North Korea

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Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

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Jimmy Carter: What I've Learned From North Korea's Leaders

I have a lot of respect for Mr. Carter.  Perhaps it's because he's probably the first U.S. President that I can remember campaigning and winning when I was a kid.  At the same time, I'm told that he's just another in an unbroken line of war criminals or whatever.

But when he says:

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I have visited with people who were starving. Still today, millions suffer from famine and food insecurity and seem to be completely loyal to their top leader. They are probably the most isolated people on Earth and almost unanimously believe that their greatest threat is from a preemptory military attack by the United States.

... I do have to wonder why the people of DPRK don't seem to view their own government as a problem.  He as much as acknowledges that they're starving.  Could spending nearly everything on flags and statues be a part of that?  NOPE!  It's all about the imminent invasion that hasn't happened, despite being "any moment now" for the last 60 years. 

They're like their own secular rapture cult.

You're kind of leaving out the facts that

1) It isn't possible for the people of the DPRK to overthrow their current government.  Expecting them to try is the same as expecting them to commit mass suicide.  Nobody revolts when they know there's no chance for a revolt to succeed.

2) The people of the DPRK have no particularly good reason to see "the West" as their friends.  The nations of "the West" killed tens of thousands of innocent Koreans during the conflict...U.S. troops committed massacres.  So, while the Kimearchy is a horror, we need to remember that there's no reason for the people of the DPRK to see the other "side" as any sort of a potential ally in liberation.

So it's somewhere between tunedeaf and unintentionally insulting for anyone outside the DPRK to wonder "why don't they just rise up?"  From where we are, none of us are really entitled to ask that question.

 

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Also, why are you baiting people for having harsh but valid views of U.S. foreign policy? I'm a Yank, and I'm fine with people observing that most of our leaders, and essentially all since the death of FDR, have been militarists.  Doesn't mean none of them had redeeming features...but it is reality.

​Obama was just as much a hawk as "number 43" had been, Bill Clinton was just as hawkish as "number 41"(I'd argue that Bill essentially created the conditions for the rise of Putin by repeatedly humiliating and undermining Boris Yeltsin-the Boris Yeltsin who was supposedly the guy the U.S. WANTED running post-Soviet Russia), and while Jimmy Carter was a little more peaceable than they were, he did push closer to what would have to have been an unwinnable military conflict with the USSR in Afghanistan than was ever necessary, while starting the policy of trying to force out the Sandinistas virtually the moment they came to power.

Why shouldn't we speak honestly about that?

​As an American, I love the best of my country...but essentially nothing the U.S. has done militarily since VJ Day has been an example of the best. The overwhelming majority of lives my country's leaders have ended by force since then have been for no worthwhile reason.

And President Carter is thought more highly of by progressives now because he has been a purely humantarian figure since leaving office, and has rejected all of the rigid Cold War views of the world he held as president.  So there's no contradiction between people praising him for what he has stood for in his post-presidential years while still raising legitimate criticisms of his choices while still in office.

WWWTT

I said it before and I said it again, Xi JinPing 习近平 is the worlds best statesman right now and has made it clear what's the best path moving forward! ALL of Korean's know this , the Japanese and pretty much any one outside the sphere of western propaganda influence!

I also predicted that Trump would shut his mouth about Korea. He took a little longer than I predicted.

NDPP

The Donald's Pivot (and vid)

https://www.rt.com/shows/crosstalk/409165-trump-asia-pacific-region/

"Is the US a status-quo power in the Asia-Pacific region or merely a foil challenging China?"

Sean in Ottawa

WWWTT wrote:

I said it before and I said it again, Xi JinPing 习近平 is the worlds best statesman right now and has made it clear what's the best path moving forward! ALL of Korean's know this , the Japanese and pretty much any one outside the sphere of western propaganda influence!

The views regarding the Chinese leader are very mixed across that region in part for the position China has taken with respect to offshore sea borders. Korea and China have had very difficult relations and many in Korea would like to see a thaw and hope this may be it. However, there is no way that you can suggest everyone feels the same way. Korea may be warming to China, but there is no universal view of the Chinese leader. You can see this if you read Korean media. Even if you wnat to pretend you know Korea more than they do, at the least your ALL comment is unsupported.

It is ridiculous to say ALL of a country thinks the same way about any leader.

Yes, he may be more appreciated than previously and more than Trump by many, but you are taking a grain of truth and building a generalization that cannot be supported. This kind of statement is why your comments, have to be taken with a grain of salt.

