Poland to Ban Communist Symbols
November 24, 2009 - 2:00pm
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From Der Spiegel: Poland to Ban Communist Symbols
This is the problem with governments (left, right, or moderate) regulating political speech (whether the speech is from the right or from the left) by labeling it "hate speech"...and then banning it. The obvious danger is that those in power use such laws to ham-handedly shut down political ideas and opponents -- rather than use the force of argument in the "marketplace of ideas".
It's a terrible precedent (and it follows Germany's insane attempt to ban the publication of Mein Kampf, etc.).
They should rot in hell.
You been to see No exit, again Unionist? I can't bear an alternative explanation for your remark.
No knock-offs either.
I think an extensive ban on communist symbols will be over-ruled by the European Court. A ban on just the hammer and sickle could possibly be accepted by the court if the government could demonstrate that this symbol is being used for purposes such as causing violence by communist supporters.
They should rot in hell.
Given that hell is imaginary, that is a decidedly unsatisfactory remedy. I'd just settle for seeing all such laws wiped from the books. But, the more "hate laws" that get passed like this, the greater their acceptability will become.
I think an extensive ban on communist symbols will be over-ruled by the European Court.
What about a library carrying Mein Kampf? And, since the Nazi Swastika and the Communist Hammer and Sickle are both soaked in the blood of millions of innocents, on what principled (non-political) basis can one be banned and the other permitted?
It's dangerous for governments to ban any political symbols.
It's dangerous for governments to ban any political symbols.
I think that depends a bit on the degree that they enforce the ban and whether or not it will extend to the propagation of communist/socialist idealogies.
Being of Polish descent I can't say that I'm very surprised by this. Talking to people who experienced the repression of communist Poland, a large number of them shy away from anything closely resembling socialism out of fear that it goes hand in hand with repressive governments. If the ban were to inhibit speech related to communism/socialism or if it prevented these movements from developing new symbols it would be very problematic.
But if it is limited to classic symbols of Polish communism I think there could be reason for allowance. For a lot of people these could be symbols that represent subservience and intimidation. I understand why they wouldn't want to see such symbols posted in public.
They should shut their eyes then. As they did (other than some brave partisans, many of them communists and socialists, and some ordinary families who risked their lives to shelter their neighbours and friends) from 1939 to 1945. If it offends their sensibilities. Yes, p-sto, my family is from there too. What's left of it.
Poland poses an interesting question about what it means to be 'European' wrt the European Union. Poland, an increasingly fundamentalist Christian state with attendant totalitarian politics, is an EU member, while Turkey, who have been trying to embody a secularized, cosmopolitan nation, have repeatedly been denied membership.
But if it is limited to classic symbols of Polish communism I think there could be reason for allowance. For a lot of people these could be symbols that represent subservience and intimidation. I understand why they wouldn't want to see such symbols posted in public.
As a communist who understands the Polish mixture of "anti-communism" and anti-Russian nationalism, I can understand your "allowance" point. Banning symbols relating specifically to the Polish regime (the old coat of arms) and also Soviet-specific symbols like the Soviet coat of arms and the Soviet rendition of the hammer-and-sickle (face it, serious leftists these days are for workers and not "workers and peasants") might be a compromise, but banning the plain red flag (like some US states do) would be idiotic. Like you said, "if it prevented these movements from developing new symbols."
...but banning the plain red flag (like some US states do) would be idiotic.
Which US states ban plain red flags??
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_flag
During the First Red Scare in the United States, many U.S. states passed laws forbidding the flying of red flags, including Minnesota, South Dakota, and Oklahoma. Most of these statutes have been repealed by state legislatures, but an Oklahoma statute still provides that flying "any red flag or other emblem or banner, indicating disloyalty to the Government of the United States or a belief in anarchy or other political doctrines or beliefs, whose objects are either the disruption or destruction of organized government, or the defiance of the laws of the United States or of the State of Oklahoma" is a felony with a possible 10 year prison sentence and a $1,000 fine.[11] The constitutionality of this statute is in question but has not been tested in the courts to date.
