Notre Dame is burning...

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Timebandit Timebandit's picture
Notre Dame is burning...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2019/apr/15/notre-dame-cathedral-...

Notre Dame cathedral in Paris has caught fire. The spire has collapsed.

I'm a dyed in the wool atheist, but I've visited Notre Dame every time I've been in Paris. So beautiful. The first time I was there it was evening, I was jet-lagged and it was full of singing and incense and there was this sense of what I can only describe as magic. I understood, for a moment, the pull of the ritual even if I don't accept the existence of the god.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

It is a great loss.  At this point, we should work from the assumption that the fire was an accident-there was a major remodeling project underway when the fire broke out in which the contractors could have cut corners in setting up the electrical system they were using, it is likely that everything inside the building, including the existing wiring, is very, very old and out-of-date.   A cathedral contains many, many flammable materials.

And we can assume that, within a few hours, diabolical and utterly unfounded rumors will be spread as to the origins of the fire.

 

NDPP

LIVE: French President Macron Postpones TV Address Amid Notre Dame Fire

https://www.france24.com/en/20190415-live-france-emmanuel-macron-speech-...

"French President Emmanuel Macron was set to address the nation on TV in a highly anticipated speech on the Yellow Vest crisis but canceled at the last minute after news emerged that the landmark Paris cathedral Notre Dame was on fire..."

How convenient.

'The only church that illuminates is a burning church.'

Buenaventura Durruti.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Right on cue.

Fuck off, NDPP.

WWWTT

For those who live in a world where an object has more value than people, you've lost you way.

Sorry to see a historical structure get destroyed, real unfortunate event. But it's not more news worthy than someone losing an eye from the actions of riot police as far as I'm concerned.

Building codes are improving internationally, so the structures built today and in the last several decades will have a better chance of surviving longer. Structures like this catherderal are much more prone to disasters.

Lots of symbolism will be drawn into this fire i suspect.

NorthReport

Thanks very much timebandit for your opening post.

Fortunately no one has been injured in the fire so far.

 

 

Pondering

Enormous human effort was put into creating this wondrous building. Churches were built to awe in the service of religion but strip away the religion and the awe remains at what was achieved. We need examples of the best humans can produce. What we can produce when we aren't taking out someone's eye or far far worse. Does giving attention to a lost eye minimize the suffering of people, children dying, in refugee camps in Syria?

This is a great lost to humanity we should mourn. It does not disrespect all the current suffering in this world. A yellow vest announcement is not what Paris is listening for in this moment. 

quizzical

i cried. then gave thanks i sent my daughter to France and that she got to see it.

WWWTT

I wrote earlier 

Lots of symbolism will be drawn into this fire i suspect.

one of those symbolisms are “nothing lasts forever”

 

NorthReport

Macron says Cathedral will be rebuilt.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

WWWTT wrote:

For those who live in a world where an object has more value than people, you've lost you way.

Sorry to see a historical structure get destroyed, real unfortunate event. But it's not more news worthy than someone losing an eye from the actions of riot police as far as I'm concerned.

Building codes are improving internationally, so the structures built today and in the last several decades will have a better chance of surviving longer. Structures like this catherderal are much more prone to disasters.

Lots of symbolism will be drawn into this fire i suspect.

Nobody was saying that the loss of this building is more important than the loss of people.  And this event is not a victory for secularism or anti-clericalism or anything progressive at all.

It's the destruction of a place that meant a lot to some people.  It's not as though feeling saddened about this is an endorsement of the Inquisition or the Magdalene Laundries or the predator priests.  

NorthReport

Why Notre Dame matters, in one Victor Hugo passage

What Victor Hugo wrote to save Notre Dame when it was on the brink of destruction.

https://www.vox.com/culture/2019/4/15/18311758/notre-dame-fire-victor-hugo-hunchback

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Notre Dame is an important on a variety of levels. It is one of the best examples of gothic architecture in Europe. The site itself has been important since pre-christian times, and is important in the historical events that have taken place there. It is of great cultural importance to the French.

It's possible to care about history and art as well as people, and I'm sick to death of the posturing of the posters here who are limited in that regard. Feel free to opt out of the conversation if you have nothing to add except how you are just too fucking evolved to care.

