Malaysian plane crash part 2

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NDPP

MH17 - Dutch Prepare Missile Attack On Moscow  -  by John Helmer

http://johnhelmer.net/?p=14084#more-14084

"The Dutch government has decided to launch a missile attack on Moscow in October. By suppressing all evidence obtained from the bodies of victims of the crash of Malaysian Airlines MH17, officials of the Dutch Safety Board and associated Dutch military officers, police and prosecutors are preparing to release a report on the crash with a gaping hole in its veracity..."

Noops

It seems to me that stalling tactics have once again been employed deliberately in this investigation.

The longer you delay, the greater the number of people who forget and/or become disinterested.

Really, how long does it take to determine if any of the victims had any metal in their bodies and if so, where the metal came from?

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Really, how long does it take to determine if any of the victims had any metal in their bodies and if so, where the metal came from?

Victims??

What victims, Noops?  Did you see video of any of them dying?

Noops

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Really, how long does it take to determine if any of the victims had any metal in their bodies and if so, where the metal came from?

Victims??

What victims, Noops?  Did you see video of any of them dying?

Come clean Magoo.

Do you believe it was a hoax or are you still mad at me for my post about the Virginia shooting?

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

I don't believe that all that many things are a hoax -- this included -- but you have your own standards of proof.  Don't abandon them now.

Noops

Mr. Magoo wrote:

I don't believe that all that many things are a hoax -- this included -- but you have your own standards of proof.  Don't abandon them now.

I promise you I won't abandon them.

NDPP

John Helmer: MH17 - Inadmissible Evidence

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2015/09/john-helmer-mh17-inadmissible-evi...

"Helmer continues with his discussion of the considerable gaps in the information regarding the MH17 crash, and how some of the evidence is missing by virtue of being withheld from the public, as opposed to not available. One of the most important types that is largely absent is evidence from the bodies of passengers..."

NDPP

Moscow Asks UN Aviation Agency To Intervene Into MH17 Probe - Report

https://www.rt.com/news/318316-russia-mh17-probe-letter-icao/

"Russia has appealed to the head of the UN Aviation agency to intervene in the investigation into the MH17 crash in Ukraine to prevent the Dutch expats in charge from ignoring the findings of their Russian counterparts, according to a new media report.

The letter, received by the ICAO on September 16, states that the DSB ignored, 'comprehensive information' provided by the Russian side and relating to the downing of the Boeing 777 over war-torn Eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014, the media report said.

In the letter, Oleg Storchevoy, the Deputy Chief of Russia's Federal Air Transport Authority said that in conducting its investigation, the DSB had violated the principle of 'sequence of conclusions',one of the most fundamental rules when conducting probes into air crashes.

He stated that the DSB steered the investigation to prove that the aircraft was destroyed by a BUK missile launched from a certain location. 'This is before any research into the characteristics of the warhead which brought down the plane was done.

The basic data and methods of identifying where the missile was fired from were also not explained by the DSB', the letter said, as quoted by the New Straits Times.

The DBS earlier announced that it would release the long-awaited final report on Oct 13 this year."

NDPP

What We Know On The Eve of Release of the Dutch Safey Board Report  on MH17

http://newcoldwar.org/what-we-know-on-the-eve-of-release-of-dutch-safety...

"On Tuesday, the Dutch Safety Board will release its final report on the fate of MH17. Ahead of the report's publication we take a look at the key facts, theories and false trails surrounding the investigation..."

NDPP

MH17 Shot Down With BUK Missile, Ukraine Failed To Close Airspace - Report (and vid)

https://www.rt.com/news/318536-mh17-investigation-dutch-report/

"The MH17 investigation will not be completed in 2015, the Dutch Safety board said."

 

Dutch Safety Board, BUK Missile-Maker Almaz-Antey Release Reports on MH17 Crash (Live Updates)

https://www.rt.com/news/318457-mh17-report-plane-crash/

 

NDPP

RIP Andrei Anghel

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2014/07/18/canadian_killed_in_mh17_crash...

Andrei Anghel, 24, was the only Canadian aboard MH17

NDPP

CrossTalk: MH17 Report [MUST WATCH!]

https://youtu.be/HrfFL88TMGM

"Will we ever learn the 'who' and 'why' parts of the tragedy?

