In Terms of Human Rights, Nobody Teaches Anything to Cuba

It does, but this thread is about how pure and noble Cuba is when it comes to human rights. If you want to talk about Canadian human rights start another thread.

If you were serious about defending the Cuban revolution against imperialism you would not attempt to set arbitrary limits on its ability to defend itself against saboteurs and terrorists.

Cuba is an example to the world of human rights and concern for the well-being of its citizens. Read the title of this thread again; it's very true.

It's far too easy for the armchair left of north america, who have nothing to lose, to snipe at Cuba as if they were some kind of outlaw nation. All it does is give aid and comfort to those who want to misrepresent Cuba as a country that has no regard for human decency. That is a vile lie, that must be combatted at every turn.

The original Maurice Spector would be a fierce defender of Cuba, just as he was of the early Soviet Union.   

As René Magritte would say, "This is not a tag line". Only he'd say it in French. You may find it rather annoying to have to discipline yourself to ignore parts of certain other people's posts - but not everyone's. Wouldn't it be better to abolish them?

Do you see, lagatta?

This is the kind of reactionary trash you end up allied with when you start dictating your absolute moral imperatives to the Cuban revolution.

"It is easy for the critical intellectual to be a 'friend of Cuba' in good times, at celebrations and invited conferences, in times of lesser threats. It is much harder to be a 'friend of Cuba' when a totalitarian empire threatens the heroic island and puts heavy hands on its defenders." - James Petras

It's entirely possible for both Cuba AND the US to be less than ideal, you know.

Well, we disagree on Petras. I've read enough of his campist crap. It isn't remotely Marxist. And his almost anti-Semitic take on support for the Palestinians (I have been involved in Palestine support for decades, and a lot of wrangling with babble Zionists)...

The French Wikipedia article on him summarises why many, many radical leftists I know from different continents can't stand the guy:

Plusieurs de ses thèses sont assez controversées au sein de la gauche altermondialiste. Petras considère que les attentats du 11 septembre ne sont pas dus à un groupe islamiste radical et que l'attribution de ces attentats à Al Qaida est injustifiée (voir James Petras, Washington's Conspiracy Theory Rejected, September 24, 2001). Il revendique la défense du patriotisme des Etats-Unis dont la souveraineté serait mise en péril par l'alliance entre le complexe militaro-industriel, l'AIPAC (American Israel Public Affairs Committee) et le JINSA (Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs), deux organismes qu'il présente comme formant un "lobby sioniste". D'après lui, la politique des Etats-Unis au Moyen-Orient ne correspond pas aux intérêts de ce pays, mais exclusivement à ceux de ces intérêts privés et de l'État d'Israël. Il prône la constitution d'une alliance contre ce "lobby" qui dépasserait les clivages traditionnels entre la gauche et la droite. Plusieurs courants de gauche ont critiqué ces positions qu'ils qualifient d'antisémites. (Voir: Sam Manuel, More middle class radicals promote Jew-hatred, The Militant, May 15, 2006).

(This quotes "the Militant", but none of the people I know have any link with that journal or current). I prefer quoting the French wiki site as it is les liable to have been freeped by Zionists than the English ones. But many anti-Zionists I know consider Petras an anti-Semite.

Poor Maurice Spector...

I'm amused about the "North Americans"... so Mexicans have no right to criticise Cuba, but Salvadoreans do?

Very little French spoken in Cuba.

There is no justification for Cuba retaining the death penalty just like there is no justification for the US retaining the death penalty.

There is no justification for the US period.

Nobody has the right- and least of all the US- to be teaching the Cubans about human rights.

But the Communist Party uses this as a cover for acting as if it also means they have nothing to learn about human rights.

Party leaders and member will talk endlessly about progress they need to make on human rights.... but only ones they acknowledge as being important or 'relevant to Cuba'.

This thread is hilarious. Cuba would be even poorer if Canadians and Europeans had the same lack of rights as Cubans, ie not allowed to travel for pleasure. It is pure hypocrisy to stay in a four-star hotel and be waited on by Cubans who will never and are not allowed to stay in these same hotels. Some socialism! It is dependent on capitalist tourism for survival. And even at that, the standard of living is very poor. Travellers vacationing to Cuba often bring soap, tampons, toothbrushes etc. as tips for hotel staff, which are much appreciated. It is sad that there can be no honest discussion of this country on this board.

