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St. Paul's Cathedral will try for peaceful expulsion of #Occupy protesters

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Boom Boom
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One of the funniest things I've ever seen is a comedy (I forget the name...) where the priest is sprinkling holy water, and one of the recipients is going "It burns! It burns!". Laughing


6079_Smith_W
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Decent article, Unionist, and a surprisingly good turn of events. Interesting that the paper used the word "attack" in the headline to describe the church pointing out the abuses committed by the rich and powerful. 

And it really is the church; that report was endorsed by the Archbishop of Canterbury. I don't suppose we'll see a repeat of 1170, and I am sure part of this is the hierarchy being shamed into action by those clergy who put themselves on the line,  but it would be interesting to know what is going on behind closed doors between him and Cameron.

And on the subject of holy waters...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdSFP9nu1R8 

 

 

 

 

 


Malcolm
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The St. Paul's Institute (which Giles Fraser headed before his resignation as Canon Chancellor) had planned to delay the release of the report for a time in light of the protests.  There was much criticism.

The website Thinking Anglicans has several links to stories on this issue.


Unionist
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Here's a working link to Malcolm's site: Thinking Anglicans.

 


Gaian
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Thanks for the very interesting roundup of comments. From inside that church linkage.. The Economist of Nov. 5 was perhaps as politically revealing as any of those below.Given that London is completely beholden to its finance capital community - almost as big as New York's - it's little wonder the Bishop of London is not in tune with the critics of Mammon. I have not come across any news of American churches calling out for reform on Wall Street. But then, as Miriam Margolyes told a New York audience a couple of years back, in England we treat religion as a personal thing. Here in America, the church seems to have you by the balls. ------- St Paul's Cathedral: Friday roundup Today’s Church Times has extensive coverage, some of which will not be available to non-subscribers until next week. Ed Thornton Dean goes, Chartres steps in, as St Paul’s turns 180 degrees Also Cameron comes out in support of Dr Williams And scroll down that page for Ed Beavan Protesters are tired but sympathetic. Giles Fraser Sitting on a fault-line at St Paul’s Leader St Paul’s: going in the right direction There is also comment elsewhere: Economist Bells and yells Telegraph Martin Beckford, and Victoria WardGiles Fraser: Church risks being ‘spiritual arm of heritage industry’ And Nick Baines has written Playing the game. Posted by Simon Sarmiento on Friday, 4 November 2011 at 9:02am GMT Add a comment | Read comments (9 comments) TrackBack (0) You can make a Permalink to this if you like Categorised as: Church of England

Malcolm
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Thanks for correcting the link, Unionist.  Not sure what I did wrong there.

I'm not aware of any official pronouncement from North American churches, although Holy Trinity Episcopal Church, Wall Street both managed to avoid the shambolic foolishness St. Paul's in London put itself through and has been hosting some dialogues between #Occupy activists and people from the financial industry.

There is some information at Episcopal Cafe - The Lead, though you'll have to scroll down.  There is a fairly high up video of controversial New Hampshire Bishop Gene Robinson.


6079_Smith_W
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@ Malcolm

The United Church has:

http://www.united-church.ca/communications/news/releases/111026

And the Anglican Diocese in Toronto, which holds title to part of the land where Occupy Toronto is taking its stand:

http://www.stjamescathedral.on.ca/

And on another thread I posted the comments by the Anglican Rector on CBC As It HAppens. Although on the face of it he was clear to point out they weren't connected with the movement, he very openly  criticized the economic disparity which is at the root of the protest, and interrupted the grudging lip service  the other itervewees were paying to the right to free speech, He saud clealry that the protesters were there for a serious reason.

 

 

 

 


Malcolm
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The Anglican Bishop of Qu'Appelle visited #OccupyReginaSK.  His communications advisor tagged along and then blogged about it.


Gaian
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Churches tend to invest in "ethical funds" (no booze, tobacco or explosives,etc.), but like their good parishioners who have savings in some fund(s), do not criticize the workings of The Market. Could a "communications advisor" say whether serious reforms of the market have been recommended by any church? Bishop Robinson certainly gets to the heart of recent market failure by fingering the finance capitalists - while defending the market and some very wealthy entrepreneurs who employ large numbers of workers. But is Bishop Robinson "controversial" for his mild chastisement of "the system", is this as far as church analysis goes...given other contradictions such as the necessary limits to the increasing exploitation of an Earth where all its species of life are in growing distress? Given the extent to which evangelicals have clasped the market and its pre-ordained "principles" to their bosom from a "God helps those who help themselves" position, there can't be hope for redemptive reform there. :) This thread is all about concerns from within the Christian faith of Chris Hedges' youth, not the friends of free markets.

Malcolm
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Gene Robinson is controversial for being the first out, partnered, gay bishop in the Anglican Communion.

I'm not aware of any church body advocating the overthrow of capitalism.


Unionist
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Malcolm wrote:

I'm not aware of any church body advocating the overthrow of capitalism.