John Laughland, Dymtry Babich, Alexander Mercouris

Doug Woodard

MH-17 report suggests efforts were made to cover up causes of disaster:

http://gu.com/p/4d99p/sbl

 

NDPP

Video: Ukraine Army Footage Shows BUK System in ATO Area Prior To MH17 Crash (and vid)

http://off-guardian.org/2015/10/13/video-ukraine-army-footage-shows-buk-...

"Video posted on July 5, 2014, 12 days before MH17's crash, by Ukrainian Military Television, titled 'The Defense Minister of Ukraine Colonel General Valery Geletey in the ATO zone (05/07/14).' showing an operational BUK system from 0:55 to 1:10.."

 

Autopsy of the MH17 Crash  -  by John Helmer

http://johnhelmer.net?p=14322

"Dutch Safety Board reveals 3 possible pieces of BUK shrapnel in the bodies of the cockpit crew, and chemical evidence it cannot substantiate. Australian Federal police issue public rejection of government allegations.."

NDPP

MH17 Report: 'No Clear Answers Means There's No Smoking Gun Evidence' (and vid)

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/318663-mh17-plane-report-buk/

"The Dutch report on the MH17 is being spun by the New York Times and all these other Western mouthpieces as a victory, but if you look closely at anything, they fall far short of saying they know what happened.

The fact that the US doesn't want to hand over its evidence on the plane crash 'proves that they are lying and have been lying all along,' political analyst Daniel Patrick Welch told RT."

Doug Woodard

Flight MH17 - Russia and its changing story:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34538142

 

NDPP

Dutch Reports on MH17 Have Mistaken BUK Missile Model, Warhead Type - The Footnote Which Puts The Boot To BUK

http://johnhelmer.net?p=14340

NDPP

MH17 Final Report is Not A Final Report It's Just A 'Limited Hangout'  - by Patrick Armstrong

http://russia-insider.com/en/mh17-final-report-not-final-report-its-just...

"Limited hangout' is spy jargon for a partial admission of the truth to attempt to control the exposure of a clandestine operation. The hope is that the partial truth will satisfy the questioner and they will look no further.

The DSB fails my test but it fails it in an interesting way: in a limited hangout way, in fact.

By ignoring the damage to the port wing and port engine, the Board was able to shift the approach route of the missile away from Kiev-held territory south of MH17's route to rebel-held territory in the southeast.

The report was delivered by its Chairman Tjibbe Joustra [quondam the Netherlands' National Antiterrorism Coordinator - is that significant? You decide, Dear Reader.."

Doug Woodard

NDPP wrote:

MH17 Final Report is Not A Final Report It's Just A 'Limited Hangout'  - by Patrick Armstrong

http://russia-insider.com/en/mh17-final-report-not-final-report-its-just...

"Limited hangout' is spy jargon for a partial admission of the truth to attempt to control the exposure of a clandestine operation. The hope is that the partial truth will satisfy the questioner and they will look no further.

The DSB fails my test but it fails it in an interesting way: in a limited hangout way, in fact.

By ignoring the damage to the port wing and port engine, the Board was able to shift the approach route of the missile away from Kiev-held territory south of MH17's route to rebel-held territory in the southeast.

The report was delivered by its Chairman Tjibbe Joustra [quondam the Netherlands' National Antiterrorism Coordinator - is that significant? You decide, Dear Reader.."

NDPP, "port" means "left", therefore the evidence suggest that the missle exploded on the left or north side of the eastbound aircraft. The heavy damage to the front fuselage suggest that the missile also exploded close to the fuselage, probably coming from roughly in front, exploding on the north side.

Missile guidance systems are not accurate enough to reliably hit a target dead-on. This is why the warheads have proximity fuzes which receive signals typically (angled?) from the side, so that they explode near their point of closest approach. It's also why the warheads fragment, and send their fragments typically ahead and to the side.  

NDPP

Thanks Doug even though I knew all that already. See #67

NDPP

The Tongue that Ran Away with Itself - Australian and Dutch Officials Lose Control of MH17 Infowar   -  by John Helmer

http://johnhelmer.net/?p=14500

"Australian and Dutch police investigating the evidence of the shootdown of Malaysian Airlines Flight MH17 have gone public in disagreement with their superiors and with their government's political leaders.

