Olmert: "Israel must return land"

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contrarianna
Olmert: "Israel must return land"

 

contrarianna

Olmert, his political career over, says what would be political suicide for a US candidate for high office to utter:

quote:

Olmert: Israel must hand back land for peace with Palestinians and Syria.
Outgoing PM says in newspaper interview there will be no deals without withdrawing from 'almost all' land captured in 1967 war
....
The outgoing prime minister of Israel, Ehud Olmert, has said his country will have to withdraw from "almost all" the land it captured in the 1967 war and divide Jerusalem in order to agree long-awaited peace deals with the Palestinians and Syria.

[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/29/israelandthepalestinians.syr...

And:


quote:

Olmert laments 'evil wind of extremism' in Israel

By KARIN LAUB, Associated Press Writer Sun Sep 28, 4:41 PM ET

Outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Olmert warned Sunday that an "evil wind of extremism" is threatening Israel's democracy. Without naming any specific group, he complained that extremists are undermining "the ability of those in charge in Israel to make decisions."

Despite Sunday's forceful words, Olmert and his predecessors failed to live up to a 2003 promise to the U.S. to take down dozens of outposts. Critics of the government also say Israeli police and military often ignore settler violence.

"The radical extremists in the right-wing camp understand that the government is just too afraid to confront them," said Yariv Oppenheimer, leader of the settlement watchdog group Peace Now.


[url=http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080928/ap_on_re_mi_ea/ml_israel_palestinian...

Cueball Cueball's picture

That asshole had a couple of years to do something about that and all he did was get his country involved in that stupid war in Lebanon.

DrConway

Just makes you wanna slam your head onto your desk, doesn't it?

Doug

quote:


Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]That asshole had a couple of years to do something about that and all he did was get his country involved in that stupid war in Lebanon.[/b]

Yitzhak Rabin found out what happens when you try that, so I can't say I entirely blame Olmert.

al-Qa'bong

Maybe the Zionists should return all of Palestine and return to the site of the ancient Jewish kingdom on the shores of the [url=http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/cook091008.html]Caspian Sea[/url].

quote:

"But once I started looking at the evidence, I discovered that the kingdoms of David and Solomon were legends.

"Similarly with the exile. In fact, you can't explain Jewishness without exile. But when I started to look for history books describing the events of this exile, I couldn't find any. Not one.

"That was because the Romans did not exile people. In fact, Jews in Palestine were overwhelmingly peasants and all the evidence suggests they stayed on their lands."

Instead, he believes an alternative theory is more plausible: the exile was a myth promoted by early Christians to recruit Jews to the new faith. "Christians wanted later generations of Jews to believe that their ancestors had been exiled as a punishment from God."

So if there was no exile, how is it that so many Jews ended up scattered around the globe before the modern state of Israel began encouraging them to "return"?

Dr. Sand said that, in the centuries immediately preceding and following the Christian era, Judaism was a proselytizing religion, desperate for converts. "This is mentioned in the Roman literature of the time."

Jews traveled to other regions seeking converts, particularly in Yemen and among the Berber tribes of North Africa. Centuries later, the people of the Khazar kingdom in what is today south Russia would convert en masse to Judaism, becoming the genesis of the Ashkenazi Jews of central and eastern Europe.

Dr. Sand pointed to the strange state of denial in which most Israelis live, noting that papers offered extensive coverage recently to the discovery of the capital of the Khazar kingdom next to the Caspian Sea.

Ynet, the website of Israel's most popular newspaper, Yedioth Ahronoth, headlined the story: "Russian archaeologists find long-lost Jewish capital." And yet none of the papers, he added, had considered the significance of this find to standard accounts of Jewish history.

One further question is prompted by Dr. Sand's account, as he himself notes: if most Jews never left the Holy Land, what became of them?

"It is not taught in Israeli schools but most of the early Zionist leaders, including David Ben Gurion [Israel's first prime minister], believed that the Palestinians were the descendants of the area's original Jews. They believed the Jews had later converted to Islam."


DrConway

That seems reasonable, given how Europe over the centuries became Christian because of conversions over time.

Policywonk

While there were Jews living in parts of Europe, North Africa and as far east as India even before the Roman Empire, they were there primarily as traders and merchants. While there may have been a conversion of Khazar royalty and nobility at least, genetic evidence shows that the Khazars are not the origin of Ashkenazi Jews, who probably developed from small colonies in central Europe in the early middle ages.

