Massacre in Gaza: Part 2
December 29, 2008 - 10:28pm
We will start with cue's link
Here you go Nofactum:
Nice footage of some Ghandi's being beaten and gassed. The best part of it is when the IDF boys shoot a tear gas canister into the front door of the ambulance, driving out the injured and their attendants.
I will also add I wrote to the NDP about about their wishy wshy response too! Did not want to get into it cause thread was unbearable to load, and is unbearable to load, and I had thought one of the regular participants would actually start a new one, respectfully much sooner.
If anyone thinks the NDP was wishy-washy, have a look at Stephen Ignatieff's filthy statement:
The Liberal Party of Canada unequivocally condemns the rocket attacks launched by Hamas against Israeli civilians and calls for an immediate end to these attacks. We affirm Israel's right to defend itself against such attacks, and also its right to exist in peace and security.
We regret the loss of life sustained on all sides of the conflict. We call on all parties to end these hostilities, mindful that a durable ceasefire will be necessary to prevent continued civilian casualties and lasting damage to essential civilian infrastructure.
The international community has a responsibility to ensure that the cost of conflict is not borne by the innocent and Canada must stand ready to assist and ensure that basic humanitarian assistance reaches those who need it.
Our thoughts are with those in Israel and the Gaza Strip whose lives are imperiled by the cycle of violence in the region. In the midst of this crisis, we continue to stand for a peaceful resolution. We firmly believe that the basis of this peace will be the mutual recognition by both Israelis and Palestinians of two states, living side by side in peace and security, with a full resolution of the issue of refugees and settlements, as well as secure and internationally recognized borders and boundaries.
I'm not going to link to the source. It's a disgusting site.
And if you're not totally disgusted yet, then trailing the pack, here comes Bloc québécois foreign affairs critic Paul Crête:
Situation dans la bande de Gaza - Le Bloc Québécois demande l'intervention des Casques bleus pour assurer l'acheminement de l'aide humanitaire
Ottawa, lundi 29 décembre 2008 - Le porte-parole du Bloc Québécois en matière d'Affaires étrangères, Paul Crête, demande au premier ministre du Canada, Stephen Harper, de faire preuve de leadership au plan diplomatique pour qu'une force d'interposition onusienne intervienne rapidement dans la bande de Gaza afin de permettre notamment l'acheminement de l'aide humanitaire.
« Le Canada ne peut se contenter de simplement reconnaître le droit d'Israël de se défendre. Il est vrai que les tirs du Hamas sur le territoire israélien qui perdurent depuis trop longtemps sont inacceptables, tout comme le refus du Hamas de reconnaître le droit d'Israël d'exister. Cependant, pour éviter d'être accusé d'avoir choisi ce moment précis, soit juste avant les élections israéliennes et l'entrée en fonction de l'administration Obama à Washington en janvier, pour riposter avec une telle vigueur, le gouvernement israélien doit permettre l'envoi des casques bleus et l'établissement d'un corridor sécuritaire pour que l'aide humanitaire puisse entrer dans la bande de Gaza » a déclaré Paul Crête.
« Les populations israélienne et palestinienne ne doivent pas être prises en otages. Le premier ministre du Canada ne peut rester les bras croisés. Stephen Harper doit multiplier les pressions pour que la force d'interposition sous l'égide de l'ONU voit le jour » a conclu Paul Crête.
The Palestinian people - indeed, the simple norms of humanity and of international law - have no friends in the House of Commons today. The damned place should stay prorogued forever. Shame!
The Bloc québécois and the three other federal parties could take a cue from the U.K. about how to treat Israeli politicians.
----------------------------------------
Israeli evades arrest at Heathrow over army war crime allegations · Retired general tipped off after judge issues warrant· Ex-commander accused of demolishing Gaza homes
Scotland Yard was thwarted yesterday in its
attempt to seize a former senior Israeli army officer at Heathrow
airport for alleged war crimes in occupied Palestinian lands after a
British judge had issued a warrant for his arrest.
British
detectives were waiting for retired Major General Doron Almog who was
aboard an El Al flight which arrived from Israel yesterday. It is
believed he was tipped off about his impending arrest while in the air
and stayed on the plane to avoid capture until it flew back to Israel.
Scotland Yard detectives were armed with a warrant naming Mr Almog as a
war crimes suspect for offences that breached the Geneva conventions. (...)
______________________________________
The Liberal Party of Canada unequivocally condemns the rocket attacks launched by Hamas against Israeli civilians and calls for an immediate end to these attacks. We affirm Israel's right to defend itself against such attacks, and also its right to exist in peace and security.
We regret the loss of life sustained on all sides of the conflict. We call on all parties to end these hostilities, mindful that a durable ceasefire will be necessary to prevent continued civilian casualties and lasting damage to essential civilian infrastructure.
The international community has a responsibility to ensure that the cost of conflict is not borne by the innocent and Canada must stand ready to assist and ensure that basic humanitarian assistance reaches those who need it.
Our thoughts are with those in Israel and the Gaza Strip whose lives are imperiled by the cycle of violence in the region. In the midst of this crisis, we continue to stand for a peaceful resolution. We firmly believe that the basis of this peace will be the mutual recognition by both Israelis and Palestinians of two states, living side by side in peace and security, with a full resolution of the issue of refugees and settlements, as well as secure and internationally recognized borders and boundaries.
I'm not going to link to the source. It's a disgusting site.
Canadian politicians have a long history of standing with racist aggressors. Maybe it is because we are descendants of racist aggressors. I don't know. There is no political party in Canada that stands unequivocally for human rights. The rights of the Palestinians to basic dignity and even life itself is always secondary to Israeli posturing and lies.
"Nev er Again!" They say. Every fucking day, in truth.
Amazing, I did not think that the NDP's could actually sound better than it first appeared.
___________________________________________________________ "watching the tide roll away"
What a surprise, the NDP's response to crisis, once again at the forefront of ineffectiveness.
The NDP is the only party so far that has demanded a halt to the aerial bombing of Gaza and the blockade of Gaza. The Bloc spokesperson called for U.N. peacekeepers to facilitate aid and relief, but didn't call for a halt to the bombing. The Liberals and Conservatives cheered on the Israelis and pledged Canadian support for mass murder.
I don't like the NDP statement, but at least it said something.
Well, being thrown a scrap of putrefied gristle is better than nothing too. Some seem to be content to gnaw on it anyway.
So you think the Bloc, the Liberals, and CPC responses are so much better? Pffft!
___________________________________________________________
"watching the tide roll away"
Dr Mustafa Barghouthi, Secretary General of the Palestinian National Initiative and a leading activist based in the West Bank has written an incisive analysis of the current conflict:
Palestine's Guernica and the Myths of Israeli Victimhood
The Israeli campaign of 'death from above' began around 11 am, on Saturday morning, the 27th of December, and stretched straight through the night into this morning. The massacre continues Sunday as I write these words.
The bloodiest single day in Palestine since the War of 1967 is far from over following on Israel's promised that this is 'only the beginning' of their campaign of state terror. At least 290 people have been murdered thus far, but the body count continues to rise at a dramatic pace as more mutilated bodies are pulled from the rubble, previous victims succumb to their wounds and new casualties are created by the minute.
What has and is occurring is nothing short of a war crime, yet the Israeli public relations machine is in full-swing, churning out lies by the minute.
Once and for all it is time to expose the myths that they have created.
1. Israelis have claimed to have ended the occupation of the Gaza Strip in 2005.
While Israel has indeed removed the settlements from the tiny coastal Strip, they have in no way ended the occupation. They remained in control of the borders, the airspace and the waterways of Gaza, and have carried out frequent raids and targeted assassinations since the disengagement.
Furthermore, since 2006 Israel has imposed a comprehensive siege on the Strip. For over two years, Gazans have lived on the edge of starvation and without the most basic necessities of human life, such as cooking or heating oil and basic medications. This siege has already caused a humanitarian catastrophe which has only been exacerbated by the dramatic increase in Israeli military aggression.
2. Israel claims that Hamas violated the cease-fire and pulled out of it unilaterally.
Hamas indeed respected their side of the ceasefire, except on those occasions early on when Israel carried out major offensives in the West Bank. In the last two months, the ceasefire broke down with Israelis killing several Palestinians and resulting in the response of Hamas. In other words, Hamas has not carried out an unprovoked attack throughout the period of the cease-fire.
Israel, however, did not live up to any of its obligations of ending the siege and allowing vital humanitarian aid to resume in Gaza. Rather than the average of 450 trucks per day being allowed across the border, on the best days, only eighty have been allowed in - with the border remaining hermetically sealed 70% of the time. Throughout the supposed 'cease-fire' Gazans have been forced to live like animals, with a total of 262 dying due to the inaccessibility of proper medical care.
Now after hundreds dead and counting, it is Israel who refuses to re-enter talks over a cease-fire. They are not intent on securing peace as they claim; it is more and more clear that they are seeking regime change - whatever the cost.