NorthReport

Political leaders of all stripes are speaking out

Nous sommes attristé·es par la nouvelle de l'incendie catastrophique qui ravage l'iconique cathédrale Notre-Dame. Nous espérons que l'incendie sera rapidement maîtrisé et qu'il n'y aura pas de blessés parmi les premiers répondants qui le combattent.

https://twitter.com/theJagmeetSingh/status/1117889438988636160

 

lagatta4

I am sick about  some of the ahistorical comments here. I have worked on human rights issues round the world, and all the important fighters I've met have also been deeply concerned about and supportive of human cultures. I'd be no less sad if it were the Taj Majal or the Forbidden City. These are great achievements of humanity. Many of the greatest cathedrals were collective efforts (and no, I'm not remotely religious).

I am deeply sad about this, but I also want to applaud the firefighters and other first responders for getting every person out, alive and well, and greatly limiting the damage.

WWWTT

Ken Burch wrote:

WWWTT wrote:

For those who live in a world where an object has more value than people, you've lost you way.

Sorry to see a historical structure get destroyed, real unfortunate event. But it's not more news worthy than someone losing an eye from the actions of riot police as far as I'm concerned.

Building codes are improving internationally, so the structures built today and in the last several decades will have a better chance of surviving longer. Structures like this catherderal are much more prone to disasters.

Lots of symbolism will be drawn into this fire i suspect.

Nobody was saying that the loss of this building is more important than the loss of people.  And this event is not a victory for secularism or anti-clericalism or anything progressive at all.

It's the destruction of a place that meant a lot to some people.  It's not as though feeling saddened about this is an endorsement of the Inquisition or the Magdalene Laundries or the predator priests.  

Thats not what the ICM wants it’s listeners to believe. According to them, this is the most important tragedy going on right now. 

Basically a work of art structure that was built for the privileged as a status symbol, on the backs of the poor illiterate brainwashed fearful for their life. 

This building served next to no purpose when built, and now only serves as a tourist attraction. 

This fire now serves as a way for Macron to tug on the fake heart strings of French voters to rebound in the polls. It’s now a great platform for Macron to make grandiose passionate speeches about how he will save the heart and sole of France.  

Same could be said about the 2014 world cup in Brazil. Lots and lots of money was spent to entertain those who already have wealth while people suffer in its shadow. 

That reminds me, how’s Brazilian politics going so far?

WWWTT

Lagatta wrote

I'd be no less sad if it were the Taj Majal or the Forbidden City.

Do you think the ICM would give those other places that were built out of vanity the same news coverage?

Unionist

*

 

NorthReport

Notre Dame fire: What ‘invaluable’ treasures reside at the famed Paris cathedral

https://globalnews.ca/news/5169601/notre-dame-fire-what-invaluable-treasures-reside-at-the-famed-paris-cathedral/

Unionist

WWWTT wrote:

Lagatta wrote

I'd be no less sad if it were the Taj Majal or the Forbidden City.

Do you think the ICM would give those other places that were built out of vanity the same news coverage?

Interesting question.

JERUSALEM'S AL-AQSA MOSQUE FIRE BURNS AT THE SAME TIME AS FLAMES ENGULF NOTRE DAME CATHEDRAL IN PARIS

NorthReport
NorthReport
NorthReport
eastnoireast

like timebandit, i'm decidely un god-centric, but can still appreciate beauty and magic, and they exist in these places.

at it's worst, organized religion is a grand tool of control, subjugation and warmongering.  at it's best, it's about community, and an attempt to understand the universe and our place in it.

that being said, i think it's fair to ask "who benefits" when something like this happens.  it's not like there isn't a track record of large iconic structures in imperial countries succumbing to terrible events in questionable circumstances, with swift and far-reaching implications that don't benefit the masses, shall we say. 

regardless of how/why this may have happened, (and that is important as well - especially as we are told to not even think about it) - keep your eye on the ball...  who _will benefit from this?

