Malaysian plane crash

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Webgear

NDPP,

The SU-25 can only reach at ceiling height of 7km,and that is without weapons. See the posts above.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

ikosmos wrote:

Webgear wrote:

ikosmos,

You realize that the SU-25 is a ground attack aircraft and not a fighter aircraft. It maximum ceiling is around 16,000 feet with a combat load. While it can be equipped with air to air missiles it would be difficult to hit the MH17 at 33,000.

 

"Su-25 w/ R-73 VYMPEL missiles could fly at 6KM high, restart to climb, lock on, fire".

 

See The Russian Military Finally Speaks.

 

Yeah but the problem is those types of missiles are infrared guided (heat seeking) missile. It would have easily locked on too, tracked and slammed right into one of flight MH17 two big fat hot engines (check out the picture of a 777 below). While the warhead on air to air missiles tend to be rather small compared to surface to air missiles the impact and explosion would have most likely blown the engine off or made it disintegrate almost on the spot... it also would have most likely caught the aircraft on fire. There are huge fuel tanks in the wings around the engines (as well as in the center of the aircraft) the chance there wouldn't be a fire after such an impact and nearby explosion would be very slime.

The crash was videotaped and covered from several angles. You can clearly see there was no smoke trail leading to the impact on the ground. Fire and smoke only appeared AFTER the biggest part of the jet hit the ground. It would appear the aircraft was broke apart after losing flight integrity for some reason. An explosion from a proximity warhead (it blows up near the aircraft, it doesn't have to hit it) could disable the aircraft enough to where it would lose control and tumble to the ground. During the decent it would break into pieces (which we saw fall through the black smoke from the impact).

I'd be curious to know were the engines fell and what shape they were in. The investigators would be able to tell if one of them were hit by a missile. Seeing how the SU-24 shoot down theory is Russia's official version of events now you'd think they and their Pro Russian cronies would be in a hurry to show the world evidence of a missile hit on those engines. 

Webgear

Interesting to what other aircraft were in the area, maybe we should be looking for long range missions fire by other fighter aircraft.

There are some Russia missiles with ranges up to 90km.

How far is the crash site from the Russia/Ukraine border?

 

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Engine number 1....

Engine number 2

Both fell with the main body of the aircraft and are relativly intact. That is inportant in determining how the aircraft was brought down.

NDPP

ikosmos wrote:

 

See The Russian Military Finally Speaks.

 

The article is very critical of the way the Russians have conducted themselves, being out-classed in the information war by the Empire. I tend to agree. But in this case, the facts should also speak for themselves, since the dead have no voice.

"We now have proof that the Ukies lied at least twice. They lied about the footage of the Buk missiles being moved back to Russia (the footage was taken in Ukie-occupied territory) and they most definitely lied when they denied having any military aircraft in the area when in reality they had one in the immediate proximity of MH17.

That is a huge lie which the Ukies will have a very hard time dismissing.

I have no hope whatsoever that the western plutocracy will ever admit that the junta did it. Ditto for the corporate presstitutes of the MSM, but I do hope that the world will see this tragedy for what it clearly was: a deliberate false flag on the part of the Nazi junta in Kiev."

Webgear

Why did it take so long to release the information about the SU-25?

swallow swallow's picture

Quote:

“Hearing my dad cry on the phone after the cops came … my dad never cries,” she said, wiping away her own tears.

24-year-old Andrei and Olga, his German girlfriend, were on “their dream trip” after he finished his second year of medical school in Romania, his sister said.

[url=http://globalnews.ca/news/1459402/canadian-killed-in-mh17-crash-was-a-me... medical student among the victims[/url]

swallow swallow's picture

[url=http://www.thesundaily.my/news/1120183]UN Secrutyi Council condemns the downing of Malaysian plane[/url]

It's a unanimous vote, so no need for posturing about whose atrocities are bigger.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Webgear wrote:

Why did it take so long to release the information about the SU-25?

Why does the US regime and its satrap in Ottawa not release the information they claim to have instead of their demagoguery, threats and unsubtantiated claims?

NDPP

What Did US Spy Satellites See in Ukraine  -  by Robert Parry

http://consortiumnews.com/2014/07/20/what-did-us-spy-satellites-see-in-u...

"...What I've been told by one source, who has provided accurate information on similar matters in the past, is that US intelligence agencies do have detailed satellite images of the likely missile battery that launched the fateful missile, but the battery appears to have been under the control of Ukrainian government troops dressed in what looks like Ukrainian uniforms.