3. Israel claims to be pursuing peace with 'peaceful Palestinians'.
Before the on-going massacre in the Gaza Strip, and throughout the entirety of the Annapolis Peace Process, Israel has continued and even intensified its occupation of the West Bank. In 2008, settlement expansion increased by a factor of 38, a further 4,950 Palestinians were arrested - mostly from the West Bank, and checkpoints rose from 521 to 699.
Furthermore, since the onset of the peace talks, Israel has killed 546 Palestinians, among them 76 children. These gruesome statistics are set to rise dramatically now, but previous Israeli transgressions should not be forgotten amidst this most recent horror.
Only this morning, Israel shot and killed a young peaceful protester in the West Bank village of Nihlin, and has injured dozens more over the last few hours. It is certain that they will continue to employ deadly force at non-violent demonstrations and we expect a sizable body count in the West Bank as a result. If Israel is in fact pursuing peace with 'good Palestinians', who are they talking about?
4. Israel is acting in self-defense.
It is difficult to claim self defense in a confrontation which they themselves have sparked, but they are doing it anyway. Self-defense is reactionary, while the actions of Israel over the last two days have been clearly premeditated. Not only did the Israeli press widely report the ongoing public relations campaign being undertaken by Israel to prepare Israeli and international public opinion for the attack, but Israel has also reportedly tried to convince the Palestinians that an attack was not coming by briefly opening crossings and reporting future meetings on the topic. They did so to insure that casualties would be maximized and that the citizens of Gaza would be unprepared for their impending slaughter.
It is also misleading to claim self-defense in a conflict with such an overwhelming asymmetry of power. Israel is the largest military force in the region, and the fifth largest in the world. Furthermore, they are the fourth largest exporter of arms and have a military industrial complex rivaling that of the United States. In other words, Israel has always had a comprehensive monopoly over the use of force, and much like its super power ally, Israel uses war as an advertising showcase of its many instruments of death.
5. Israel claims to have struck military targets only.
Even while image after image of dead and mutilated women and children flash across our televisions, Israel brazenly claims that their munitions expertly struck only military installations. We know this to be false as many other civilian sites have been hit by airstrikes including a hospital and mosque.
In the most densely populated area on the planet, tons upon tons of explosives have been dropped. The first estimates of injured are in the thousands. Israel will claim that these are merely 'collateral damage' or accidental deaths. The sheer ridiculousness and inhumanity of such a claim should sicken the world community.
6. Israel claims that it is attacking Hamas and not the Palestinian people.
First and foremost, missiles do not differentiate people by their political affiliation; they simply kill everyone in their path. Israel knows this, and so do Palestinians. What Israel also knows, but is not saying public ally, is how much their recent actions will actually strengthen Hamas - whose message of resistance and revenge is being echoed by the angry and grieving.
The targets of the strike, police and not Hamas militants, give us some clue as to Israel's mistaken intention. They are hoping to create anarchy in the Strip by removing the pillar of law and order.
7. Israel claims that Palestinians are the source of violence.
Let us be clear and unequivocal. The occupation of Palestine since the War of 1967 has been and remains the root of violence between Israelis and Palestinians. Violence can be ended with the occupation and the granting of Palestine's national and human rights. Hamas does not control the West Bank and yet we remain occupied, our rights violated and our children killed.
With these myths understood, let us ponder the real reasons behind these airstrikes; what we find may be even more disgusting than the act itself.
The leaders Israel are holding press conferences, dressed in black, with sleeves rolled up.
'It's time to fight', they say, 'but it won't be easy.'
To prove just how hard it is, Livni, Olmert and Barak did not even wear make-up to the press conference, and Barak has ended his [election] campaign to focus on the Gaza campaign. What heroes...what leaders...
We all know the truth: the suspension of the electioneering is exactly that - electioneering.
Like John McCain's suspension of his presidential campaign to return to Washington to 'deal with' the financial crisis, this act is little more than a publicity stunt.
The candidates have to appear 'tough enough to lead', and there is seemingly no better way of doing that than bathing in Palestinian blood.
'Look at me,' Livni says in her black suit and unkempt hair, 'I am a warrior. I am strong enough to pull the trigger. Don't you feel more confident about voting for me, now that you know I am as ruthless as Bibi Netanyahu?'
I do not know which is more disturbing, her and Barak, or the constituency they are trying to please.
In the end, this will in no way improve the security of the average Israeli; in fact it can be expected to get much worse in the coming days as the massacre could presumably provoke a new generation of suicide bombers.
It will not undermine Hamas either, and it will not result in the three fools, Barak, Livni and Olmert, looking 'tough'. Their misguided political venture will likely blow up in their faces as did the brutally similar 2006 invasion of Lebanon.
In closing, there is another reason - beyond the internal politics of Israel - why this attack has been allowed to occur: the complicity and silence of the international community.
Israel cannot and would not act against the will of its economic allies in Europe or its military allies in the US. Israel may be pulling the trigger ending hundreds, perhaps even thousands of lives this week, but it is the apathy of the world and the inhumane tolerance of Palestinian suffering which allows this to occur.
'The evil only exists because the good remain silent'
From Occupied Palestine. . .
-- Dr. Mustafa Barghouthi
Here's a link to that useful Barghouthi article
And speaking of links, remind failed to provide a link in the OP to the previous thread chunk on this topic, thereby proving once again that chopping up threads into unconnected chunks is no substitute for having paginated threads like the entire rest of the world does.
The Inalienable Right to Resist Occupation [excerpt]
Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni demonized the Palestinian movement: "Hamas is a terrorist organization and nobody is immune."
Complicitly, the Whitehouse blamed Hamas, as did Canada's government. Government officials in the US, Canada, and Europe spoke the same lame phrase, "Israel has a right to defend itself," as if the slaughter being carried out by a world military power against a starving population could be construed as some kind of defense. Israel, the world's most frequently cited violator of international law, a racist state, an occupation state built through violence and slow-motion genocide is being acknowledged as having the right to defend its criminality. This is preposterous; there is no right of an occupation regime to defend its occupation. Palestine, however, has a right to resist occupation!
Israeli writer Gideon Levy called Israel's actions a war crime, but he also blames Hamas: "In its foolishness, Hamas brought this on itself and on its people, but this does not excuse Israel's overreaction."
Hamas chooses to stand and resist occupation rather than getting down on its knees to Israel. It seems for Levy that resistance is foolish.
Levy implied that Israel had a right to react - just it went too far. Thus, Levy depicted Israel as the reactor and Hamas as the provocateur. This is false. Levy attempts to present Israel as blameless for Hamas's firing of rockets - as if all the violent crimes he reported against Palestinians had never happened before the rockets from Gaza.
What the critics of Hamas are alleging - without showing evidence - is that Hamas (or any Palestinian, for that matter) is behind the launching of rickety rockets from Gaza. However, even if Hamas is behind the launching of the rockets, so what!? Hamas, is the elected representative of Palestinians. Palestinians have the legal right to self-determination. They have the moral right to resist occupation. However, the right to resist must also be recognized as a legal right. It is absurd to argue that there is no legal right to resist the illegal act of occupation - a prima facie denial of the right to self-determination. History bears this out. Did the early Americans not claim a right to resist British colonialism? Did the Europeans not have a right to launch guerrilla attacks on the Nazi occupation regimes? Why does Levy deny this right to Palestinians?
----
Barack Obama on Israel's Siege of Gaza
"No comment."
“The president-elect was in Sderot last July, in southern Israel, a town that’s taken the brunt of the Hamas attacks,” David Axelrod told Chip Reid on Face the Nation. “And he said then that, when bombs are raining down on your citizens, there is an urge to respond and act and try and put an end to that. So, you know, that’s what he said then, and I think that’s what he believes.”
If Axelrod is correct, and Barack Obama does indeed support the bloodshed inflicted upon innocent Palestinians by the Israeli military, there should be no celebrating during Inauguration Day 2009, only mass protest of a Middle East foreign policy that must change in order to begin a legitimate peace process in the region.
Iranian Jews slam Israel over Gaza
Iranian Jews express their solidarity with the Palestinians and the victims of the tragic incidents of Gaza. Iranian Jews Society has condemned Israeli attacks on Palestinians in Gaza which have so far killed over 281 people in two consecutive days.
The Israelis showed that they do not abide by any civil and human laws, the society said in a statement released on Sunday.
Meaningful silence of the international community towards Israel's atrocities shows that there is an urgent need for a new plan for fighting against oppression and retrieving the rights of the oppressed people, the statement added
I love the disclaimer the Huffington Post put in front of the Barghouti article. Even a supposed left internet site has to look over their shoulder.
"Activists trying to bring aid to Gaza today claimed their boat had been rammed by Israeli gunboats in a "criminal attack" in international waters.
The Free Gaza Movement said its vessel, the Dignity, was intercepted by several Israeli vessels as it was heading to the Gaza Strip, which has been under Israeli aerial bombardment since Saturday.
One gunboat rammed the Dignity on the port bow side, causing heavy damage, although no one was hurt, the group said.
