Portugal

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WWWTT
Portugal

Portugal is probably one of the most socialist country in the world. But oddly has no thread on babble? (I checked back 22 pages before giving up)

Anyways, here’s the Portugal thread. 

If this thread starts to get buried, I’ll somehow work the words Corbyn, Trump or Britain into the title. 

WWWTT

Here’s Portugal’s EU election results. 

https://www.election-results.eu/national-results/portugal/2019-2024/

Out of 21 seats, 10 are socialist. And no conservatives. 

Clearly the Portuguese are mostly socialist or socialist leaning. 

WWWTT

And here’s the break down of the EU house

https://www.election-results.eu/

The socialist have 150 seats. Only the christains are ahead with 179. 

Portuguese turnout is dismal. Belgium and Luxembourg is the highest. Odd?

WWWTT

Here’s what I pulled out of the Charter of the Portuguese Republic 

Article 13
(Principle of equality)
1. All citizens possess the same social dignity and are equal before the law.
2. No one may be privileged, favoured, prejudiced, deprived of any right or exempted from any duty for reasons of ancestry, sex, race, language, territory of origin, religion, political or ideological beliefs, education, economic situation, social circumstances or sexual orientation.

Taken from here

http://www.en.parlamento.pt/Legislation/CRP/Constitution7th.pdf

 

 

WWWTT

Also check out article 55, Freedoms concerning Trade Unions. 

I hope I’m not offending supporters of the Canadian charte? Or maybe I am?

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

WWWTT wrote:

And here’s the break down of the EU house

https://www.election-results.eu/

The socialist have 150 seats. Only the christains are ahead with 179. 

Portuguese turnout is dismal. Belgium and Luxembourg is the highest. Odd?

I think a high percentage of the working force in Belgium and Luxembourg are employed in Euro-centric bureaucracies.

WWWTT

Ya that would make sense and account for some of it. I suspect there’s more to it than that. Such as Belgium people’s may very well be super fanatic supporter of Euro?

Other than that, I was hoping you’d comment on the Portuguese charter. Give it s read. 

swallow swallow's picture

Belgium had national elections the same day, so higher turnout. 

Portugal is a nice example of quietly getting on with things. Not over-rated like, oh, Britain. 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

WWWTT wrote:

Here’s Portugal’s EU election results. 

https://www.election-results.eu/national-results/portugal/2019-2024/

Out of 21 seats, 10 are socialist. And no conservatives. 

Clearly the Portuguese are mostly socialist or socialist leaning. 

Aren't the Social Democrats, for all practical purposes, a conservative party?  

WWWTT

I don’t know Ken Burch? I’ll research it now. 

WWWTT

Ok Ken it looks like you’re right! My mistake. I was going by the name only. Here’s a little more info on them
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democratic_Party_%28Portugal%29
Also they now only have 9 seats, so they lost one.
But since you have pointed out my error, it would probably be prudent on my part to read up a little on these other political parties before I comment further. Thanks

lagatta4

Portugal remains an interesting country, notably for their drugs policy - no criminalisation of users, even of heroin. Obviously this does NOT meant that they want their people to be junkies! It makes it easier to reach addicts.

And of course they also have excellent fish and white wine... A Parisian friend holidays there every summer. Alas I've never been there.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

WWWTT As a starting point and direction for the country to aspire too I found the Preamble way better than the BNA Act. 

PREAMBLE

On the 25th of April 1974 the Armed Forces Movement crowned the long resistance and reflected the deepest feelings of the Portuguese people by overthrowing the fascist regime. Freeing Portugal from dictatorship, oppression and colonialism represented a revolutionary change and the beginning of an historic turning point for Portuguese society. The Revolution restored their fundamental rights and freedoms to the people of Portugal. In the exercise of those rights and freedoms, the people’s legitimate representatives are gathered to draw up a Constitution that matches the country’s aspirations. The Constituent Assembly affirms the Portuguese people’s decision to defend national independence, guarantee citizens’ fundamental rights, establish the basic principles of democracy, ensure the primacy of a democratic state based on the rule of law and open up a path towards a socialist society, with respect for the will of the Portuguese people and with a view to the construction of a country that is freer, more just and more fraternal.

