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NorthReport

The Brexit fanatics want you to believe there's no time to reverse things now. But it's not true

We’re a democracy and the people have the right to change their minds when they have been presented with the reality of what Brexit will mean: a slowing economy; food, medical, labour and – to be fair, no one predicted this – even sperm shortages

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-reverse-vote-second-referend...

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Well, if this forces the British into piracy, like Somalia, at least they've probably still got some of the old costumes, and a bit of nautical history to draw on.

"Yar!  Ten coppers and a cup of rum for the man who brings me the sonar antenna from that scurvy French cod boat!"

lagatta4

Two completely different subjects in one post. Firstly, Galloway was wonderfully scathing in his criticism of the war on Iraq and the political forces (and lies) behind it. But I know several women in the UK who can't stand him, and say he is a loathsome sexist.

Secondly, a Guardian article about the culinary and other cultural contributions by refugees turned up this sad and infuriating story about Italian immigrants in Wales dying at sea when they were put on a boat to be taken by force to Canada:

Innocents killed on sunken liner

 

By Gemma Ryall
BBC news website

The Arandora Star was a tragedy that was barely talked about in Welsh Italian communities for years - and is still a sensitive topic for those who lost husbands, fathers, sons and brothers.

Dragged from the lives they had made for themselves in Britain, the Italian men were arrested and interned on Winston Churchill's orders after Italy joined World War II.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/8024642.stm

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Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
The Brexit fanatics want you to believe there's no time to reverse things now. But it's not true

It's not that there's "no time".  It's that the UK left the EU when they invoked article 50.  Now they're just haggling over severance.

Perhaps, though, the UK could officially ask the EU "on a scale of yes or no, if we wanted to stay, would you accept us?".

At least then they'd know where they stand, and whether or not a "do-over" referendum could mean anything other than verifying the UK's buyer's remorse.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

The big problem is that EU membership makes it impossible to do any socialist, social-democratic, or even vaguely progressive.  You can't create an egalitarian, democratic economy or a caring society, a society with humane values in any sense in any sense on a balanced budget-fiscal conservatism serves no purpose but to entrench the power of the wealthy-for anyone else in society it does nothing but damage.

 

josh

Exactly.

brookmere

Ken Burch wrote:
The big problem is that EU membership makes it impossible to do any socialist, social-democratic, or even vaguely progressive. 

So in your view Finland does not qualify as "even vaguely progressive".  Do you have examples of what does?

josh

I think what he means is once you’re in you’re severely constrained in what you can do fiscally.

brookmere

josh wrote:

I think what he means is once you’re in you’re severely constrained in what you can do fiscally.

Finland's total government spending/GDP is 55% which as far as I know is the highest of any Western country. As far as EU membership constraining deficits or debt, it doesn't seem to be the case for Italy, which has been a member of the EU and its predecessors from the beginning.

Note also that both these countries use the Euro. The UK doesn't of course which gives it control of monetary policy that the others don't have.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Ken Burch wrote:

The big problem is that EU membership makes it impossible to do any socialist, social-democratic, or even vaguely progressive.  You can't create an egalitarian, democratic economy or a caring society, a society with humane values in any sense in any sense on a balanced budget-fiscal conservatism serves no purpose but to entrench the power of the wealthy-for anyone else in society it does nothing but damage.

 

..this is not limited to the eu. this is a global issue. and this is why the municipalist movements arose.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..finland has it's own history and set of dynamics. you can't replicate that with a cookie cutter. and you certainly can't say look capitalism works, you just need the right leadership.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
..finland has it's own history and set of dynamics. you can't replicate that with a cookie cutter.

Perhaps.  But then the question becomes whether the impediments to reproducing Finland's successes are the EU and its policies, or something else altogether.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

The big problem is that the EU requires you to have a perpetually balanced budget.  As we all know, this makes an egalitarian society of any sort impossible, since it's not possible to do fiscally conservative egalitarianism.

josh

brookmere wrote:

josh wrote:

I think what he means is once you’re in you’re severely constrained in what you can do fiscally.