"[The Dignity] is taking on water and appears to have engine problems," the movement said on its website. "When attacked, the Dignity was clearly in international waters, 90 miles off the coast of Gaza.
. . . .
The group said the attack took place as the Dignity carried three tonnes of medical supplies at the request of doctors in Gaza.
The crew and passengers were hoping to treat some of those injured in four days of the Israeli air strikes, with hospitals in the territory overwhelmed.
. . . .
An Israeli foreign ministry spokesman, Yigal Palmor, told Reuters there had been no shooting, although two ships made "physical contact".
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/30/israel-gaza-aid-ship
Alternatives Information Center (their spelling) is also a very useful site. It is based in Jerusalem, but has Palestinians as well as anti-Zionist Jews among its participants: http://www.alternativenews.org/
Outrage and Frustration
What else can we do now? It looks like this is going to continue. We need stronger voices in Canada and Internationally to condemn the grab of coastal and marine energy resources by Occupying powers who continue to use bombs and ground violence to kill innocents as tools in their political kits.
It is Completely Sick.
I learned via CBC, today, Canada's brave(less) source for all the lies presented as truth, that Israel is commiting mass murder in Gaza because 300 Israeli children are home from school "today". There you have it: Won't anyone think of the little Israeli children while the Zionists butcher the Palestinian children?
CBC's coverage has been apalling at best, though I guess I shouldn't be surprised when it comes to their international coverage. Not that any of the mainstream media has been any better, but the Ceeb has been standing out in the last few days as the worst of the worst.
Demonstration in Montréal:
SUNDAY, JANUARY 4th 12h30
carré Cabot: corner St. Catherine | Atwater
(metro Atwater)
Montreal, Quebec
This is farther west than demos typically start here - perhaps we are marching on the Israeli consulate in Westmount Square.
And in your town?
yes. thanks Lagatta.
Occupation is a crime from Kandahar to Palestine.
In lieu of gathering the foxes and deer out here to stage a protest on the TransCanada pipeline in the valley, leaking and poisoning their water, I think I'm going to do up a sign for the Highway of Heroes.
better still, a more fulsome letter for this week's paper.
Yeah, the poor foxes and deer are also victims of rapacious capitalism, as are the Palestinians.
Rosa Luxemburg wrote a wonderful short piece on the extermination of small birds and indigenous peoples; must dig that up somehow. The computer I had it on died.
I think I'll write to the Bloc and personally to Gilles Duceppe and Pierre Paquette, whom I've known for decades. Pierre was at the Alternatives retreat this past summer, listening to many interventions about Palestine and the Middle East in general; one of the guests was a Palestinian from an association helping children traumatised by the ocucpation (and one of the lefty Palestinians I know). Pierre (and Gilles) should really be ashamed, as they know better.
I'll be busy on the organisation of this demo for the coming days - I know it isn't much, but people worldwide really have to take what action we can.
FM: "Won't anyone think of the little Israeli children while the Zionists butcher the Palestinian children"
Is there no end to the obfuscation? Can't you at least call them the Israelis? I mean, someone could also beat you away from the word "Zionist" saying "Not all Zionists approve of the massacre/are in arms, etc...."
Not all Israelis are Zionists and Zionism is the ideological construct behind the occupaton, oppression, and violence directed at Palestinians. To me Zionism is supremacist ideology little different than the many white supremacist movements in Europe or North America or from the one that once held power in South Africa.
Well, at least, we had the clarity to impugn U.S. and South African Whites - and not just their ideological construct - for racism and apartheid.
_______________________
Nuke the Knesset
No, our movement in solidarity with a non-racial South Africa was always called the Anti-Apartheid Movement, not the "Anti-South-African Whites (Afrikaaners and Anglos) Movement". And we marched against US aggression, imperialism and racism, (I started during Vietnam, as you probably did as well) not against US-Americans.
The IDF is the military force pounding Gaza, but Zionism is the ideological justification behind it, not only in Israel but in many parts of the world, and not only among Jews.
Yes, we do have to be especially careful in this instance to distinguish our solidarity with Palestinians against Israeli Zionist aggression from any taint of anti-semitism, as that is an important and lasting form of hatred in the "Western World". Not to be nice, not to be in any denial, but to build solidarity and win.
Oh we are being "especially careful" indeed...
Carefully labeling risk of anti-semitism people's outrage against Israel's politic.
It seems to me we have been down this road before.
Shame!
___________________
Nuke the Knesset
Robert Fisk: Why bombing Ashkelon is
the most tragic irony
The Independent, Tuesday, 30 December
2008
How easy it is to snap off
the history of the Palestinians, to delete the narrative of their tragedy, to
avoid a grotesque irony about Gaza which – in any other conflict – journalists
would be writing about in their first reports: that the original, legal owners
of the Israeli land on which Hamas rockets are detonating live in
Gaza.
That is why Gaza exists: because the Palestinians
who lived in Ashkelon and the fields around it – Askalaan in Arabic – were
dispossessed from their lands in 1948 when Israel was created and ended up on
the beaches of Gaza. They – or their children and grandchildren and
great-grandchildren – are among the one and a half million Palestinian refugees
crammed into the cesspool of Gaza, 80 per cent of whose families once lived in
what is now Israel. This, historically, is the real story: most of the people of
Gaza don't come from Gaza.
But watching the news shows, you'd think that
history began yesterday, that a bunch of bearded anti-Semitic Islamist lunatics
suddenly popped up in the slums of Gaza – a rubbish dump of destitute people of
no origin – and began firing missiles into peace-loving, democratic Israel, only
to meet with the righteous vengeance of the Israeli air force. The fact that the
five sisters killed in Jabalya camp had grandparents who came from the very land
whose more recent owners have now bombed them to death simply does not appear in
the story. (...)
The Palestinian Refugee Support Network has a program for people who would like to adopt a family in Gaza or the West Bank. They accept monthly donations of either $60 or $100. Here's the link:
http://refugeesupport.org/_wsn/page3.html
Puking matter
CIC Supports Israel's Right of Self-Defence
For Immediate Release
Dec. 28, 2008
Yesterday, following more than a week of Hamas's unceasing rocket and mortar fire attacks onto Israel's southern communities, Israel was forced to respond with limited miltary airstrikes to put and end to the rocket attacks from Gaza. Israel targetted Hamas's military installations, tried to avoid civilian casualties and regrets any loss of innocent life.
Moshe Ronen, Chair of the Canada-Israel Committee, and currently in Israel, noted the tremendous restraint that Israeli leaders have shown while they searched for a peaceful solution to the rocket attacks which have terrorized Israeli civilians, caused extensive damage and killed an Israeli citizen and left others wounded.
In response to Israel's military operation, Mr. Ronen emphasized that "every country has the right and obligation to protect its citizens. Israel is doing no less than Canada would, could and should do under similar circumstances."
Mr. Ronen expressed the gratitude of the Canadian Jewish community for the Hon. Lawrence Cannon, Minister of Foreign Affair's statement acknowledging Israel's "clear right" to defend itself against rocket attacks that have "deliberately targeted [Israeli] civilians" and for saying that "[f]irst and foremost those rocket attacks must stop." (...)
For shame?
I have been involved in Palestine solidarity for decades. I'm no friend of Israel's politic or whatever. A Palestinian set me straight about who the aggressor was in 1969, I believe, when I was a young teen. (A lot of progressive people had illusions about Israel way back then).
That is pure crap, martin.
Though we have to be espcially careful, yes, about not getting off the track in ideological disagreements when threads like this must build solidarity with the embattled people of Gaza (and everywhere in Palestine). For example, I think my political disagreement with cueball runs far deeper than anything to do with Palestine, but I have no problem whatsoever marching with people in religous movements (whether Palestinian Muslims or anti-Zionist ultraorthodox Jews) against this crime against humanity, little as I like their world outlook. In the real world, organising solidarity.
Puking matter
CIC Supports Israel's Right of Self-Defence
For Immediate Release
Dec. 28, 2008
Martin, what exactly is the purpose of citing this ultra-right pro-Israeli aggressor organization's release? Are you going to treat us to Government of Israel releases next? Are you trying to expose the CIC as being pro-Israeli?
sometimes greed, inhumanity, injustice, power, are just that.
i'm reacting here to lagatta's framing of the Earth and Indigenous Peoples as topics of anti-capitalist literature.
and unionists' critique of martin dufresne's posting of various statements.
what is this, primarily about socialist strategic presentation?
calculated politicking. never ceases to amaze me.
Martin,
You are a white, Canadian, male. Are you the enemy of all First Nations? Are you the oppressor of all women? Are you the occupier of Afghanistan? For that matter, are you the oppressor of all non-Western humanity? Or should we differentiate your views, your beliefs, and your values from that of the predominant culture of which you are a part?
Do Arab-Israelis, for example, share equal responsibility as they are Israeli?
At the heart of the oppression is Zionism.
The US while cheering on Israels mass murder, will throw a few bloody crumbs at Palestinians.