Ghislaine, I don't think it is fair to compare the disposable income of Canadians and Western Europeans with the Cuban standard of living. Cuba has a very high rate of "human development" (education, healthcare, income, sexual and racial equality) and an exceptional one for the part of the world it is located in. The initial post was utterly correct about that. This also means less violent crime than in nearby countries such as Haiti, Dominican Republic, Salvador or Nicaragua - where there is a veritable "war on women" of unpunished rapes, beatings and often killings.

I am a socialist, and I think Cuba is most admirable in many ways.

I know lots of people in this neighbourhood from the above countries - alas if they arrived via boat the US would most likely have turned them back or allowed them to die.

Tourism as an income-generating industry is very contradictory indeed, as in a relatively poor country (not just Cuba, all the countries in the region) it inevitably means the sex trade, perhaps drugs, and the development of all kinds of traffics. But no country can live as an island.

That is one of the reasons Cubans may not have access to hotels for tourists from the global North. It pisses Cubans off (they might not be able to afford the hotel room, but they would enjoy splurging on a drink at the bar, and dancing). But the sex trade, often involving teens of both sexes, bothers them more.

One development that I see as most positive for Cuba and for human rights (in the political and free-speech sense) is the growing ties with other progressive governments in Latin America. This doesn't just give Cuba access to petroleum from Venezuela and foodstuffs from Ecuador and Bolivia, and those countries access to Cuban healthcare professionals and other technicians, it also opens up eyes and perspectives in both directions. So Cubans to enjoy more access to internet and different press sources, but they also see deeply unequal societies that are often violent ones as well, for this reason.

I pretty much agree with Ken on this thread - Western governments, and in particular the US government which not only has maintained a punishing embargo for decades but also carrying out gross human rights right on the island, at Guantanamo, have no business lecturing Cuba. But the Cuban government uses this hypocrisy to wave off criticism from leftists and human rights activists who are not in the pay of imperialist powers.

Ghislaine I find it mildly amusing that you would be honest in saying that you don't believe in socialism but then you tell people who do how it must be defined.  The biggest market in the world is closed to the productive capabilities of socialist enterprise.  Imperialists work hard to destroy any glimmer of socialism that appears. Instead of preaching about those terrible Cubans why don't you talk about ending the blockade and normalizing trade. There is a context to Cuba and that is a context of perpetual war by the largest military power this planet has ever spawned. Besides prior to 1959 the main industry in Cuba was mafia controlled tourism.  If the imperialists win and the socialist government is defeated the people of Cuba will not see an improvement in their lives.  

The war on terror has seen my country enact fascist style legislation limiting the basic habeas corpus rights that underpin all our rights as citizens in a parliamentary democracy because we MIGHT be the subject of a terrorist attack. I like to put governmental action into the context of the global village but starting with how my country does on the same issues. 

As for old bolsehie trollie tell me why compare the poverty in Cuba to Honduras? Seems to me how it compares to life on First Nations territory in Canada both rural and urban would be a better thing for a Canadian to look at. Otherwise you are merely showing a superiority complex consistent with a true believer in the benefits of being part of the empire. 

So to both of you I ask, Cuba has been at war with a superpower for 50 years what's our excuse?

There is no justification for the conveyer belts of death in Texas and Florida and Mississippi and Alabama etc etc no. Cuba does not compare with the U.S. in terms of state-sponsored executions.

Cuba does not compare to the U.S. at all in terms of gulag population. The U.S. incarcerates more of its citizens than any other country in the world.

In fact, the U.S. maintains the largest gulag population on the island of Cuba at Guantanamo where torture and basic human rights abuses are the way.

Cuban's economic despair doesnt even compare with those Central American shitholes just a few day's drive from Crazy George Bush's Texas.

Cuba lost its ability for two-way trade with its largest and most natural geographic trade partner after the revolution. Imagine that Newfoundland or PEI or Vancouver Island was cutoff from exporting anything to Canada and having to import everything from other countries at a high premium.  

I refuse to equate the vast human rights abuses in the USSA and its client states with anything that occurs in Cuba. Kids go to school all day in Cuba. That isnt true of all El Salvadoran or Guatemalan or Honduran children. Cuba does not have right-wing death squads trained at the infamous Skool of the Americas. Cuba is not a U.S.-sponsored shithole that Haiti is or Dominican Republic or Colombia, Mexico or Peru.

And I dont appreciate being referred to as a Stalinist in the way that Trotskyites bandy that term about in condemning every revolution as imperfect except for that one which will never happen.

As René Magritte would say, "This is not a tag line". Only he'd say it in French. You may find it rather annoying to have to discipline yourself to ignore parts of certain other people's posts - but not everyone's. Wouldn't it be better to abolish them?