So, no state outright bans red flags.
Lots of Polish leftists see that as a sign of Russian domination and not as a sign of "Communist oppression."
Yes, even that flag could be safely flown in Oklahoma without fear of government prosecution.
You could not be more wrong. I'm sorry if I've decontextualized your remark by isolating it as I've done. "Peasants" may be a clumsy and awkward term, but those who support ordinary working people will always support ordinary farmers. It's a natural alliance that Conservatives and other misanthropes have moved heaven and earth to break up. There's no need for progressives to join THAT reactionary choir.
Carry on.
Incidently, the Czech youth communists were banned, then finally allowed to legally exist, after the communist led czech peace movement opened a can of whup ass on the right wing czech politicians.
Have Polish communists given someone a political pounding? know what Im sayin?
You could not be more wrong. I'm sorry if I've decontextualized your remark by isolating it as I've done. "Peasants" may be a clumsy and awkward term, but those who support ordinary working people will always support ordinary farmers.
Actually, in the sphere of agriculture in advanced capitalist countries I'm more in line with supporting farm workers's struggles (and their proliferation) than I am with small-scale "family farmers," especially those with employees. I can understand the need to maintain the hammer-and-sickle imagery (and related cross-class solidarity) in the Third World, though.
I prefer hammers, tongs (clerical workers like many service workers), and rifles (obvious reasons) myself, having yet to decide on a symbol for professional workers.
Carry on.
The problem with "family farming" is that exploitation relations still exist: the boss just happens to be the father, appropriating surplus "chore" labour from his wife and surplus "farm" labour from the kids.
My two nephews like playing Call of Duty, and there is a segment of the game where the old Soviet anthem is played. He sings his own words to it with an operatic voice. He sings, "LIIII-za MinEEEEll-i" and hums the rest. I'm not even sure he knows who Liza Minelli is. Kids.
Have Polish communists given someone a political pounding? know what Im sayin?
It's illegal to advocate the abolition of private property. The communist organization there was allowed to exist probably because its documents don't mention it.
Never realized the divisions in the left ran so deep.
What does division have to do with the topic of symbols?
Umm, you've been having some thread drift...
Ya, they needed more cops and private security goons to protect the oligarchs newly acquired fortunes after they stole the common good.
They should shut their eyes then. As they did (other than some brave partisans, many of them communists and socialists, and some ordinary families who risked their lives to shelter their neighbours and friends) from 1939 to 1945. If it offends their sensibilities. Yes, p-sto, my family is from there too. What's left of it.
No doubt Poland is about to ban Christian symbols, too.
Have Polish communists given someone a political pounding? know what Im sayin?
It's illegal to advocate the abolition of private property. The communist organization there was allowed to exist probably because its documents don't mention it.
The claim in the Czech Republic was, I think, that the youth Communist organization advocated violent overthrow of the regime there. It was a lie with legal standing which was, eventually, overturned. I think you are mistaken in your assessment of the Czech situation/experience.
------------------
I appreciate your remarks about avoiding fairy tales regarding idyllic family farms and focussing on farm workers. In fact, the Liberals and Conservatives alike have, steadily, increased the number of (virtually) rightless farm labourers, many from Mexico, coming to Canada as "guest workers" (what a fucking euphemism, eh?). There have been efforts to organize them into unions, with Manitoba having a first. However, the bosses have almost all of the cards.
Right wingers would like nothing better than a large pool of virtual agricultural slaves to bring down the wages of other workers.
BTW, do you have any opinions about the NFU ... or have we discussed them already?
I appreciate your remarks about avoiding fairy tales regarding idyllic family farms and focussing on farm workers. In fact, the Liberals and Conservatives alike have, steadily, increased the number of (virtually) rightless farm labourers, many from Mexico, coming to Canada as "guest workers" (what a fucking euphemism, eh?). There have been efforts to organize them into unions, with Manitoba having a first. However, the bosses have almost all of the cards.
Right wingers would like nothing better than a large pool of virtual agricultural slaves to bring down the wages of other workers.