The source said CIA analysts were still not ruling out the possibility that the troops were actually eastern Ukrainian soldiers. There also was the suggestion that the soldiers involved were undisciplined and possibly drunk, since the imagery showed what looked like beer bottles scattered about the site, the source said.

Instead of pressing for these kinds of details, the US mainstream press has simply passed on the propaganda coming from the Ukrainian government and the US State Department, including hyping the fact that the Buk system  is 'Russian made', a rather meaningless fact that gets endlessly repeated..."

 

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

3. Why was a large group of air defense systems deployed to the militia-held area if the self-defense forces have no planes? 

You're thinking too narrow. Most likely they are deployed as defense from a Russian intervention invasion should it happen (and don't say it can't happen). Air Strikes would lead the attack. The SA-BUK units would help defend Ukrainian ground forces in the area. (Is that so unrealistic?)

If I were the Ukrainians I damn sure would have them deployed covering my forces. 

UPDATE: Wow now that the picture you posted finally loaded all I can say is WFT are the Russian's... amatures? Or more likly they must think most people are stupid.

That shit is sitting in a motor pool (parked all lined up nice and neat) and isn't even deployed (ready to fire). Just Fucking WOW.

 

Webgear

ikosmos wrote:

10 more pointed questions for the US and its Ukrainian puppet regime:

1. Why did the MH17 plane leave the international corridor?

2. Was MH17 leaving the route a navigation mistake or was the crew following instructions by Ukrainian air traffic controllers in Dnepropetrovsk?

3. Why was a large group of air defense systems deployed to the militia-held area if the self-defense forces have no planes?

 

4. Why did Kiev deploy Buk missile system right next to the militia-controlled area straight ahead of the tragedy?

5. On the day of the crash Kiev increased activity on its Kupol-M1 9S18 radars, which are components of the Buk system in the area. Why?

6. What was a military plane doing on the route intended for civilian flights?

Quote:
Russian monitoring systems registered that there was a Ukrainian Air Force jet, probably Su-25, climbing and approaching the Malaysian Boeing.”

“The Su-25 was 3-5 km away from the Malaysian plane. Su-25 is capable of climbing to the altitude of 10,000 meters for a short period of time. Its standard armament includes R60 air-to-air missiles, which are capable of locking and hitting targets from 12 km and which are guaranteed to hit the target from the distance of 5 km.”

7. Why was the military jet flying at almost the same time and the same altitude with a passenger plane?

8. Where did the launcher – from the video circulated by Western media and showing a Buk system being moved allegedly from Ukraine to Russia – come from? As the video was made on the territory controlled by Kiev, where was the launcher being transported?

9. Where is it right now? Why are some of the missiles missing on the launcher? When was the last time a missile was launched from it?

10. Why haven’t US officials revealed the evidence supporting claims that the MH17 was shot down by a missile launched by the militia?

RT wrote:
The USA, putting the blame on the self-defense forces, has yet refused to release any intelligence material. On Monday State Department Deputy Spokesperson Marie Harf described Russia’s statements as “propaganda and misinformation” - but when reporters asked her whether Washington would be releasing their intelligence and satellite data, Harf only replied "may be." So far the US has been backing its statements by social media and "common sense."

 

Where is the link for the picture? I want to see it in detail.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

10 more pointed questions for the US and its Ukrainian puppet regime:

1. Why did the MH17 plane leave the international corridor?

2. Was MH17 leaving the route a navigation mistake or was the crew following instructions by Ukrainian air traffic controllers in Dnepropetrovsk?

3. Why was a large group of air defense systems deployed to the militia-held area if the self-defense forces have no planes?

 

4. Why did Kiev deploy Buk missile system right next to the militia-controlled area straight ahead of the tragedy?

5. On the day of the crash Kiev increased activity on its Kupol-M1 9S18 radars, which are components of the Buk system in the area. Why?

6. What was a military plane doing on the route intended for civilian flights?

Quote:
Russian monitoring systems registered that there was a Ukrainian Air Force jet, probably Su-25, climbing and approaching the Malaysian Boeing.”

“The Su-25 was 3-5 km away from the Malaysian plane. Su-25 is capable of climbing to the altitude of 10,000 meters for a short period of time. Its standard armament includes R60 air-to-air missiles, which are capable of locking and hitting targets from 12 km and which are guaranteed to hit the target from the distance of 5 km.”

