Taiwan should ally with Japan The Philippines Thailand etc

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NorthReport
Taiwan should ally with Japan The Philippines Thailand etc

There is only one thing a bully understands 

To offset Xi’s Chinese Dictatorship Taiwan needs to start making alliances with other nations such as the Philippines and eventually Thailand. And the sooner the better 

 

https://www.google.ca/amp/s/amp.scmp.com/news/china/military/article/2180653/beijing-will-keep-military-pressure-taiwan-after-xi-jinpings

WWWTT

Hi North Report 

Glad to see you’re starting to take an interest in China Asia! Hoping that the Philippine and Thai government will side with a small Chinese province that will probably reunify with the mainland in 50 years I think is way out there. But here’s a link about another country that used to be part of China and gained full independence (sort of) that you may like?

https://thediplomat.com/tag/china-mongolia-relations/

Sean in Ottawa

WWWTT wrote:

Hi North Report 

Glad to see you’re starting to take an interest in China Asia! Hoping that the Philippine and Thai government will side with a small Chinese province that will probably reunify with the mainland in 50 years I think is way out there. But here’s a link about another country that used to be part of China and gained full independence (sort of) that you may like?

https://thediplomat.com/tag/china-mongolia-relations/

"used to be part of" -- well the sort of should be on this part. Mongolia was independent until the end of the 17th century and submitted to Qing rule (you know who the Qing were and where they were from right?). At the fall of the Qing in 1911 they became independent again.

Really not a part of China in any real sense of the word.

Also the China of the Qing was not as centrally governed in these parts - more a vassel state part of the empire rather than a part of the country.

Moving on to Taiwan. Province of China. Perhaps your sort of can be here as well. Of course you know and are quite selective about this since Taiwan has rarely been part of the Chinese state. It is that place where old regimes go and persist when they lose power centrally -- well twice actually. The connection between Taiwan and the mainland historically is one that has long been exaggerated by the Chinese communist government.

So at one time this island was colonized by the Spanish briefly and then Dutch. Oh yes those nasty Europeans. But the story is not simple and does not end there. There were Taiwanese indigenous people there. They were swamped first by the Dutch and then second by the Han Chinese in the 17th century. Then the Han Chinese colonized the island (the Han sailor Chen Di called the people there "Eastern Savages").

A former Ming loyalist then went to the island and defeated the Dutch in the mid 1600s. (A retreat of the previous dynasty such as what is there now.) The Qing followed in 1683. This was the start of Taiwan being part of China. It did not last long. 200 years later the island was ceded to Japan. At the end of the second world war the Japanese left and the island went to the Nationalist Chinese who have controlled it ever since but of course it was united with the mainland for whatever part of the 4 years after the war that you consider the Kuomintang controlled China.

To put this in ocntext the Chinese hostory of Taiwan being part of the Chinese mainland state was only four times the recent occupation by the Japanese.

So you have a big long history of Taiwan as a part of China that is barely over 200 years as a result of Chinese imperialism there which supplanted European imperialism.

Oh but we are not supposed to acnowledge Chinese imperialism here right? We are just supposed to suppress and forget about the indigenous people of the island in order to fit with the Chinese narrative. We are also supposed to forget the will of not only the indigenous people there but the Han Chinese who left China to get away from the communists becuase they too have no right to self determination right?

You see it goes like this: all peoples once colonized by Europeans have the right to self determination of course (and I agree but people here want to pretend that any discussion of China negates this) but those colonized by the Chinese do not becuase we need to refuse to admit that the Chinese had an empire and did colonizing of its own. We are to forget the fact (inconvenient as it is) that there are indigenous people living on Taiwan that some might want to think might have a little bit of a right themselves in this age of decolonialization. Because here we are supposed to support the Chinese Communist Party. We are supposed to pretend as, according to the Chinese Communist party, that it is wholly innocent of any human rights abuses and any accusations of expansion. Of course China would like to declare arctic waters Canada considers its own international - this might become a little inconvenient but we can ignore it until all sea ice is gone. Oh and while we fight pipelines here we are supposed to see China's benevolence and not recognize that it seeks a large number of pipelines as well.

https://www.cgai.ca/a_global_arctic_chinese_aspirations_in_the_north

Yes, I am truly sick and tired of ALL propaganda including the European and North American versions but not exclusively. The hypocrissy marches on accusing me of supporting imperialism by not promoting some selective versions. It is a little like denying all murder becuase nothing else reaches the scale of the holocaust and calling anyone who points out a murder to be anti-semitic. True European colonization is the worst dynamic the world has seen. But the dynamic of colonialism is a problem that must be opposed as a dynamic not based only on who did it.

You know whywe don't recognize Chinese colonialism as a thing in Taiwan? Well that's easy -- it is European and North American greed for money and connection with China. The denial of the indigenous people in Taiwan is about the greed of the "West" becoming aligned with the interest of China.

Lots of inconvenient truths here.

Sean in Ottawa

On the thread topic: Taiwan attempts to ally itself with any country it can. Most will not give it the time of day for fear of angering China. In that sense it does not make sense giving it advice to ally itself with any particular country.