"Or should we differentiate your views, your beliefs, and your values from that of the predominant culture of which you are a part"
The only way to make such differentiation substantive is by acknowledging that yes, as a White, I am the factual enemy of non-Whites as long as racism isn't abolished; as a Man, I am the factual enemy of women (and often children) as long as Patriarchy isn't abolished, etc., and by taking action to differentiate myself factually, through action.
Any lesser differentiation is idealist obfuscation, protecting those who benefit from the oppression from identification and sanction, as if only ideas could be held responsible and countered...
__________________
Nuke the Knesset
Well, first, I will say that some of the bravest and most vocal opponents of Israeli oppression are Israelis.
Next, racism and patriarchy are abstract concepts. They have no substantive characteristics in the sense that there is no council, body, institution, constitution, nor ideology that represnt them or that can be torn down to eliminate them. Rather racism and misogyny are omniprescent and are represented by all Western and most non-Western councils, bodies, institutions, constitutions, and most ideologies.
So you are and will always be the Enemy of all non-Whites and all women. Of course you excuse yourself with "action" as though there is no anti-Zionist Israeli taking similar and perhaps riskier action in the name of justice and peace for Palestinians.
possible truce? demand for end of aggression and blockade
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/559559
Some photos from recent protests:
* Photos: Montreal stands with Gaza
by Sabrien Amrov
http://www.tadamon.ca/post/2277
In response to the current Israeli bombardment on the Gaza Strip, hundreds
gathered in downtown Montreal to protest the Israeli assault which has
until now killed an estimated 300 Palestinians, the majority civilians.
Air strikes continue to pound Gaza for the fourth consecutive day, as high
level Israeli officials have labelled the offensive an “all-out war”,
while from Beirut to Cairo major protests have swept across the Middle
East. Additional protests and actions in solidarity with Gaza will occur
in Montreal within the upcoming days.
* London: Demonstration for Gaza
photo by Fil Kaler.
http://www.tadamon.ca/post/2322
As protest swept the globe in solidarity with Gaza this past weekend an
estimated 2000 people attended a noisy demonstration outside the Israeli
embassy in London, England on Sunday in response to Israeli air strikes
that left hundreds dead in the Gaza Strip.
* Egypt: Solidarity for Gaza
photos by Per Bjorklund.
http://www.tadamon.ca/post/2334
Protests erupted on the streets of Cairo, Egypt only hours after the first
air strikes hit in the current Israeli attack on the Gaza Strip. Special
focus has been directed at the Egyptian government’s role in the ongoing
crisis in Gaza, as protesters across the Middle East denounced Egyptian
President Hosni Mubarak collusion with Israeli authorities in maintaining
a complete closure on Gaza throughout the past year. Gaza remains under
siege and completely cut-off from the outside world as Egyptian police and
military maintain a complete closure on the Gaza Strip in coordination with Israeli along the southern Rafah border crossing.
Nuke the Knesset
What is this, a joke?
Robert Fisk: Why bombing Ashkelon is the most tragic irony
The Independent, Tuesday, 30 December 2008
This is an improvement on Fisk's previous piece in which he went on about how "Israel deserves security" and Hamas wants Muslim martyrs.
Jason Cherniak comes out of hiding and tries to change the subject.
I don't have any strong objection to the Bloc's statement. They obviously opted for a middle of the road position, but they are echoing the calls of Palestinians for a humanitarian aid corridor and foreign peacekeepers. They are also emphasizing that the Palestinian people are being held hostage.
They haven't pointed out that Hamas is legitimate thanks to a transparent, democratic election, but that's not immediately pertinent.
Sorry. I can't lump the Bloc with the other three mealy-mouthed parties.
They didn't call for the bombing to stop.
here's the thing with self-determination; you don't have an occupying force ringing you with navy, and army, and putting you under seige, and preventing you from, you know, doing your own development, maybe getting a bit of gas from your offshore reserves (not having them stolen) to pay for food. stuff like that.
and when people don't get to do these things for themselves, and watch their kids get bombed, they get mad. and everyone gets mad. and some say stupid things (like nuke the knesset) which should not be said.
so the thing is, what else can we do now? it's frustrating to see the 'Middle East Quartet' big boys pretend to dictate peace and harmony to the peoples they're strangulating. and it must be said. the humanitarian aid corridor will end up being the gas shipment corridor, likely sans any real self-determination. this being what a big part of what the early planning and consulting was about. now just watching the game flower to fruition.
of course we have to keep saying, self-determination, rights, and tell the quartet and friends to work on cleaning up their own shops, developing energy alternatives and conservation, Limits to Growth. Let the Gazans Out of Prison. STOP THE MASSACRE.
possible truce? demand for end of aggression and blockade
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/559559
Truce is what happens between two sides that are actually fighting. This is a slaughter, pure and simple. Imagine a group of hunters slaughtering a herd of caribou, and in the process a few caribou charged their assailants, causing negligible harm. If the hunters stopped shooting the caribou would it be a truce?
Hardly.
cueball, those were simply the copied words from the article
It wasn't a comment directed at you personally, but one emphasizing the point. I am so frustrated and appalled by all this that there is really not more that I can add to this conversation, since the rest is more or less obvious. This is a slaughter. This is not an armed conflict, not a war. None of those words can be applied. Truce is not applicable.
As if the Germans who were laying waste to the Warsaw Ghetto took an afternoon off and called it a "truce".
I agree. The Israelis call a massacre a war and the world media jumps all over the word "truce" as though Palestinians really matter in the equation other than as victims.
END THE SIEGE ON GAZA! PROTEST ISRAELI WAR CRIMES !
---------------------
Saturday Jan 3 @ 1 pm
Vancouver Art Gallery (Robson side - (corner Hornby)
---------------------
Hundreds came out in the rain, sleet and snow on Monday Dec 29th to show our solidarity with the people of Gaza. We're mobilizing again for Saturday Jan 3rd, 1pm at the Vancouver Art Gallery. Please come out rain, snow or shine to demonstrate your outrage and our collective humanity in response to the latest massacre of Palestinians.
*** Article (including 34 photos) from Dec 29th protest:
http://www.straight.com/article-177783/protesters-rally-vancouver-agains...
*** Mainstream news from the Province:
http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=7832a374-dc9e-4079-...
*** Video from Dec 29th protest:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TATYHJiLOL4
*** Press TV coverage of Dec 29th:
mms://217.218.67.244/presstv/20081230/OUTPUT_10-03-00-FTP-ZAHRA-VANCOUVER.wmv
At least 300 Palestinians have been killed and over 1400 injured in the latest Israeli assault on the Gaza Strip, while the threat for further bloodshed still hangs heavily as air strikes continue. This is the single largest massacre in Gaza since Israel illegally occupied Gaza in 1967, many among the dead are civilians and the numbers keeps mounting. The Israeli state shows no sign of halting its assault anytime soon as they have begun to amass tanks and ground assault military vehicles on the border with Gaza. Israeli Defense Minister, Ehud Barak, has stated that, "the operation will last as long as necessary".
Israel’s latest massacre in Gaza occurs with official US and Canadian complicity towards Israel’s illegal siege and ongoing sanctions over the civilian population in Gaza. Over the past two years the Gaza Strip has been undergoing the daily violence of a wide-ranging humanitarian catastrophe triggered by severely reduced access to energy, food, and medicines. In effect, Gaza is the world’s largest open air prison.
Join us in Vancouver as people of conscience to stand in solidarity with the Palestinian people of Gaza and to demand an end to the siege of Gaza and Israeli apartheid.
==> TAKE ACTION!!!
1) Email the prime minister, foreign affairs minister, and leaders of the opposition. Visit:
http://www.cjpme.ca/action_gaza_2008_12.shtml
2) Respond to biased media coverage. Visit http://letgazabeheard.wordpress.com to send sample emails to the BBC, CNN, and Fox News regarding their biased coverage and use those template letters to send to Canadian media outlets.
==> LINKS ON CURRENT SITUATION:
* Photos from Gaza:
http://thephilistine.org/2008/12/27/the-latest-pictures-from-the-bombing...
http://ingaza.wordpress.com/
* Live from Palestine diaries
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/diaries.shtml
* The Gaza Crisis Talking Points by Phyllis Bennis
http://www.zmag.org/zspace/commentaries/3727
* Democracy Now interviews:
http://www.democracynow.org/2008/12/29/israeli_attacks_kill_over_310_in
* Gaza: the logic of colonial power in The Guardian
http://tinyurl.com/8sp9bf
* Israeli Slaughter, International Culpability
http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/20075
* Gaza massacres must spur us to action by Ali Abunimah:
http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10055.shtml
* Israel's Wanton Aggression On Gaza
http://countercurrents.org/lendman291208.htm
* Current Humanitarian Crisis in Gaza:
http://www.freegaza.ps/english/index.php?scid=100&id=555&extra=news&type...
==> TALKING POINTS ABOUT GAZA FROM COALITION AGAINST ISRAELI APARTHEID
* Gaza is the world's largest open-air prison. 1.5 million residents are packed into an area 45 km long x 10 km wide, while Israel controls Gaza's air space and borders. Over 80% of the population are refugees denied their legal Right to Return to the homes and lands from which they were expelled in 1948. Israel also illegally restricts Palestinian freedom of movement into and out of Gaza. For example, in August 2008, Israel denied three Gazan Fulbright Scholars their basic right to education by having their American entry visas revoked.
