVE: The BBC is saying the Rebels are over running the city... Tripoli is falling without much of a fight for now.
Gadhafi is done for.
RT:Rebels Capture Key Military Base Near Tripoli (and vid)
http://rt.com/news/tripoli-battle-libya-rebels-623/
"We have talked to rebels who want negotiations,' said Lamb, who is now in Tripoli. 'They don't want to kill their Libyan brothers and sisters. NATO has forbidden that. This is NATO's campaign. They need Gaddafi dead or out of the country, so that they can claim a victory. In a sense, NATO is using the rebels as pawns. And when this is over, depending on which way it plays out, I think there will be enormous infighting.."
Libya and the Need for a New World Order by Timothy Bancroft Hinchey
http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/20-08-2011/118806-libya_orde...
"It does not make sense to say let us wait for the end of the Libya conflict to discuss where we are and where we want to go - it makes great sense to discuss it right now, for the hearts and minds of the international community are seething with rage at what our planet has so obviously become...
The sinister clique of lobbyists who NATO serves as their armed wing, and who are our elected representatives, serve as the 'marketing department' and nothing more...So, this is not democracy, for our representatives do not represent our will and our world is not ruled from an egalitarian perspective...
It is more than apparent that our dearly beloved and elected leaders, as a whole, while there are exceptions, have failed us wholly and completely. Did you vote for NATO? Then why does it control your foreign policy?
Latest news from Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya in Tripoli:
"Tripoli has been the object of extensive bombings of residential areas, creating an atmosphere of panic. Meanwhile, rebel forces have entered into Tripoli and there is fighting in the downtown area. Rebel forces are not the decisive factor. The decisive factor is the extensive NATO bombings.
Rebels are few in number. One suspects that highly trained NATO Special Forces are operating covertly within rebel ranks.."
JTF2 anyone?
It's over. Gaddafi's guards have gone over to the freedom fighters' side, his son has been arrested.
"
Euphoric Libyan rebels moved into the capital Tripoli on Sunday and moved close to centre with little resistance as Moammar Gadhafi's defenders melted away. The opposition's leaders said Colonel Gadhafi's son and one-time heir apparent, Seif al-Islam, has been arrested.
A rebel leader said the unit in charge of protecting Col. Gadhafi and Tripoli had surrendered and joined the revolt, allowing the opposition force to move in freely."
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/africa-mideast/rebels-close-in...
On our way home from a friend, we saw a car drive by honking its horn with a crescent moon/star flag waving out the window. My partner said, "What do you think that's about?". I said it was probably the fall of Gadhafi. I'm thinking I was right.
Aug 20 - Libya Asks UN to Probe NATO 'Abuses'
http://af.reuters.com/article/libyaNews/idAFLDE77J04120110820
[Libyan Prime Minister] Mahmoudi asked for "a high level delegation..to visit Libya as soon as possible and look closely at NATO abuses and what is happening in Libya and discuss a solution between Libyans themselves without foreign interference,' JANA reported.."
Rebels have entered the Green Square in Tripoli. Huge celebrations in both Benghazi and Tripoli on al-Jazeera. It's not over, but the end is inevitable now. Libyans are bad ass.
Let's review:
- Benghazi and tens of thousands of freedom fighters have been saved from slaughter.
- One of the world's most oppressive dictators is gone from power forever.
- The US spent $1billion enforcing the no-fly zone, $3 per civilian.
- Civilian casualties from foreign bombs were minimal, despite what [sarcasm]hugely credible[/sarcasm] RussiaToday and globalresearch.com is saying.
- The Gaddafi regime might go on trail at the ICC.
It's tough for alot of people here to swallow (though I think the majority of people here are on my side), but history will show that this foreign intervention was not only worth it, but was executed very well in general.
WCG, it was definitely worth it.
WCG, it was definitely worth it.
Time will tell. Was it worth toppling Saddam Hussein or the Taliban Government? Again, time will tell and so will the witnesses of those who had to live with foreign bombings and firefights.
Al-Jazeera Live Stream Best news organization covering the Civil War by far.
Ding Dong the Witch is Dead! Maybe they can put Gadhafi in a cage and have the families of the people he murdered on the PanAm flight over Lockerbie to take turns pelting him with rotten fruit!
Time will tell. Was it worth toppling Saddam Hussein or the Taliban Government? Again, time will tell and so will the witnesses of those who had to live with foreign bombings and firefights.
Saddam and the Taliban were toppled almost entirely by a foreign intervention. In each case the toppling was about 90% US and 10% local dissidents. In Libya its the reverse - there was already a mass uprising against pig Gadhafi and the NATO bombing was very much a second supporting role. The credit for the fall of pig Gadhafi is about 95% Libyan dissidents and 5% the support they got from NATO. In the meantime, the world has one less fascist dictator - what's not to like?
New Report Puts Us On The Road to Finally Discovering Lockerbie Truth
http://lockerbiecase.blogspot.com/2011/08/new-report-may-put-us-on-road-...
"The most important questions are: first, if Megrahi's conviction for the bombing is unsound...who did carry out the atrocity?"
Al-Jazeera is based in a country where monarchs rule. As in, nobody votes for the brutal US-backed military dictatorhips in any of Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Bahrain etc. How much informing of the public occurs in any of those countries due to Al Jazeera's efforts, really? In fact, Qatar contributed military jets to an illegal blitzkrieg over Libya.
Let's Google it up for look.
Let me Google something for you
Al-Jazeera are the ones with reporters on the ground, I presume not in front of a green screen, and I don't think zombie Bin Laden is in charge of the rebel movement (though I don't think there's much doubt NATO was decisive in helping the wildly outgunned (not outmanned) rebels).
Qaddafi Plea: 'Save Libya', After Son Captured
http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/08/22/163423.html
"Embattled Libyan leader Muammar Qaddafi has made a second appeal for his people to 'save Tripoli' from a rebel offensive, in an audio message played on state television on Sunday. 'It is the obligation of all Libyans. It is a question of life or death,' he said.
Government spokesman Moussa Ibrahim said on state television that Colonel Qaddafi is ready for immediate negotiations with rebels seeking to oust him, and had asked NATO to convince the rebel forces to halt an attack on Tripoli.