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

lagatta4 wrote:

And of course they also have excellent fish and white wine... A Parisian friend holidays there every summer. Alas I've never been there.

I had the good fortune to have my VW van blow a head gasket in Northern Portugal just over the mountains from Spain. The locals were extremely friendly and we camped beside the mechanics shop in a field while he rebuilt the engine. Because of the attitude of the people what could have been one of my worst memories is in fact one of my best memories.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

I've never been to Portugal, but I do live in/near "Little Portugal".  This means:

1.  custard tarts galore

2.  even the littlest bodega will stock frozen octopus

3.  rooster carvings everywhere

Sadly, some of the Portuguese businesses in the neighbourhood have folded since I arrived.  One, a fishmonger on Ossington, is the only fishmonger I've seen selling 2-3 different types of eel at the same time.  Another, a great little "mom and pop" grocery, recently became a hip new "no packaging" market, with predictable prices.  It's the fourth Portuguese grocery to fold in the last decade.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

WWWTT wrote:
Ok Ken it looks like you’re right! My mistake. I was going by the name only. Here’s a little more info on them https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democratic_Party_%28Portugal%29 Also they now only have 9 seats, so they lost one. But since you have pointed out my error, it would probably be prudent on my part to read up a little on these other political parties before I comment further. Thanks

It's all good.  And there's always more research that I need to do on things.

Here's one way to look at it.  The Portuguese Social Democrats are about as social democratic as the Jamaica Labour Party is labour.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

I've never been to Portugal, but I do live in/near "Little Portugal".  This means:

1.  custard tarts galore

2.  even the littlest bodega will stock frozen octopus

3.  rooster carvings everywhere

Sadly, some of the Portuguese businesses in the neighbourhood have folded since I arrived.  One, a fishmonger on Ossington, is the only fishmonger I've seen selling 2-3 different types of eel at the same time.  Another, a great little "mom and pop" grocery, recently became a hip new "no packaging" market, with predictable prices.  It's the fourth Portuguese grocery to fold in the last decade.

The only reason to post something like that is to imply that the thread you've posted it in is silly.  Do you actually feel THIS thread is silly, and if so, why?

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

I don't think it's silly at all.  It's my only connection to Portugal, and I posted it in a thread about Portugal.

WWWTT

@kropotkin

Yes the introduction to the Portuguese Republic Constitution is very powerful and well worth noting!

A part I like is one of the simplest:

TITLE II
Revision of the Constitution
Article 284
(Competence and time for revisions)
1. The Assembly of the Republic may revise the Constitution five years after the date of publication of the last ordinary revision law.
2. However, by a majority of at least four fifths of all the Members in full exercise of their office, the Assembly of the Republic may take extraordinary revision powers at any time.

And later followed by article 288 is of interest  

I have pointed out before here on babble that a huge fault (probably the biggest) with the Canadian charter is that there’s no provisions written in to change adapt and evolve it  

Change and evolution is inevitable, it has to be addressed  

 

WWWTT

Ken Burch wrote:

Mr. Magoo wrote:

I've never been to Portugal, but I do live in/near "Little Portugal".  This means:

1.  custard tarts galore

2.  even the littlest bodega will stock frozen octopus

3.  rooster carvings everywhere

Sadly, some of the Portuguese businesses in the neighbourhood have folded since I arrived.  One, a fishmonger on Ossington, is the only fishmonger I've seen selling 2-3 different types of eel at the same time.  Another, a great little "mom and pop" grocery, recently became a hip new "no packaging" market, with predictable prices.  It's the fourth Portuguese grocery to fold in the last decade.

The only reason to post something like that is to imply that the thread you've posted it in is silly.  Do you actually feel THIS thread is silly, and if so, why?

I think this comment you hi lighted is typical of Mr Magoo’s writing style/character  

Mr Magoo uses cuisine to learn/inter react with different cultures. Or through/with cuisine, learns and understands different cultures  

At first I found it humorous, but it’s not right for me to ridicule how someone chooses their perspectives. 

