The Trump phenomenon 2
Sean in Ottawa wrote:I agree with you in terms of the problem but not really with the root of it. The ordinary people in the states are screwed and they know it.
Trump knows this is the case and is actually saying it directly -- says to African Americans "Vote for me -- I hate you and I am a racist pig -- but what have you got to lose? The Democrats won't do better." And they know, on this, Trump is correrct.
I think the same dynamics exist in Canada and the result was Ford.Sean in Ottawa wrote:The social justice problem in the US comes from some people having too much. The Democrats don't want to come out and say some need to make do with less and so they maintain the fiction that things can be made better without anyone hurting. They have done this for generations. They have taken good care of wealthy donors along the way.
The right of course have a simple argument -- they say the poor have too much -- they want to cut health care, food stamps, assistance etc. They pretend this will go to the middle and maybe they will throw a couple nickles to the middle as the dollars go to the top.
Here too. Canada may be less extreme but the line for decades has been that we can't afford our social services.Sean in Ottawa wrote:The middle and low income people are really hurting and things are hopeless. The right want to turn the middle on the bottom. Tell the middle white folk who are suffering they are poor becuase the poor take welfare, becuase of economic migrants, minorities.... This lets the top class get away with taking the booty. The middle stays struggling and vulnerable to support the next money grab from the most disadvantaged. But the Democrats in pretending they can create justice without the rich giving up money lack credibility. Now, increasingly, that's where the money is.
Absolutely, and the same is occurring in Canada.Sean in Ottawa wrote:Sanders was popular becuase he has come the closest to telling the truth -- "some of you have so much that other people are not making it and you need to have less." His party are not fond of that message as you can imagine. I don't even know if it could win a general election -- it is possible that it would not.
In polls Sanders beat Trump by a higher margin than Clinton but the party still chose Clinton.Sean in Ottawa wrote:Since we are in Canada we have the same problem. Both the NDP and the Liberals played this game in the last election. The NDP pretended that you could have social justice without business and the wealthy paying more -- this is a big part of what earned the NDP its greatest loss of sitting members in history. The Liberals played it differently. They pretended to help the middle when they were really helping those close to the top and they pretended that an increase on taxes above $200,000 would be enough. They conned the population into thinking they had real broadbased relief going to the middle. The truth is they helped families with children (not saying that was not worthy) and those who were very well off and some money from the extremely well off helped to pay for it. Everyone else in the middle got little to nothing. Everyone else has to pick up the difference in government debt or lost services.
Again fully agree. That Trudeau was the one to use the language of occupy and the one to say he would tax the wealthy just left me shaking my head. Almost surreal.Sean in Ottawa wrote:In both cases Liberals and NDP told the public we will give you social justice but it won't cost you anything. They say the same of the environment. And the Democrats peddle the same shite in the US. This is why nobody in the middle gains -- it is great in theory but those with the cash won't pay for it. And the Democrats need donations from with those with the cash.
Yes, although as you noted above, it's not the public that has to pay, it's the wealthy. The right has done a good job of convincing people that it's the wealthy and the middle class against the poor when in truth it is the middle class and the poor who share common cause.
Yep seems like we are entirely in agreement on all this -- I especally like your last paragraph. It is classic divide and conquer diversion. This is also what is happening in the UK as well. Hopelessness does lead to extremism.
This is being written large across the world as wealthy countries blame developing ones for environmental problems when they are still extracting the wealth from those countries and got rich themselves doing the very thing they want the developing nations to stop doing.
This is the MO for the most wealthy globally.