However, many people do not know that the people of Philippines ancestrally come from Taiwan. They also may not know that the Ming Chinese planned to invade the Philippines and was only prevented by their defeat by the Qing. So there is a logical connection here. However, the Philippines largely ditched Taiwan relations as a condition of establishing relations with China in 1975. Thailand made a similar move although there is a Taipei economic and cultural office there.

These two countries understand that they have to deal with China. Neither is strong enough to oppose it and neither is comfortable with US imperialism in Asia as their security blanket (suffocating). As such, Taiwan relations will not get a priority over their domestic security requirement for peace with China and the economic benefits they can get from that.

Taiwan has considered the threat of invasion by China as to be so acute that it is not in the same position as these two countries.

Considering that Philippines has been part of the US empire directly, you cannot fault them for not wanting to engage too much in a relationship that requires subservience to the US. Walking a fine line...

The mistake here is in looking for innocent parties -- usually in the world you will not have many so taking sides is a delicate thing for smaller countries to do.

NorthReport

Thanks for your helpful perspective Sean

You have to start somewhere and it seems to me that it might well be in Japan Taiwan the Philippines Indonesia Malaysia Viet Nam and a few other countries interest to consider some kind of alliance to help offset the big bullies like China USA and Russia.  Something similiar to what Canada should have done many moons ago to offset the unequal relationship we have with the giant to the South of us. 

Just sayin'

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

So Sean is Hawaii part of the US? What about Alaska?  I think that an analogy for Taiwan is Newfoundland.  Prior to 1949 they were a semi-independent state ruled by the same imperial power similar to the rest of Canada prior to 1931. In fact if I am not mistaken if it had been allowed on the ballot many historians claim that the people of the Island would have preferred to be annexed by the US but Britain would have none of that even.

I just had a passing thought and am now wondering whether the indigenous peoples of Labrador actually got to vote in the '49 referendum.   Given that the Islanders genetically cleansed the first peoples from Newfoundland itself we know they didn't get a vote.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

North Report the people on Taiwan are primarily ethnic Chinese. Your idea of them being bosom buddies with the imperial power that perpetrated the Rape of Nanjing is unbelievably uninformed and ridiculous. Nanjing by the way was the capital of the Kuomintang government, you know the founders of modern day Taiwan.

People in the West may not remember that historically Japan was an imperial power that brutalized China, Korea Taiwan and the Philippines but the invasions and destruction from the 1930's and '40's have not been forgotten by the descendants of the raped and murdered.

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

So Sean is Hawaii part of the US? What about Alaska?  I think that an analogy for Taiwan is Newfoundland.  Prior to 1949 they were a semi-independent state ruled by the same imperial power similar to the rest of Canada prior to 1931. In fact if I am not mistaken if it had been allowed on the ballot many historians claim that the people of the Island would have preferred to be annexed by the US but Britain would have none of that even.

I just had a passing thought and am now wondering whether the indigenous peoples of Labrador actually got to vote in the '49 referendum.   Given that the Islanders genetically cleansed the first peoples from Newfoundland itself we know they didn't get a vote.

Ridiculous analogy.

Taiwan people in the majority do not want to join China now. They are independent now. They have been separate from China for almost all of their history -- and the majority still want to be.

Neither Newfoundland and Hawaii are independent. Neither have a majority desire to be independent.

Newfoundland voted to join Canada -- even though this was a decision made in terrible circumstances, it was a decision made by the people.

Hawaii is an example of historic imperialism. I think you are a hypocrite to point to it as a reason to counter the issue of Taiwan where you have an independent state that wishes to remain for the present independent and regularly holds election now where relations with China are openly debated.

You are a hypocrite to suggest that the dead indigenous people of Newfoundland can be used as an argument to dismiss the interests of indigenous people in Taiwan who while they represent a small part of the population still exist. With respect to joining China they are not alone. While they represent only 2% or so of the population, they are actually aligned with the majority of the population. Taiwan has been polled consistently on this question -- for many years about a third were interested in unification, another third would consider it in the future but not with the present Chinese government and a third wanted to explore independence. This is despite clear intimidation from China. In recent years the pro unification support has softened rather than the pro independence support.

The fact that you oppose self determination except where convenient clearly indicates where your politics really is.

If Hawaii or Nefoundland wished to be independent I would support them on that. You suggest that they should be independent even though their people express no such desire and Taiwan's desire should be ignored.

You are a troll. This is not an insult. This is a fact. The kinds of examples you pick are not designed to be part of a serious discussion but simply to aggrivate. They are so patently stupid half the time that there is not even a pretense in them having any useful logic. This is trolling behaviour.

 

voice of the damned

Kropotkin wrote:

In fact if I am not mistaken if it had been allowed on the ballot many historians claim that the people of the Island would have preferred to be annexed by the US but Britain would have none of that even.

I believe the idea was more "economic union with the United States" and in fact, that was the exact name of the political party advocating said position. Headed by John Crosbie's dad, I think. The idea was for some sort of trade agreement with the US centred on fishing. Not sure what the US thought of that at the time, or how they would regard a state of Newfoundland after the fisheries ran out.