Only someone who is completely unfamiliar with what is happening in Cuba and how the Cuban leaders actually respond to these criticisms could make statements like that.

In an interview following the executions of three hijackers in 2003 (the only executions carried out in the last 8 years in Cuba) Fidel Castro made it clear that the Cubans keep the death penalty on the books only as a matter of self defence of the revolution, and that they look forward to the day when they can abolish it. Here's an excerpt:

As René Magritte would say, "This is not a tag line". Only he'd say it in French. You may find it rather annoying to have to discipline yourself to ignore parts of certain other people's posts - but not everyone's. Wouldn't it be better to abolish them?

Look, his (and by association your) entire argument boils down to "capital punishment is aceptable so long as it's only used against enemies of the state".

Very progressive - not!

I think there should be a policy on this board of banning all ignorant right-wing twits who pose as "progressives" while equating third-world countries that are trying to get out from under the yoke of imperialism with the countries that oppress them.

As René Magritte would say, "This is not a tag line". Only he'd say it in French. You may find it rather annoying to have to discipline yourself to ignore parts of certain other people's posts - but not everyone's. Wouldn't it be better to abolish them?

Since when did the death penalty become an issue of fundamental human rights?

Those who are so high and mighty about it should look to their own country first - before engaging in transparent and disgusting Cuba-bashing:

- Amend the Charter so that the death penalty cannot be reintroduced by some simple act of Parliament.

- Reverse the Harper government new policy of letting Canadian citizens be executed by the U.S. and other "democracies" without protest.

- If you don't want to be outed as an anti-Cuba hypocritical propagandist, make sure to hurl equal levels of invective against the 103 other countries that still have the death penalty on their books.

Thread Title: In Terms of Human Rights, Nobody Teaches Anything to Cuba.

Cuba has the death penalty.

Cuba in fact has much to learn from others.

If you don't want to discuss Cuba's death penalty, then don't start threads that are blatantly false... I mean it's not as if people just woke up one morning and decided that it would be fun to dis Cuba.

Nice attempt to silence people who oppose the death penalty everywhere for any reason.  I suppose the requirement to string someone up by a rope is all just a matter of context.

touche!

It's hypocrisy only if a person has two standards, one for Cuba (or any other other place) and one for everyone else. True progressives have only one standard: No death penalty anywhere. Focus on the anywhere part, please.

I was responding in kind to a self-righteous twit who wanted to silence me for defending the Cuban revolution.

-----

Here's an excerpt from the statement of the Federation of Cuban Women, May 2003

As René Magritte would say, "This is not a tag line". Only he'd say it in French. You may find it rather annoying to have to discipline yourself to ignore parts of certain other people's posts - but not everyone's. Wouldn't it be better to abolish them?

I understand the underlying context of the extract you posted.  However, I also see that those justifications for the extermination of a human being, however repugnant those individuals may very well be, could have also come from the Texas State Correctional Services with some slight editing work.

Fidel, how does murdering another human being advance a society?

The simple answer is: It is the business of the Cuban people. It is none of your business whatsoever.

Once you make it your business - like whether women should have the right to be educated in Afghanistan or not - then your armed Crusaders follow, to teach the heathen the ways of their superiors.

The Cuban people will decide. They have survived almost 50 years in the face of the hypocritical murderers who preach "democracy" at them. They will survive some more.

Well. that's not the only thing Canada could teach Cuba about human rights.

The assertion by some here that Cuba is somehow under seige-and has been so for umpteen decades-is nonsense.

 Planes fly over Cuba hourly and air transit rights are one of the Cuban Govts major sources of revenue.

Defending Govt sanctioned murder?

 Sad, sad, sad......

The notion that Cuba needs defending against these asinine hypocritical charges is rather amusing. Cuba has survived worse attacks and more clever enemies than these.

Thanks for the kind words nice to know it's not just people who support murder whom you abuse.

The Bahia de Cochinos was before many here were born and if the CIA wanted to plug Castro they would have done it long long ago-Cuba is a relatively  small place with few good hiding spots-I know I've cycled over a lot of it.

Remember how quickly the USA took out Noriega, and how rapidly the Govt of Grenada was taken down? 

You're a despicable troll. Fidel did agree to U.S. managed elections in Cuba in 1958, but the CIA-Gusano led military attack on Cuba was viewed by Cubans as a signifcant a betrayal of democracy by the U.S. The vicious empire and its CIA-sponsored terrorists have murdered far more Cubans than the three executed by Cuba.