7. Why was the military jet flying at almost the same time and the same altitude with a passenger plane?

8. Where did the launcher – from the video circulated by Western media and showing a Buk system being moved allegedly from Ukraine to Russia – come from? As the video was made on the territory controlled by Kiev, where was the launcher being transported?

9. Where is it right now? Why are some of the missiles missing on the launcher? When was the last time a missile was launched from it?

10. Why haven’t US officials revealed the evidence supporting claims that the MH17 was shot down by a missile launched by the militia?

RT wrote:
The USA, putting the blame on the self-defense forces, has yet refused to release any intelligence material. On Monday State Department Deputy Spokesperson Marie Harf described Russia’s statements as “propaganda and misinformation” - but when reporters asked her whether Washington would be releasing their intelligence and satellite data, Harf only replied "may be." So far the US has been backing its statements by social media and "common sense."

 

Edited to add: here is a link for Webgear. The photo is from RIA/Novosti so you may have some work to do to find a bigger original.

The link for the RT story is here.

6079_Smith_W

Here's an English language version of that story (mentioned in the New Republic piece, above) about Igor Strelkov claiming the plane was full of dead people when it took off from Amsterdam:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/20/mh17-ukraine-rebels_n_5603470.h...

Quote:

The pro-rebel website Russkaya Vesna on Friday quoted Igor Girkin as saying he was told by people at the crash site that "a significant number of the bodies weren't fresh," adding that he was told they were drained of blood and reeked of decomposition.

Girkin said "Ukrainian authorities are capable of any baseness."

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

I've added a link for Webgear for the above story. The important figure in the briefing was Lieut. General Andrey Kartopolov.

 

About satellite imagery generally, I note the remarks by political commentator Mark Sleboda:

 

M. Sleboda wrote:
I have just seen the White House spokesman's response to the Russian challenge to provide their satellite imagery after Russia provided its own. Apparently the US will not provide its satellite imagery because its credibility and Russia's are "not equivalent".

So there you have it. Russia provides its evidence and does so publicly. I have seen no detailed refutation of this evidence. When challenged to produce its evidence the US says no and says "trust us".

I am not going to list the number of occasions when "trusting" the US on intelligence questions has proved a big mistake. It would take too long. Others with more leisure time can do so.

Bingo. We saw what happened with those despicable claims of WMDs in Iraq, chemical weapons attacks by Syria, and other monstrous lies. Hundreds of thousands of dead in Iraq, a country destroyed, millions displaced. All lies.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Some of the attempts to portray Russia and President Putin as the bogeyman follow. No attempt is made to distinguish the current regime from the old Soviet Union, grotesque monsters are portrayed to frighten adults with the brains of children ...

Here's another.

 

It all shows how tasteless and absurd western press coverage has become.

Russia, and Putin, is the eternal bogeyman.

6079_Smith_W

Look up the coordinates from that pic on googlemaps if you want

Decimal latitude: 48.0983333

Decimal longitude: 37.75527777777778

I'm not sure what it is supposed to prove.

(edit)

And yeah, tasteless and absurd; unlike the zombie plane story russian media is passing on in earnest, not as editorial cartoon.

 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:
UPDATE: Wow now that the picture you posted finally loaded all I can say is WFT are the Russian's... amatures? Or more likly they must think most people are stupid.

The RT website has been under a DDOS attack from pro-US government groups today. Loading may take a while.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

ikosmos wrote:

Bingo. We saw what happened with those despicable claims of WMDs in Iraq, chemical weapons attacks by Syria, and other monstrous lies. Hundreds of thousands of dead in Iraq, a country destroyed, millions displaced. All lies.

Or they can be waiting for Russia to dig themselves in even deeper before they show the evidence they have.

You dont always tip your hand at first notice.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:
Or they can be waiting for Russia to dig themselves in even deeper before they show the evidence they have. You dont always tip your hand at first notice.

Yeah. It also takes time to fabricate evidence.

I would say, based on a number of factors, that it is about 90% likely that the Ukrainian regime shot this plane down and say 10% chance of the self-defence forces doing it. The former ... would be deliberate and the latter in error.

For example, the Ukrainian military, with coaching from NATO, might have flown a military plane close to the civilian aircraft so as to lure the self defence forces into making a badly organized attack. Problem with this is that the latter really don't have the weapons nor the radar infrastructure to pull it off.