As for today, if Newfoundlanders elected a party advocating union with the US, or a return to British rule, or some other arrangement that involved leaving Canada, and a subsequent referendum went the same way, I don't think there's anything Canada could or should do about that, even if the divorce would lead to a serious weakening of Canada's geopolitical position in the world.

But I think it's pretty unlikely for the foreseeable that Newfoundland would want anything like that.

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

North Report the people on Taiwan are primarily ethnic Chinese. Your idea of them being bosom buddies with the imperial power that perpetrated the Rape of Nanjing is unbelievably uninformed and ridiculous. Nanjing by the way was the capital of the Kuomintang government, you know the founders of modern day Taiwan.

People in the West may not remember that historically Japan was an imperial power that brutalized China, Korea Taiwan and the Philippines but the invasions and destruction from the 1930's and '40's have not been forgotten by the descendants of the raped and murdered.

Your desire to lecture people on history that probably everyone in this thread is aware of is obvious. That said the people who live there take priority over your sanctimony. Relations between Taiwan and Japan are not particularly difficult and the hostility that exists between Japan and China and Korea is nowhere near the same level with Taiwan, although there are competing interests. Japan has for some time like most other countries taken the position of not supporting Taiwan as a means to avoid difficulty with China. Otherwise their relations are generally good.

The reason Taiwan cannot contemplate allliances with these countries is not due to some historic anger as you suggest but due to the fact that these countries are too concerned about not aggrivated China which has shown willingness to bully any nation that suggests they might accept Taiwan's self determination.

Historic discomfort exists between many countries where it does not interfere in current political relations and alliances. Tension remains high with respect to Korea and Japan and China and Japan  but much less so with respect to Taiwan. This is likely becuase Taiwan is more concerned about the potential for future aggression from the mainland than past aggression from Japan. Taiwan also had been ceded to Japan 42 years before the attacks on Shanghai and Nanjing.

 

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

So Sean is Hawaii part of the US? What about Alaska?  I think that an analogy for Taiwan is Newfoundland.  Prior to 1949 they were a semi-independent state ruled by the same imperial power similar to the rest of Canada prior to 1931. In fact if I am not mistaken if it had been allowed on the ballot many historians claim that the people of the Island would have preferred to be annexed by the US but Britain would have none of that even.

I just had a passing thought and am now wondering whether the indigenous peoples of Labrador actually got to vote in the '49 referendum.   Given that the Islanders genetically cleansed the first peoples from Newfoundland itself we know they didn't get a vote.

And by the way the Economic Union Party which advoctated closer ties with the US did not garner more support than those who wanted union with Canada and it certainly could have pushed this option if it had support.

Most consider that Newfoundland would have prefered responsible government but recognized that the economic position was too dire. Many historians point to the devastating loss of the youth of Newfoundland in the first world war as having been the breaking point in Newfoundland having the means to be independent.

NorthReport

Krop

The Japanese invaded the Philippines during the 2nd WW but my hunch is today Japan is more popular in the Philippines than China is. 

Similiarily Canada was at war with Germany during WW 2 but it seems now we have quite an amicable relationship with Germany

Time often can change one’s perspective

voice of the damned

Sean wrote:

This is likely becuase Taiwan is more concerned about the potential for future aggression from the mainland than past aggression from Japan. Taiwan also had been ceded to Japan 42 years before the attacks on Shanghai and Nanjing.

I've never been to Taiwan, but a friend of mine who lived there for years told me that anti-Japanese sentiment is far less prevalent there than it is in Korea(which was formally annexed 15 years after Taiwan). Granted, he had never lived in Korea, and was going by second-hand reports, though as one of those reporters, I'd say it's hard to overstate the degree of anti-Japanese opinion here. It definitely outweighs anti-Chinese or anti-American sentiment, at least in the ROK.

Japan continues to make territorial claims against Korea, so that might play a role, though issues like the comfort-woman and slave-labourers continue to be on the front-burner as well. Not sure if any of that is a factor in Taiwan.

Sean in Ottawa

voice of the damned wrote:

Sean wrote:

This is likely becuase Taiwan is more concerned about the potential for future aggression from the mainland than past aggression from Japan. Taiwan also had been ceded to Japan 42 years before the attacks on Shanghai and Nanjing.

I've never been to Taiwan, but a friend of mine who lived there for years told me that anti-Japanese sentiment is far less prevalent there than it is in Korea(which was formally annexed 15 years after Taiwan). Granted, he had never lived in Korea, and was going by second-hand reports, though as one of those reporters, I'd say it's hard to overstate the degree of anti-Japanese opinion here. It definitely outweighs anti-Chinese or anti-American sentiment, at least in the ROK.

Japan continues to make territorial claims against Korea, so that might play a role, though issues like the comfort-woman and slave-labourers continue to be on the front-burner as well. Not sure if any of that is a factor in Taiwan.

Having known a few Taiwanese, I would say that it seems like this is not significant in the government. However, there is a little lingering in older generation. So like when I was a kid in the 1970s I knew many Jewish people who would never by a VW and it was a scandal for them to own one but by the 1990s this was no longer a thing.