Mr. Ibrahim added that 1,300 people had been killed in fighting in Tripoli on Sunday.."
RT: Shooting in Gaddafi's House Stops Live Interview (and vid)
'AL Qaeda leading NATO rebels in Tripoli' (Lizzie Phelan)
http://rt.com/news/tripoli-fights-rebels-shooting-546/ (and vid)
"This war is not about Colonel Gaddafi. Colonel Gaddafi is just a pretext for this war. This war has everything to do with stealing from the Libyan people. There is shock, there is fear, there is denial and there is resistance. And many of the defenders of Tripoli are children...According to Nazemroaya, international journalists are being targeted by the rebels and the NATO forces that support them. This is a NATO war. NATO bombs anything that moves..'
Al-Jazeera are the ones with reporters on the ground, I presume not in front of a green screen, and I don't think zombie Bin Laden is in charge of the rebel movement (though I don't think there's much doubt NATO was decisive in helping the wildly outgunned (not outmanned) rebels).
Elvis bin Laden was dead years ago.
As for the Libyan chapter of al-Qaeda, most of them fought for the CIA in 1980s and 90s Afghanistan same as bin Laden, and same goes for al-CIA'duh's current leader. Ayman Zawahiri used to schmooze with U.S. Special Forces Army officer Ali Mohamed. They did fundraisers together in Silicon Valley for years, and contributions went to al-CIA'duh black ops abroad. And interestingly enough, Ayman's brother ran an al-CIA'duh training camp in a U.S. protected zone of Kosovo in the late 1990s.
You know what they say, what comes around goes around.
Are the Saudi families as bad as qaddafi? How bad is he really? Relative to other dictators in the region?
... but history will show that this foreign intervention was not only worth it, but was executed very well in general.
So well in fact, that it looks like it's providing a blueprint for other Wars of Aggression, foreign intervention and regime change for Syria, Iran, North Korea and who knows where else.
Time To End NATO Crimes in Libya, - by Dennis Kucinich
http://www.pacificfreepress.com/news/1/9528-time-to-end-nato-crimes-in-l...
"...Regardless of whether Muammar Gaddafi is ousted in coming days, the war against Libya has seen countless violations of UN security council resolutions by NATO and UN member states. So much for the humanitarian-inspired UNSCR 1973 as a means to protect civilians...
The leading donor nations of NATO - the US, France and Great Britain - have been free to prosecute war under the cloak of this faceless, bureaucratic, alphabet security agency, now multinational war machine, which can violate UN resolutions and kill innocent civilians with impunity..
War crimes trials are for losers. The prospective conquerors, the Western powers and their rebel proxies, will then expect to be able to assert control over Libya's vast oil and national gas reserves..
How can we expect this grim manifesto of intervention to ever result in anything but tragedy? It's time to end the war against Libya.
Libyan Rebels Reach Tripoli's Green Square
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2011/08/21/libya.html
"Canada is hopeful that the end is near for the Gadhafi regime and that authority will soon transition to the National Transitional Council of Libya, the recognized governing body of Libya,' PMO spokesman Dimitri Soudas said in a statement.."
but curiously, again, no mention of NATO's Canadian butcher-boy, Lt Gen. Charles Bouchard.
NATO & their al-Qaeda Gladio allies terrorizing another oil-rich country.
Score a big one for TOTAL, Occidental, ConocoPhillips, and BP oil companies.
Democracy should really be referred to as Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power. - George
Seems like RT and company are doing allot of last minute whining about Kaddafi going down. These RT internet postings are behind the info curve as to what's happing in Tripoli. I'm been watching BBC live (till about an hour ago) and the government station is off the air, the minders have left the hotels where journalists stay and most all the government people have disappeared. Rebel groups and cheering crowds are everywhere.
WCG, it was definitely worth it.
Time will tell. Was it worth toppling Saddam Hussein or the Taliban Government? Again, time will tell and so will the witnesses of those who had to live with foreign bombings and firefights.
Time will tell to whom it was worth it.
"WAR is a crime."
No it's not, the very notion of crime is built on the foundation of institutional monopolized violence to begin with, from the classical epoch onward, getover the moralism already.
Chavez: 'Let's Pray for Libyan Civilians'
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/195103.html
"Today they dropped I do not know how many bombs,' he regretted. 'The aim of the US [Canada!] and its European allies, who participate in the operation, is to intervene and seize a country and its riches,' he added."
"...there is a second illusion to which the West has succumbed - the illusion to think that it is still possible to devastate a country and kill its people without legal consequences...In the case of Libya, the violations of international law are countless. NATO, as an organization, is legally responsible for the material and human damage of this war. The law leaves no room for doubt that the organization must pay...In a democracy no one can claim to be innocent of the crimes committed in its name..."
War Propaganda: Libya and the End of Western Illusions - by Thierry Meyssan
http://www.voltairenet.org/libya-and-the-end-of-Western
Lt. Gen Charles Bouchard, NATO's Canadian commander, and his accomplices in these warcrimes have much to answer for...
Press Conference, Moussa Ibrahim, August 21, 2011 (and video)
http://www.wat.tv/video/libya-press-conference-moussa-41fqd_31wod_.html
"We are saying out loud to the world that Tripoli has been turned into a hell-fire because of NATO's actions. We appeal to the heart of the world.."
RT: Ninety Percent of Tripoli Under Rebel Control - Celebrations in Green Square (and videos)
http://rt.com/news/tripoli-fights-rebels-shooting-546/
Interviews iwth Lizzie Phelan, Michael Parenti and Canadian journalist Mahdi Nazemroaya, who says:
'I feel that my life is in danger right now'. He told RT the situation on the ground is very dangerous and that his hotel is surrounded by rebel gunmen..'
Please help protect Canadian Mahdi Nazemroaya by contacting the Emergency operations Centre in Ottawa at 00-1-613-996-8885 or send an email to sos@international.gc.ca
NATO Slaugher in Tripoli: 'Operation Mermaid Dawn,' - by Thierry Meyssan (and video)
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=26118
"On Saturday evening, at 8 PM, when the hour of Iftar marked the breaking of the Ramadan fast, the NATO Command [under the leadership of Canadian Lt. General Charles Bouchard], launched its 'Operation Mermaid Dawn,' against Libya..."