The split has opened between forensic investigators and police on the one hand, who say they aren't convinced what weapon caused the crash, or who fired it; and politicians on the other-hand, who blame the Kremlin..."

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

So we can now all agree it was a BUK missle after all... not that some of us wasn't saying that all along.Tongue out

NDPP

Yes you were. I'll be waiting a bit longer..

NDPP

MH17 Coroner's Inquest: More Questions Than Answers

http://journal-neo.org/2016/01/06/mh17-coroner-s-inquest-more-questions-...

NDPP

MH17's Unnecessary Mystery  -  by Robert Parry

https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/15/mh-17s-unnecessary-mystery

"As the whodunit mystery surrounding the shoot-down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 nears the 1 1/2 year mark, the Obama administration could open US intelligence files and help bring justice for 298 people killed in eastern Ukraine on July 17, 2014.

Instead, a separate mystery has emerged: why has the US government clammed up since 5 days after the tragedy?"

Perhaps because they don't want the world to know what they know...

Noops

NorthReport wrote:

Good for Blaine Gibson

 

Good indeed!

You don't have to be a rocket scientist to make a positive ID on such a detailed piece of evidence.

Unless of course you are trying to cover something up.

NorthReport

oops wrong thread

NorthReport

oops wrong thread

sherpa-finn

A useful synopsis from the BBC of the past two years of facts, fiction and assorted conspiracy theories around the shooting down of MH-17:  

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35706048

 

NDPP

Malaysian Airlines MH17 Brought Down By Ukrainian Military Aircraft. The BBC Refutes Its Own Lies?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/malaysian-airlines-mh17-brought-down-ukrain...

"According to Australia News in a review of the forthcoming BBC production, the Kiev regime is identified as the culprit..."

sherpa-finn

Ha! Ha! Ha!  

Global Research (and its Babble apologists) up to the usual lies and creative editing. The Australia News article says NO SUCH THING about the Kiev regime being identified as the culprit. It simply describes how the BBC documentary will air and examine all the various claims and counter claims, by all the different parties.  (The BBC's own promo page for the documentary is here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0791ns4 )

Given that the documentary is part of the BBC's Conspiracy File series, Michel is probably just pissed he wasn't interviewed by the Beeb as a leading conspiracy proponent.  A global marketing opportunity missed.

 

6079_Smith_W

You can tell what liars the BBC are because they completely avoid the only options that make the most sense. Igor Girkin said right after the crash that the whole thing was fake, that the Nazis secretly loaded the plane full of dead bodies at Schiphol:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2697895/Now-rebel-commander-blam...

Though perhaps he only knew in part the lengths to which the International Zionist Cabal would go in making synthetic flesh to look like real people. In this case the whole thing was orchestrated by their agent Kolomoisky. Go to nodisinfo if you want to read the whole story. Mind the strong language and the focus on who the real enemies are, but sometimes the truth is difficult for some people to accept.

 

Unionist

Hilarious thread.

No one knows what caused the MH17 crash.

So, everyone blames the "side" they hate.

Any evidence to the contrary is automatically discarded.

In a better world, people would join hands and say: "We are ignorant! We are mortal! We are no better than anyone else! Let us seek truth together!"

Not in my lifetime.

 

6079_Smith_W

Well, there's a difference between acknowledging the investigators have not finished their work, and throwing up one's hands and saying we can't really know anything because we don't know if reality is even real, and it all comes down to personal bias.

Something killed those people, and there is a body of evidence. Whether there will be concrete proof (and the doubtful question of whether people would accept if if it was there) is another.

My point though is some have stretched the story far beyond what that article presents.

 

Unionist

Here's what I posted on July 24, 2014:

Quote:

Straw poll time!

Choose one:

1. Moscow

2. Kyiv

3. Washington (aka Langley)

4. Beijing

5. Hamas

6. Tel Aviv

7. Don't know

8. Don't care

9. Can't figure out how to make political mileage out of uninformed speculation about the cause, so stop sending me these polls.

Oh sorry, I was referring to this:

Taiwan TransAsia Airways plane crash kills at least 40

I'm getting ready to release the results of my poll, so get your last-minute entries in now!

 

 

6079_Smith_W

What would Occam do?