If you ask and remind Chinese from Taiwan they may raise it, if you ask if Japan should have an offensive force they may raise it but don't think about it.

That said there are issues of maratime ownership where all these countries including China, Vietnam, Philippines, Taiwan claim ownership. There are also high stakes issues where Mainland China's claim is founded on previous Taiwan rights. This is awkward as Taiwan generally does not want to oppose the claim but is not happy about their historical maratime rights being pursued by China. So complications all round and disputes occur and people do nto forget quickly the Japanese aggression in the Pacific - however, this is not a defining issue in terms of making Taiwan closer to Mainland China than Japan when it comes to alliances. It simply is not true. Taiwan has often had high level defence discussions including Japan and the US over concerns about mainland China. It is a fantasy to suggest Taiwan feels safer with Mainland China than Japan.

It is also true that it is false to emphasize chinese nationalists as founders of moder Taiwan. The Taiwanese do not consider modern Taiwan as going back to 1949. It was not a democracy until at least the 1970s. People in North America often forget that the 1940s to 1980s period what are now democracies were just dictatorships backed by the US and not more free than communist countries. During this period these countries did not make more progress socially than China which actually made a lot of progress despite some backsliding at times. The modern Taiwan is actually a fairly recent thing as is modern South Korea. People seeing through cold war lenses often miss this fact.

It is true that parties from the time before the modern period remained active but they evolved in a way that they did in Eastern Europe. You cannot claim that the system in modern Eastern Europe is founded by the communists even where that party remained or altered its name to continue to compete in the new system. It is still a new system. Seen from Canada or from Mainland China there is a very simplistic view of these new democracies.

It is also true that these new democracies continue to have issues. A look at labour history in Korea is quite eye-opening when you consider them to be democratic. While things have improved the way they had to go was very long -- not very long ago. Socially the political culture still reflects a great deal of change. All these countries have had experiences of dictatorships backed by the North American and European powers and then political cultures that are foreign thrust on them. They are still making their way to create Asian solutions based on Asian values rather than the ones thrust on them from outside. There is no expectation that this is a quick process.

It is also true that while China has serious problems in terms of the treatment of people, they are also trying to produce a path that is different based on a different culture and value systems with different solutions that the West. The problem remains that they cannot be judged based on a European/North American set of principles and values but they can still be considered in a universal set. Telling the differenc ebetween universal human rights and biased North American and European ones remains a challenge with loads to criticize at both extremes (either seeking to apply no consideration to human rights at all or seeing them through a racist European lens. Both extremes exist). Simplistic discussions about China from both points of view are common here and so is the accusation that there is no right to discuss any issue due to history of imperialism. Many people consider there is a middle approach.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

You Sean you made some great points to bad that you had to call me a hypocrite for stating an opinion that you disagree with. Your passive aggressive posts is why I often can not restrain myself from addressing the aggressive side rather than the passive side that I often agree with.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

With respect to joining China they are not alone. While they represent only 2% or so of the population, they are actually aligned with the majority of the population. Taiwan has been polled consistently on this question -- for many years about a third were interested in unification, another third would consider it in the future but not with the present Chinese government and a third wanted to explore independence. This is despite clear intimidation from China. In recent years the pro unification support has softened rather than the pro independence support.

I am a troll because I think that Taiwanese people who vote for the Kuomintang party which supports independence might still remember the Japanese empire in less than a favorable light. I guess you have access to up to date reliable polling about the Taiwanese electorate given your self assurance. Me I think the country is nearly divided and this thread is premised on the basis that one side of that debate should prevail. I thought that was totally hypocritical given the fact that I believe in the principle of self determination.

Wu Nai-te, a researcher of the social science institute of the Academia Sinica, noted that the 67 per cent was part of a gradual decrease from 75.9 per cent in 2016 and 69.1 per cent in 2017. The same foundation found in June that 49 per cent of Taiwanese adults had an overall good impression of the mainland, against 44 per cent who said they had a negative view, marking the first time the survey recorded a greater percentage of people who said they liked the mainland versus those who said they disliked it.

https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics/article/2156238/taiwan-warming-m...

Given your comments above I gather you will likely dismiss this as a result of Chinese coercion thus denying the agency of the people in Taiwan who hold those views.

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

With respect to joining China they are not alone. While they represent only 2% or so of the population, they are actually aligned with the majority of the population. Taiwan has been polled consistently on this question -- for many years about a third were interested in unification, another third would consider it in the future but not with the present Chinese government and a third wanted to explore independence. This is despite clear intimidation from China. In recent years the pro unification support has softened rather than the pro independence support.

I am a troll because I think that Taiwanese people who vote for the Kuomintang party which supports independence might still remember the Japanese empire in less than a favorable light. I guess you have access to up to date reliable polling about the Taiwanese electorate given your self assurance. Me I think the country is nearly divided and this thread is premised on the basis that one side of that debate should prevail. I thought that was totally hypocritical given the fact that I believe in the principle of self determination.