NATO Backed Forces Move into Tripoli - by Patrick Martin
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/aug2011/liby-a22.shtml
"The imperialist-sponsored destruction of the Gaddafi regime sets the stage for an explosion of these underlying antagonisms, with horrific consequences for the people of Libya. There are ominous indications that a bloody settling of scores is in preparation in Tripoli.."
NATO Backed Forces Move into Tripoli - by Patrick Martin
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/aug2011/liby-a22.shtml
"The imperialist-sponsored destruction of the Gaddafi regime sets the stage for an explosion of these underlying antagonisms, with horrific consequences for the people of Libya. There are ominous indications that a bloody settling of scores is in preparation in Tripoli.."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UntOmjIx9Zg&feature=player_embedded
Ah yes, Jibril, another ex Gaddafi turncoat and the pointman for economic 'liberalization and privatization' - the perfect puppet to lead the West's new Libyan comprador regime. Unfortunately the rebels' atrocities against Blacks and Libyan army prisoners were videotaped by them as fond mementos and posted to youtube - they give us little hope for 'restraint and compassion' from this quarter. Our own General Bouchard hasn't shown any of that as NATO's mass murdering Canadian powder monkey either. Au contraire.
NATO Backed Forces Move into Tripoli - by Patrick Martin
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2011/aug2011/liby-a22.shtml
"The imperialist-sponsored destruction of the Gaddafi regime sets the stage for an explosion of these underlying antagonisms, with horrific consequences for the people of Libya. There are ominous indications that a bloody settling of scores is in preparation in Tripoli.."
NTC leader calls for restraint and compassion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UntOmjIx9Zg&feature=player_embedded
If we didn't have such wishy-washy moderation here, I'd complain about pro al-Qa'eda, pro NATO al-Jazeera newz reports nailed up on what used to be a progressive site.
Rebels have entered the Green Square in Tripoli. Huge celebrations in both Benghazi and Tripoli on al-Jazeera. It's not over, but the end is inevitable now. Libyans are bad ass.
Let's review:
- Benghazi and tens of thousands of freedom fighters have been saved from slaughter.
- One of the world's most oppressive dictators is gone from power forever.
- The US spent $1billion enforcing the no-fly zone, $3 per civilian.
- Civilian casualties from foreign bombs were minimal, despite what [sarcasm]hugely credible[/sarcasm] RussiaToday and globalresearch.com is saying.
- The Gaddafi regime might go on trail at the ICC.
It's tough for alot of people here to swallow (though I think the majority of people here are on my side), but history will show that this foreign intervention was not only worth it, but was executed very well in general.
Spot on!!!...On all accounts...
Especially the correctly aimed shots at RussiaToday and globalresearch.com...
I do find it disconcerting that Col. Mo looks to be headed for Tunisia...They should send him to Scotland along with that other murderous rat who was freed a few years ago...
NATO & their al-Qaeda Gladio allies terrorizing another oil-rich country.
Score a big one for TOTAL, Occidental, ConocoPhillips, and BP oil companies.
Democracy should really be referred to as Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power. - George
Still misquoting Mussolini and using the patented globalresearch.com phraseology,I see...
That's Globalresearch dot CA. It's CANADIAN, you eyedeeot. Go read some more imperialist POV in Jazeera or CNN why don't you.
That's Globalresearch dot CA. It's CANADIAN, you eyedeeot. Go read some more imperialist POV in Jazeera or CNN why don't you.
Home grown Tin Foil Hatters...
I suppose that makes them rrreeeeaaaallllyyyy credible,huh?
More credible than a pro NATO newz rag based out of Qatar, an oppressive country run by a US-backed imperialist dictatorship, for sure. But don't let that stop you. You're on a roll with your feeble smears of a real left wing site run by a Canadian economics professor and essays from the likes of Chomsky, McQuaig and, Oh yeah, and here's one from June authored by Murray Dobbin who sometimes has front page articles on rabble.ca. <- .CA indicates CANADIAN domain as opposed to a commercial dot com site, Benny.
Carry on.
South Africa in Talks for Gaddafi Refuge
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/195131.html
"South Africa has started negotiations with Libyan ruler Muammar Gaddafi's camp to offer him a place of refuge.."
latest headlines:
"Rebels overrun Libyan capital, population rejoices; Babble site the last holdout"
THe BIg Gaddafi - by Pepe Escobar
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MH20Ak01.html
"...He had always known why they came to pee on his carpet. Because he didn't hand the Brits, the Frogs or the Yanks the oil concessions they wanted. So now those unspeakable Saudi bastards started propping up these fanatic al-Qaeda-related types - just like they did in Afghanistan in the 1980s.
Western 'banksters' invented an 'alternative' Central Bank - with HSBC's help to rob Libya's money. They also invented a new, to be fully privatized, national oil company, managed by Qatar, to rob Libya's oil...
Blowback will come - and it will be a bitch."
Damien McElroy reporting for The Telegraph (Aug 22) says "British and French intelligence officers were said to have played a key role in planning the final rebel assault on Tripoli."
Libya: BBC Reporter Ambushed by Gaddafi Forces (vid)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-14613653
"heavy fighting has continued in the Libyan capital.."
close but no cigar
Damien McElroy reporting for The Telegraph (Aug 22) says "British and French intelligence officers were said to have played a key role in planning the final rebel assault on Tripoli."
excellent; for once they are doing something entirely justifiable ...
'Libya Likely to Become Next Iraq' - Interview with Jeff Steinberg, Executive Intelligence Review (vid)
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/195137.html
"...it is not the result of the outcome of an internal civil-war; it's the result of a NATO-directed invasion and overthrow of a regime and installation of a government that may or may not have a real prospect of survival. What we don't know and what is going to play out in the months ahead is whether or not forces loyal to Gaddafi have decided to go into asymmetric resistance mode.."
'Libya Likely to Become Next Iraq' -- that sounds like the least qualified prediction in quite a while;
the Libyan people are thrilled at the outcome, may peace and prosperity reign ...