WWWTT wrote:

Building codes are improving internationally, so the structures built today and in the last several decades will have a better chance of surviving longer. Structures like this catherderal are much more prone to disasters.

well, some things have improved, but overall i think that statement is simplistic at best.  there's a shit ton of utter crap being built with toxic, unsustainable, resource intensive materials that will all be in the landfill in 50 years, and the waste, energy, and resource use while building is staggering.  building materials account for like half of world garbage. 

todays builders are much more follow-the-instructions than fully understanding or caring about what they are doing, than the master techs of yesteryear, or even last year.

i doubt there will be much left of anything built in the last 20 years that's around in even 300 years, even if there is a functioning society still extant to maintain them.  850 years, built of stone, wood, and a bit of metal flashing?  not so much.

peace.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

I just hope the Rose Window survived or can be recreated:   

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Unionist wrote:

WWWTT wrote:

Lagatta wrote

I'd be no less sad if it were the Taj Majal or the Forbidden City.

Do you think the ICM would give those other places that were built out of vanity the same news coverage?

Interesting question.

JERUSALEM'S AL-AQSA MOSQUE FIRE BURNS AT THE SAME TIME AS FLAMES ENGULF NOTRE DAME CATHEDRAL IN PARIS

Thanks for posting that link.  They apparently got the fire under control fairly quickly in that instance.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Ken Burch wrote:

I just hope the Rose Window survived or can be recreated:   

No, it’s gone. They will probably recreate it, but it’s still an incredible loss. The interior is intact and they saved the art inside. 2/3 of the roof is gone, so is the spire. 

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Charles Negre - The Vampire, portrait of Henri le Secq on the towers of Notre-Dame, Paris, 1853

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Gargoyle, Notre Dame. Photo: Pierre-Yves Petit. c.1920

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

swallow swallow's picture

Would be good to see more efforts and support from government at preservation of historical heritage, like the Brazilian archives that recently burned, and like Notre Dame. The cathedral has been an evolving and not static structure for a long time, and it’s worth considering that aspect when rebuilding. Meanwhile, the fire risk at historic churches, other religious and non-religious gathering places that build community is high here too. 

NorthReport

At this point there is no indication it was arson.

One thing we can always count on now in situations like this  

Right-wing pundits are already spreading conspiracy theories about the Notre Dame fire

https://www.indy100.com/article/notre-dame-cathedral-fire-right-wing-conspiracy-muslims-islamophobia-8872216

robbie_dee

Timebandit wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

I just hope the Rose Window survived or can be recreated:   

No, it’s gone. They will probably recreate it, but it’s still an incredible loss. The interior is intact and they saved the art inside. 2/3 of the roof is gone, so is the spire. 

Latest report is that all three Rose windows have been saved! The losses of other treasures are still likely going to be immense, though.

Rose windows of Notre Dame are safe, but fate of other treasures is unclear (CNN).

MegB

I'm a devout atheist *snerk* and am struck by the vulnerability of our historical and architectural heritage. Yes, it represents the majesterial material glory of the Roman church that Martin Luther railed against. Yes, it's a symbol of Western religous power that is responsible for the sexual abuse, persecution and deaths of hundreds of thousands. It's also entirely possible to understand that and be saddened by the destruction of a work of architectural and engineering art. Now if the left ring finger knuckle bone of St. Francis was destroyed in the fire, I could give less than one fuck. Most of those relics where scarpered from corpses hanging from crossroads across Europe. But the rose window. That hurts. 

robbie_dee

The Archbishop of Paris is saying the rose window survived.

swallow swallow's picture

Not to divert focus, but we need more awareness and preservation of global cultural heritage. A nice campaign is to save Australia’s Djap Wurrung birthing trees, where centuries of Abirignial women have gone to give birth. The government wants to destroy the site to make way for a highway. And this site cannot be rebuilt if it’s destroyed. 

Dwembassy.com

Of course there are comparable sites in what is now Canada but which predate Canada. 

Headlines on the Notre Dame fire are saying things like “emotion and solidarity.” Perhaps disaster will also help bring people together in community mourning. That means something. 

NorthReport
NorthReport

Notre Dame can rise again: Photos of great cathedrals that have been rebuilt after fire and war

Notre Dame is one in a long line of cathedrals that have been ravaged by fire, war or worse

https://calgaryherald.com/news/world/a-look-at-great-cathedrals-that-have-been-lost-to-fire-and-war/wcm/462b0531-4291-4664-a381-84e84fbbfc41

Sean in Ottawa

I did not write in this thread as I was not on babble due to other commitments yesterday.