Finland's total government spending/GDP is 55% which as far as I know is the highest of any Western country. As far as EU membership constraining deficits or debt, it doesn't seem to be the case for Italy, which has been a member of the EU and its predecessors from the beginning.

Note also that both these countries use the Euro. The UK doesn't of course which gives it control of monetary policy that the others don't have.

The EU restricts how high a budget deficit you can run.  And what percentage of GDP those deficits can be. This led to the disastrous recessions in Greece and Spain, with unemployment over 20%, because they were barred from implementing Keynesian counter cyclical measures.  Why should the UK give up its right to control its own fiscal policy.

NDPP

Euromania: A Documentary by Peter Vlemmit

https://youtu.be/cO4Ayo4mYZg

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

How does Finland get around that?

josh

Countries came in as is.  They obviously must have a very high tax rate, and have escaped serious downturns.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
..finland has it's own history and set of dynamics. you can't replicate that with a cookie cutter.

Perhaps.  But then the question becomes whether the impediments to reproducing Finland's successes are the EU and its policies, or something else altogether.

..for arguments sake lets call finland's success social democracy. nothing prevented the ndp from cookie cutting. finland isn't the poster person that advocates for social democracy make it out to be. ideas can be shared but the finland experience can't be replicated. 

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..the reason i came into this thread today is because i have a different take on what words like democracy and egalitarian mean. i'm of the same mind as chomsky when he says that governments are not democratic. they were never meant to be. they serve the interests of a minority of elites.

..so when these words democracy and egalitarian are used i expect to see where the populations come into the picture. what power to the people looks like. what the ground up structures need to be created. i never do though except for the stuff i post from time to time. instead over and over again i see the focus is the party. labour. dems. the ndp.  

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
nothing prevented the ndp from cookie cutting.

Conversely, why should they bother?

People like to hold up the Scandinavian social democracies as some example that we could all follow, but if we don't have their exact history then I guess it's doomed to failure.  I'm glad that Norway's "Sovereign Wealth Fund" is investing oil profits in the welfare of the entire population, but we're not Norwegian, so why should we try to "cookie cutter" something that could never work for us?

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..to get to doomed is quite the leap magoo.

eta:..i see social democracy as a failed ideology. it doesn't call for the end of capitalism. it pretends it can control it.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
nothing prevented the ndp from cookie cutting.

Conversely, why should they bother?

People like to hold up the Scandinavian social democracies as some example that we could all follow, but if we don't have their exact history then I guess it's doomed to failure.  I'm glad that Norway's "Sovereign Wealth Fund" is investing oil profits in the welfare of the entire population, but we're not Norwegian, so why should we try to "cookie cutter" something that could never work for us?

What Norway does is great, but it doesn't discredit the argument that the EU inhibits social democracy, and what Norway does with its oil revenues, innovative as the idea is, isn't directly applicable to the UK situation-the UK has had the North Sea oil reserves, but those have been heavily tapped and production has been in continuous decline since the Nineties.  And there's no comparable possibilities for Canada unless Alberta oil is nationalized, which is never going to happen.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

epaulo13 wrote:

..to get to doomed is quite the leap magoo.

eta:..i see social democracy as a failed ideology. it doesn't call for the end of capitalism. it pretends it can control it.

And capitalism has been on a relentless campaign to claw back every concession it ever made to social democratic values, with virtually no social democratic party, save Labour under Corbyn, has challenged the clawback campaign since the late Eighties.  This is why every social democratic party on the European mainland is in long-term electoral decline, including the original social democratic party, Germany's SPD, which has fallen to 16% support in the most recent poll, one point BEHIND the racist, all-but-Nazi Alliance For Germany (AfD).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_German_federa...

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

"doomed to failure" is just a common term for inevitable failure.