WWWTT

Ken Burch wrote:

WWWTT wrote:
Ok Ken it looks like you’re right! My mistake. I was going by the name only. Here’s a little more info on them https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Democratic_Party_%28Portugal%29 Also they now only have 9 seats, so they lost one. But since you have pointed out my error, it would probably be prudent on my part to read up a little on these other political parties before I comment further. Thanks

It's all good.  And there's always more research that I need to do on things.

Here's one way to look at it.  The Portuguese Social Democrats are about as social democratic as the Jamaica Labour Party is labour.

Haven’t heard of any Jamaican political parties before so I’ll take your word for it. 

From just the one link I’ve read, the social democrats used to be a more socialist political party, but somehow becam a central right of centre party. I find this odd? How the hell did this happen?

Also, there could be something lost in translation here. What I mean is the perspective of what exactly a socialist vs conservative is in Portugal compared to Canada, US and other regions. 

swallow swallow's picture

Hey, the day that foodie tangents are under attack is the day babble dies. 

I’ve been to Portugal. Some great food, and some deep fried awfulness too. But I do love that the revolutionary inheritance is so strong that the right wing party had to call themselves Social Democrats. The Socialists are the real social democrats and made a nice deal with the Left (the real left) to take power, where they govern decently and without too much drama. As long as Christiano Ronaldo doesn’t seek office that should continue!

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

I saw an amazing clip on YouTube a few years ago-it was during the anti-austerity protests in Portugal.  At one point, there was a parliamentary debate going on on the austerity measures the "Social Democratic" government was imposing.  The galleries were packed with opponents of austerity.  at a certain moment, everyone in the galleries started singing "Grandola, Vila Morena", the Carnation Revolution anthem-which I'm posting a clip of at the end of this passage.   To get the sense of that, you are going to have to picture possibly 2,000 people singing this at the top of their lungs.  There was a parliamentary sign language interpreter in the shot, and as she heard all these people singing this song, she was so moved by the song that she burst into tears and ran off camera, unable to continue translating for the moment.  As a result of the protests, the government was defeated at the next election and the austerity program was stopped.  

Here's the song.  It was the tune played on the radio, in 1974, as a signal for all antifascists to join the Portuguese army-for once, an army which fought for the people, which stood on the correct side of history-in overthrowing the fascist regime which had been in power since 1926.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=118&v=7tIcjwM_XrY'

How magical it would have been to be there on that day in 1974, or on that day a few years ago when for once, the assault on the working and kept-from-working poor was stopped.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

WWWTT wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:

Mr. Magoo wrote:

I've never been to Portugal, but I do live in/near "Little Portugal".  This means:

1.  custard tarts galore

2.  even the littlest bodega will stock frozen octopus

3.  rooster carvings everywhere

Sadly, some of the Portuguese businesses in the neighbourhood have folded since I arrived.  One, a fishmonger on Ossington, is the only fishmonger I've seen selling 2-3 different types of eel at the same time.  Another, a great little "mom and pop" grocery, recently became a hip new "no packaging" market, with predictable prices.  It's the fourth Portuguese grocery to fold in the last decade.

The only reason to post something like that is to imply that the thread you've posted it in is silly.  Do you actually feel THIS thread is silly, and if so, why?

I think this comment you hi lighted is typical of Mr Magoo’s writing style/character  

Mr Magoo uses cuisine to learn/inter react with different cultures. Or through/with cuisine, learns and understands different cultures  

At first I found it humorous, but it’s not right for me to ridicule how someone chooses their perspectives. 

Fair enough.  I responded to that too harshly.  My words there were informed by a lot of situations in which people respond to a thread they wanted to shut down by posting recipes or other comments about food.

swallow swallow's picture

The 1974 revolution in Portugal was inspired by popular revolutionary mvoements in Mozamabique, Angola and Guinea-Bissau too - African socialism inspired Portugal's peopel to topple fascism. 

Cool page on the journal Mozambique Revolution https://justseeds.org/jbbtc-65-mozambique-revolution/

JKR

WWWTT wrote:

Here’s what I pulled out of the Charter of the Portuguese Republic 
Article 13
(Principle of equality)
1. All citizens possess the same social dignity and are equal before the law.
2. No one may be privileged, favoured, prejudiced, deprived of any right or exempted from any duty for reasons of ancestry, sex, race, language, territory of origin, religion, political or ideological beliefs, education, economic situation, social circumstances or sexual orientation.