* Gaza has been under complete siege since June 2007, during which time the 1.5 million people of Gaza have been cut off from sufficient fuel, food, and medicine. Two weeks ago, the UN reported that Gazans were living without power for up to 16 hours each day; half of Gaza's population was receiving water only once a week for a few hours; 80% of the water in Gaza did not meet World Health Organization standards for drinking; the unemployment rate had risen to almost 50%; only 23 of 3,900 industrial enterprises were operational; more than 79% were living below the poverty line; more than 56% were food insecure; and patients with chronic illnesses such as cancer or diabetes could not be adequately treated or cared for. (See:
http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_gaza_situation_report_2008_12_...)
* Since 2001, fewer than twenty Israelis have been killed by Qassam rockets. In three days, nearly 400 Gazans have been killed by Israeli state violence. This is a ratio of 20 Gazan lives for each Israeli life, with the death toll in Gaza certain to increase. In January 2008, UN Special Rapporteur John Dugard stated, "a distinction must be drawn between acts of mindless terror, such as acts committed by Al Qaeda, and acts committed in the course of a war of national liberation against colonialism, apartheid or military occupation. While such acts cannot be justified, they must be understood as being a painful but inevitable consequence of colonialism, apartheid or occupation." Israeli and Palestinian violence can in no way be viewed as symmetrical -- individual Palestinians have chosen to resist their occupiers with largely ineffective home-made rockets, while the Israeli state, which boasts the fourth most powerful military in the world, has responded by collectively punishing the captive population that it illegally occupies. Under the Fourth Geneva Convention, collective punishment is a war crime. As the occupier, the burden is on Israel to end its state violence.
* Israel is an apartheid state. Canada must sever diplomatic ties with Israel and implement sanctions against it until Israel complies with international law. UN General Assembly President Father Miguel D'Escoto Brockmann recently called for a campaign of Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions against Israel, similar to the one that ended apartheid in South Africa.
==> Organized by various Palestine solidarity groups.
For more information email vancouver.gazaprotest@gmail.com
** ENDORSED BY:
Adala - Arab Justice Committee
Al-Awda - Vancouver
Boycott Israeli Apartheid Campaign
Canadian Arab Federation - National
Canada Palestine Association - Vancouver
Canadians Against War
Canadian Islamic Congress BC
Canadian Muslim Union
Canpalnet
Code Pink Women for Peace (local chapter)
Independent Jewish Voices (Canada)
Indigenous Action Movement
Jews for a Just Peace - Vancouver
Muslim Canadian Federation - Vancouver
No One Is Illegal-Vancouver
Palestinian Islamic League - Canada
Salaam -Vancouver
Siraat Collective
Solidarity for Palestinian Human Rights - University of British Columbia
StopWar Coalition
Students for a Democratic Society (UBC)
The Organizing Centre for Social and Economic Justice
Vancouver Socialist Forum
Voice of Palestine - Vancouver
Barack O'Bush
Click here
I agree. The Israelis call a massacre a war and the world media jumps all over the word "truce" as though Palestinians really matter in the equation other than as victims.
The Turkey Shoot
There really are no words to describe this disgusting butchery.
thanks for all the updates here, esp. the take action links. very helpful.
particularly the sample letter confronting some of the media lies,
"I am writing to express my deep disappointment in your coverage of the ongoing massacre in the Gaza Strip. The media have been focusing on Palestinian rocket fire into Israel as the immediate context for the deadly attacks, diverting attention away from the fact that it was Israel that broke the ceasefire many times during the last six months, particularly on November 4th, 2008, when Israeli forces killed six Palestinians.
What is missing in current media reports is the fact that the truce between Hamas and Israel was holding until Israel broke it on November 4, 2008. The Guardian reported this on November 5th. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians). Even Fox News reported on the attack, although it characterized it as a “clash” that was “the first battle since a June truce mostly quieted violence in the volatile territory.” (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,446805,00.html).
Why, then, are the media forgetting their own reporting? It is evident that Israel broke the ceasefire, irrespective of whether it thought the Rafah tunnels were a threat (since the tunnels were the targets in the attack). Israel knew full well that its attack would provoke Hamas’s retaliation.
Indiscriminate fire into a heavily populated civilian area—Gaza is the most densely populated area in the world—is the equivalent of a willful intent to kill civilians, and constitutes a war crime under international law, particularly under the Fourth Geneva convention. None of the Western media outlets dared raise this issue, or to interview international law experts.
In a news report on December 28th, 2008, the BBC aired interviews with Israeli officials who stressed the notion that Israel’s citizens were in danger. The BBC report emphasized the Palestinian rockets, how Hamas has acquired rockets with a longer range that can reach more Israelis, while showing footage of Israeli civilians scurrying towards their homes in anticipation of a missile launch. Israeli Foreign Minister Livni was shown dismissing the high death toll in Gaza, saying that the question was not to count numbers here and there, not of how many people had died, but that Hamas is a “terrorist organization” and a dangerous threat to Israel’s civilians. Sadly, however, it is a question of numbers, especially when so many of the 350 killed and over 1600 injured (so far) are women and children. As stated, this act violates international law.
This form of biased journalism has to stop. Misinformation hurts the cause of peace, and insults the memory of the Palestinians massacred during this dark event. Demonizing Palestinians encourages further Israeli aggression. Raising awareness about the humanitarian crisis in Gaza and the unacceptable massacre that took place on December 27th is essential to achieving justice for Palestinians in the Gaza Strip and beyond."
The Independent, Tuesday, 30 December 2008
This is an improvement on Fisk's previous piece in which he went on about how "Israel deserves security" and Hamas wants Muslim martyrs.
One of the things I appreciate about Robert Fisk is that he simply calls it how he sees it; no fear, no favour.
And Martin that tagline is disgusting and wrong.
Oh, and for the record, the world is (not) watching Gaza be razed again. What else is new? Like Cueball, I have almost nothing to add. The reality is so stark, it doesn't need my outrage to magnify it.
That's just it though, isn't it? The reality is so utterly stark and yet, as stark as it is, it's as though it can't be reconized. The entire world lives a lie.
Pacifying Gaza
I was at the Mosque in London last night. There were approximately 300 people gathered. It was an intense crowd. The people then carpooled to Victoria park for a candlelight vigil.
Khalil Ramal, Lib MPP London-Fanshawe and NDP for L-F Irene Mathyssen were the only pols present.
Mathyssen was singled out by one of the speakers for her work with the Arab\Muslim community in London.
No other provincial MPPs showed, no Con MPs, and the area's lone Liberal, Glen Pearson, was in Sudan.
Apparently there was a press conference for media earlier in the day. But there was (almost) no local coverage that I noticed.
aljazeera is reporting that iran is making statements now, and the ongoing bombing slaughter seems to be much more than an electoral tactic. i know you know this, but i'm wondering if we can get that list of UN embassies circulating again, maybe it is already, i'm not on lists at present. all out writing and phoning to all country contacts. even if i found the old list i couldn't post it all here. does someone have it on a website somewhere? united for peace and justice? i'll check around too.
PEJ has the content re: call for Emergency UN Gen'l Assembly/ International Court of Justice . now we just need the list of contacts posted somewhere easy from you folks in BC. appreciate any help.
http://www.pej.org/html/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=7562&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0and we could add in letters the explosion of indiscriminate civilian attacks elsewhere.
AS citizens of the world we demand our rights to peace, justice, absence of war crimes and the rule of international law in all countries.
If only this was as black and white as some here would like to believe. Here is an article to at least cogitate upon.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3647296,00.html
How about this propaganda:
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Communiques/2008/Israeli_humanitarian_aid_to_Gaza_31-Dec-2008.htm
It cannot be true - I thought they were genocidal maniacs?
If only this was as black and white as some here would like to believe. Here is an article to at least cogitate upon.
What a bunch of fucking lies, thanks for that Ohara.
___________________________________________________________ "watching the tide roll away"
Right, easy to call them "fucking lies", great response remind. I will take that for what it is worth...zilch!
Well, to be precise its not [only] a pack of lies.
The best propaganda uses carefully packaged and circumscribed truths. Goebbels probably said something like that.
But this propaganda is an outrageous apology for a massacre.
No problem, I thought it was a great response to such utter BS, no wasted effort on such blatent propaganda. What is worth ziltch is your link and the non-information it contains.
___________________________________________________________
"watching the tide roll away"
I think you should piss off ohara. Seriously.
Call it intolerance, or whatever you like, but get out of here for the time being.
It would be easy to respond to your propaganda. But serve no purpose then to get everyone even angrier.
Nice article, ohara. It says the Israelis are no worse than the U.S. and British in Iraq and the Russians in Georgia. What kind of Einstein came up with this scintillating logic?