Agreed. But I live in an agricultural area and almost no "family farmers" employ farm labour. I am not denying that there are farmers who do. I'm just saying that there are vast areas of the country where they don't. On the contrary, almost all of them have "off-farm" jobs so they can keep farming.
I once overheard a conversation between a couple of Saskatchewan farmers about "scabs". I was perplexed for a moment but then I remembered that both of them worked at the local potash mine (in addition to farming) and that they were on strike. There's hope for farmer-labour solidarity yet!
If you look at Canadian political voting patterns then you will see, very clearly, how right wing parties like the Conservatives have appropriated the support of many farmers and rural voters who once, rightly, belonged to the left. Divide and rule has ever been the motto of tyrants and the status quo.
If you look at Canadian political voting patterns then you will see, very clearly, how right wing parties like the Conservatives have appropriated the support of many farmers and rural voters who once, rightly, belonged to the left. Divide and rule has ever been the motto of tyrants and the status quo.
Most farmers in Sask and Alta have very large farms that require large amounts of capital for equipment and fuel and even if closely held they are all corporations. The farmers left standing in our era are the ones who have adapted well to capitalism so they are naturally aligned with the conservative party. Even in Sask the NDP has not won many rural seats for at least a generation, let alone in Alta where they never have.
Its been a very very long time since the majority of farmers were socialists not capitalists. To be a farmer requires access to large amounts of capital even if you are someone who inherited a farm and works off the farm to support the family farm operations.
It would have been left wing predecessors to today's NDP, mostly, that got farmer votes in the past.
So the NFU is of no interest to you?
I like the NFU very much I just don't think that they are the majority voice on the prairies. This is not of course what I would like but rather an opinion about the state of affairs in the rural west.
Wait until SaskaTories pull a Grant Devine of things out there. They'll swing NDP again.
Fidel the NDP has not had success in rural Sask since before Devine came to power. The reason why the federal NDP has a hard time wining seats in the province is because they have cut the cities into pieces and added those pieces to rural ridings.
Anyway that is thread drift.
Banning symbols is a useless exercise that if anything only gives the banned symbols more cache when used hatefully. If we are banning symbols then lets start with the eagle. The US is the latest in a long string of empires to use the symbol. If anything should be banned I vote we start with it since it has the longest history of brutality attached to it.
That'd be news to my mom. My dad liked to tell the story of the guy from the RM who once came to the farm and asked mom, "Where's the boss?"
"You're talking to her" was her reply.
Maybe, but if you flew that flag you couldn't be sure that someone wouldn't burn a cross on your lawn.
Gerrymandering in Saskatchewan Apparently it was alleged that the ridings were re-defined to help the NDP and Liberals in Saskatchewan. It doesn't appear to have worked if that was the case. And then more electoral boundaries were rigged up in order to shut the NDP out of Saskatchewan.
More evidence that we need fair voting across Canada. One Canadian one vote now![/drift]
I know, but I think the Czech constitution itself explicitly prohibits the advocacy of eliminating private property, not just the usual "violent overthrow" stuff.
You're most welcome.
Right wingers would like nothing better than a large pool of virtual agricultural slaves to bring down the wages of other workers.
Interestingly enough, actually, countries like Saudi Arabia and Dubai actually have "guest workers" as the bulk of their workforce in order to allow the ruling classes to not proletarianize the rest of the indigenous population (the rest being unemployed lumpen). In a way, the nationalist junk Three Worlds Theory posed by Mao had a point, but directed at the wrong countries.
You should come over to RevLeft some time and post there.
I'm afraid I don't have time to visit the site, but I'm guessing that it's an organized union for agricultural workers. If so, then it has my support.
According to US-based Trotskyists, the former USSR was state capitalist not communist. What are they worried about then in Czech Repooblica?
That's pretty close to a clear admission that you don't know much about farming in Canada.
Just visited: an organization for family farmers. In any event, please refer back to my post above on my support for farm workers over "family farmers."
And "appeal to the electorate" has ever been the motto of all political parties at all levels. At some point, the Conservatives evidently did that better than the left, unless you're making an accusation of ballot stuffing or something.