Me neither, but don't forget the Jewish preacher who actually initiated the overthrow of finance capital:

Quote:
12And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,

 13And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

[emphasis added]


6079_Smith_W
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Malcolm wrote:

I'm not aware of any church body advocating the overthrow of capitalism.

There's a catch there, because for some of those which have the most anti-capitalist philosophy their belief rules out the possibility of engaging that system politically.

That also relates to the separation of church and state, which was spearheaded in many instances by religious people.

But there are religions which are based on common ownership of property - hutterites, amish, and early mormons, to name some.

And there were certainly enough religious people who had no problem calling for the overthrow of an entire economic system in the southern U.S.

There is also the forbidding of interest under Islam, and anti-capitalist philosophy in liberation theology and a religious foundation for the political left in Canada and the U.S. as well.

Of course in many cases it is a movement within a church, not the hierarchy, but that is hardly surprising, nor do I think it makes it insignificant, because contrary to the perception that it is just a giant borg, a community of faith can be a  very diverse group.

And also, if those actions don't happen to be exactly the same as what some people think a struggle against capitalism should entail, I don't  really think that is significant either.

Politics after all, can sometimes be the very definition of splitting hairs.

As can religion, of course.

 

 


Boom Boom
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Latin American Liberation Theology - which I did a paper on in the 1970s - rejects economic and social injustice, and socialism was (or is) the preferred political model.


Gaian
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Yeah, and a few Jesuits left the liberation idea behind in India, where the aboriginal people combine it with Mao's thoughts and are now struggling against the army and police of the jungle areas of the east. We hear bugger all about that conflict today, though. Embarassing to those people whose religion will not let them hurt flies, kill cattle, etc.

6079_Smith_W
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British police foil English Defense League plan to attack London Occupy site:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/nov/11/edl-arrests-london-occupy-armis...


Gaian
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Could someone explain for me, please, the "thinking" behind the EDL's branding the Occupy movement "the enemy" ? The anti-globalization forces are not English enough? St. George must be having a bad time of it up there, these days.

6079_Smith_W
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Gaian wrote:
Could someone explain for me, please, the "thinking" behind the EDL's branding the Occupy movement "the enemy" ? The anti-globalization forces are not English enough? St. George must be having a bad time of it up there, these days.

Well for one thing, the very split which has happened in the Anglican Church because of their presence.

But more broadly, I'd say any movement which struggles for peace, cooperation, and a more open and equitable society is a threat to one which promotes division, hatred, racism and the use of terror. The two groups are at completely opposite ends of the political spectrum.

The EDL may not like what the current government is doing in England, but I would guess many of them support their idea of strong English institutions, including a far more powerful and authoritarian government.

And maybe there's also just a little bit of opportunism in this attempt - get in the limelight while the eyes of the world are on this movement. And in that, they have succeeded.

 


M. Spector
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@ Gaian:

How can you not "get" that the right-wing fringe gets very upset when discontented workers and students start to get uppity?


Gaian
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Seeing the tattoos emblazoned on faces and necks of the fellas being hauled into the wagons, and their almost impenetrable english, I hadn't expected any of them to be in a position to be "uppity"... about anything. I guess I was looking for an explanation of their "tactical" thinking, which generally oozes around racism. "Defence of market institutions," did not ring true, somehow. But in that learned social milieux, who knows? :) Have a coffee, MS.

Gaian
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From George Monbiot's Nov. 7 column, "The Self-Attribution Fallacy" : "Until recently, we were mesmerised by the bosses’ self-attribution. Their acolytes, in academia, the media, think tanks and government, created an extensive infrastructure of junk economics and flattery to justify their seizure of other people’s wealth. So immersed in this nonsense did we become that we seldom challenged its veracity. This is now changing. On Sunday evening I witnessed a remarkable thing: a debate on the steps of St Paul’s Cathedral between Stuart Fraser, chairman of the Corporation of the City of London, another official from the Corporation, the turbulent priest Father William Taylor, John Christensen of the Tax Justice Network and the people of Occupy London(10). It had something of the flavour of the Putney debates of 1647. For the first time in decades – and all credit to the Corporation officials for turning up – financial power was obliged to answer directly to the people. It felt like history being made. The undeserving rich are now in the frame, and the rest of us want our money back. " www.monbiot.com

Northern Shoveler
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Joined: Feb 17 2011

George Monbiot wrote:

The findings of the psychologist Daniel Kahneman, winner of a Nobel economics prize, are devastating to the beliefs that financial high-fliers entertain about themselves(1). He discovered that their apparent success is a cognitive illusion. For example, he studied the results achieved by 25 wealth advisers, across eight years. He found that the consistency of their performance was zero. “The results resembled what you would expect from a dice-rolling contest, not a game of skill.” Those who received the biggest bonuses had simply got lucky.