If I thought there were any yiddishkeit left in Israel, its actions would make me ashamed to be a Jew. As things stand, however, as a proud Jew, I proudly declare my stand on the side of the Palestinian people against the Israeli mass murderers and aggressors. Their acts of desperation will end with their own destruction, as is always the case. The only concern is how many dreams, aspirations, and corpses (of Arabs and Jews) will be left along the way.
Quotes from the Hamas Covenant:
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory). "
"This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised. "
"Article Eight:Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes. "
"Article Thirteen:Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."
Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?
"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:
"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."
There are always those who can apologize for mass murder in the name of the state. I give you Madeline Albright as one example. And then there are the Kissingers and Baraks who can rationalize mass murder in terms of real politik. Terrorism when applied against nice white people.
You want a detailed critique of that fascist bullshit?
How about start at No.1 which argues that proportionality doesn´t matter and that Israelis should be allowed to kill 10 Palestinians for every Israeli(that ratio has gone way up now as well), no mention of whether they are civillians, women and children. That was the exact attitude of the Phalangists in the Spanish Civil War, Sharon and Olmert and their fans have company with that policy.
This is all obvious, everyone I know from young to very old is apalled by this massacre, its just apologists like yourself who don´t get it, and I doubt you ever will. Real racists are rarely cured, they are just eventually made irrelevant.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Communiques/2008/Israeli_humanitari...
It cannot be true - I thought they were genocidal maniacs?
Those Israeli soldiers are just too kind. They must have been trained by the U.S.:
Iraqi baby arrives in US for medical treatment
There's nothing new there Ghislaine.
The Hamas document does not even begin to establish the justification for a massacre- leaving aside whether such a possibility should be allowed for.
While your propaganda is not as offensive as Ohara's- it is at best meaningless. For example, even IF there is some exaggeration about Israel cutting off humanitarion aid... so what? That means there isn't a massacre?!??
So in the context of the reality ypur propaganda also serves no purpose other than to make people even madder.
If only this was as black and white as some here would like to believe. Here is an article to at least cogitate upon.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3647296,00.html
...Tuesday, another 100 trucks – double the normal number –are expected to enter Gaza after Defense Minister Barak approved the move.
Double the normal number? So does this mean that during the six month cease fire Israel was only allowing 50 trucks in a day to supply a population of 1.5 million? Pretty much, according to Barghouti's article
So in fact YNet's attempt to refute the claim that "It's all because of Israel's seige" inadvertently confirms what the Palestinians are saying.
Care to comment, ohara?
Meanwhile the UN has called the cut-off to aid a crime against humanity. Racists lie even while killing. I mean, if Israel's actions are anything less than barbaric and evil before the massacre, why did they bar journalists from going there? Yes, yes, for their own safety.
There's nothing new there Ghislaine.
The Hamas document does not even begin to establish the justification for a massacre- leaving aside whether such a possibility should be allowed for.
While your propaganda is not as offensive as Ohara's- it is at best meaningless. For example, even IF there is some exaggeration about Israel cutting off humanitarion aid... so what? That means there isn't a massacre?!??
So in the context of the reality ypur propaganda also serves no purpose other than to make people even madder.
That is not my propoganda, it is Hamas stated Covenant and goals. They wrote it, not me. It does not justify the killing of innocent people at all. I posted it to give some perspective here, as there have been scant condemnations of Hamas rockets, rocket factories, etc. Those firing the rockets though, if they believe in the Hamas Convenant, have no stated interest in an international peace agreement. Hamas is intent on killing civilians in Israel.
Israel has been broadening the appeal of Hamas over the past few days with their bombing campaign and working in direct opposition to its own interests. I can see how a Palestinian survivor whose family was just killed by an Israeli bomb would be looking for a violent organization to support. Someone needs to lay down their arms first, and it is not going to be Hamas. Israel should do it. Now, will this stop the rockets? Will a two-state solution an end to an occupation stop it? I am not sure, but it needs to be tried.
Ghislane, Israel created Hamas as part of a divide and conquer strategy to undermine the PLO's authority over Palestinians. "According to Zeev Sternell, historian at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, 'Israel thought that it was a smart ploy to push the Islamists against the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO)'". How's that working out?
What a horrendous comment, both from a factual and a moral viewpoint.
Your link does not indicate that Israel created Hamas, it states that Israel provided support - legal and otherwise. The article notes that Sheik Yassin created Hamas.
What a horrendous comment, both from a factual and a moral viewpoint.
How is it horrendous? What are rockets fired into a civilian area supposed to accomplish?
What are rockets fired into a civilian area supposed to accomplish?
That's another immoral question, at a time when bombs are falling on police stations and universities. Have you no shame?
aka, the right wing Christian zealots in Canada, do not want to know the truth, they want to believe in Israeli lies, of the type Ghislaine is now espousing, so I am sure your words will fall on deaf ears.
___________________________________________________________ "watching the tide roll away"
What are rockets fired into a civilian area supposed to accomplish?
That's another immoral question, at a time when bombs are falling on police stations and universities. Have you no shame?
Why is it an immoral question? I am talking about rockets that were flying previous to these bombs.
aka, the right wing Christian zealots in Canada, do not want to know the truth, they want to believe in Israeli lies, of the type Ghislaine is now espousing, so I am sure your words will fall on deaf ears.
___________________________________________________________ "watching the tide roll away"
I posted quotes from Hamas' own Covenant, not Israeli lies. There are plenty of disgusting comments and lies from both sides to be found. However, the post you are referring to was not an Israeli lie, but a Hamas quote.
Ghislaine, give it a rest eh, read critically and learn something before you spout off your nonsense. Though I suspect these words will fall on your deaf ears too!
___________________________________________________________ "watching the tide roll away"
Your link does not indicate that Israel created Hamas, it states that Israel provided support - legal and otherwise. The article notes that Sheik Yassin created Hamas.
Ok fine, let's just agree then that Israel helped Hamas with legal and other support in order to build them up for the purposes of undermining the PLO. The question remains the same - how's that working out?
Your link does not indicate that Israel created Hamas, it states that Israel provided support - legal and otherwise. The article notes that Sheik Yassin created Hamas.
If you dig a trench extending from a river, the water will flow into it.
Ok fine, let's just agree then that Israel helped Hamas with legal and other support in order to build them up for the purposes of undermining the PLO. The question remains the same - how's that working out?
Well, now Israel is helping the PLO with legal and other support in order to build them up for the purposes of undermining Hamas.
If at first you don't succeed...
Quotes from the Hamas Covenant:
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory). "
"This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah's victory is realised. "
"Article Eight:Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes. "
"Article Thirteen:Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be prominent, but most people do not know."
Now and then the call goes out for the convening of an international conference to look for ways of solving the (Palestinian) question. Some accept, others reject the idea, for this or other reason, with one stipulation or more for consent to convening the conference and participating in it. Knowing the parties constituting the conference, their past and present attitudes towards Moslem problems, the Islamic Resistance Movement does not consider these conferences capable of realising the demands, restoring the rights or doing justice to the oppressed. These conferences are only ways of setting the infidels in the land of the Moslems as arbitraters. When did the infidels do justice to the believers?
"But the Jews will not be pleased with thee, neither the Christians, until thou follow their religion; say, The direction of Allah is the true direction. And verily if thou follow their desires, after the knowledge which hath been given thee, thou shalt find no patron or protector against Allah." (The Cow - verse 120).
There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with. As in said in the honourable Hadith:
"The people of Syria are Allah's lash in His land. He wreaks His vengeance through them against whomsoever He wishes among His slaves It is unthinkable that those who are double-faced among them should prosper over the faithful. They will certainly die out of grief and desperation."
Not really any point in deconstructing this text one more time, except to say that the concept of Jihad, roughly equates to struggle in an Muslim, and Arabic context. Stuggle can be personal, or external, and include anything from demonstrations to violence. Interpretting the concept, as it is done by you, and most of the western media, and political figures, as "war" is simply an example of your own ignorance and gullibility.
As for the text of the document itself, it has been interpretted variously by different Hamas officials, the late, Ismail Abu Shanab (assassinated by Israel in 2003) interpreted the destruction of Israel to mean the incorporation of Israel into an democratic Republic comprised of the entirety of Palestine, where all persons would (inlcuding the Jews who live their now) would have equal rights and vote in general elections. He mused that the majority, which would be Muslim would naturally vote for some kind of Muslim leadership.
Not quite the blood thirsty genocide that you imagine the document to mean. But of course, interpretations made by Hamas officials, are never widely promoted or talked about, leaving Israeli appologists to apply the most heinous interpretation to the text, without nuance or subtlety.
I'll leave you with this. Not some western or Israeli pundit talking about what Hamas intends, but what Hamas say they mean in their charter, as offered by Ismail Abu Shanab
On 21 August 2003, Ismail Abu Shanab was assassinated by an Israeli helicopter missile strike while travelling by car in Gaza. Government press releases termed him "terrorist", "operative".
But veering off-message, an Israeli security source told the Washington Post after his killing, "To what extent that person was involved [in terrorism] or not is not important. What is important is that this man... is one of the people who makes decisions about what kind of policies Hamas should adopt."