Aside from reach the obvious conclusion that if there's an investigative committee involved there must be a coverup, that is.

 

Unionist

6079_Smith_W wrote:

What would Occam do?

She'd bet $10 on Putin, and I'd raise 'er $15.

 

6079_Smith_W

I'd probably bet on the one with the most aces up his sleeve too, if the question is winning the propaganda war. I don't think anyone is saying Putin gave the order.

 

Unionist

Unionist wrote:

6079_Smith_W wrote:

What would Occam do?

She'd bet $10 on Putin, and I'd raise 'er $15.

 

Ummm... "raise 'er"... "Occam" ... get it?

Sigh.

6079_Smith_W

Okay... a bit slow on the uptake. Helps to add one of these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oShTJ90fC34

 

sherpa-finn

BBC: Let's take a critical look at all the conspiracy theories around the shooting down of MH-17.

Global Research: Malaysian Airlines MH17 Brought Down By Ukrainian Military Aircraft. The BBC Refutes Its Own Lies?

Unionist: We will never know the real truth. The media are all alike. 

Sherpa-Finn: Guffaw.  

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

The same NY Times that breathlessly lied on WMDs in Iraq is now reporting on "for sure" that a Russian-made BUK missile took down MH-17. Others can quote Western MSM on this - here are some very recent Russian media reports, in no particular order.

 

1. International investigators allowed Ukraine to fabricate evidence.

Importantly, the article also notes the Russian side was kept out of the process, their evidence rejected in advance (or ignored), and so on.

2. MH17 shot down by rebels using Buk system brought from Russia – int’l investigators (that's the group with a Ukrainian VETO, yup!)

The Russian government, etc. is not specifically identified here. However, they still vigorously challenge the claims, as does the manufacturer, etc.

3. Russian MoD: the only sources used are Ukrainian Intelligence and the internet.

Well, that's pretty self-explanatory.

 

Fill your boots.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

The new Malaysian PM has also vowed to "get to the bottom of it" and "those responsible are punished" , etc., although that country, by and large, got quickly into line with the Western narrative and their Washington overlords.

Quote:
Malaysia to call meeting with Australia, Netherlands after new MH17 reportMalaysia will see to it that those responsible for the downing of Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 will be punished, Prime Minister Datuk Seri Najib Razak has said. Commenting on the findings of international investigators released earlier Wednesday, Najib said Malaysia will call for a meeting with Australia, Ukraine and the Netherlands to decide on the next course of action, the New Straits Times reports. Najib made the statement while on a three-day official visit to Germany, his first as prime minister.

RT: newsline

Is this news item generally the promised September surprise that the US regime had in mind for the run-up to the November elections? Or more US-sponsored atrocities in Syria? Or both?

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

More from RT: Int’l MH17 crash investigation ‘politically deficient, defective by process’

Quote:
Joaquin Flores: We are not at all surprised by the results. The very problem with the JIT from its genesis was that it was put together by NATO as a result of a failure to actually create a truly independent inquiry team which was rejected at the level of the UN Security Council, once it became clear the point of any investigation was going to be to determine how it was that the Russian Federation was responsible instead of looking at the first question, ‘who did it?’ So, that was the problem from the very start. It was a geopolitically motivated investigation and it was flawed. Of course, you have a conflict of interest here, right at the start because the Netherlands is a NATO country. And NATO has been actively involved in this conflict on the side of the Ukrainian government. So, we are not at all surprised by the results and it is politically deficient, and by process it is also defective.

Well, that pretty well puts the boots to the report. But let's continue anyway.

Quote:
‘Such an approach is not scientific’

Dutch journalist Joost Niemoller, the author of ‘MH-17: The Cover-up Deal’ said the investigation has not been objective and he sees many problems with the way it was carried out.

“My main criticism is that the investigation was organized by the Dutch in very close collaboration with the Ukrainian government. When you do objective research, you would say that it is possible the Ukrainians did it. And now that is not possible anymore because the Ukrainians are researching themselves,” he told RT.

“What you see here is that the main evidence presented is the tapes with all those conversations …And when I asked what the source of these tapes is, they answered that it is Ukrainian Secret Service. And when I asked are there other sources, they said “no”. I don’t believe that you could take it seriously,” said Niemoller.