The working class and its allies shouldn't be fooled into voting for big business and right wing parties. Period. To use the metaphor of the late Tommy Douglas, mice shouldn't vote for cats.
Of course, part of the right wing/status quo ideology is the denial that there are mice and cats at all.
The fact that many people are sucked into voting this way is the basic problem of bourgeois democracy for the left. If you are of the view that this is a good thing, then you're probably on the wrong discussion board. Snort.
The working class and its allies shouldn't be fooled into voting for big business and right wing parties. Period. To use the metaphor of the late Tommy Douglas, mice shouldn't vote for cats.
What do mice do when all the parties look feline?
That's the basic problem, isn't it? Cats, cats that call themselves mice, and mice that take the side of cats. The remedy, of course, is to get together with other mice, and with the rats, squirrles, chipmunks, gophers, porcupines, beavers, hamsters, gerbils, guinea pigs, degus, chinchillas, prairie dogs, ground hogs and other rodents that easily outnumber the cats.
There are even a few enlightened cats that may come over to the side of the mice and the other rodents. But it's up to the mice to evaluate such catty claims.
Simple, really.
I'm of the view that people don't "get sucked in" to voting this way. What a shock that these gullible yokels who fell for the Conservative city slickers aren't onside with you. I bet those shameless Conservative hucksters flattered them into believing they could make their own decisions! LOL! Imagine that! Maybe when donkeys walk upright, eh?
Simple, really.
Yes, it really is simple if we follow the old line party funding to its sources, like Bay Street. The very rightwing Vancouver make-believe think tank never supports the NDP's agenda for social democracy. The leaked Raitt tape didn't mention banksters threatening to cut funding to the NDP if they forced an election.
If Canadian mice don't believe their mouseholes are quite big enough yet, then make darned good and sure not to vote NDP. You'll get your larger mouseholes guaranteed.
You are, of course, completely missing the point Snert.
Why do low income people vote for rich people that will attack the poor? Are they stupid? Of course not. Your remarks lead me to believe that that's what you think I believe. But I believe no such thing. The trillion dollar marketing and advertising industry proves that it is not that people are stupid; there are much greater forces at work than that. It's the fantasy of abolutist free will that you're tripping over. It's a common mistake.
All of this seems to be of no concern to you. Instead of being a matter of concern, it's a matter of amusement for you. In other words, you're on the other side of the social divide.
Like I said, you're probably on the wrong discussion board.
But let's suppose, for the sake of argument, that I've got this all wrong. Where do you stand on the fact of social class? Let's start with that. Then I can be amused by your reply. Ciao.
I'm of the view that people don't "get sucked in" to voting this way. What a shock that these gullible yokels who fell for the Conservative city slickers aren't onside with you. I bet those shameless Conservative hucksters flattered them into believing they could make their own decisions! LOL! Imagine that! Maybe when donkeys walk upright, eh?
So does this have anything remotely to so with Poland banning communist symbols.
But on the subject of prairie voters seems to me all those city slicker advertising people are sure sucking us. They have us believing that advertising and spin sells everything. Imagine we have a whole entertainment and sports culture built on the advertising dollar and it doesn't work.
They didn't have to ban the soldiarity movement in Poland. The Gdansk shipyards are mothballed, and Lech Walesa isn't even a dues payiing union leader anymore since siding with Maggie and against unionized coal miners in Britain.
Well, to get back to the subject of the thread, I noted, way back when, that the Czech (youth) Communists were the subject of state persecution following the successes of the Czech peace movement. i suggested that some similar factor might be coming to bear in Poland in the current instance. Anyone know domestic Polish politics well and can address this?
What about a library carrying Mein Kampf? And, since the Nazi Swastika and the Communist Hammer and Sickle are both soaked in the blood of millions of innocents, on what principled (non-political) basis can one be banned and the other permitted?
It's dangerous for governments to ban any political symbols.
And since the $, £, and the † are soaked in the blood of hundreds of millions (and counting) of innocents ... on what "principled basis" can these symbols be permitted?