In other words Israel itself elminated the most moderat Hamas leadership deliberately.
Ismail Abu Shanab: We cannot speak for the next generation, but for our own. That is what we know. We do not know what the goals of the next generation will be. We have suffered from Israeli occupation and from Israeli attacks for more than half a century. Since 1948, we Palestinians were kicked off our land and left in refugee camps. We now have 4.5 million Palestinian refugees. The Israelis continued in 1967, occupying the rest of the Palestinian land with all the pain and suffering involved in that.
But today’s generation, with all of these sufferings, wants to build and keep the Palestinian identity. This identity can be symbolised by this Palestinian state. This generation will be busy building this state, and making a better living for our children.
What the next generation will think, nobody speaks about. It is hard, anyway, to speak about the next generation’s thoughts while we are not achieving our own generation’s goals.
Consider for a second that if you read this interview, that you are for the first time in your life, actually reading the entire text of a Hamas official, in context, and complete, and ask yourself why this is?
This is an interesting column - showing that it's pretty hopeless, but not completely:
...some research published last year in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences by Scott Atran and others suggests that we can go a little further than that and that there is a logic to religious disputes and in particular the conflict in Israel and Palestine which cannot be reduced to secular calculations of interest but which can be treated with on its own terms....the absolutists who rejected with contumely the offer of profane money (or peace) for sacred land would accept deals that involved their enemies giving up things that they considered sacred. The paper cites both Israeli and Hamas leaders saying that they could make peace if only the other side would apologise for 1948, or recognise formally Israel's right to exist. Demanding this kind of wholly intangible mutual surrender of pride makes no sense on a utilitarian calculus, and yet it may be the only thing to unlock the situation.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/andrewbrown/2008/dec/31/religion-psychology
Martin, do you honestly think your tag line is appropriate for this or any other site? I suggest you remove it immediately.
"That is not my propoganda, it is Hamas stated Covenant and goals. They wrote it, not me. It does not justify the killing of innocent people at all. I posted it to give some perspective here, as there have been scant condemnations of Hamas rockets, rocket factories, etc. Those firing the rockets though, if they believe in the Hamas Convenant, have no stated interest in an international peace agreement. Hamas is intent on killing civilians in Israel. "
It's a good thing you qualified that statement, since according to Azzam Tamimi, in his Hamas: A History from Within, few Hamas members pay any attention to the "Covenant." He writes:
"The Charter...was Hamas' first attempt to produce a written document for others to learn what Hamas stood for. It was published on 18 August, 1988, less than nine months after the foundation of the movement. Since then, however, it has hardly ever been quoted or even referred to by the Hamas leadership or its official spokesmen. Their language has become virtually indistinguishable from that of any freedom figher in Latin America, South Africa, or East Asia" (Page 147).
"According to (Hamas leader) Khalid Mish'al, the Charter was rushed out to meet what was perceived at the time as a pressing need to introduce the newly founded movement to the public. Mish'al does not view it as a true expression of the movement's overall vision..."it should not be regarded as the fundamental ideological frame of reference from which the movement derives its positions, or the basis on which it justifies its actions" (Page 149).
martin, nuking the Knesset would kill millions of people, Palestinians every bit as much as Israelis - and a bunch of nearby Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanians etc. Perhaps even some Egyptians.
I do have a plea for this site - discussion is important, but mobilisation is more important still. Please relay all demos and other pro-Palestinian initiatives in your area, or any you are familiar with.
Next demo in Montréal: Sunday the 4th of January (date?) 12:30 pm at Square Cabot, opposite the Atwater métro.
The paper cites both Israeli and Hamas leaders saying that they could make peace if only the other side would apologise for 1948, or recognise formally Israel's right to exist.
This sentence shows the folly of reading a summary of a study without referring back to the source.
Here is what the original study said:
"Historic Palestine" includes post-1948 Israel.
Andrew Brown, in his so-called "summary", reduces that to: "Apologize for 1948, and we can have peace."
Nice try, Andrew.
Not to mention that the Knesset itself includes Arab MPs.
Notwithstanding the fact that "Nuke the Knesset" is equivalent to what Israel is doing in Gaz, the tagline is just plain inappropriate. But I added the above point in case people are not aware. Israeli Arab MPs are under no illussions what they can achieve. But they are definitely present.
Not to mention that the Knesset itself includes Arab MPs.
It might be more appropriate to say that there are MPs who oppose the Gaza pogrom. This is not an ethnic issue.
True. But I thought people would assume that some MPs oppose the massacre. And I wanted to correct impressions there may be out there that the Knesset- or Israel for that matter- is only composed of Jews.
For quite some time now I've been thinking St. Martin is an agent provocateur, intent on disrupting conversation here with his fringe, leftier-than-leftist comments.
I just received this from the Canadian Arab Federation:
The Arab Women's League Presents: No to Israeli Crimes Against Gaza! Long Live Palestine! Candlelight Vigil & Rally, Hamilton, Ontario
When: Wednesday December 31, 2008Time: 6:00p.m.
Where: Old City Hall, Hamilton, Main St & MacNab St
Demonstration: Stand with Gaza! End Israeli apartheid! In Montreal, Quebec
When: Wednesday December 31, 2008Time: 11:00p.m.-12:00a.m.
Where: The Pavillon Jacques-Cartier old port of Montreal metro Place d’Armes
http://www.tadamon.ca/post/2358
The Palestinian Association of Hamilton, along with the Hamilton Coalition against the War and the Muslim Association of Hamilton call upon all Hamiltonian's of good conscience, of all walks of life, and of all religious affiliations to join us for a public protest meeting concerning the situation in Gaza. Hamilton, Ontario
When: Thursday January 01, 2009Time: 8:00p.m.
Where: Hamilton Mosque, 1545 Stonechurch Road East, Hamilton
It is time to stand with the people of Gaza. Join us this Friday for “Save Gaza Vigil” to demand a halt to Israel’s murderous assault. Montreal, Quebec
When: Friday January 02, 2009Time: 12:00p.m.
Where: The corner of Ste-Catherine St. and McGill College Avenue. Montreal, Quebec
Join us in solidarity with the Palestinian people of Gaza and to call for an end to Israeli apartheid. Vancouver, British Columbia
When: Saturday January 03, 2009Time: 1:00p.m.
Where: Vancouver Art Gallery (Robson side - corner Hornby)
The Association of Palestinian Arab Canadians, Not in our Name - Jews against Israel 's Wars, and other groups, are planning a demonstration against the Israeli massacres in Gaza. Ottawa, Ontario
When: Saturday January 03, 2009Time: 1:00p.m.
Where: Parliament Hill, Ottawa
End the Siege on Gaza, Protest Israeli War Crimes. Montreal, Quebec
When: Sunday January 04, 2009
Time: 12:30p.m.
Where: Carré Cabot: corner St. Catherine and Atwater, (metro Atwater), Montreal, Quebec
The Debasement of Language: "Israeli Genocide"
Then he turns to what I consider a more important observation, which he begins by being facetious: "But why speak about such things when we can hold up placards equating Jews with Nazis, emote over dead babies or talk tough about defending Israeli citizens?" He goes on to suggest that Israel's critics would do well to behave like grown-ups, but: "If we are to do this then the friends of the Palestinians would be best advised to put pressure on Hamas never to launch another of its bloody rockets and to stop its death-laden rhetoric, and the friends of Israel well placed to cajole it into making a settlement seem worthwhile. All else is verbiage."
The rest here:
http://transmontanus.blogspot.com/2008/12/debasement-of-language-israeli...
Wednesday, December 31, 2008
“If you support democracy and peace for Palestinians and Israelis, Hamas has to go.”
It doesn't get clearer than that. It's from a succinct and saucy essay by my comrade Jonathon Narvey (in the photo, with the brolly), one of my co-founders at the Canada-Afghanistan Solidarity Committee, in today's Vancouver Province.
While everyone's been droning on about Israel's conduct in recent days, it's refreshing to see the focus properly turned on the culpability of Hamas in the sufferings of the Palestinians, and I see Michael Weiss has written a splendid and finely balanced essay setting out the complicity of Hamas in it all. Most pertinently, from my point of view - what with all the demented braying about Israeli "genocide" these days - Weiss points to this report last year from B'Tselem, the eagle-eyed observer of human rights violations in the Occupied Territories.
The report documents the slaughter of at least 344 Palestinians over the space of a few months by the Palestinian "leadership," which is to say Hamas and the Iz a-Din al-Qassam Brigades and their rivals among Fatah loyalists and the Palestinian Authority security forces. Thousands were injured in the bloodbath. The casualties were mainly in Gaza. The terror included summary executions, illegal arrests, torture, the deliberate crippling of prisoners by gunshots, revenge attacks, abductions, and looting. I guess it doesn't count as a Palestinian "genocide" when Hamas and Fatah are doing it.
The rest here:
http://transmontanus.blogspot.com/2008/12/if-you-support-democracy-and-p...