WWWTT

Oh for sure I’m being a little dramatic! After all this is the North Korea thread. But it looks like you misunderstood my comment.  I’m referring to the path Xi Jinping wants to take that I believe all Koreans and neighboring Asian-pacific nations prefer. I used the word ALL to refer to both Koreas. And I’m sure there are South Korea ba willing to invade the North  but I doubt there are too many  

Want to take what I say with a grain of salt? Good advise! I take everything I read on the internet with a grain of salt!

NorthReport
NorthReport

What a shame

North Korean defector found to have 'enormous parasites'

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-42021373

NorthReport

Rape and no periods in North Korea's army

http://www.bbc.com/news/stories-41778470

NorthReport

The Tweets of August: Trump’s North Korea Calculus Underestimates China

State-run paper says China will ‘prevent’ US from changing the ‘political pattern of the Korean peninsula’

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/trumps-thanksgiving-media-tear/article...

NDPP

North Korea's Missile Launch Result of US & Allies' Saber Rattling - Russian Senator

https://on.rt.com/8tbk

"What is reported to be a launch of an intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) by Pyongyang, its first since September, might have been triggered by Washington's incendiary actions and rhetoric it refuses to tone down, Konstantin Kosachev said. The launch comes just a week after US President Donald Trump put Pyongyang back on the list of state-sponsors of terrorism, vowing to roll out new sanctions against the hermit country.

The move was criticized by Kosachev as 'another step in pressuring Pyongyang' and its partners with a far-reaching goal of strangling North Korea to the point below the survival limit..."

NDPP

Marjorie Cohn: The Duty To Disobey A Nuclear Launch Order

http://www.truthout.org/news/item/42697-the-duty-to-disobey-a-nuclear-la...

"An order to use nuclear weapons -- except possibly in an extreme circumstance of self-defense when the survival of the nation is at stake -- would be an unlawful order..."

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

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North Korea's Missile Launch Result of US & Allies' Saber Rattling - Russian Senator

Right.  A program that's surely been years and years in the making is actually the inevitable and understandable result of Tweets and other normal actions over the last few months.  That just doesn't even make sense.

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For those in the military, there is a legal duty to obey a lawful order, but also a legal duty to disobey an unlawful order. An order to use nuclear weapons -- except possibly in an extreme circumstance of self-defense when the survival of the nation is at stake -- would be an unlawful order.

Does this only apply to the U.S. military, or to DPRK military as well?  If it applies to both then we should be safe.

cco

A lot of ink has been spilled on the absurdity of MAD as a deterrent, and I don't want to add too many pixels of my own, but it seems that from the perspective of all those military types who talk about how important deterrence is, the only circumstance in which one would actually launch nuclear weapons would be after the reason for their existence has already failed. That said, in reality, nuclear launch officers are specifically chosen and screened for their willingness to launch on any order that comes from the president (with the exception of, say, "nuke Indianapolis because Mike Pence told me my tie looks stupid"). Maj. Harold Hering was court-martialed out of the Air Force for asking how he could be sure a launch order came from a sane president. Hoping the officers will stand up to Trump (a coup, in other words, even if one in the service of avoiding nuclear apocalypse) is about as logical as the perennial hope that the electoral college will overturn an election result one doesn't like.

NDPP

Canada Useful To US Hosting North Korea Crisis Meeting, Officials Say

https://www.nationalnewswatch.com/2017/11/29/canada-u-s-meeting-on-north...

"...Freeland couldn't say what Canada's specific role would be but she said convening the meeting was an important step 'in terms of showing the unity of the international community in applying pressure on North Korea. Canadian officials had no comment on whether Russia would be receiving an invitation..."

The 'role' is as usual: Obedient vassal currying favour with Washington master.

Canada Sets Aside Two Bunkers At Military Bases Amid Global Uncertainty, North Korean Threat

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/north-korea-canada-cold-war-plan-1.4424523

"They are nightmare scenarios ripped straight out of Hollywood thrillers..."

Precisely. And intended to be so.

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

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Precisely. And intended to be so.

When I was a kid, forty years ago, all nuclear threats were nightmare scenarios.

If this isn't one then DPRK failed at their objective, yes?  Or were they aiming for a "perfectly ordinary day" scenario?

NDPP

Canada To Co-Host Meeting With US To Prepare For War With North Korea

https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2017/12/02/cana-d02.html

"Canada has played a warmongering role throughout the developing crisis on the Korean peninsula this year. The Liberal government and top military brass are able to engage in this deeply unpopular war conspiracy behind the backs of the population because no opposition exists to it within the political establishment..."