Phase I of the war looks nearly over.
Will their be a Phase II?
Despite the euphoria, the rebels are divided
By Patrick Cockburn
Monday August 22 2011
....
The Transitional National Council (TNC) in Benghazi is now recognised by more than 30 foreign governments, including the US and Britain, as the government of Libya. But it is by no means clear that it is recognised as such by the rebel militiamen who are in the process of seizing the capital. The rebel fighters in Misrata, who fought so long to defend their city, say privately that they have no intention of obeying orders from the TNC. Their intransigence may not last but it is one sign that the insurgents are deeply divided.
...If Nato put the rebels into power will it continue to have a predominant role on what happens next in Libya? It is worth recalling that Saddam Hussein was unpopular with most Iraqis when he fell in 2003 as were the Taliban in Afghanistan in 2001. But in neither case did this mean that there was an opposition which had the support to replace them. In both countries wars thought to be over burst into flame again. Foreign allies were seen as foreign occupiers....
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/africa/despite-the-euphoria-the-reb...
latest headlines:
"Rebels overrun Libyan capital, population rejoices; Babble site the last holdout"
On a serious note there are areas of Tripoli that are still under regime control and there still is fighting going on. Some of the hold out areas is ringed by tanks and other armor.
Some even speculate this could be a trap to draw the rebels in to the city were NATO can't bomb their positions as easily... but I kind 'a doubt it. It seems most people in Tripoli are happy he's gone. It's still too early to say this is the end but we are in the end phase.
The bottom line is unless Kaddafi's guys pull some amazing hat trick counter attack worthy of being required reading for future generations of up and coming officers he's pretty much fucked.
"WAR is a crime."
No it's not, the very notion of crime is built on the foundation of institutional monopolized violence to begin with, from the classical epoch onward, getover the moralism already.
That's what people like Niccolo Machiavelli, Benito Mussolini, Hiro Hito, Adolf Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, Pol Pot and yourself believe.
But that's not the actual state of things according to the universal legal and moral principles established at the Nuremberg Trials and by the Nuremberg Principles, The U.N Charter, the Geneva Conventions and all related international and national laws.
War and murder cannot be a universal moral principle because it would lead to a contradiction: If it was morally and legally acceptable/praiseworthy for everyone to commit murder and wage war, then everyone would be dead.
If it was morally and legally acceptable/praiseworthy for everyone to commit murder and wage war, then everyone would be dead.
No only the weak and pooly armed would be dead...
CNN reported last night that NATO had conducted something like 17,600 bombing sorties against Libya and some partners were running out of ammo.
ETA: Link
[Updated at 6:03 a.m. ET, 12:03 p.m. in Libya] Since NATO began operations in Libya on March 31, it has conducted a total of 19,877 sorties, including 7,505 strike sorties. NATO is operating under a U.N. Security Council resolution authorizing the use of force to protect Libyan civilians.
No only the weak and pooly armed would be dead...
Are you sure?
The Vietnamese and Afghans seem to be the rule to the exception.
Oh for goodness sake, a critique of the concept of crime or enclosed institutional normative ideas of cohesian does not entail an affinity with death and destruction. All those legal codes of yours are products of institutinal violence grounded in civilization, what part of this do you not understand.
Universal and moral principles do not exist.
Oh for goodness sake, a critique of the concept of crime or enclosed institutional normative ideas of cohesian does not entail an affinity with death and destruction. All those legal codes of yours are products of institutinal violence grounded in civilization, what part of this do you not understand.
Universal and moral principles do not exist.
When we stop playing with our plastic army men, watching Hollywood war porn movies, reading SGT. Rock comix and stop playing computer war games,
we realize that war and the weapons used to wage war are too advanced that if we don't at least attempt to put a lid on it, we are soon going to 'war' ourselves to extinction.
"Universal and moral principles do not exist" is the rallying cry of the arms industry and those who profit from it.
Gaddafi Forces in Tripoli Counter-Offensive
http://rt.com/news/rebels-gaddafi-capital-tripoli-975/
"There's a feeling the government is luring the rebels in alloweing them to have fun in Green Square and then very well counter-attacking ghem.', Dr Lamb told RT, adding that it looks like the end is near. The situation in Tripoli is chaotic, with few precise details emerging.."
this evil war against the Libyan people to steal their resources and impose upon them yet another Western criminal, comprador regime.
The intentions and illegal, criminal actions of the western powers should be condemned, but this is mainly an war against a crazy dictator who ruled with iron fist for 40 years. Don't fall into the trap of glorifying a mad fascist like Ghadhafi for that purpose. There are evil on both sides.
Live from Tripoli: by Mahdi Darius Nazemroaya (and vid)
Western Media Complicit in NATO's Humanitarian Bloodbath
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=26121
Canadian journalist trapped in deserted hotel in Tripoli
Libya, along with Iran and Venezuela, are the three countries within OPEC who represent national interests over the demands of the industrialized world and the hegemonic powers. The elimination of Qaddafi is part of the scheme to de-claw OPEC.
As far as Iran is concerned, the above statement is the most ridiculous joke I have heard. Libya too put his oil in the hands ofmultinational companies a few years ago.
No one should have the gall to cheer the fall of Tripoli and the destruction of archaelogical sites and the dismantling of a modern socialist state. These would presumably be the same people who cheered for the destruction of Yugoslavia, first through the secession of Croatia and the attack on Serbs, then the criminal bombing of Belgrade and then through the support of the criminals of the KLA for the secession of Kosovo.
Where are the moderators of these threads?
If they were around, you would have been banned for advocating support for war criminal serb nationalists and against the non-serb people of former Yugoslavia. But hey, who cares about the muslims and Croats, right? I bet you were having a nice drink and cheering when they were being raped and slaughtered by your favourite side. Disgusting racist.
The imperialist war-mongers cheering on this butchery are every bit as despicable as the people who condoned the invasion of Iraq.