Wu Nai-te, a researcher of the social science institute of the Academia Sinica, noted that the 67 per cent was part of a gradual decrease from 75.9 per cent in 2016 and 69.1 per cent in 2017. The same foundation found in June that 49 per cent of Taiwanese adults had an overall good impression of the mainland, against 44 per cent who said they had a negative view, marking the first time the survey recorded a greater percentage of people who said they liked the mainland versus those who said they disliked it.

https://www.scmp.com/week-asia/politics/article/2156238/taiwan-warming-m...

Given your comments above I gather you will likely dismiss this as a result of Chinese coercion thus denying the agency of the people in Taiwan who hold those views.

No you are a troll becuase you purposefully misrepresent the debate consistently as you have here and becuase you make the most ridiculous nonsensical straw man connections like comparing Taiwan to Newfoundland.

You are a troll becuase you debate without honesty. Like here pretedning that I called you a troll becuase of the present position of Taiwan with respect to independence which is a lie. Then you say others here think one side or another of the debate should prevail is a lie. That you pretend there are just two sides in this pro unification and against is also false.

The reality in Taiwan is that there are pro independence, pro reunification people and those who do not want to address the conversation now becuase independence declaration would enrage mainland China but they do not want reunification now. There remain numbers of people who would like to consider a future reunification if China adopted a different system of government and was not a threat to the freedoms they believe they have. None of the three of the major groups: independence now, unification now and let's not rock the boat in any direction have ever had a majority in any polling I have seen over many years.

Your style of argument with the example that you pretend that ANYONE here is saying something different is the reason why I have 0 respect for you and do not feel any need to be polite and pander to your trolling-by-misrepresentation style.

Your exaggerations are trolling -- Nobody ever said that the people of Taiwa.n forgot Japanese aggression -- in fact I said the opposite - you lying jerk.

Don't bother "gathering" anything about what I am saying. You use this expression in order to lie and pretend I am saying the opposite of what I ahve actually said. This is what defines you as a troll. You do not participate in an exchange of ideas honestly: you fight by lying about the other's position without any effort to make it a conversation or willingness to hear what the other person is actually saying other than how you can twist it to your agenda -- which seems mostly to be to pick and win fights without actually having a position that remains consistent from one post to another.

 

WWWTT

kropotkin1951 wrote:

So Sean is Hawaii part of the US? What about Alaska?  I think that an analogy for Taiwan is Newfoundland.  Prior to 1949 they were a semi-independent state ruled by the same imperial power similar to the rest of Canada prior to 1931. In fact if I am not mistaken if it had been allowed on the ballot many historians claim that the people of the Island would have preferred to be annexed by the US but Britain would have none of that even.

I just had a passing thought and am now wondering whether the indigenous peoples of Labrador actually got to vote in the '49 referendum.   Given that the Islanders genetically cleansed the first peoples from Newfoundland itself we know they didn't get a vote.

Thanks for pointing out the Nefoundland and Labradour example!

In the construction industry, I have worked with many people from the Rock. I distinctly remember 3-4 older guys sharing their experience they had from 1950 vote to join confederacy. Now none of them were old enough at the time to vote, but they all said that the vote was fixed! And from what I remember, they believed that the majority of Newfoundlanders wanted to remain part of the UK imperialist empire (I added the imperialist empire part)

As far as the Indiginous people's of Newfoundland and Labradour voting in any elections at the time, here's your answer in a link about the Beothuk's people

https://www.heritage.nf.ca/articles/aboriginal/beothuk-disappearance.php

WWWTT
Sean in Ottawa

WWWTT wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

So Sean is Hawaii part of the US? What about Alaska?  I think that an analogy for Taiwan is Newfoundland.  Prior to 1949 they were a semi-independent state ruled by the same imperial power similar to the rest of Canada prior to 1931. In fact if I am not mistaken if it had been allowed on the ballot many historians claim that the people of the Island would have preferred to be annexed by the US but Britain would have none of that even.

I just had a passing thought and am now wondering whether the indigenous peoples of Labrador actually got to vote in the '49 referendum.   Given that the Islanders genetically cleansed the first peoples from Newfoundland itself we know they didn't get a vote.

Thanks for pointing out the Nefoundland and Labradour example!

In the construction industry, I have worked with many people from the Rock. I distinctly remember 3-4 older guys sharing their experience they had from 1950 vote to join confederacy. Now none of them were old enough at the time to vote, but they all said that the vote was fixed! And from what I remember, they believed that the majority of Newfoundlanders wanted to remain part of the UK imperialist empire (I added the imperialist empire part)

As far as the Indiginous people's of Newfoundland and Labradour voting in any elections at the time, here's your answer in a link about the Beothuk's people

https://www.heritage.nf.ca/articles/aboriginal/beothuk-disappearance.php

Of course you like it -- it is a ridiculous example -- but it plays to your extremely brazen propaganda efforts.

Of course in your false bullshit concern for the Indiginous people, you use them to dismiss the  valid concerns of the people of Taiwan today which includes nearly half a million Indiginous people. You are a hypocrite as well -- so you like that stupid example.

There is no significant population in Newfoundland looking to be outside Canada today. Their governments are between competative options with considerable political freedoms and freedom of expression.