What about a library carrying Mein Kampf? And, since the Nazi Swastika and the Communist Hammer and Sickle are both soaked in the blood of millions of innocents, on what principled (non-political) basis can one be banned and the other permitted?
It's dangerous for governments to ban any political symbols.
And since the $, £, and the † are soaked in the blood of hundreds of millions (and counting) of innocents ... on what "principled basis" can these symbols be permitted?
So, are you for banning some symbols or not?
Good point, Sven. The Poles seem unconcerned about fascist symbols or anti-semitism.
It's obvious km818 is pointing out the hypocrisy of isolating particular symbols for criticism.
It may look weird to those who only know about communism from books and movies, but Polish people may well see it as a path to emotional healing. I have been talking about this subject with Polish co-workers, the stories they were telling were truly frightening. After the Soviet occupation of Poland in September 1939, massive deportations began, which continued into the winter.
The typical picture was like this - an NKVD division would seal off a town or a city district and start breaking into the houses, as per lists they had. People would be given 20 minutes to take some clothing, after that they would be lead into the assembly points, from which they would be further transported to the railway centers and placed into the cattle cars for a long treck east.
Hundreds of thousands of Polish men and women were deported, very few came back. When Germans occupied Ukraine in 1941, the only remaining source of coal for Stalin was in the north of Russia, towards the Arctic ocean, I do not remember the name of that region.
Prior to WW2, the coal deposits were not being developed there, as it is in permafrost, but in 1941-42 the Soviets had quickly built the railroad and greatly expanded the mines. Tens of thousands of Polish men died during construction of that railroad and also working in those mines. Many have been transferred to the island in the Arctic ocean, either Franz-Joseph or Spitzbergen, I do not remember. One of those islands has coal.
Many forced-laborers there were Poles and all died there. Hundreds of thousands of Poles have been deported to Siberia, very few came back.
The same picture was in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania, almost a million people have been deported to Siberia, after those countries have been occupied by Stalin in June 1940. Every June those communities in Canada commemorate the anniversary of that genocide. The largest one takes place in Toronto at Queens Park, but, of course, you would never hear about it in the media, which probably does not want to "tarnish" the image of Stalin, "our ally" during WW2.
Here is an illustrative example - the Polish underground had been able to maintain a functional organization under the German occupation; two Warsaw uprisings are a good illustration of that. They have been maintaining a steady radio contact with the exile government in London throughout the German occupation. But this was no longer possible after the Soviet Army started advancing into Poland in 1944. NKVD units, which were moving in on the heels of the regular army, have been rounding up young Polish men and shooting them by the thousand.
That's how Stalin was clearing the way for his plans for the post-war Poland.
From what I heard, Germans were also conducting executions, but only for the "deeds", after a due process by their military tribunals. The number of their victims is high, but, it was in proporting to the scale of guerilla warfare conducted by the Polish Home Army, as well as other hostile underground activities.
After the Soviet Army had established full control, the Soviets started building their administration, appointing collaborators to the key positions. The country had essentially been given away to the bunch of opportunits, who were willing to pledge allegiance to Stalin.
In the meantime, deportations continued by tens of thousand. And overall, Polish people have lots of reasons to "have an opinion about communism".
Personally I believe it is an overreaction to ban any symbols. People who know history and who understand the real politics, the kind you can read about on this site, would never be mislead by a bunch of misfits flashing their symbols.
In addition to that, symbols can be "misappropriated" from a "legitimate" source. Swastika, for example, is a symbol of Sun in some pre-Christian religions. It is widely displayed in East Asia, from Japan to India.
There is a festivity among Hindus, when siblings send greetings to each other; from what I heard, on that day they have to hang ornaments with swastikas on entrance doors to their dwellings. One Indian acquaintance did that in his condo apartment and he was asked by the management to remove it on the grounds that it may be offensive to others. From what he was telling me, he was truly shocked that someone may take it this far.