I'm just saying that if the UK can't replicate the successes of Finland because -- by definition -- they lack Finland's history then surely no country can simply try to "cookie cutter" the success of any other country whose history they similarly lack.

People seem to think that countries can just borrow good ideas from other countries and acheive good outcomes, but your post #717 puts lie to that kind of silly talk. 

Would you like to walk it back?  Suggest that perhaps what one country does successfully, maybe others could choose to do too?  Like the UK (just to get back on topic)?  Could the UK do things, even under the yoke of the EU, that are similar to what Finland does under the yoke of the EU?

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..have a closer look at why corbyn is expeiencing some victories. it's because of the grassroots movements. grassroots is the future

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

People seem to think that countries can just borrow good ideas from other countries and acheive good outcomes, but your post #717 puts lie to that kind of silly talk.

..it does no such thing.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
..it does no such thing.

OK.  Then can you tell us again why the UK couldn't just do what Finland has done, despite the EU?

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..i said they couldn't replicate the finland experience. i didn't say they couldn't adopt some of their policies. corbyn says the eu couldn't prevent his program. i take him at his word.

NDPP

Latest Skripal Development is Rocket Fuel to Existing Anti-Russia Fever in London

https://on.rt.com/9dqr

"In her statement to the Commons on this latest development, Theresa May wasted no time in unleashing a rhetorical artillery barrage against the Kremlin, buoyed by a feral chorus of MPs who almost to a man and woman had already embraced Russia as the officially designated enemy of all that is holy and good in the world.

Worryingly, in 2018 we have reached the stage that George Orwell described in his classic novel 1984: 'The enemy of the moment always represented absolute evil and it followed that no past or future agreement with him was possible.'

Western ideologues should take a moment to consider that Orwell wrote his classic work as a warning not a blueprint."

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
..i said they couldn't replicate the finland experience. i didn't say they couldn't adopt some of their policies.

Could they replicate the Finland RESULT?

I'm not asking about an experience.  But if they also can't get the same RESULT by doing the same things, why do so many people seem to think it would be a good idea to do the same things?

Quote:
And there's no comparable possibilities for Canada unless Alberta oil is nationalized, which is never going to happen.

To be fair, why should we nationalize Alberta oil, if there's no reason to believe we'd enjoy some of the same benefits as Finland?  For all we know, the RESULTS could even be worse.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
..i said they couldn't replicate the finland experience. i didn't say they couldn't adopt some of their policies.

Could they replicate the Finland RESULT?

I'm not asking about an experience.  But if they also can't get the same RESULT by doing the same things, why do so many people seem to think it would be a good idea to do the same things?

Quote:
And there's no comparable possibilities for Canada unless Alberta oil is nationalized, which is never going to happen.

To be fair, why should we nationalize Alberta oil, if there's no reason to believe we'd enjoy some of the same benefits as Finland?  For all we know, the RESULTS could even be worse.

..the experience includes the result and it's not possible to replicate finland because were not talking mathematics. it's the politics that shape the result. if gb or can adopted similar policies both would be different from each other and from finland. same could be said with countries that have adopted universal health care. you already know this magoo. i don't understand why you've been stuck. 

eta:..let me be more exact for can. if the ndp was elected federally and adopted finland policies it would still have to negotiate with not only the other federal parties but with the provinces. how could that process possibly end up where finland is?

josh
NDPP

'Prepare for Cyberwar' - Anonymous Sources Brief Right-Wing Press on May's 'Revenge' Against Russia (and vid)

https://on.rt.com/9dsb

"Britain's super-secret security services have been anonymously briefing the right-wing press over Theresa May's plans to launch a cyber war against Russia, in retaliation for the alleged involvement in the Salisbury poisonings.  The activities of Russia were, for May, a threat to 'all our allies and to all our citizens.'