Taiwan does not feel that way about the PRC.

So answer this straight out -- do you agree that the 23 million people who live on the island of Taiwan have the right to self determination? There is overwhelming consensus there that they value this right. China has stated frequently that they do not have this right.

Let's see just how progressive you really are. Answer the question.

Let me say very clearly that I believe all provinces of Canada have the right to self determination and would support Newfoundland independence if they voted for it today. How about you?

You say this is such a grand example well let's use it that way then shall we?

Are you only concerned about the dead from previous imperialism or does your fake concern extend to people living today?

Sean in Ottawa

WWWTT wrote:

Here's something from Taiwan 台湾

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2018/09/19/2003700716

Sure shall we look at this then?

"The results showed that 36.2 percent of respondents supported an independent Taiwan, while 26.1 percent favored unifying with China and 23.2 percent supported maintaining the “status quo” in cross-strait relations."

hmmm

"People are frustrated with Tsai’s cross-strait policy, because it does not provide them with the vision of an independent Taiwan, nor does it provide a road map showing how the nation is going to achieve independence, former Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) legislator Chien Hsi-chieh (簡錫堦) said."

"Although the number of those who support Taiwanese independence could be expected to increase in the long run, sentiment could rise and fall under various presidents, former DPP legislator Lin Cho-shui (林濁水) said."

 

"“Pro-independence momentum gained strength during the administration of former president Ma Ying-jeou (馬英九) due to the sense of urgency that they felt as the administration pursued closer relations with China,” Lin said. “The momentum weakened during the administration of former president Chen Shui-bian (陳水扁), as well as under Tsai, because of dissatisfaction with their performance.”"

Maybe want want to read the articles fully before posting them as propaganda?

This is pretty much what I have been saying here.

Also note that this latest poll has 24% who did not answer and only about a quarter in favour of unification with a much higher number in favour of independence -- this when the government is unpopular.

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I support the Taiwanese right to self determination just as I support the right of Canadian provinces or US states to secede.

This thread though is an invitation to discuss Taiwanese politics in relation to China.This thread is premised on the people of Taiwan setting themselves up to confront the Chinese government because its a bully.  I think that is a path not to freedom but to chaos and potentially war so I do not support the premise of this thread. The numbers that Sean keeps repeating (although no one disagrees with them) tell me I can be assured a significant plurality of Taiwanese voters and most likely a majority would also disagree with it. 

The related idea that Taiwan should be a Chinese province is an acceptable idea for Taiwanese people to hold but apparently it is considered by some an unacceptable idea for Canadians to even broach. So it seems what is so reprehensible is not agreeing with the side that supports the West's view of the world. Personally I feel no shame in coming to the same conclusions as many Taiwanese no matter what our imperial cheerleaders say.

I am not Taiwanese but I would wish for them what I wish for myself and that would be a government not controlled by any imperial power and committed to sustainable living with policies designed to enhance society's ability to engage in mutual aid. I do not expect I will get my wish for myself or for them.

WWWTT

No actually the link I provided showed that the unification crowd in Taiwan is surging again. Less than 2 months ago there were elections in Taiwan where a shift took place at the local level. Here’s some opinion on it

https://m.journal-neo.org/2018/12/11/results-of-local-elections-in-taiwan/

WWWTT

And here’s another link that’s important if you want to get a better view of what’s happening in Taiwan!

https://m.dw.com/en/taiwanese-ruling-party-suffers-local-election-defeats/a-46434747

WWWTT

Here’s another twist I’m going to throw into here. I got this from some reading. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recognition_of_same-sex_unions_in_China

It appears that with same sex marriage, Taiwan is actually influencing the mainland! This leads me to speculate that unification may actually gain momentum in Taiwan if continentals are perceived as being welcoming of Taiwan. 

NorthReport

Why doesn’t Canada reach out to Taiwan and perhaps merge with them?

The quicker we disconnect from our racist Southern neighbours with their border wall BS the better

Hey Donald,  Canada wants a wall and we will pay for it.

And for you snow birds who venture South during the Winter don’t worry because with our useless Federal Liberal  government, Global Warming is alive and well and is coming on like gangbusters, and Canada will soon become the go-to tourist Mecca 

NDPP
Noops

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Lots of inconvenient truths here.

Sean I know you are in Ottawa. You wouldn't perhaps be a journalist there would you?
I sure hope not.

Because when you get going, you have one of the most convoluted writing styles I have ever read.
It's sheer torture to try to follow!  :)

Sean in Ottawa

WWWTT wrote:

No actually the link I provided showed that the unification crowd in Taiwan is surging again. Less than 2 months ago there were elections in Taiwan where a shift took place at the local level. Here’s some opinion on it

https://m.journal-neo.org/2018/12/11/results-of-local-elections-in-taiwan/

You really do hope that people take your interpretation and do not read the links you post right?

Clearly you must, since they rarely say anything near what you are saying.

No there is no surge in desire for unification. This has moved up and down gradually often related to the relative popularity of the parties that lean one way or another and usually for local rather than other reasons. There is still not a majority in any direction and neither side is near its peak.

What you are saying is a propaganda lie.