 The only real threat to human rights on the island of Cuba is the illegal American gulag for torture and murder and Guantanamo Bay naval base. One US gulag for torture and basic human rights abuses is so secret that it has no official name.

And what democratic country tries to assassinate another country's leader over 600 times? http://www.638waystokillcastro.com/

Congresswoman admits calling for Fidel's assassination - Ros-Lehtinen is forced to retract denial - Orlando Sentinel, US 25/12/06

The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles. - Marx & Engels. (This is a Tag)

The CIA failed to kill Castro but it certainly wasn't for lack of trying!

Until the 1990s Cuba was protected by the not insignificant problem for the US that it was a key ally of the Soviet Union. Invasion would have invited a Soviet response with possibly world-ending consequences. Afterwards, certainly the US has had no pressing interest in taking Cuba by force (besides, this would be ugly compared to Panama or Grenada)and there was some talk of normalizing relations but by that point American politicians an important domestic interest in continuing to ostracize Cuba.

And you support CIA sponsored terrorism against Cuba.

You support the largest incarceration of human beings in Cuba at Guantanamo naval base for torture and basic human rights abuses.  

You support the largest jailer in the world, the USSA.

Just admit it now or forever hold your peace.

This is true. But it still hasnt prevented the CIA and terrorist groups from launching terrorist attacks on Cubans and Cuban infrastructure over the years. And the propaganda war and violation of Cuban airwaves is non-stop.

As a socialist I believe that Cuba should abolish the death penalty...no "ifs", "ands" or "buts".  Some prinicpals I think are universal.  This is one of them.

Having said that, all indications are that Cuba is gradually moving away from the application of the death penalty. That is a positive development. 

There have been only three executions in the last three years and all current death sentences were commuted to life imprisonment on April 30th of this year.

I have been working my way through "Fidel Castro: My Life (with Ignacio Ramonet)"   It's a book put together via a series of relatively recent interviews with Fidel Castro.   

It's a fascinating book.   Fidel is a great story teller.   There are many instances where within the "inner circles" of the government he took certain positions, but was opposed by the majority.   

For example Fidel talks about how he was exposed to "liberation theology" in Chile in the early 1970's but it took quite awhile before he was able to persuade the Cuban Communist Party to permit religious believers to become members.

Cuban society is quite complex.   Debates are taking place all the time...it's just that they may not be "public".

Just because the Cuban government is carrying out a certain policy at a particular time does not mean that there is unanimaty about those policies.

I am sure that within the Cuban party/state there are definitely debates going on around abolishing the death penalty.

Well now they have tonnes and tonnes of the stuff!!!

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/oct/18/cuban-oil

 It remains to be seen what they do with it however-and who they blame for constantly screwing up their country. 

Yeah, read that old_. But at least the Cubans, if they complain at all, are succeeding. Unlike the broke Americans who bomb everyone they blame for fucking over thier own country and people. What's worse than being poor in Cuba? Being a veteran in the USA.

What truly repugnant is the fact that you youself can announce an opinion on any topic, regardless of the region it pertains to, which is what the board is all about, yet attempt to silence anyone else from having their own dissenting opinion on the topics at hand, in an aggressive fashion, while using a condesending and dismissive tone.  I wouldn't have used the same expression, but someone else called it lame.  But yes, I have the answer, even if you are not capable of openly announcing it.  You do, in certain political circumstances, support the use of the death penalty.

Is that all you have to offer? I can't say that I'm surprised, a little disappointed, but not surprised.  I thought there'd be something more substantive, such as 'no, I don't support the death penalty anywhere' but I think I understand where you are with it, and again, it doesn't come as a surprise.

I think it'd be better if you would be so kind to go away, permanently.

From the article referenced in the OP:

The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles - Marx & Engels. (The preceding sentence is a tag line - and so are the words in these parentheses)

Your version of socialism may believe that the death penalty is okay.  My version of socialism does not.   There is not "one socialism" anymore than there is "one Christianity".

You are right.   I meant to say only three executions in the last eight years.  I'm probably tired...too many "3's" on my brain.

But still, in this country we have had individuals commit much more serious crimes than these individuals and they have not been executed.

I do not extrapolate that Cuba has no regard for human rights.  But I think that anyone who extrapolates that Cuba has no human rights problems that need to be dealt with is wearing rose coloured glasses.  I think Fidel would agree with this as well.

All the more reason not to feel the need to uncritically defend every single policy of the Cuban government.   When they are doing something that we think is fundamentally wrong we should say so...but within the spirit of solidarity with the Cuban Revolution.

Closing for length.