From what I heard, Germans were also conducting executions, but only for the "deeds", after a due process by their military tribunals. The number of their victims is high, but, it was in proporting to the scale of guerilla warfare conducted by the Polish Home Army, as well as other hostile underground activities.
I must say, I never thought I would see someone (other than a Neo-Nazi) compare Hitler favorably to Stalin. What next? A Jewish memorial to Goebbels?
That seems out of line KM1818 - Putting forth the argument that more Poles ended up dying under Soviet occupation than German does not deserve it being implied that this is a pro nazi observation.
Very nice. Nazi apologists on babble. Is it possible that they could fuck off out of here? Or would that be too rude a suggestion?
that's bullshit
That seems out of line KM1818 - Putting forth the argument that more Poles ended up dying under Soviet occupation than German does not deserve it being implied that this is a pro nazi observation.
Wikipedia says that 3,000,000 Polish Jews, out of a pre WW II total of 3,500.000, were exterminated by the Nazis. These Nazis also hunted down other 'dangerous elements' i.e. communists. Wiki also seems to conclude that about 150,000 Poles were killed by the Soviets (although the figures vary according to the source.) The number of Vietnamese and Cambodians killed by Nixon and Kissinger can only be estimated to within a million or two; hey, but, who's counting when its the defenders of fledgling democracies doing the killing?
It says a lot about Cold War propaganda that the Nazis are now 4th or 5th on the monster list of history behind Mao, Stalin, Kim Jong Il, and the Rosenbergs. R. Reagan's visit to the SS cemetery at Bitburg was one of the great propaganda coups of the 20th century.
R. Reagan's visit to the SS cemetery at Bitburg was one of the great propaganda coups of the 20th century.
Huh? It's a disgrace that the late President of the United States visited the graves and memorial honouring the Nazi dead (not simply a German cemetery but an SS cemetery) on the occassion of the 40th anniversay of the military defeat of Nazi Germany. ARound 375,000 Americans lost their lives fighting the Nazis but this monster visits the graves of the killers of his own countrymen. It's a permanent mark against the late President who, in all likelihood, was suffering from Alzheimer's Disease ... while in office.
Why does it have to be a contest of who's worst? at the same time I want to disassociate my self from Onion's argument. - I just thought insinutaing that he's a neo-nazi was a bit pre-mature.
The typical picture was like this - an NKVD division would seal off a town or a city district and start breaking into the houses, as per lists they had. People would be given 20 minutes to take some clothing, after that they would be lead into the assembly points, from which they would be further transported to the railway centers and placed into the cattle cars for a long treck east.
Hundreds of thousands of Polish men and women were deported, very few came back.
In Canada we did not murder our detainees merely sent them to prison camps in the Kootenays and stole all their land and possessions except what they could carry. When the war ended we still restricted the Japanese Canadians and it was only after the war was concluded that all their lands were sold off so they could not go back to their former way of life. How does one put historical facts into an hierarchy of evil? I personally think that once actions become evil I don't care whom is more evil than whom they all need to be treated as evil.
I will try to reply to several posts that have surfaced so far. I will get the title of a Polish book, where the horrors of Soviet occupation are described on some 300 pp. I looked through it, I even remember the author's name (Henryk Payak in the closest English rendering) It may take a couple weeks, but I will get it from a Polish acquaintance, maybe even obtain translations of several passages.
Nobody doubts in "authenticity" of mass murders in Katyn, mass deportations of Polish nationals by the NKVD is also a historical fact. I heard that the Polish victims of Stalin number half a million, just those killed and deported.
Considering that 800 thousand have been deported from the Baltic states, whose combined population was less than 7 million in those days, I find the figure of half a million far too low, but I can only go by the sources I read. And I honestly do not understand why should the description of these horros be transformed into an automatic insinuation that I am trying to whitewash one party by showing the evils of another?
This thread is about the decision to ban communist symbols in Poland, not about Hitler vs Stalin on the scale of evil. If someone would rather have the arguments reduced to shouting and labelling, I feel sorry for him. If you want to compare Hitler and Stalin and to discuss the genocide of Jews, why not start a separate thread?