Taken from here

http://www.en.parlamento.pt/Legislation/CRP/Constitution7th.pdf

 

Portugal’s constitution seems very progressive. Much more so than Canada’s. It includes workers’s and union rights specifically. It also supports regulating the media to prevent the concentration of the media into just a few players. Unfortunately Canada is a prime example of media concentration. Their constitution also gives equal media space to unions and political parties!!

Their constitution also supports the provision of social security, public health care, public education, public housing, cultural enjoyment, etc,... It also specifically gives rights to the elderly, the disabled, youth, and consumers. 

The only qualm I have with Portugal is that standard of living does not to seem to be as high as countries like Canada and some Northern European social democratic countries. However their quality of life may be better than their economic statistics indicate? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

JKR

WWWTT wrote:

Here’s what I pulled out of the Charter of the Portuguese Republic 
Article 13
(Principle of equality)
1. All citizens possess the same social dignity and are equal before the law.
2. No one may be privileged, favoured, prejudiced, deprived of any right or exempted from any duty for reasons of ancestry, sex, race, language, territory of origin, religion, political or ideological beliefs, education, economic situation, social circumstances or sexual orientation.

Taken from here

http://www.en.parlamento.pt/Legislation/CRP/Constitution7th.pdf

Portugal’s constitution seems very progressive. Much more so than Canada’s. It includes workers’s and union rights specifically. It also supports regulating the media to prevent the concentration of the media into just a few players. Unfortunately Canada is a prime example of media concentration. Their constitution also gives equal and fair space in the media to unions and political parties!!

Their constitution also supports the provision of social security, public health care, public education, public housing, cultural enjoyment, etc,... It also specifically gives rights to the elderly, the disabled, youth, and consumers. 

The only qualm I have with Portugal is that their standard of living does not seem to be as high as some other countries like Canada, Singapore, and the Northern European social democratic countries. However maybe their quality of life may be better than their economic statistics indicate? 

WWWTT

JKR wrote:

The only qualm I have with Portugal is that their standard of living does not seem to be as high as some other countries like Canada, Singapore, and the Northern European social democratic countries. However maybe their quality of life may be better than their economic statistics indicate? 

I know for a fact that many Portuguese people are not materialistic. And I believe standard of living markers probably have a lot of materialism factored into them somehow. As well, if a large number of people are not driven to spend spend spend, this could also further drive down a consumer based economy.

My parents are from Sao Miguel, the main island of the Azores. I have many cousins there and two aunts that are still alive. And since I have not been there since 1994, my family and I will be going there for a couple weeks in the summer. When I'm there, I'll inquire about the health care social and education system. But from what I recall, it's all comparable to Canada.

JKR

Why has Portugal had relatively higher rates of emigration?

WWWTT

For my parents it was work. From what my cousins have told me over the years, decades and decades of imperial colonialism caused a huge drain on capital and human resources among other resources. Together with fascist governments, the country was intolerable and had lots of poverty  

 The government now wants Portuguese descendants to return. My 3 children and I can get our Portuguese citizenship easily enough. All I need to do is fill the paperwork and pay about $500. For my children it’s actually free believe it or not! I’m actually considering moving there. 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

WWWTT wrote:

For my parents it was work. From what my cousins have told me over the years, decades and decades of imperial colonialism caused a huge drain on capital and human resources among other resources. Together with fascist governments, the country was intolerable and had lots of poverty  

 The government now wants Portuguese descendants to return. My 3 children and I can get our Portuguese citizenship easily enough. All I need to do is fill the paperwork and pay about $500. For my children it’s actually free believe it or not! I’m actually considering moving there. 

I think there are similarities between that and the emigration patterns in Ireland-Portugal, to my knowledge, hasn't had a famine, but wasn't it pretty much always a place where life was tough for the many?  

WWWTT

Yes I think so Ken. 

I should also point out that there is other incentives for immigration from other countries as well. Such as tax breaks for small businesses set up by immigrants. 

When I’m there I’ll inquire. I know my cousin Ze would love for my family to move there!

WWWTT

I’m going to continue discussing Euro results in the Portuguese thread.