Much more likely is simply a cold, calculated attack on the civilian plane by the Ukrainian regime, goaded by their puppet masters in Washington, and an organized attempt to blame the self defence forces, Russia, or both.  Killing civilians on an aircraft is a great way to distract the world from killing other civilians in their campaign of ethnic cleansing in eastern Ukraine. And make no mistake, they are unrelenting in their killing in that campaign.

As soon as the train carrying the refrigerated bodies of the victims of the plane crash moved away, the observers present saw two Ukrainian aircraft make bombing runs on a nearby town. Reports came in a little later of more bombing in the DPR region. In fact, it looks like some of the delay associated with getting the investigators to the site stemmed from the Ukrainian regime cynically trying to exploit the situation of an investigation to gain an advantage in the conflict with the self defence forces. Talk about slimy.

But, of course, that brutal regime is treated as though they are pure as driven snow, the hundreds of thousands of ethnic Russian refugees from Ukraine are treated with silence, and the bombing runs of residential neighbourhoods, schools and hospitals contunes apace with a cheerful green light from their masters in Washington.

As Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi said, (paraphrased) he'd have an opinion of Western Civilization once he saw an example of it. Here is a shining example, oozing with blood and horror from every pore.

abnormal

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/2/1d6a9ac2-10e3-11e4-b116-00144feabdc0.html...

Quote:
MH17 crash: FT photo shows signs of damage from missile strike

[img]http://im.ft-static.com/content/images/b324fdf5-fb31-447b-9cd5-1500d2ecc...

The first apparent hard evidence that Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 was brought down by a surface-to-air missile is emerging from the crash site in eastern Ukraine, after experts confirmed on Monday there were signs of shrapnel damage to the aircraft.

The photograph above, first published by the Financial Times over the weekend, shows a piece of the downed Boeing 777 about a metre square with a gaping hole in the middle, surrounded by smaller holes and apparent burn marks.

etc ...

and this

http://www.news.com.au/travel/travel-updates/a-uk-analyst-says-early-clu...

 

 

 

 

 

6079_Smith_W

ikosmos wrote:

I would say, based on a number of factors, that it is about 90% likely that the Ukrainian regime shot this plane down and say 10% chance of the self-defence forces doing it. The former ... would be deliberate and the latter in error.

Really? Based on what factors, exactly,  other than your desire for the blame to lie with them? And how did you come up with those numbers?

A guardian piece on Igor Bezler, the man suspected of doing it:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/three-pro-russia-rebel-lead...

And my mistake for making false assumptions; he is a local, sort of. Born in Simferopol.

 

 

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

ikosmos wrote:

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:
Or they can be waiting for Russia to dig themselves in even deeper before they show the evidence they have. You dont always tip your hand at first notice.

Yeah. It also takes time to fabricate evidence.

So basically what you're saying here (implying) is no matter what the USA shows you’re not going to believe it...LOL

One has to ask why are you demanding to see something you are going to call fabricated if it doesn’t agree with you theory?

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Looks like the cockpit crew were killed out right.... the jet liner would go out of control and the stress from such action would break the aircraft up on the way down wihtout the airctaft exploding of catching fire.

So much for Russia's SU-25 shoot down theory.

6079_Smith_W

Not to indulge in this wild speculation (but rather to question it), even if one were to accept Strelkov's zombie plane theory as possible, why would the Ukrainian government even consider such an act at a time when their offensive is working? 

They have no need to turn international opinion. They have no need to do anything that might further destabilize the region or possibly draw Russia directly into the conflict, and they certainly have no reason to shoot anything out of the air.

The whole reason why conspiracy theories work is because one can imagine a motive behind them. There isn't even that, in this case - on the Ukrainians part, anyway.

swallow swallow's picture

I wonder why women hardly ever post on these threads any more. 

Only I don't, really. 

[url=http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/world/europe/Protesters-at-Russian-em... at Russian embassy in Malaysia seek justice[/url]

[url=http://www.thestar.com.my/News/Nation/2014/07/22/Envoy-Well-do-all-we-ca... ambassador to Malaysia pledge[/url]

Slumberjack

Because there's men posting here?  Other than that, I don't know why they couldn't just as well as anyone.

nicky

http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2014/07/if-you-lived-russia-wh...