But since the insinuation was made, I would like to remind to the author that the number of victims of Stalin is 60 to 70 million. Obviously, when numbers are in this range, it almost seems unreal, some may even say - no, cannot possibly be this bad! Well, just one example could help to clarify the mindset of that monster - the Soviet losses in the WW2 are estimated to be 27 million, two thirds of which are civilian.
How could that be possible? Very simple - Stalin issued orders to the troops to conduct a scorched earth policy when retreating. Quite naturally, this caused mass starvation and deaths, as nobody can survive on a barren piece of land, without livestock or produce.
Which other government in history would sacrifice their people for the sake of their own survival? Paris had been declared an open city and the population was spared the horrors of a siege, while in Leningrad a million people died of starvation during the blockade of 1941-43, plus how many millions had their health irreparably damaged and thus died an early death!
From the German point of view, their army have been doing their job, exactly what any other army would be doing in that situation, including the aerial bombings of food storage facilities. But the fact that the food was not distributed to the population in time, plus the fact that the order was given to defend the city in a hopeless situation can be squarely laid on Stalin and those around him.
They do not care even about their own people, not to mention someone else!
Red Army had been raping women and girls EVERYWHERE they came. The "nice official line" you can hear propagated by the media is that Stalin had allegedly given "permission" to rape the German (and Austrian) women and girls to create a rift between the GErman population and the Red Army soldiers and thus to prevent fraternizing and thus "sharing of ideas". But I talked to the people from Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary and they said that rapes by the Red Army were widespread there, as well. Even the girls as young as 7 were often not spared!
Someone apologist for Stalin may reply that "rapes are not gas chambers", well let's start a separate thread about gas chambers and have an exchange of opinions.
Regarding deportations, those have not been limited to the Baltic states and Poland. I talked to one man from Austria, he was rounded up and was about to be deported to Siberia, but it so happened that while he was at the detention centre, the US had issued an ultimatum to Stalin to vacate Austria in a very short period of time or to face nuclear bombing.
When Czech nationals have been parachuted from England to murder R.Heidrich, there was a court martial for those involved, among them a priest, who gave those people refuge in his church. Public could attend and see what was going on.
I have a book about WW2, it has a description of that case, there is a picture of a courtroom, the guillotine, which was used to execute those found guilty.
Does that make me an apologist for a particular party?
The first functional kidney dialysis machine in the world was made by the Dutch doctors during the German occupation. I would volunteer a guess that there would be no scientific work under the Soviet military occupation, as people would be glad to have survived a yet another day.
Again, I know that Hitler had a special policy for Jews, Gypsies, but this thread is not about that.
That's right, Onion. Our industrial and banking elite considered the Nazis to be their friends for ten years leading up to the war, during, and afterwards for many years, too.
A visit to Poland in 1990 inspired Father Patrick Desbois to search for eye witnesses to the truth. The Nazis had friends in several Eastern European countries who helped them round up Jews and Gypsies well before the Nazis' mobile death squads even arrived. And many war criminals were welcomed to North America and Latin America by open arms policies for Nazi war criminals and their Eastern European collaborators after the war.
I will try to reply to several posts that have surfaced so far.
You need to cite a source for any numbers you use.
Why are people debating here with a Nazi apologist, please?
Regarding the sources for the numbers, I do not keep track of such things. I am not a historian, whatever I read is for my general interest. I do not even edit my posts, I have no time for that.
I have attended a meeting at Queen's Park once to commemorate the anniversary of Stalin's genocide in the Baltic states and that's where I heard the number 800,000 deported.
Regarding the comment by Fidel, it is a well-known fact that Hitler was financed by the International banking elite, there are many books on this subject. I heard that the properties of I.G.Farben were considered a safe heaven from Allied bombings, as those somehow have not been touched. And so the Germans who happened to live nearby would run there instead of air-raid shelters.
Many high-ranking officials of Hitler regime have got cozy jobs with the Allied occupational administration. R.Gehlen is a good example. Many have been assisted in finding a safe heaven in Latin America.