The epp, s and d, alde and r, ecr, efdd and enf in total have 612 seats out of 751. That’s a huge conservative bloc! The GUE/NGL are reduced to 38 seats. Very disappointed to see this. Portugal elected 4 of those seats. That works out to 19% of voters want a communist rep in Portugal! Europe overal, 5%.

There’s a good chance that Europe is going to get even more pro austerity now. And I can see these conservative corporate servants coming down on Greece Portugal and other socialist regions

WWWTT

lagatta4 wrote:

Portugal remains an interesting country, notably for their drugs policy - no criminalisation of users, even of heroin. Obviously this does NOT meant that they want their people to be junkies! It makes it easier to reach addicts.

Yes to many this approach is very radical. But for many others it’s very normal and makes sense. So nothing unusual sticks out. 

I suspect Portuguese politics are hushed in the west because of policies they have adopted such as the one you have mentioned in regards to recreational use and addiction to drugs. 

WWWTT

Ken Burch wrote:

I saw an amazing clip on YouTube a few years ago-it was during the anti-austerity protests in Portugal.  At one point, there was a parliamentary debate going on on the austerity measures the "Social Democratic" government was imposing.  The galleries were packed with opponents of austerity.  at a certain moment, everyone in the galleries started singing "Grandola, Vila Morena", the Carnation Revolution anthem-which I'm posting a clip of at the end of this passage.   To get the sense of that, you are going to have to picture possibly 2,000 people singing this at the top of their lungs.  There was a parliamentary sign language interpreter in the shot, and as she heard all these people singing this song, she was so moved by the song that she burst into tears and ran off camera, unable to continue translating for the moment.  As a result of the protests, the government was defeated at the next election and the austerity program was stopped.  

Here's the song.  It was the tune played on the radio, in 1974, as a signal for all antifascists to join the Portuguese army-for once, an army which fought for the people, which stood on the correct side of history-in overthrowing the fascist regime which had been in power since 1926.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=118&v=7tIcjwM_XrY'

How magical it would have been to be there on that day in 1974, or on that day a few years ago when for once, the assault on the working and kept-from-working poor was stopped.

Wow you really follow this stuff closely hey! Thanks for posting. 

JKR

WWWTT wrote:

For my parents it was work. From what my cousins have told me over the years, decades and decades of imperial colonialism caused a huge drain on capital and human resources among other resources. Together with fascist governments, the country was intolerable and had lots of poverty  

 The government now wants Portuguese descendants to return. My 3 children and I can get our Portuguese citizenship easily enough. All I need to do is fill the paperwork and pay about $500. For my children it’s actually free believe it or not! I’m actually considering moving there. 

If it wasn’t for language barriers and if I could find suitable employment there, I would gladly move to a social democratic country. If you have all that in Portugal plus family connections, I think Portugal could be marvellous for you!

lagatta4

They certainly seem to have a good quality of life, as on some Greek islands. Since Portugal, unlike Spain, does not face on the Mediterranean, doctors and nutritionists advocating a healthy traditional diet call it the Atlantic Diet, not the Mediterranean diet, but they are very similar. Dark green veg (as in Caldo verde), fish including oily fish (sardines) vegetable proteins (beans) and a moderate amount of wine. Meals shared with family or other near and dear.

Many people from the Azores here. If not, from other poor regions, including in the North, but not the city of Porto. I have friends in Porto, but they are both professors. I very much want to go visit them, but will find some kind of hostel or rental, as I don't want to impose on them. Seems there are some nice places.

I very much support their drugs policy, and it is certainly not because I want people to be heroin addicts. Criminalisation, even of hard drugs, has been a disaster. I've seen that a lot in Italy, where there are also many heroin addicts in so-called "good" middle-class families.

What is most important is how accessible education (including language courses for immigrants) and health care are, not how much "stuff" people can buy. Most of us, even poor or poorish, have too much - it just isn't very nice stuff.

One potential problem is that large cities such as Lisbon or Porto could be subjected to the kind of real-estate speculation that has made housing unaffordable in cities such as Barcelona. People with money in more northerly climes seek places with sunshine and cafés. Portugal does have rainy, windy winters (depending on the region), but it is like that in the Netherlands all the time.