 

"Did you know Malaysia Air Flight 17 was full of corpses when it took off from Amsterdam? Did you know that, for some darkly inexplicable reason, on 17 July, MH17 moved off the standard flight path that it had taken every time before, and moved north, toward rebel-held areas outside Donetsk? Or that the dispatchers summoned the plane lower just before the crash? Or that the plane had been recently reinsured? Or that the Ukrainian army has air defence systems in the area? Or that it was the result of the Ukrainian military mistaking MH17 for Putin’s presidential plane, which looks strangely similar?

Did you know that the crash of MH17 was all part of an American conspiracy to provoke a big war with Russia?

Well, it’s all true - at least if you live in Russia, because this is the Malaysia Airlines crash story that you’d be seeing."

 

So which of theses various Pro-Russian theories do you believe? Slumberjack? NDPP? Prince K? ikosmos?

 

Slumberjack

If I'm getting what you're suggesting correct, all of that rumour and innuendo, of the variety we should be well accustomed to from what we're being exposed to here at least, should have us warming up in a hurry to the version put out by the Kievan ministry of information minutes after the tragic event occurred, the same one that John "Syrian Sarin Gas" Kerry has been expanding upon ever since?  You think it's better that we get behind the Biden Family investment portfolio in Eastern Ukraine with our support for the accompanying narratives to that end.

6079_Smith_W

Slumberjack wrote:

You think it's better that we get behind the Biden Family investment portfolio in Eastern Ukraine with our support for the accompanying narratives to that end.

No, but by looking at the evidence that is out there, rather than by basing it on who you think the baddest bad guys are. Remember my example of Katyn? Even though the real Nazis were real Nazis, it didn't automatically mean they were the ones who slaughtered those Polish soldiers, even if Stalin tried to point the finger at them.

And with respect to this crash, we're dealing with several classes of things: evidence, a lot of it circumstantial, possible motives and opportunities, and more than a few outright conspiracy theories.

But at least now the black box is in the hands of those who know what to do with it.

 

 

 

 

6079_Smith_W
ikosmos ikosmos's picture

It's Putin's missile! - Pepe Escobar

P. Escobar wrote:

And here’s the spin war verdict: the current Malaysia Airlines tragedy – the second in four months – is “terrorism” perpetrated by “pro-Russian separatists”, armed by Russia, and Vladimir Putin is the main culprit. End of story. Anyone who believes otherwise, shut up.

Why? Because the CIA said so. Because Hillary “We came, we saw, he died” Clinton said so. Because batshit crazy Samantha “R2P” Power said so – thundering at the UN, everything duly printed by the neo-con infested Washington Post. [1]

Because Anglo-American corporate media – from CNN to Fox (who tried to buy Time Warner, which owns CNN) – said so. Because the President of the United States (POTUS) said so. And mostly because Kiev had vociferously said so in the first place.

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

nicky wrote:

So which of theses various Pro-Russian theories do you believe? Slumberjack? NDPP? Prince K? ikosmos?

I don't have enough evidence to make a determination as to the persons responsible for this tragedy. Unlike you Nicky my critical thinking does not allow me to cheerlead for either side. I will say my first and primary question is what was a civilan airliner doing in that airspace when Ukranian planes had already been downed? That is not a conspriacy theory just a necesary question in any investigation of a crash.

Dead people are dead people and they were in that plane and they are also in the cities being pounded by their own government for wanting more autonomy from a central government. Sorry I mean those pro-Russian terrorists are getting what they deserve and the DEMOCRATIC government in Kiev is well within its rights to bomb the fuck out of anyone it pleases.

 

Paladin1

Stockholm wrote:

Yes, they really are that stupid. We are not dealing with a trained military. we are dealing with a bunch thugs and mafia hitmen working as mercenaries for Putin, who's knowledge of military equipment can be summed up as "gee i wonder what this button is for". They probably spent the morning guzzling vodka and then saw something in the sky and thought - "let's do some target practice"

 

Trained military can be quite as guilty of bone headed moves.  I'll see if I can dig up a story about a US soldier at a FOB in Afghanistan unplugging a critical air-defense radar in order to play X-Box.  Not singling out the US mind you, Canada isn't immune to those stories either.