Many German scientists and engineers have got cozy jobs in US after the war, even those who have been implicated in crimes. I do not remember the names, but there was one German engineer who was deported to Germany after he retired because it was discovered he used to work for the German scientific facility, which conducted the tests of the effects of high-altitude on camp inmates.
The complicity goes pretty high.
Regarding comments by Unionist, I guess some people have not got the brains to research historical facts and prefer to reduce everything to name-calling. Cheap stuff!
According to someone like him one is a "nazi" if he used the word "German scientist" instead of a "nazi scientist".
With such posturing one gets his brain paralyzed. Palestinians call the IDF "child murderers", Israelis call the Palestinian organization the same. I prefer to call everybody the way they call themselves, at least this way you can talk to both sides.
Anyway, I am off till next weekend, I do not even go on the Internet during weekdays.
Thanks to those members who responded in a meaningful fashion.
Yea, thanks for the meaningful comments about the repression of the current Polish regime. I love the way you stuck to the topic. Ooh Rah.
I think he's basically saying that our hand-picked guy to lead western aggression against the Russian revolution part two was a megalomaniacal psychopath. And apparently the Russians became weary of this western aggression, and a ruthless motherfucker like Stalin was needed to fend off these fascist enemies at the gates, or allow Russia to become living space for Germans, and for IBM, IG Farben, BP, Krupp, Standard Oil, Wall Street and High Street bankers etc ad nauseum. Chiang Kai-shek was supposed to do a job for liberal democracy in China around the same general period. And after murdering ten million Chinese, Maoists chased him and his US and British-backed gangsters all the way to Burma in one direction and Formosa in the other. CKS became a darling of Washington and London in Taiwan where he formed the world anticommunist league with money stolen from the Chinese people. The bastards were still funding rightwing death squads, like the Contras, well in the the 1980's.
The reson that people vote is because they are naive enough to think they live in a democracy. The reson they vote the way they do is because of the corporate propaganda they get every day from the corporate press.
I would like to say that the remark about the "due process" in reference to the treatment of insurgents on the German-occupied territories was inappropriate. How do you define a "due process" when people are fighting for their freedom against an invading/occupying power? When a Palestinian youngster got shot for throwing stones is that a "due process"? When a group of insurgents have been captured, brought before a military tribunal, sentenced to a public execution, is that a "due process"?
From the point of view of the Hague convention on the rules of the land warfare, the "franc-tireurs" have no rights against an invading / occupying army, they can be summarily executed. But for the people who are fighting for their land, the problem acquires a totally different meaning.
I would imagine nobody at this forum spends time editing their posts, and so it is inevitable that the "slips of the pen" will be happening. But even though unfortunate, this incident had helped to identify who is who on this forum. Could there be a better, more honorable way to defeat an opposing point of view by the strength of your argument? But when someone explodes into f-words and n-words, he is clearly an unstable character or has a weak mind.
Many problems that are discussed on forums like this have truly philosophical dimensions. But when you touch them in a short post, it is only inevitable that on occasion you unwittingly distort / misrepresent some aspects.
When I used the expression "due process", on the back of my mind it was against the widespread practice by the Soviet Army to round up young Polish men and to shoot them; as told to me by a former Polish co-worker, who even brought a book and read from it, as I had a hard time believing it. But, of course, this was not obvious to the other forum members, who thus had reasons to see that remark as inappropriate.
Such things can be easily sorted out through a meaningful discussion. But such discussion can only be possible if nobody is trying to intimidate others not to venture on the "prohibited grounds".
To sum up the "sidetracked portion" of this thread, I believe the financial elite was financing all parties in preparation for the war. Wars are big profit-makers, elites can sell plenty of weapons, war supplies and then profit on reconstruction loans. I heard an expression "Rotschild formula" to keep the heads of states in a dependent position. At one time the elites were financing Napoleon, helping him to wreck a good part of Europe, but when he outlived his usefullness, they switched their support and had Napoleon defeated.
I thought I mentioned that Nazi apologists should... errr...
Onion is banned on another thread. Let's move on.