Such results have been widely replicated. They show that traders and fund managers across Wall Street receive their massive remuneration for doing no better than would a chimpanzee flipping a coin. When Kahneman tried to point this out they blanked him. “The illusion of skill … is deeply ingrained in their culture.”(2)

For years I have been calling the financial sector a glorified casino. Our "business" leaders in the 1% are only in the business of buying and selling pieces of paper. If you are not from Wall street and your bets go bad on the big global roulette table then "your" people have to pay.  Of course the Wall street house never loses because the American taxpayer underwrites its bad debts.

http://www.monbiot.com/2011/11/07/the-self-attribution-fallacy/

 


Northern Shoveler
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George Monbiot wrote:

This is not to suggest that all executives are psychopaths. It is to suggest that the economy has been rewarding the wrong skills. As the bosses have shaken off the trade unions and captured both regulators and tax authorities, the distinction between the productive and rentier upper classes has broken down. CEOs now behave like dukes, extracting from their financial estates sums out of all proportion to the work they do or the value they generate, sums that sometimes exhaust the businesses they parasitise. They are no more deserving of the share of wealth they’ve captured than oil sheikhs.

The rest of us are invited, by governments and by fawning interviews in the press, to subscribe to their myth of election: the belief that they are the chosen ones, possessed of superhuman talents. The very rich are often described as wealth creators. But they have preyed upon the earth’s natural wealth and their workers’ labour and creativity, impoverishing both people and planet. Now they have almost bankrupted us. The wealth creators of neoliberal mythology are some of the most effective wealth destroyers the world has ever seen.

I really like this description of the financial elite.  

 


Gaian
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Joined: Aug 5 2011
Then there's the folks who were taken in...with the help of their fund managers and banks. As Michael Lewis in Boomerang describes the Icelandic situation leading up to the collapse of its three national banks: "You didn't need to be Icelandic to join the cult of the Icelandic banker. German banks put $21 billion into Icelandic banks. The Netherlands gave them $305 million, and Sweden kicked in $400 million. UK investors, lured by the eye-popping 14 per cent annual returns, forked over $30 billion - $28 billion from companies and individuals and the rest from pension funds, hospitals, universities, and other public institutions. Oxford University alone lost $50 million." As Monbiot said of the gathering at St. Paul's: "It felt like history being made. The undeserving rich are now in the frame, and the rest of us want our money back. "

Gaian
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The 1647 debates involving Levellers, mentioned by Monbiot: Clarke: Putney Debates

Northern Shoveler
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Gaian wrote:
The 1647 debates involving Levellers, mentioned by Monbiot: Clarke: Putney Debates

One of my tag lines, when talking about the state's protection of private property in this country, is Winstanley's; "They make the laws to chain us well."  I love this song and do a credible version myself. 

The earth was made a common treasury for everyone to share. 

Quote:

The sin of property
We do disdain
No man has any right to buy and sell
The earth for private gain
By theft and murder
They took the land
Now everywhere the walls
Spring up at their command

They make the laws
To chain us well
The clergy dazzle us with heaven
Or they damn us into hell
We will not worship
The God they serve
The God of greed who feed the rich
While poor folk starve

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=594JpY2ahFg


Malcolm
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Gaian wrote:
The 1647 debates involving Levellers, mentioned by Monbiot: Clarke: Putney Debates

 

Giles Fraser, the Canon Chancellor of St. Paul's who resigned over the intention to evict #OccupyLSX, was previously the priest at St. Mary's, Putney, where the Putney Debates happened.  One of his projects during his time there (2000 - 2009) was to raise the profile o the Putney Debates.


Gaian
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Giles Fraser reminds me of an Anglican priest from my early NDP days...unlikely to make bishop. One hopes he lands on his feet in some quiet parish in the north.

6079_Smith_W
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Gaian wrote:
Giles Fraser reminds me of an Anglican priest from my early NDP days...unlikely to make bishop. One hopes he lands on his feet in some quiet parish in the north.
 

If change is what we want I'd hope for a position of greater prominence. Whether that is in the church or out of it is beside the point.

 


Malcolm
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Giles is something f a media darling, with periodic columns in The Guardian, frequent appearances on the Beeb and a regular gig with the (unofficial and slightly high church) Church Times.  Politically he describes himself as a former socialist, FWIW.  Given the convoluted way the Church of England chooses bishops, I wouldn't be surprised if he got a purple shirt and a stupid hat at some point after Labour is returned to power.


epaulo13
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#Bankofideas Occupy London ‘repossesses’ multi-million pound bank offices

Occupy London has taken over a huge abandoned office block in the borough of Hackney belonging to the investment bank UBS in a move it describes as a ‘public repossession.’ [1]

Overnight on Thursday, a dozen activists from Occupy London, campaigning for social and economic justice as part of the global fight for real democracy, gained access to the building and secured it, giving them a legal claim on the space....

http://takethesquare.net/2011/11/18/bankofideas-occupy-london-%e2%80%98r...


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