The rest here
Ohara, I respect your attempt to see all sides of this story. So often the conflict in Israel -Palestine inspire many on both sides of the issue to respond with hatred, intemperate language and violence. That said I have to agree with many here that the arguments made in the article you cited are fallacious. They seek to obscure the very real issue of Israel's disregard for civilian life and further seek to exagerate the danger posed to Isralis. For your consideration I'll answer with this website
http://palestinian.ning.com/forum/topics/the-other-side-of-the-story
Here you will see clear evidence of the indiscrimate terror waged by Idf.
You will see many children killed, maimed and displaced by this increasingly cynical regime. The right of a state to defend itself is mitigated by the level or volume of the threat posed to it.
Peace
Welcome to the New Elbbab - where filthy trolls like punch drunk can survive for a few moments, while the rest of humanity celebrates the advent of year which will mean victories for the victims of oppression.
Someone tell punch drunk, please, that while capital punishment has been banned in our fair land, suicide has been decriminalized.
Welcome to the New Elbbab - where filthy trolls like punch drunk can survive for a few moments, while the rest of humanity celebrates the advent of year which will mean victories for the victims of oppression.
Someone tell punch drunk, please, that while capital punishment has been banned in our fair land, suicide has been decriminalized.
Parroting politically correct mantra/falsehoods no matter how many times they are repeated do not make them any less false.
This tread is a disgusting example of the absence of any real discussion (save an except for blairz' s post above) just cheer leading of revisionism.
More from that "troll" Terry Glavin
Israel, Gaza, and 'The Left.'
Eric Lee of Labourstart states the obvious,
which should not be necessary, but is necessary, anyway: "Israel is
defending itself against an uncompromising fascist enemy, and while it
is entirely legitimate to debate its tactics and to insist that it make
the utmost effort to spare civilian lives, a decent Left should have no
difficulty saying which side it is on."
For an outstanding
example of the falsifications, misrepresentation and absurd
circumlocutions the indecent Canadian left is obliged to practice in
order to sustain its irrational hatred of Israel in the context of
ongoing events in Gaza, read this.
It's all there, in one neat package. It's one-stop shopping: Israel is
guilty of slaughter, atrocities, war crimes and massacres, prosecuted
according to its own "genocidal logic," and the ultimate blame lies
with Barack Obama, Joe Biden, Stephen Harper, Condoleezza Rice, the
European Union. . . everyone but Hamas.
If you prefer your hyperbolic idiocy succinctly stated in a single sentence, then Sid Ryan is your man: "I want to condemn in the strongest terms the acts of genocide committed by Israel this weekend."
the rest here:
http://transmontanus.blogspot.com/2008/12/israel-gaza-and-left.html
Whatever. Happy New Year, punch drunk, and please don't forget to drop dead (it's legal!!!) before midnight.
Yet another fine example of your brilliant and politically correct wit and and rhetoric.
I will not return your good wishes in the same tenor. For that would be gratuitous.
Sir?
More from Mr Glavin on point:
UPDATE: Here's a video of the demonstration against the "Israeli terrorist state apartheid regime" in Vancouver today (to their credit, these people appear to have at least abandoned the fraudulent claim to be part of an "anti-war" movement). About half way through, the camera turns to my good comrade Jonathon Narvey among a small group of pro-Israel supporters, across the street. He explains the difference between his side and the other in a single, plain statement: "We want peace for both the Israelis and the Palestinians. They don't."
Edmund Standing notices a certain pattern: "The continuing attacks on Israel from those who claim to favour civilised values are based on a perverse inversion of reality. When theocratic devotees of a Jihadist death cult launch murderous attacks on Israeli civilians, the fashionable approach is to ‘understand’ these criminal actions. And when Israel, in a very limited way, fights back against this violence being directed at its civilian population it encounters a firestorm of criticism and abuse, being accused of ‘racism’ and painted as a bloodthirsty monster that delights in ’slaughtering’ and ‘massacring’ women and children."
For a properly progressive critique of Israel's current strategy, you can always rely on Ami Isseroff: "The Israeli action is justified and long overdue. But the real question is, 'What can it accomplish?'" That's the question Lisa Goldman has been asking, and the answer she settles on is not exactly encouraging: "I am against the attacks on Gaza because they won’t work. Neither air force bombardments nor a ground invasion will stop the Qassams. In fact, the IAF and IDF attacks will make life more dangerous and disturbing for the residents of Sderot and the western Negev, because Hamas and Islamic Jihad will respond by increasing their rocket barrages."
We will see. For the time being, there is only one proper response: Solidarity with Palestinians and Israelis. For the time being, this will require acceptance of being in a minority position on the left.
It is always interesting to see who will place themselves on the side of the powerful against the powerless, and lecture others. these same people lectured us about the fascist saddam, and praised bush. history, and any semblance of moral seriousness, will be judge them appropriately.
Meanwhile, all respect and solidarity to Israelis like Gideon Levy, standing up against this irresponsible and brutal attack on the population of gaza.
Yeah, and Terry Glavin (aka punch drunk) has 4.5 more hours to do the right thing before a new, healthy year dawns.
ETA: Pacific Standard Time. Plus one second.
More from Mr Glavin on point:
UPDATE: Here's a video of the demonstration against the "Israeli terrorist state apartheid regime" in Vancouver today (to their credit, these people appear to have at least abandoned the fraudulent claim to be part of an "anti-war" movement). About half way through, the camera turns to my good comrade Jonathon Narvey among a small group of pro-Israel supporters, across the street. He explains the difference between his side and the other in a single, plain statement: "We want peace for both the Israelis and the Palestinians. They don't."
Edmund Standing notices a certain pattern: "The continuing attacks on Israel from those who claim to favour civilised values are based on a perverse inversion of reality. When theocratic devotees of a Jihadist death cult launch murderous attacks on Israeli civilians, the fashionable approach is to ‘understand’ these criminal actions. And when Israel, in a very limited way, fights back against this violence being directed at its civilian population it encounters a firestorm of criticism and abuse, being accused of ‘racism’ and painted as a bloodthirsty monster that delights in ’slaughtering’ and ‘massacring’ women and children."
For a properly progressive critique of Israel's current strategy, you can always rely on Ami Isseroff: "The Israeli action is justified and long overdue. But the real question is, 'What can it accomplish?'" That's the question Lisa Goldman has been asking, and the answer she settles on is not exactly encouraging: "I am against the attacks on Gaza because they won’t work. Neither air force bombardments nor a ground invasion will stop the Qassams. In fact, the IAF and IDF attacks will make life more dangerous and disturbing for the residents of Sderot and the western Negev, because Hamas and Islamic Jihad will respond by increasing their rocket barrages."
We will see. For the time being, there is only one proper response: Solidarity with Palestinians and Israelis. For the time being, this will require acceptance of being in a minority position on the left.
Only a total idiot would put the onus of culpability upon the party which has killed 5 people over the last 5 days, when its opposite number has killed 80 times that amount. As if the few casualties cause by the Jewish resistance in the Warsaw Ghetto was justified the actions of the Wehrmacht.
Yer just a fuckin useless demagogue and loser.
It's pretty revolting to see the kind of ad hominem attacks that appear on this site. Telling people to drop dead, insulting people who disagree with you, repeating lines of argument like mantras - all this doesn't seem to have much rationality or open-mindedness.
It's pretty revolting to see the kind of ad hominem attacks that appear on this site.
You should look up the meaning of "ad hominem". It's a logical fallacy, whereby you attack what someone is saying based on some personal quality of theirs, rather than dealing with the substance. Like, "she's just a Liberal/NDPer/Catholic/etc., what she's saying is nonsense", to oversimplify a bit.
When, however, a person says something extremely offensive - such as justifying mass murder - and you berate the person because of the substance of what they have said - it is the very opposite of ad hominem. Here, you are attacking the person because of what they said, not who they are.
You may not like it, but kindly characterize it properly.
Also, when arguments are repeated, it is sometimes because the truth tends to be forgotten, or grow hazy, unless reinforced by repetition and application to new circumstances. To never repeat oneself is either to remain silent, or to tell lies.
Finally, when someone comes onto this particular site, literally out of nowhere, and in their very first posts ever, starts defending and justifying the Israeli murderous carpet-bombing of Gaza... then to invite that person to "drop dead" is far more civilized, polite, and restrained than what this prick's heroes are doing to the people of Gaza.
Happy New Year, Hoodeet.
Did you know the Canadian government, last month, finally, is recognizing its moral cowardice of 1939 when it turned away a boat load of Jewish refugees? It's true. It announced this the same month it engaged in the very same brand of moral cowardice when Israel launched a "war" againt a ghettoized civilian population. Some things never change.
Quote:
"Hoodeet wrote:
It's pretty revolting to see the kind of ad hominem attacks that
appear on this site."
Welc
me to Babble where apparetly only the "correct" opinions and discussions are tolerated.
Happy New Year !
Blueballs:
You are just a coward hiding behind ridicule and hyperbole.
Get some help! There's medication for rageaholic "knowitall" lunatics like you!
Long thread. And punch drunk is gone.