Comment from Greenwald's blog --
Here's who NATO has recognized as the "government" of Libya:
----------------------------
...The regime with which NATO intends to replace Gaddafi has the most right-wing, reactionary character. The TNC [my note: the rebel force] has drawn up a 14-page “constitutional declaration” in Benghazi, which was shown to AFP. It lays out the foundation for a right-wing Islamist government in Libya. It states, “Libya is a democratic and independent state. The people are the source of authority, Tripoli is the capital, Islam is the religion, and Islamic sharia [traditional law] is the principal source of legislation.”
[My note: This document also gives partial control over Libya to the UAE; we are watching the colonization of a country.]
The document was reportedly written by Islamic activist Mohammed Busidra, who granted an interview to Canada’s Globe and Mail daily on August 5. The paper reported that Busidra is “organizing Libya’s mosques into a political machine. This has made him, in the view of many people here, the figure who will wield the most political power, and likely control the country’s leadership, in the event of the dictator’s demise.”
Busidra presented his vision for an Islamic fundamentalist and pro-imperialist puppet state in Libya. He assured the Globe and Mail that he would “remain favorable toward the West and its governments and oil companies.” The inescapable conclusion is that Libya’s 42 billion barrels of oil will be de-nationalized and seized by Western oil firms.
Busidra also insisted that alcohol and homosexuality should become strictly illegal in Libya, as well as “the praise of any religion other than Islam.” [My note: I have no information on Ghaddafi's attitude toward the gay community. Alcohol has been illegal for decades, from what I can find.]
The Globe and Mail explained, “Mr. Busidra’s network is formidable: it includes the long-banned Muslim Brotherhood; the February 17 Martyrs’ Brigade, which is the largest fighting force among the rebel armies and is led by the influential cleric Ismail Al-Sallabi; the even more popular cleric, Mr. Sallabi’s Doha [Qatar]-based brother SheikhAli Sallabi; and a half-dozen other imams and leaders well known in Libya, including more moderate former members of the long-banned Libyan Islamic Fighting Group. Mr. Busidra’s circle is opposed to the extreme Islam of Al Qaeda and other radical groups.”
The distinction the Globe and Mail makes between members of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group (LIFG) and Al Qaeda is largely imaginary, however. The LIFG was founded by Libyan veterans of the 1980s Soviet-Afghan war, and thus shares historic ties with Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda grew out of the Maktab Al Khidamat, the group that oversaw international recruitment, funding, and re-supply of Muslim volunteers for this war....
http://tinyurl.com/4xsaqpx
--------------------------------
So we are giving the Libyans "democracy" by turning their country into a client state/colony run by an offshoot of al Qaeda. And along the way, de-nationalizing their bank and oil industry. We also are killing civilians by the dozens, targeting their television and other communication centers, water supply routes, hospitals and houses of worship, and dumping depleted uranium all over the country - not that the US media is covering any of this.
—teri49
--
Again -- He assured the Globe and Mail that he would “remain favorable toward the West and its governments and oil companies.”
I think we can now put to rest the idea that Al-Qaeda is anything but a US-backed entity. Radical Islamist movements have almost invariably been funded, organized and armed by the US and Israel as a bulwark against secular nationalism. When such groups become legitimately independent, as in the case of Hezbollah, they are cut loose; otherwise they remain on the empire's payroll. There are more than 1 billion Muslims on the planet; only a tiny, tiny minority are actually interested in creating Islamist states; yet this minority is given extraordinary influence by the empire. Anything is better than socialist or just plain nationalist states. Great boogeyman to frighten God-fearing Murikans, too.
Another good comment, this from commondreams --
This was about eliminating yet another independent agent in OPEC (Saddam and Gaddafi down; Iran and Venezuela next), about revenge for Gaddafi getting rid of US and NATO presence, for his nationalization of oil and industry, for his refusal (until he was forced to cave in) to adopt the full neoliberal agenda for decades, for his earlier support of Palestine, for his recent leadership seeking to forge African unity in the face of AFRICOM and European countries determined to keep up the proxy wars of attrition and to control resouces. It's about the strategic value of Libya, with its borders on important Maghreb countries and on sub-Saharan countries like Niger with their abundant resources (including uranium, coltan,etc.).
It's about testing a new generation of weapons and fighter planes so India and other potential buyers can see them in action. It's about Canada (here I want to spit in rage) wanting to be like the Big Boys and become a major military force. (A Canadian general has proudly assumed the role of butcher-in-chief for the bombings of Libya, probably with D.U. - the gift that keeps on giving.)
It's about Al Qaeda fighters thirsty for the blood of their former oppressor Gaddafi and for other "infidels", now being accepted as freedom fighters (Afghanistan 1980 redux) and given free-fire support by NATO.
It's about the revenge sought by the tribe of King Ydris, whom Gaddafi deposed in 1969.
It's about privatizing the resources, the infrastructure, health care and education (all free and universal under Gaddafi).
Whatever legitimacy there may be among the rebels must be weighed against the motivation of NATO and of the Islamic extremists, and against the plan to defang OPEC and to stop genuine nationalist movements and any form of socialism-- from Yugoslavia's under Milosevic to Iraq's under Saddam to Libya's..
Anyone who cheers this so-called liberation now will have a rude awakening in the not so distant future.
So who's the next bowling pin in New World Order lanes?
Reply to Sanizadeh - No. 82.
I am a racist - the way most people are racists. I try to recognize my racism whenever it surfaces and correct my attitudes and my conduct.
In the case of Yugoslavia, however, I think my critique was mistakenly construed as racist.
I was horrified by the atrocities committed during the war of secession -which included Croatia, then Bosnia, then Kosovo- and I have always condemned the use of rape as a tactic of war. The killing of men and boys, whether they were combatants or not, was beyond the pale, and I will not accept the accusation that somehow I supported this and other war crimes just because I happen to believe that the west went to war against Milosevic because he would not turn what was left of Yugoslavia over to them but hung on, rather, to whatever principles of socialism he could.
The barbaric ethnic aspect of the conflict was a long-simmering internal problem. The west (NATO, the US) used it as a convenient rationale for their own economic agenda they sought to further in the region by further balkanizing Yugoslavia.
Consider:
1) Croatia seceded with the support and encouragement of Germany and other western powers. The Croats expelled over 100,000 Serbs from Croatia and then from Croatian-controlled areas of Bosnia. The Bosnian Serbs responded by activating their own militias and seeking to break away the region of Bosnia where they were in the majority or had political and military control, and join what was left of Yugoslavia - - dominated by Serbia at that point.