NDPP

Trump 'Begging For Nuclear War' By Staging Drills With South Korea - Pyongyang (and vid)

https://www.rt.com/news/411812-trump-nuclear-war-korea/

"Pyongyang has accused Donald Trump of 'begging' for nuclear war ahead of joint US-South Korea military exercises. The remarks came after six US F-22 stealth fighter jets arrived in South Korea ahead of the annual drills. Russia and China have long called for the US and North Korea to accept their proposed 'double-freeze' plan which would see Pyongyang suspend its nuclear and ballistic missile tests in exchange for a halt in joint US-South Korea drills. However that proposal was completely rejected by the US over the summer..."

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

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Russia and China have long called for the US and North Korea to accept their proposed 'double-freeze' plan which would see Pyongyang suspend its nuclear and ballistic missile tests in exchange for a halt in joint US-South Korea drills. However that proposal was completely rejected by the US over the summer..."

I will just ask again, whether this proposed deal would also see DPRK suspend its own military drills?

Is that unfair?  Is there some reason why DPRK still needs military practice, but SK doesn't or shouldn't?

WWWTT

Cmon Mr. Magoo why do you think this? Now I have been only reading comments in this thread and not responding because it’s all about this balony  Mexican stand off of nothing more than fake belly aching from the US about how they’re going to do s bunch of shit they’re never going to do. 

But enoughs enough man. Why should North Korea give up 1 ballistic missle testing. 2 nuclear test AND war games, when all the south and US only give up the war games? In negotiations you should be reasonable and be happy with some kind of progress. 

NDPP

US, South Korea Launch Large-Scale Drills Amid Spiralling Nuclear Tensions

https://on.rt.com/8trm

"Unprecedented joint air force drills featuring hundreds of warplanes, despite dire warnings from Pyongyang and Moscow's call to avoid new provocations..."

NorthReport

Time for Americans to leave South Korea.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

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Why should North Korea give up 1 ballistic missle testing. 2 nuclear test AND war games, when all the south and US only give up the war games?

You're right.  SK should also give up nuclear weapons testing and ICBM launches.  Fair's fair.

NorthReport

North Korea tensions: Senator urges US military families to leave South Korea as threat of war looms

'I think we're really running out of time,' Lindsey Graham tells CBS

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/north-korea-latest-senator-...

WWWTT

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
Why should North Korea give up 1 ballistic missle testing. 2 nuclear test AND war games, when all the south and US only give up the war games?

You're right.  SK should also give up nuclear weapons testing and ICBM launches.  Fair's fair.

i see your point. And it is a strong one at that! What really should be happening is the reunification of the Korean Peninsula and its the US military presence that’s the first thing preventing this!

this is what should happen. The south/US/Japan give up all war games. The North give up ballistics and nuke testing. Open up trade completely on the peninsula. All these three things must or should be done simultaneously.  Then build integrated infrastructure connecting the south with mainland China. Along with shared renewable energy sources and other infrastructures.  Now this is just way too much for the US. They’re more concerned with being disruptive. 

NorthReport
Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

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this is what should happen. The south/US/Japan give up all war games. The North give up ballistics and nuke testing.

Wait... but not their own war games?

Why?

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Now this is just way too much for the US. They’re more concerned with being disruptive.

Is that the answer to my question?  Giving up their own war games is just way too much for DPRK?  They're more concerned with being disruptive?

Pogo Pogo's picture

Sure throw in the NK war games.  I think you may have forgot the group hug.

WWWTT

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
this is what should happen. The south/US/Japan give up all war games. The North give up ballistics and nuke testing.

Wait... but not their own war games?

Why?

Quote:
Now this is just way too much for the US. They’re more concerned with being disruptive.

Is that the answer to my question?  Giving up their own war games is just way too much for DPRK?  They're more concerned with being disruptive?

I meant the United States and their military is more concerned with disrupting a peaceful reunification of the Korean peninsula.

And yes, asking the North to give up their war games is just way way too much with the US military presence on the peninsula and in Japan! The US has no right tho maintain anything beyond naval war vessels in the surrounding waters, and the number and class of vessels must be limited/restricted! The US military presense has never been up for negotiations. Why? If the north war games are on the table, then US military presence is on the table!

I'm only being realistic. But the US needs a good excuse to keep their military on the doorstep to China. A North-South renewed renaissance of peace cooperation optomism reunification and integration would strengthen the economies of China Korea Japan Vietnam Phillipines Indonesia Malaysia Thailand Russia etc etc and the white US cololonialism corporate war machine wants no part of it! It will do anything in its power to prevent it!