Speaking about the conclusions of the investigation, which suggests Russians are responsible, he said the problem since the very beginning was that investigators thought they knew what happened and “now they are looking for evidence” for that.

“This is not a scientific way of working. You have to check out all possible scenarios and you have to keep those scenarios on the table all the time,” he told RT.

In other words, nothing has changed, and the tormented families will have to sue the asses off all those involved to get some justice.

sherpa-finn

In the world of on-line scientific discussions, there is something known as Scopie's Law. It states that:  “In any discussion involving science or medicine, citing Whale.to as a credible source loses you the argument immediately... and gets you laughed out of the room." [Whale.to is an infamous site run by an English pig farmer that promulgates and promotes the full range of crack pot theories about matters medical, scientific, etc.]

I have the distinct impression that for Russia Today, its reporting on the shooting down of MH17 is going to be its very own Scopie's Law moment: "In any discussion involving international politics, citing RT as a credible source loses you the argument immediately... and gets you laughed out of the room." 

Just so that Babble does not leave the floor entirely to ikosmos's apologist splutterings and related conspiratorial denunciations - here is the link to the substantive report on MH17 by the Dutch Safety Board: 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/mh17-read-the-full-report...

And just for ikosmos, - the link to the related story in the NY Times: 

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/29/world/asia/malaysia-air-flight-mh17-ru...

Once again, Occam's Razor comes shiningly through the murk and mystifications.  

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Still at it egh ikosmos...?

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Ok, so sherpa-finn can only quote the discredited NATO-member-state report, or the infamous NYT piece? That's it? Why not quote web sources from the Ukrainian extremist regime as well?  And some youngster who's really pissed that "Putin killed my mom" ?

from upthread:

Pepe Escobar wrote:
... it is in any case the nature of these kind of attacks that makes it impossible to identify the perpetrator. In the past sixty years it happened twenty times that an airliner was shot from the air during a military action, usually by accident, by a ground-to-air-rocket or a fighter jet. In all cases things were settled outside the courtroom. Parties were bribed. Even if there was no doubt about the evidence, like in 2001, when Ukraine downed an airliner with a rocket. The political interests always prevailed over the truth. The MH17 case won’t be an exception to this.

When this case grinds its way through the courts, the result will appear as a footnote page 4,321 of the NYT, and the Dutch government will be too busy deporting people of the "wrong" ethnicity to care.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

A very solid critique of the Report by the Dutch-led investigation.

Why Kiev is to blame for the MH-17 tragedy

Key points:

- "The conclusions of the Dutch led investigation into the downing of MH-17 near Donetsk should surprise no one. The investigation set itself up to be incomplete from the onset by refusing to examine evidence that the Russian government, BUK-missile manufacturer Almaz-Antey, and apparently even the US government, were willing to provide."

- The two elephants in the room:

1. "First of all and most tragically, the investigators neglected to make enquires as to why a passenger jetliner was allowed to fly over a dangerous war zone. Anyone in 2014 with half a brain and a smartphone with a news-app knew that a bloody war was raging in Donbass."

This is summarized as follows:

"The fact the pathologically dishonest regime in Kiev could pretend Donbass was a safe place to fly planes over is the equivalent of President Assad hosting an international hot air balloon festival over Raqqa."

2. "The second elephant in the room is that the investigative team has not actually blamed the Russian Federation at all. They are implied a vague guilt by a fake association scenario.  The media is full of this, but the team itself has not blamed Russia. Here’s why.  The Donetsk and Lugansk Peoples Republics are not part of the Russian Federation, their soldiers are not soldiers of the Russian army, their missiles are not missiles of the Russian army, and unlike the regime in Kiev, they do not have an air force."

Finally:

Quote:
The only other thing worth commenting on is a statement that the missile launcher arrived in Donbass from across the Russian border.

Again there is no solid evidence of this, whilst it appears to be a fact that the particular missile in question has long been decommissioned by the Russian military.

What else is there to say?

6079_Smith_W

Nations aren't primarily responsible for declaring no-fly zones, as much as RT wants to bang that drum.

Usually it is aviation authorities, or the UN which declares them.

 

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Fuck RT. Find a critique that isn't a Russian propaganda site. Otherwise, you're just wasting everyone's time.

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