2) The ethnic atrocities were pretty much the age-old conflicts surfacing with a literal vengeance. The Serbs rightly saw the Croats as historical enemies for what they had done to them in WW II - probably as many Serbs as Jews and Roma were tortured and murdered by Croats. The Muslims in WW II ended up siding with the Croats - one could say for self-preservation, but they were historical enemies of the Serbs from the times of the Ottoman Empire, when Christians were forced to convert to Islam in territory conquered by the Turks. Kosovo is a remnant of that conflict - Serbia would not let it secede because it was emblematic of the Serbian victory over the Turks. The fact that the minority Serbs oppressed the majority Muslims in Kosovo is not to be condoned, but when western powers (Canada among them) blitzed civilian targets in Belgrade it was to aid the KLA, a nationalist muslim army made up largely of gangs of thugs. They now control Kosovo and Kosovo has become a living hell for the Christians who remained, and it has been a transshipment point for drugs and women forced into prostitution.
3) There were no major trials of Croatian war criminals after WW II mainly because most if not all the worst offenders were given refuge in western countries, including Canada, the U.S., Chile, Argentina and Bolivia. Many of the perpetrators were fascists but they were received as anti-communist heroes. Through the fifties and sixties they conspired to undermine Tito's Yugoslavia, going as far as to plot the bombing of civilian airlines, much as the Cuban exile extremists did with the Cubana flight off Barbados and the Canadian-based opponents of the Indian regime did with the Air India flight. Once Tito died they worked actively for the secession of Croatia. The first president of the new state was an out-and-out fascist sympathizer who tried to turn the memorial site of the Jasenovac concentration camp into a simple state park.
4) During the Bosnian conflict, internationalists trained in Afghanistan transferred to fight alongside the Muslim militias against not the Croats but the Serbs. There is a possibility that the horrendous attack on the centre of Sarajevo from the hills, which was officially attributed to the Serbs, was actually carried out by Muslim militias. That has not been disproven - just ignored.
I reject the stupid accusation that somehow I am an anti-Muslim racist because I am aware of the historical roots of the ethnic enmities, and aware also that NATO does not carry out "humanitarian interventions" to save or protect anyone. Libya is very reminiscent of Yugoslavia in that the war crimes committed by NATO are once again being swept under the carpet; that the leader --cornered through years of sanctions, hostility and threats from real internal enemies-- is demonized as the one dictator in the world who merits a full-blown attack; that the "liberation forces" include gangs of thugs, extremist fundamentalists trained as internationalists in Afghanistan against the USSR and then against the US, groups with long-standing historical grudges and a thirst for revenge, and nationals who resided for years abroad and came back as "democratic leaders" but with suspicious ties to US or other intelligence services.
If this rationale makes me a racist then congratulations for having added an original --if fanciful and irrational-- contribution to the English language.
this evil war against the Libyan people to steal their resources and impose upon them yet another Western criminal, comprador regime.
The intentions and illegal, criminal actions of the western powers should be condemned, but this is mainly an war against a crazy dictator who ruled with iron fist for 40 years. Don't fall into the trap of glorifying a mad fascist like Ghadhafi for that purpose. There are evil on both sides.
good point;
surely one can say Western policy in Iraq was crazy, yet entirely correct in Libya. Straight lines bend stretching across the globe....
Sigh. No, the attack on Libya was not 'entirely correct' DaveW. Qaddafi was a dictator. He wasn't however a 'maddog' as he was suddenly described by the always war hungry mass media. He was in fact better, in most tangeable terms, than most of the US friendly dictatorships the war hungry media quietly ignores or even supports, push comes to shove. (ie: Bahrain, Algeria, Kuwait, Thailand, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Honduras, Dominican Rep, South Korea, China, Hungary, etc) The attack violated its own mandate when the first bomb fell on the first Libyan tank. Therefore it's reasonable to assume that the 'liberators' will extract a high price from the Libyan people. Higher probably than Qaddafi did. After what they/we have done in Iraq and Afghanistan that is unfortunately the most likley result. My Marxist half brothers are correct on this one point, the United States and its 'satraps' are the greatest threat to world peace and equality right now. The Russian empire fell, so too must the American one.
(I did support the NATO intervention in the former former 'republic' of Yugoslavia, and wish the UN had intervened sooner in Rwanda and Sudan -the UN not NATO. I make no apologies for that)
On CNN right now: one of the American oil companies (Marathon) forced out of Libya by Gaddafi is in talks with the NTC to return and get their oil production back up and running.
Doesn't take long does it?
No only the weak and pooly armed would be dead...
Are you sure?
The Vietnamese and Afghans seem to be the rule to the exception.
Positive, the North Vietnamese Army (whom really won the war) and the Taliban are both not weak and are both heavily armed...
Another good comment, this from commondreams --
...
It's about testing a new generation of weapons and fighter planes so India and other potential buyers can see them in action. It's about Canada (here I want to spit in rage) wanting to be like the Big Boys and become a major military force. (A Canadian general has proudly assumed the role of butcher-in-chief for the bombings of Libya, probably with D.U. - the gift that keeps on giving.)
It's about Al Qaeda fighters thirsty for the blood of their former oppressor Gaddafi and for other "infidels", now being accepted as freedom fighters (Afghanistan 1980 redux) and given free-fire support by NATO.
It's about the revenge sought by the tribe of King Ydris, whom Gaddafi deposed in 1969.
It's about privatizing the resources, the infrastructure, health care and education (all free and universal under Gaddafi).
Whatever legitimacy there may be among the rebels must be weighed against the motivation of NATO and of the Islamic extremists, and against the plan to defang OPEC and to stop genuine nationalist movements and any form of socialism-- from Yugoslavia's under Milosevic to Iraq's under Saddam to Libya's..
Anyone who cheers this so-called liberation now will have a rude awakening in the not so distant future.
Exactly! Bang on!