How do you expect to be treated as anything other than a CCP representative on this board with posts like this?

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I support the Taiwanese right to self determination just as I support the right of Canadian provinces or US states to secede.

This thread though is an invitation to discuss Taiwanese politics in relation to China.This thread is premised on the people of Taiwan setting themselves up to confront the Chinese government because its a bully.  I think that is a path not to freedom but to chaos and potentially war so I do not support the premise of this thread. The numbers that Sean keeps repeating (although no one disagrees with them) tell me I can be assured a significant plurality of Taiwanese voters and most likely a majority would also disagree with it. 

The related idea that Taiwan should be a Chinese province is an acceptable idea for Taiwanese people to hold but apparently it is considered by some an unacceptable idea for Canadians to even broach. So it seems what is so reprehensible is not agreeing with the side that supports the West's view of the world. Personally I feel no shame in coming to the same conclusions as many Taiwanese no matter what our imperial cheerleaders say.

I am not Taiwanese but I would wish for them what I wish for myself and that would be a government not controlled by any imperial power and committed to sustainable living with policies designed to enhance society's ability to engage in mutual aid. I do not expect I will get my wish for myself or for them.

Good to clarify that you attacked me to very angrily to assert basically the same position I keep advancing with all the false indignation that comes from trying to warp a position that is essentially the same into something that you can create a storm of objection to.

I have never said it is unacceptable for anyone to broach an opinion on this -- mistating the facts into posts of essentially propaganda that denies the truly complicated position there is another matter.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

 mistating the facts into posts of essentially propaganda that denies the truly complicated position there is another matter.

I must have missed it. When did someone post a CBC article? I find that you spout propaganda all the time but you think it is independent thought. I think the CBC is propaganda and don't get me started on the New York Times or the Washington Post. Your view of the world is not the only possible or correct view of the world no matter how many times you attack posters like WWWT.

Your problem Sean is you think you are some type of mind/keyboard reader who can determine peoples intent and then instead of arguing about the opinion offered you judge that the poster is insincere in their opinion and you then respond to that instead. Because of this  you regularly call me a liar and other people foreign operatives. I find it rather off putting but that is your style. Me I am more direct and I will just tell you that I think your opinions are wrong not that you are lying for some convoluted reason to score babble points to be redeemed for a Where is Fidel? T-Shirt

Sean in Ottawa

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

 mistating the facts into posts of essentially propaganda that denies the truly complicated position there is another matter.

I must have missed it. When did someone post a CBC article? I find that you spout propaganda all the time but you think it is independent thought. I think the CBC is propaganda and don't get me started on the New York Times or the Washington Post. Your view of the world is not the only possible or correct view of the world no matter how many times you attack posters like WWWT.

Your problem Sean is you think you are some type of mind/keyboard reader who can determine peoples intent and then instead of arguing about the opinion offered you judge that the poster is insincere in their opinion and you then respond to that instead. Because of this  you regularly call me a liar and other people foreign operatives. I find it rather off putting but that is your style. Me I am more direct and I will just tell you that I think your opinions are wrong not that you are lying for some convoluted reason to score babble points to be redeemed for a Where is Fidel? T-Shirt

Piss off. I will let you know for sure when I think you need to instruct me on what some asshole thinks is my problem.

Sean in Ottawa

Taiwan’s indigenous people remind Xi Jinping that it has “never belonged to China”

https://qz.com/1518787/taiwans-indigenous-people-remind-xi-jinping-it-ha...

NorthReport

Xi Jinping’s bold statements often backfire

http://www.atimes.com/xi-jinpings-bold-statements-often-backfire/

NorthReport
WWWTT

NorthReport wrote:

Xi Jinping’s bold statements often backfire

http://www.atimes.com/xi-jinpings-bold-statements-often-backfire/

Hi North Report!

I actually started a thread about Jin Ping. This link would be more appropriate there in my opinion.

WWWTT

Pulled out of the link

“I have recently heard a word repeatedly pronounced by some Canadians: bullying. They said that by arresting two Canadian citizens as retaliation for Canada’s detention of Meng, China was bullying Canada. To those people, China’s self-defence is an offence to Canada,” Lu wrote.

China's self defence is an offence to Canada. That sais it right there!

Edited to add:

What thread am I in again????

Sean in Ottawa

WWWTT wrote:

Pulled out of the link

“I have recently heard a word repeatedly pronounced by some Canadians: bullying. They said that by arresting two Canadian citizens as retaliation for Canada’s detention of Meng, China was bullying Canada. To those people, China’s self-defence is an offence to Canada,” Lu wrote.

China's self defence is an offence to Canada. That sais it right there!

Edited to add:

What thread am I in again????

Not the thread where you last tried to have this one both ways:

"Here’s more speculation. China will retaliate. Now how they do, no one can say for sure? But the Chinese have many ways and opportunity to do so."

Then you said:

"I believe it may be remotely possible that China is only putting on a show when they protest her arrest in Canada."

Then you said this when you did not like someone for pointing to what you said previously:

"You have the link where China claimed these arrests where in retaliation? As far as what I speculated that you chose to refer to above (and at the same time ignore most of what I speculated), ya sure, so what? That's why we're here on babble in the first place."