 

The the amount of equipment Russia and the US give to various rebels I'm really surprised this hasn't happened a lot sooner, and a lot more frquent.   This could easily been rebels the US funded that shot down an Air Canada flight or something.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

 

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

So basically what you're saying here (implying) is no matter what the USA shows you’re not going to believe it...LOL

Personally I tend to take most American statements as false until proven to be true because while sometimes American officials tell the truth, enough of them perpetrate deliberate falsehoods on a regular and recuring basis that how can one believe a word any US agency has to say. 

 

 

 

I actually take American politcians at their word. They want to run the world and the hell with people everywhere else in the world.  I just don"t want to be subject to American Exceptionalism. Given this throw back to the Cold War I guess that makes me a terrorist fellow traveler in your mind.

Quote:

US Secretary of State John Kerry, July 8, 2014:
“In my travels as secretary of state, I have seen as never before the thirst for American leadership in the world.”

President Barack Obama, May 28, 2014:
“Here’s my bottom line, America must always lead on the world stage. If we don’t, no one else will.”

Nicholas Burns, former US Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs, May 8, 2014:
“Where is American power and leadership when the world needs it most?”

Mitt Romney, Republican Party candidate for President, September 13, 2012:
“The world needs American leadership. The Middle East needs American leadership and I intend to be a president that provides the leadership that America respects and keep us admired throughout the world.”

Paul Ryan, Congressman, Republican Party candidate for Vice President, September 12, 2012:
“We need to be reminded that the world needs American leadership.”

John McCain, Senator, September 9, 2012:
“The situation in Syria and elsewhere ‘cries out for American leadership’.”

Hillary Clinton, September 8, 2010:
“Let me say it clearly: The United States can, must, and will lead in this new century. Indeed, the complexities and connections of today’s world have yielded a new American Moment — a moment when our global leadership is essential, even if we must often lead in new ways.”

Senator Barack Obama, April 23, 2007:
“In the words of President Franklin Roosevelt, we lead the world in battling immediate evils and promoting the ultimate good. I still believe that America is the last, best hope of Earth.”

Gallup poll, 2013:

Question asked: “Which country do you think is the greatest threat to peace in the world today?”

Replies:

  • United States 24%
  • Pakistan 8%
  • China 6%
  • Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea, each 5%
  • India, Iraq, Japan, each 4%
  • Syria 3%
  • Russia 2%
  • Australia, Germany, Palestinian territories, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, South Korea, UK, each 1%

http://www.popularresistance.org/the-anti-empire-report-130/

Slumberjack

kropotkin1951 wrote:
Personally I tend to take most American statements as false until proven to be true because while sometimes American officials tell the truth, enough of them perpetrate deliberate falsehoods on a regular and recuring basis that how can one believe a word any US agency has to say

The way simple psychology puts it....

Quote:
 Evidence for the distinction between declarative and procedural memory has come from research on patients with amnesia. Typically, amnesic patients have great difficulty in retaining episodic and semantic information following the onset of amnesia. Their memory for events and knowledge acquired before the onset of the condition tends to remain intact, but they can’t store new episodic or semantic memories. In other words, it appears that their ability to retain declarative information is impaired.

However, their procedural memory appears to be largely unaffected. They can recall skills they have already learned (e.g. riding a bike - or knowing how to regurgitate old information on cue) and acquire new skills (e.g. learning to drive - or knowing how to regurgitate new shit..er..information when required).

 

Italic font are my adds.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

U.S. to present intelligence data on MH17

Quote:

The Obama administration said Tuesday it would present data from the U.S. intelligence community laying out what's known about the Malaysia Airlines plane that was shot down in Ukraine.

White House spokesman Josh Earnest said the intelligence community will have some additional data to present later in the day. No additional details about what would be released were available.

Here it comes... I see you two are busy prepping your rejections already.

 

takeitslowly

Maybe what we can all agree on is that the mainstream media is largely ignoring the killings of ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine, and they are portrayed as terrorists, instead of the righteous rebels in Syria.

 

Regardless of which parties being responsible for shooting down the planes, neither the U.S or Russia really have any trouble with killing civilians if it further their national and economic interests.

 

The only fact that can be agreed on is that this is a tragedy and Malaysian airlines fucked up again by rerouting itself and fly on eastern Ukraine in order to save fuel costs or they are just incompetents on many levels.

6079_Smith_W

takeitslowly wrote:

Maybe what we can all agree on is that the mainstream media is largely ignoring the killings of ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine,

Um.... evidence, please.

That is to say, sure there's a war going on, but if you want to make a claim of targetted killings of Russians - any evidence at all - let's hear it.