Jews continued to live in Palestine through the decline and fall of the Roman Empire, and afterwards. Doubtless some converted to Christianity and Islam. Many were massacred along with Muslims during the Crusades, particularly when Jerusalem was captured in 1099 by the first Crusade. Considering the conflict and migration across the region over the centuries it is no wonder that Jews were in a minority until the Zionist movement of the early 20th century.

just one of the...

Ahh...the Khazar myth, another staple of revisionist historians, holocaust skeptics and other characters.

For any confused parties, the Khazars were a small Turkic group, mostly gone today, who took up a fascination with Judaism after being sandwiched between two powerful empires - one Muslim and the other Christian - and chose Judaism to avoid offending either, and for commercial and political security. The majority of modern Jews don't have lineages tracing back to them. The arguments in this book have already been made and long discredited by historians, genealogies, and genetic tests.

Tell me al Q', is it possible for you to discuss Israel's rejection and dehumanization of the Palestinian people without this extra crap?

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Yes, there really isn't a good reason to bring in the Khazar thing. It's a well-known antisemitic slur.

Supporters of Palestinian self-determination don't need to argue that Jews have no connection at all with Palestine. And using the Khazar slur simply gives right-wing Israeli apologists something to tar the Palestinian support community with.

You hurt your cause by going there, Al.

DrConway

quote:


Originally posted by just one of the concerned:
[b]Ahh...the Khazar myth, another staple of revisionist historians, holocaust skeptics and other characters.[/b]

Please excuse me while I die laughing at this piss-poor attempt to derail the discussion.

just one of the...

quote:


Originally posted by Ken Burch:
[b]Yes, there really isn't a good reason to bring in the Khazar thing. It's a well-known antisemitic slur.[/b]

Cueball Cueball's picture

Calling it an anti-semitic slur, is way over-reaching the case. Disputing or arguing a different historical reality, is not antisemetism just because it conflicts with Israel's national ideologies, or Jewish traditional beliefs.

The first time I read the stuff about the Khazrs it was in Arthur Koestler's "13th Tribe" -- I don't consider Arthur Koestler an anti-semite. A lot of it is based in Soviet era archaeology, and analysis, so its not clear if it is entirely unpoliticized, either. Its all pretty interesting really, but the actual origins of the more recent Jewish immigrants to Palestine has no bearing on the political issues. It is not as if Ashkenazi Jews would have more right to displace Palestinians, if they could produce geneologies that place thier ancestors in Jerusalem at the time of Nebachanezer.

I don't think the actual origin of the Ashkenazi Jews is really relevant to the present day conflict.

Sure, I guess its ok to point out once and a while that the Israeli "national identity", just like all national identities, is partly based on mythology, with tenuous links to reality. The origins of the Ashkenazi are various. This has no more political traction, really, than the idea that there is no such thing as a "Palestinian people" because there was no country called Palestine prior to the creation of Israel: but Palestinians exist, nonetheless.

But this stuff is really anthropology, not politics. It is interesting that this is being published in Israel right now.

[ 18 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

DrConway

The Soviets, for a while, wanted to promote [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Birobidzhan]Birobidzhan[/url] as a "new socialist Jewish Homeland", or some variant thereof.

[ 18 October 2008: Message edited by: DrConway ]

Cueball Cueball's picture

A fact that serves to show how such innocent anthropological hypothesis, can serve ends such as antisemetism.

[ 18 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ]

al-Qa'bong

quote:


Originally posted by just one of the concerned:
[b]Ahh...the Khazar myth, another staple of revisionist historians, holocaust skeptics and other characters....

Tell me al Q', is it possible for you to discuss Israel's rejection and dehumanization of the Palestinian people without this extra crap?[/b]


This is the first I've heard of any "Khazar myth."

I assumed that an Israeli historian named Shlomo Sand would be above accusations of antisemitism, but go figure.

What I found most interesting about this article is the hypothesis that today's Palestinians may be descended from Hebrews who once lived in the area.

[ 18 October 2008: Message edited by: al-Qa'bong ]

Cueball Cueball's picture

I kind of figured that went without saying. Many historians have pointed out this likelyhood before.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

quote:


Originally posted by Cueball:
[b]

I don't think the actual origin of the Ashkenazi Jews is really relevant to the present day conflict.

[ 18 October 2008: Message edited by: Cueball ][/b]


That's my main point.

500_Apples

What's his excuse for being a bit late on his proclamations?

Cueball Cueball's picture

The military aparatus of the Israeli state is no longer in the hands of the civilian government.

Papal Bull

Ah, I study Russian stuff. Pax Khazarica is certainly an interesting period in early E. European history.