She then promised 'whatever is necessary to keep our people safe.' According to 'a senior government official,' referred to in the Times, 'the evidence that Russia carried out a chemical weapons attack on British soil has increased the actions UK can take in self-defence.' 'They're going to have to pay a cost for what they've done. Nothing is off the table now..."

NDPP

Skripals - The Mystery Deepens   -   by Craig Murray

https://twitter.com/CraigMurrayOrg/status/1037631611544723456

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

NDPP wrote:

Skripals - The Mystery Deepens   -   by Craig Murray

https://twitter.com/CraigMurrayOrg/status/1037631611544723456

Very good analysis. Here is a direct link to the article.

NDPP

Gorilla Radio, Sept 6, 2018 @ 34:50 (podcast)

http://gorilla-radio.com/2018/09/gorilla-radio-chris-cook-daniel-kovalik...

CFUV's Chris Cook interviews senior international journo John Helmer on the Skripal case.

Sean in Ottawa

Running a deficit or not is not the deciding factor in whether a government is progressive.

Running unsustainable social programs with no plan to pay for them becuase you don't want to tax those with the money is really a lie.

A deficit is a tool to make investments or manage a downturn. I disagree that you cannot be progressive without one, even though it certainly is a difficulty.

If you are willing to tax business and wealthy people to pay their share, unless you are in a downturn or need an imediate large investment, you can be very progressive. Running a deficit is no indication, of itself, that anything good will happen to the money. Just look south for proof of that.

Not running a deficit but taxing wealthier people and corporations can allow for a more sustainable system Not just because you can obviously pay for what you are doing, but also if a more conservative government gets elected, it cannot pretend that these things are not affordable.

NDPP

George Galloway, MOATS, Friday, Sept 7, 2018 (podcast)

http://talkradio.co.uk/radio/listen-again/1536343200

On Tony Blair, Jeremy Corbyn, Boris Johnson, Skripal affair and much more..

NDPP

Israel Is A Racist Endeavour

https://twitter.com/jewssf/status/1037641597473775616

"These posters saying 'ISRAEL IS A RACIST ENDEAVOUR' have made an enormous impact. The IHRA bogus definition seems to have had the unintended consequence of drawing attention to the obvious fact that Israel IS a racist endeavour."

NorthReport
NDPP

Explosive Skripal Allegations May Blow Up in Syria - George Galloway

https://on.rt.com/9e31

"Explosive Skripal allegations will probably blow up in Syria's Idlib where the US/UK axis is cocked, ready to fire. The UK media lost their collective mind over Russia but their masters have not. There is method in their madness..."

NDPP

We Know Who People Named as Suspects in Skripal Case Are, They Are Civilians - Putin (and vid)

https://on.rt.com/9e5a

"Saying that there is 'nothing criminal' about the two, Putin also hoped that the people in question will eventually come forward and talk to the media. 'I want  to address them...I hope they contact the media, I hope they appear and tell everything about themselves,' he said..."

NDPP

Skripal Case Developments:

The Roast of Theresa May

https://youtu.be/zRNPVOAdQqk

Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Zakharova exposes pathetic UK Intel attempts to frame Russia.

RT Editor-in-Chief's Exclusive Interview with Skripal Case Suspects (and vid)

https://on.rt.com/9e8k

"We simply want to be left in peace..."

UK Claims Men in RT Interview were GRU Intel Agents Despite their Denial

https://on.rt.com/9e8q

"Speaking to RT, Charles Shoebridge, a former British military officer, stressed that it is very strange for well-trained Russian intelligence specialists to leave such a 'reckless and clear trail of evidence' that would lead the investigators directly to Russia."

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
UK Claims Men in RT Interview were GRU Intel Agents Despite their Denial

What kind of sick world do we live in when a simple denial isn't the immediate end of it??

They denied it.  Move on!  Keep looking for the real culprit, who you will know because he will not deny it.

NorthReport

Finally some constructive political leadership emanating from the UK

https://globalnews.ca/news/4454809/second-brexit-referendum-london-mayor-sadiq-khan/

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