No matter -- the posts of Timebandit, Lagatta and Meg said so well anything that I could have wanted to say. Thank you to all three of you.

I saw this cathedral when I was 16. I think it is good that it will be restored and that they saved so much by stopping the fire from destroying everything and by removing things. When it comes to cost, and art in society, the idea that there is a choice between support for things like this today and the needs of people is a false choice.

Misfit Misfit's picture

I agree with Sean, MegB, lagatta, TB et al.

Notre Dame is an architectural marvel of immense historical, cultural, and religious significance. It is a major tourist attraction on a global scale.

We all know that the Roman Catholic Church has a dark history as well as Christianity in general. Those topics are very appropriate subject material in other threads dedicated to those issues. This thread is not one of them.

lagatta4

I absolutely agree with the preservation and attemps of restoration of locations of Indigenous cultural importance, anywhere in the world. That should be obvious in my posting history - and I have worked at an Indigenous cultural organisation for over 20 years. I mentioned some non-Western world cultural treasures just to point out that they are of equal importance, and cities date back thousands of years before Paris in the fertile crescent, China and the Indian subcontinent; moreover, societies considered "primitive" are often just as complex in linguistic and social organisation terms.

There are reasons this site in the middle of the Seine is viewed as important that have little to do with French Imperialism in North or West Africa, Southeast Asia or the Pacific Island.

jatt_1947 jatt_1947's picture
NorthReport

A few preliminary details about the investigation into the cause contrasted with the many looney tunes conspiracy theories that are inevitable in situations like this

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/live-news/notre-dame-cathedral-fire-dozens-investigating-notre-dame-fire-cause-today-2019-04-17-live-updates/

lagatta4

That was very interesting about the god Vulcan statue. I'm sure there must have been some kind of monuments erected (or built up) by the Parisii, who burnt down their own towns rather than leaving them to the Romans: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parisii_(Gaul) And as that people were also relatively late in arriving at such a strategic western European site, there must have been other peoples there earlier on...

WWWTT

Yes this is all very interesting! Also pisses me off even more because the church back at the time probably knew about these other followings, their structures, culture, art etc etc. And intentionally buried it so that it would be forgoton and replaced with christianity.

What I find ironic is that some institutions of today (in the west) are treating christianity heritage better than what the christian hierarchy treated existing and previous cultures hundreds of years ago.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

Uh, this was common. Xtian churches often built on pagan holy sites. The Romans did it before them, so don’t get too torqued on their behalf a thousand years on. 

WWWTT

Fair enough Time Bandit. 

But wouldn’t it be ironic if this cathedral was completely destroyed, and out of the ashes and rubble, many artifacts and the foundation of an even more ancient structure was found? Which would be rebuilt?

NorthReport

Possible explanation for what caused the fire.

Short-circuit likely caused Notre Dame fire: police official

 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/short-circuit-likely-caused-notre-dame-fire-police-official-1.4385775

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

No, because that’s not what ironic means. 

You’re assuming that Ile de la Cite hasn’t been extensively examined. It has. 

Rikardo

I thought of Charlie Hebdo, and "Je suis Charlie".  Is it:" Je suis ND" ? (I haven't heard that)  The French still think like Napoleon. Paris Centre du Monde.  The centre of l'Etoile district is the celebration momument (Arc) of Napolean's Triumphs with 3 million dead for Glory/la Gloire de la Patrie.  After the Christian West's wars even before 9/11, on Moslem North Africa and Middle East don't expect many of those whose many ancient mosques have been destroyed by bombs Made in France, to cry for a magnificent church the French can easily afford to repair.

NDPP

Escobar: Now Comes the Notre Dame of Billionaires

https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-04-17/escobar-now-comes-notre-dame-b...

"...The French state's proposal to minimize the ordeal; organize a beneficent lottery. That is, privatize what is a state commitment and obligation. So yes: Sarkozy and Macron, their whole administrations are directly and indirectly responsible for the fire. Pinault (Gucci, St Laurent) pledged 100 million euros from his personal fortune for the restoration. Arnault (Louis Vuitton, Moet Hennessy) doubled down, pledging 200 million euros.

So why not privatize this damn fine piece of real estate - disaster capitalism style? Welcome to Notre Dame luxury condo, hotel and attached mall."

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