Except for the part about Milosevic. I am not so sure he was a socialist so much as he was a nationalist. And he was on side with the IMF and neoliberal ideologues by the 1990s while a ruinous economic ideology devastated the former Yugoslavia and created animosity along ethnic divisions and people who normally got along well with one another in the former Yugoslavia. Neoliberalism is about destroying labour rights and labour in general within economies and making whole countries subserviant to and reliant on foreign creditors and the western banking cabal.
But bang on about NATO and Qaeda rebels. Qaeda were allied with NATO countries against the former Yugoslavia. Like European Muslims were, Balkan Muslims were moderately religious before the NATO gang created a militant Islamic base in civil war time Bosnia, Macedonia etc.
So who's the next bowling pin in New World Order lanes?
Syria
with the old new one still Iran.
Positive, the North Vietnamese Army (whom really won the war) and the Taliban are both not weak and are both heavily armed...
Don't make me laugh.
The Vietnamese were armed with the same weapons the Afghan insurgents are armed with and (are) fought/fighting against the same enemy: the U.S. and modern countries with the strongest militaries in the world.
The mainstay weapons of the Vietnamese were AK-47s, grenades, GPMGs (general purpose machine guns), RPGs and improvized (boobytrap) weapons. The mainstay weapons of the Afghan insurgents are AK-47s, grenades, GPMGs, RPGs and Improvized Explosive Devices (IEDs.)
Ever heard of asymetric warfare - well, the asymitry is tipped in our favor.
Yet here we have the spectacle of advanced industrial countries using modern advanced weapons against 'backwards' pre-industrial countries (Vietnam and Afghanistan) using primitive and much less advanced weapons and tactics - and losing.
Since we lost in Vietnam and are losing in Afghanistan,
I guess you would have to use the pretzel logic that it therefore follows that Vietnam was and Afghanistan is necessarily "not weak and heavily armed."
Their morale was/is definitely better than ours and, unlike us, they were/are convinced of the certainty of victory.
And that makes all the difference.
Gaddafi Son Makes Surprise Appearance in Tripoli (and vid)
http://rt.com/news/gaddafi-sons-rebels-detain-557/
"One of Gaddafi's sons, Seif al Islam, who was earlier reported to have been arrested, made a surprise appearance in Tripoli. He appeared in a convoy of armoured Land Cruisers. Fox News spoke with Seif Gaddafi who said that his father and several of his sisters are indeed alive as well, and that he is still in Tripoli.
'Yes, he is in Tripoli, he is alive and well and we are winning,' he said. 'The rebels have been lured into a trap and we will crush them.'
Journalist and anti-war activist Susan Lindauer claims that the people of Libya are 'furiously angry' at NATO and are blaming the rebels for destroying the country's infrastructure.."
'Western Countries Fighting for Libya's Oil Fields like Piranhas' (and vid)
http://rt.com/news/west-oil-fields-libya-657/
"William Engdahl says NATO's actions in Libya have created a very virulent precedent. Engdahl said it is simply an insugency being supported covertly by US-financed arms shipments to the rebels - in order, he claimed, 'to simply carve up the oil fields and get them into Western hands, rather than in Libya state hands, which Gaddafi held firmly on to.."
as this thread will close soon for length, I guess we can all just make it unanimous:
congratulations to the brave Libyan people for overthrowing an insane decades-old dictator and may peace, prosperity and national unity follow your revolution, also next door in Tunisia, the spark for this Arab spring and summer
NATO's Covert Hand Crucial in Rebel Advance on Tripoli (and vid)
http://rt.com/news/nato-help-rebel-tripoli-523/
"If you ask a direct question, whether NATO takes part in the ground operation, or whether major Western forces have taken part in storming Libyan cities, the answer you will get is of course 'no', which is no surprise, Mr Rogozin said. 'They'll nver confirm what is becoming evident to everyone else..."
Rebels Might Redraw Libya's Oil Contracts (and vid)
http://rt.com/news/oil-contracts-libya-russia-645/
"Pierre Guerlain, a professor of political science at the University of Paris, Nanterre, says that no matter who ends up running Libya, the West will get the country's oil."
as this thread will close soon for length, I guess we can all just make it unanimous:
congratulations to the brave Libyan people for overthrowing an insane decades-old dictator and may peace, prosperity and national unity follow your revolution, also next door in Tunisia, the spark for this Arab spring and summer
So when will al-Qa'eda and their NATO pals be overthrowing corrupt imperialists and NATO-backed military dictatorships in Egypt, Tunisia, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait etc?
Here's a tip: don't hold your breath.
Where Qadaffi went wrong was agreeing to release from prison the CIA's and MI6ers Qaeda gladios linked to LIFG as well as LIFG terrorists supported by the "democratic west." Those released from Libyan jails were not reformed nor did they renounce terrorism as part of the deal. The CIA and Brits moved right in and began funding and arming Islamic militants like they did in so many other countries since Afghanistan and Pakistan, former Yugoslavia etc. Terrorists R U.S. gang again.
al-Qa'eda = al-CIA'duh and vice versa
... and also a rousing cheer from Fidel to the dearly departed Mr. Ghadaffi ...
And apparently we can count DaveW's approval a rousing cheer for NATO terrorists and their best friends forever, al-Qa'eda. Terrorist dregs of the world united, once again.
NATO SLAUGHTER IN TRIPOLI: "Operation Mermaid Dawn" Signals Assault by Rebels' Al Qaeda Death Squads
The Sirens were the loudspeakers of the mosques, which were used to launch Al Qaeda's call to revolt against the Qaddafi government. Immediately the sleeper cells of the Benghazi rebels went into action. These were small groups with great mobility, which carried out multiple attacks. The overnight fighting caused 350 deaths and 3,000 wounded.
The situation calmed somewhat on Sunday during the course of the day.
Then, a NATO warship sailed up and anchored just off the shore at Tripoli, delivering heavy weapons and debarking Al Qaeda jihadi forces, which were led by NATO officers.
Fighting stared again during the night. There were intense firefights. NATO drones and aircraft kept bombing in all directions. NATO helicopters strafed civilians in the streets with machine guns to open the way for the jihadis.
Positive, the North Vietnamese Army (whom really won the war) and the Taliban are both not weak and are both heavily armed...