(though I suppose a case could be made that a shot fired at one of the little green men is fairly likely to catch a Chechen or Russian national under that black hood)

But you may as well go all the way and say "Russian speakers" because Putin has actually tried to spin that bullshit story even further than ethnicity.

If I remember correctly the report they put out in the spring even included toppling statues of Lenin and presumed insults against the Russian Orthodox church as atrocities.

And as for American lies, I'm not sure how their position on this is the final determinant in whether we should recognize Ukraine's self-determination. After all, their money was green enough for Yanukovich, and they were the ones who told the Europeans - who actually proposed the deal at the heart of this - to fuck off.

(edit)

Your points about callous disregard for civilians and media spin, I agree completely. Though I would say the Russian media is guilty of far more out and out lies and one-sided coverage.

 

 

 

 

 

 

6079_Smith_W

Another perspective, one Canadians might understand:

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/opinion/The-Dutch-Mourn-Flight-17s-...

 

Webgear

Why can't we all get along and discuss this issue in an adult manner? Let's present data and look at all the points of view in a non-bias logical manner.

I have to admit the SU-25 data is very interesting. However as noted above we should look at other aircraft flying in the region. I wonder if there where any drones in the area of the crash site?

The real truth will never be known because it doesn't matter because all involved parties want to spin the incident to suit their own objectives.

I think the best option is to move on to the next issue. 

Slumberjack

You two should really present yourselves at the front door of the appropriate agencies involved in these matters, as expert foreign affairs analysts and crash site investigators.  Think of all the money that could be saved when they realize you've already dug around to arrive at the bottom of everything.  At the very least you'll make quick friends of all the respective bean counters, who are always on the lookout for ways to do more with less.  What you've managed to arrive at here is as less as it gets.

Slumberjack

Webgear wrote:
Why can't we all get along and discuss this issue in an adult manner?

Why?  Because shove it, that's why.

Webgear

That is why I love you SJ. You are still a soldier at heart.

Slumberjack

Wink

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Analysis: The shrapnel came from outside the plane.     

 

 

Quote:
Photographs of a piece of wreckage found by two reporters for The New York Times and analyzed by Reed Foster, a defense analyst with IHS Jane's, offer some clues about what could have caused Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 to crash. While it is impossible from the photographs to determine that a specific missile was used, Mr. Foster said, the damage is consistent with the effects of a fragmentary warhead carried by an SA-11, the type of missile that American officials have said was most likely behind the attack 
 

More proximity warhead style damage...

Webgear

Edits to Wikipedia articles related to the Malaysia Airlines crash have been traced back to Kremlin IP addresses. 

thorin_bane

Ian Capstick has irritated me a lot of the years but his Troops on The Ground bullshit has given a much better understanding of the type of people running the NDP. Absolutely the wrong approach and yet another black mark. Its to the point I can't vote for the NDP because they are Trudeau lite.

Webgear

Ian Capstick has called for troops on the ground?

 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

The Ukrainian military and fascist militias are already bombing the area around the crash site (and destroying evidence) and even accelerating the ethnic cleansing of the "Moskals" (ethnic Russians) as well in the DPR areas of control. You would think that the overlords of the Kiev regime in Washington would tell their attack dogs to lay off while the investigation goes on, or tries to, but apparently first thing is first!

Russian President Putin even had some words about this in his breifing on national security matters. The first remarks were public.

Russian President Putin wrote:
As for the terrible tragedy that occurred in the sky above Donetsk – we would like once again to express our condolences to the families of the victims; it is a terrible tragedy. Russia will do everything within its power to ensure a proper comprehensive and transparent investigation. We are asked to influence the militia in the southeast. As I have said, we will do everything in our power, but this is absolutely insufficient.

Yesterday when the militia forces were handing over the so-called black boxes, the armed forces of Ukraine launched a tank attack at the city of Donetsk. The tanks battled through to the railway station and opened fire at it. International experts who came to investigate the disaster site could not stick their heads out. It was clearly not the militia forces shooting at themselves.

We should finally call on the Kiev authorities to comply with elementary norms of human decency and introduce a cease-fire for at least some short period of time to make the investigation possible. We will of course do everything in our power to make sure the investigation is thorough.

There are some quite strong parallels between the barbaric conduct of the Ukrainian regime and its cousin in Israel with its horrific slaughter in Gaza. One murderous regime learns from another, apparently.

 

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