Keep in mind, China is also politically divided from Taiwan in a very similar way as the Koreas! Trump also tried to stir the pot with that one by making direct officialy open contact with Taiwans leaders. But I believe that this was more of a result of ignorance. However, I make this point because if China is seen (and particular Xi JinPing) to have diplomatic success in the Koreas, and catalyst their reunification, this will surely spread to Taiwan! Russia will also play a srtong role here and I'm sure there will be a rejuvenation in Marxism/Maoist/Communist and socialist beliefs and the rise of politicians with these beliefs.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
And yes, asking the North to give up their war games is just way way too much with the US military presence on the peninsula and in Japan!

Then why should SK abandon theirs, with DPRK's bestie, China, just across the Yellow Sea?  Don't they also have reason to want to be prepared?

WWWTT

China isn’t a foreign power in the region such as the US. At some point in time there’s going to have to be some kind of negotiation sacrifices and a whole lot of trust. In my opinion China and Russia seem to genuinely want this issue resolved and see the peninsula reunified to help integrate the economies and boost trade etc etc. I believe the US is the real bully and trouble maker stalling negotiations. 

NorthReport

According to some reports North Korea could have taken out a passenger plane with their latest missle launch. If China does not act, what choice does the US have?

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Because of that missile's altitude?  Or its accuracy?

NorthReport

An accident

NorthReport
NorthReport
Pogo Pogo's picture

NorthReport wrote:

According to some reports North Korea could have taken out a passenger plane with their latest missle launch. If China does not act, what choice does the US have?

Your not suggesting we boycott the Olympics?

Cody87

There is a little problem with peaceful reunification.

Kim Jong-un and the U.S. record on dealing with dictators who disarm.

Time for real talk. North Korea's government is guilty of horrific human rights abuses. The United States can't be trusted, and every dictator knows it after what happened to Gaddafi if not before. The only thing keeping Kim Jong-un alive is his position - he can't and won't give it up.

The only way Korea could peacefully reunite is under the continued leadership of "Dear Leader," and that wouldn't solve anything even in a bizarro timeline where it actually happened. Even if the rest of the world and SK would somehow consent (and they'd be insane to do so), I think if the opportunity presented itself NK would be forced to refuse since SK is "tainted" by many western influences, and the population is not brainwashed - NK wouldn't be able to retain control.

NorthReport

Alabama will probably go with Moore but it is the most Republican state so is not a barometer

Trump has to try and ensure ensure he does get a Democratic Congress for fear of impeachment

In his mind a war will help him solve his political problems at home

Pogo wrote:

NorthReport wrote:

According to some reports North Korea could have taken out a passenger plane with their latest missle launch. If China does not act, what choice does the US have?

Your not suggesting we boycott the Olympics?

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
There is a little problem with peaceful reunification.

Kim Jong-un and the U.S. record on dealing with dictators who disarm.

Well, and another problem.  Kim Jong-un and what happens to dynastic dictators when a country reunifies with another country that has free and fair elections based on merit.

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The only way Korea could peacefully reunite is under the continued leadership of "Dear Leader"

Dear Leader is dead, as is his father, Great Leader.  Un hasn't received a special honorific yet.

voice of the damned

Mr. Magoo wrote:

another country that has free and fair elections based on merit.

 

Well, as far as recent elections go, there was this from 2012...

https://tinyurl.com/y7bac94q

But yeah, the fact that the guy who organized this little intervention got exposed, arrested, tried, and sentenced(not to mention that the woman he was helping is now jailed and on trial, albeit for different offenses), makes the situation here somewhat different than a bog-standard dictatorship. This was basically the equivalent of Russian operatives allegedly spreading disruptive tweets during the American election, with the difference being that Won Sei-hoon as a Korean and a state employee had an obligation not to do the things he did.

 

NorthReport

North Korea is ready to open direct talks with US, says Russia's Sergei Lavrov

  • Pyongyang ‘wants above all to talk to the US about guarantees for its security’
  • Lavrov says he informed Rex Tillerson in Vienna on Thursday

There was no immediate response from Tillerson but the official position of the state department is that North Korea would have to show itself to be serious about giving up its nuclear arsenal as part of a comprehensive agreement before a dialogue could begin.