Don't make me laugh.
Well that's your opinion, I'll stand by my mine; the North Vietnamese Army (not the Viet Cong) and to an extent the Taliban are both excellent light infantry forces, well armed and certainly not weak, with the NVA being a national standing army; the Taliban less so. To be honest I find your marginalizing of the NVA a bit insulting to this excellent army.
Libya rebels close in on Gaddafi compound
This could be the start of the fight for the "Reichstag" of Col Kaddafi...
Three questions on Libya
Al Jazeera's chief political analyst interprets what the fall of Tripoli means for Libya, the Arab Spring and the West.
excerpt:
First and foremost Western leaders need to wipe that smug look from their faces and make sure not to gloat about doing the Arabs any favours.
Certainly the NATO aerial bombardment did help, but this was a revolutionaries' victory par excellence. The battle was won first and foremost in the hearts of the Libyans, just as with the Egyptians and Tunisians before them.
Besides, after decades of complicity with Arab dictators, Western powers have much to make up for: They inserted themselves in the Libyan revolution after Gaddafi made genocidal threats against his people, but their interference was not necessarily motivated by humanitarian ends, rather more of the same geopolitics that led to befriending Gaddafi, Ben Ali and Mubarak in the first place.
Pepe Escobar: 'Libya Is Iraq 2.0' (and vid)
http://rt.com/usa/news/pepe-escobar-libya-iraq-132/
"People have such short memories,' says Escobar. 'This reminds me of the Coalition provisional authority in Iraq in 2003. This is the same thing. We're going to have western boots on the ground and we're going to open up Libya for hardcore, no holds barred, terrible capitalism,' adds Escobar. 'This is completely crazy.'
Escobar says that forces began 'killing everyone in sight and hitting everything in sight over the weekend, but that the journalists with the mainstream media are holed up in hotel rooms safe from harm. According to Escobar, all the mainstream media is doing is perpetuating the 'cover-story' that they've created for Americans to eat up. From there, he says, they'll eat whatever they're fed."
RT: British Brains, Brawn and Bombs Bolster Libyan Rebels (and vid)
http://rt.com/news/british-train-libyan-rebels-975-70939/
"The assault on the Libyan capital has been nurtured, orchestrated and coordinated by former and serving British intelligence officers. Questions now emerge as to how many of them have been KIA on the streets of Tripoli and if Gadhafi's troops will be capable of presenting living proof of the UK plotting a military coup in a sovereign state.."
Street Fighting Resumes in Tripoli
http://rt.com/news/street-fighting-rebels-gaddafi-951/
"Even fiercer street fighting between rebels and fighters loyal to Muammar Gaddafi has erupted on the streets of Tripoli. But NATO said on Tuesday it does not know where Gaddafi is. The bloc also played down the Libyan leader's importance in the conflict in the North African country, saying 'he is not a key player anymore.' Moreover, Gaddafi's leaving the country will not interrupt NATO's operations in the country, as the bloc's mission is to protect civilians, added Roland Lavoie, NATO's spokesman."
Pepe Escobar: 'Libya Is Iraq 2.0' (and vid)
http://rt.com/usa/news/pepe-escobar-libya-iraq-132/
"People have such short memories,' says Escobar. 'This reminds me of the Coalition provisional authority in Iraq in 2003. This is the same thing. We're going to have western boots on the ground and we're going to open up Libya for hardcore, no holds barred, terrible capitalism,' adds Escobar. 'This is completely crazy.'
Umm, Escobar's memory seems even shorter:
1/ in 2003 there 100s of thousands of foreign troops in iraq; in Libya there are virtually zero
2/ in Libya indigenous forces took the initiative to overthrow their dicatator, but as recently as March 19th would have lost the whole show if tank columns heading to Benghazi had not been stopped from the air; they recognize the help, while running their own rebellion
3/ Libya under Ghaddaffi opened itself almost a decade ago to foreign oil companies' investments, and its technical infrastructure is basically undamaged, unlike Iraq; no big change there, and large new State revenues coming on line
4/ in short, Libya 2011 in way way better condition than Iraq 2003.
To say that the thousands of NATO air strikes "helped" the anti-Gaddaffi groups is to make the word "understatement" an understatement.
Some winners are indisputable, whether the victors will includes the "The Libyan People" will only become clearer in the weeks and months to come:
Oil corporations from various countries have business interests in Libya
by John Glaser, August 22, 2011
...
Years before the outbreak of conflict in Libya this year, a tug of war between American, Russian and Italian oil corporations was taking place, according to secret diplomatic cables released by WikiLeaks. A deal between the Italian oil company, Eni, and the Russian oil company, Gazprom, was on the radar of the Americans who plotted to foil it, signaling the major interests various world players had in Libyan oil....
International companies for years had reportedly had trouble with doing business with Gadhafi. According to WikiLeaks diplomatic cables, the Libyan leader demanded tough contract terms, sought large bonus payments up front, and was upset that he was not getting more U.S. government respect and recognition for earlier concessions. According to some WikiLeaks cables, he pressured the oil companies to influence U.S. policies....
http://news.antiwar.com/2011/08/22/international-oil-companies-eager-to-...
Libya's future far from guaranteed
Paul Mcgeough [Australia]: Sunday Daily Herald
August 23, 2011
....
In a part of the world in which power brokers have mastered the art of telling the West what it wants to hear while getting on with their local agendas, it remains to be seen if signs of what has been read as evidence of common sense, democratic instinct, idealism and decency are to be deployed on behalf of all Libyans - or competing tribal blocks relishing a first opportunity in decades to test their relative strength....
And what do the rebels inherit after 40-plus years of Gaddafi's iron fist? A shell of a country bereft of credible institutions and any sense of a civil society. And the transition plans devised by the council to quiet international anxiety? "Hogwash," says a foreign diplomat now in Libya.
NATO said last night it was ready to help build the new Libya - "a state based on freedom, not fear; democracy, not dictatorship; the will of the many, not the whims of the few."...
Hmmm. NATO, the democracy "builder"-- that should be interesting.
Ground military, and the world's finest oil industry profiteers to the rescue?
Closing for length. Continue here.