Then you said this:

"quote NR-The detentions are in apparent retaliation for Canada's arrest of high-tech executive Meng Wanzhou at the request of the United States.unquote China never said these two were detained as retaliation. Canadian corporate media is attempting to belittle the Chinese state in an awkward attempt to protect Canadian liberals acting as the US imperialist proxy. "

Now you are okay with terming the Chinese arrests of Canadians as retaliation here.

You say whichever version -- retaliation or not you feel like in the moment and attack people are not up-to-date with the latest version you are selling.

WWWTT

I’ve also speculated here on babble that possibly Ms Meng may have been under investigation from Beijing for corruption. That this whole thing could have all been set up and it’s all show. 

Now this is a little more out there and I have no link for backup. Take it as it is.

If you want to get all worked up over something as trivial as my speculation that you read, your welcome!

WWWTT

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Taiwan’s indigenous people remind Xi Jinping that it has “never belonged to China”

https://qz.com/1518787/taiwans-indigenous-people-remind-xi-jinping-it-ha...

Odd? I never heard anything like this from the many ethnic groups in Guangxi. I’m sure the nationalists in Taiwan for decades never helped. 

Sean in Ottawa

WWWTT wrote:

I’ve also speculated here on babble that possibly Ms Meng may have been under investigation from Beijing for corruption. That this whole thing could have all been set up and it’s all show. 

Now this is a little more out there and I have no link for backup. Take it as it is.

If you want to get all worked up over something as trivial as my speculation that you read, your welcome!

The issue is that you attack people for representing positions that you yourself waffle on. These positions are used by you in contradiction of each other to make varying statements in support of the PRC. The fact that you are not consistent is not a big issue, that you attack people making their own speculations is.

Sean in Ottawa

WWWTT wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Taiwan’s indigenous people remind Xi Jinping that it has “never belonged to China”

https://qz.com/1518787/taiwans-indigenous-people-remind-xi-jinping-it-ha...

Odd? I never heard anything like this from the many ethnic groups in Guangxi. I’m sure the nationalists in Taiwan for decades never helped. 

Yes -- very odd -- that you would even suggest that what you hear in Guangxi (Mainland China est of HK) is presumed by yourself as somehow contradictory or even representative of what Indigenous people might be saying on the island of Taiwan.

Also odd that you remain unwilling to consider that Indigenous people in one place may have a different persepctive and interests from Indigenous people in another place.

I won't even both to get into the issue of the press freedom of Indigenous peoples comparitively between the PRC and Taiwan.

Of course any Chinese person would know that the representation of the Zhuang by the CCP has been one loaded by the politics. There are many sources people can simply google. Here is one paper

https://scholarbank.nus.edu.sg/bitstream/10635/118867/1/SomrakPhDThesis.pdf

also there is no discussion about Guangxi joining the PRC or not it is firmly under the control of the PRC.

There is also the Yao people in Guangxi a smaller group.

Interestingly, I have had long conversations with a person who stayed in my house for a year who was of a Yunan minority (province to the west of Guangxi). There are some 25 different ethnic minorities in Yunnan.

There is no similarity or connection between these ethnic groups and the Indigenous people of Taiwan presented in the article.

WWWTT

You’re a real piece of work Sean in Ottawa. This is a debate forum where a whole bunch of stuff gets thrown around. I criticized the minister Freeland for essentially doing what I do here, speculating!  Difference is that she’s the minister! A public figure. 

According to you I shouldn’t criticize Freeland because she’s only engaging in speculation like me. 

I’m going to go wash some dishes now and after that make some green tea and enjoy some time with my children. I suggest you get a “life”

Sean in Ottawa

WWWTT wrote:

You’re a real piece of work Sean in Ottawa. This is a debate forum where a whole bunch of stuff gets thrown around. I criticized the minister Freeland for essentially doing what I do here, speculating!  Difference is that she’s the minister! A public figure. 

According to you I shouldn’t criticize Freeland because she’s only engaging in speculation like me. 

I’m going to go wash some dishes now and after that make some green tea and enjoy some time with my children. I suggest you get a “life”

You are cute how you always tell me what I am saying and then criticize what you pretend I am saying.

It is simple -- you speculate and then take offense when others make the exact same speculation. Freeland does not post here at all so your remark is typical bullshit where you deflect into an unrelated stupid comparison. I don't care if you get others to pile on to this bullshit but in a debating place expect to get called on it by someone.

It is fine to change your mind.

It is a problem when you attack people for positions or speculations that you have held in the past.

Nobody here has ever complained about speculation so this is just one of your many deflections.

WWWTT

No actually you’re full of shit!  Also not the first time I caught you writing stupid stuff. I’m done with you for a bit. 

Sean in Ottawa

WWWTT wrote:

No actually you’re full of shit!  Also not the first time I caught you writing stupid stuff. I’m done with you for a bit. 

You caught me? Amazingly arrogant and quite content free.

NorthReport

Huawei: ARM memo tells staff to stop working with China’s tech giant

https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-48363772