Lavrov conveyed the apparent offer on the day a top UN official, Jeffrey Feltman, met the North Korean foreign minister, Ri Yong-ho, in Pyongyang, during the first high-level UN visit to the country for six years. Feltman is an American and a former US diplomat, but the state department stressed he was not in North Korea with any message from Washington.

Analysis A guide to North Korea's advance toward nuclear weapons – in maps and charts

As North Korea’s latest launch shows increased missile capability, we chart the country’s progress in developing a nuclear weapon that can credibly threaten the US

 

“We know that North Korea wants above all to talk to the United States about guarantees for its security. We are ready to support that, we are ready to take part in facilitating such negotiations,” Lavrov said at an international conference in Vienna, according to the Interfax news agency. “Our American colleagues, [including] Rex Tillerson, have heard this.”

The diplomatic moves come amid an increased sense of urgency to find a way of defusing the tensions over North Korea’s increasingly ambitious nuclear and missile tests. The standoff reached a new peak on 29 November, when North Korea tested a new intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM), the Hwasong-15, capable of reaching Washington, New York and the rest of the continental United States. The missile launch followed the test of what was apparently a hydrogen bomb in September.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/dec/07/north-korea-ready-direct-t...

WWWTT

The only way Korea could peacefully reunite is under the continued leadership of "Dear Leader," and that wouldn't solve anything even in a bizarro timeline where it actually happened. Even if the rest of the world and SK would somehow consent (and they'd be insane to do so), I think if the opportunity presented itself NK would be forced to refuse since SK is "tainted" by many western influences, and the population is not brainwashed - NK wouldn't be able to retain control.

i believe Korea will be reunited. It will be a slow and gradual process. Perhaps I didn’t articulate this properly in earlier comments and I probably implied something quicker with Xi JinPing. But I still believe Xi JinPing will get a lot of the credit when a peace treaty is finally reached between north and south. 

Oh and by the way, don’t take this the wrong way, but maybe it’s you that’s brainwashed? Just saying. 

WWWTT

Well, and another problem.  Kim Jong-un and what happens to dynastic dictators when a country reunifies with another country that has free and fair elections based on merit.

a lot of assumptions behind this comment me thinks. If a unified Korea adopted a parliamentary esk ish system or some form of, their parliaments would have a lot of communists filling the seats! Keep in mind Portugal has elected communists in theirs among other countries!

Check this out

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/11/nepal-communist-party-leader-elected-new-prime-minister-khadga-prasad-oli

http://www.peoplesworld.org/article/communist-elected-to-head-nepal-government/

NorthReport
NDPP

US Participation At PyeongChang 2018 Remains 'Open Question'

https://on.rt.com/8u6l

"Nikki Haley says sending American athletes to the 2018 Winter Olympics remains uncertain amid security fears..."

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
a lot of assumptions behind this comment me thinks. If a unified Korea adopted a parliamentary esk ish system or some form of, their parliaments would have a lot of communists filling the seats! Keep in mind Portugal has elected communists in theirs among other countries!

That's fine.  No quarrel with that.  I'm just suggesting that if dictators like Un could reasonably expect to be chosen in a free, multi-party election, they'd hold free, multi-party elections.  Wouldn't they?

Do you suppose that Kim Jong-Un would settle for being the Unified Korea equivalent of an MP?

WWWTT

Possibly? I don’t know Kim personally so we’re all really just guessing aren’t we? In a parliamentary system he can easily be the leader as an MP depending how the vote went and their unique dynamics. Regardless I don’t think the Korea peninsula will be that close to integration until Kim is much older and probably at that time things will be much different there. 

NDPP

Further Signs of Looming US War With North Korea

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2017/12/09/nkor-d09.html

"Another indication of the advanced US preparations for war against North Korea..."

 

Chinese Media Advises Locals On North Korea Border How To Survive Nuclear War

https://southfront.org/chinese-media-advises-locals-n-korea-border-survi...

"An official newspaper of China's northeastern province of Jilin has published a full-page article instructing its citizens on how to protect themselves in case of a nuclear attack. The province of Jilin borders North Korea..."

progressive17 progressive17's picture

Before there is reunification of Korea, there has to be an end to the still-extant state of war. No peace treaty was ever signed. It is just a cease-fire.

As to elections, I would guess that Juche would probably still capture seats in the North. Generations of DPRK subjects have been conditioned from their earliest ages to be totally committed to Juche.

At the very least, Juche and its leaders would probably have to be part of some kind of power-sharing agreement over all of Korea, somewhat like the DUP and Sinn Fein in Ulster after the Good Friday Agreement...

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