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epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

How ‘indicative votes’ are held will be crucial to their success

Has the House of Commons has finally come to the end of its tether and taken control of the Brexit process? Sort of. It didn’t vote for Margaret Beckett’s anti-‘no deal’ solution last night. But MPs did approve an amendment tabled by Oliver Letwin to the government’s latest neutral Brexit motion, opting to hold ‘indicative votes’.

This will allow parliamentarians to vote on a number of Brexit options on Wednesday, tomorrow, in the hope that such a process – promoting cross-party alliances, with an honest and collaborative approach – will help establish which course of action has the most support. Most options will likely concern changes to the political declaration defining our future relationship with the EU.

With the third meaningful vote on Theresa May’s deal definitely not happening today, Westminster’s focus will be on how to conduct the indicative votes. The organisers are determined not to include any ‘unicorns’, i.e. options that require reopening the withdrawal agreement, which the EU has firmly ruled out many times.

quote:

It seems MPs will be expressing their views on various iterations of soft Brexit: May’s deal with customs union; Labour’s deal (customs union, dynamic alignment on rights, etc); the Norway-style Common Market 2.0 (single market membership). But how? Some are pushing for a preferential voting system, while others worry this would be a damaging breach of convention – even more so than MPs taking control of the parliamentary agenda.

The method (and whether MPs are whipped) is important, as the Prime Minister will be hoping that no alternative to her deal gains a majority and MPs are forced back to square one. There are other concerns. As Gareth Snell, who abstained on Letwin, pointed out: what if the votes produce a result that is convenient for neither Labour nor Tories, and no deal is left as the most likely outcome once whipping kicks in?

Pogo Pogo's picture

Is there no logical justification for reconsideration. 

X % of citizens sign petition?

X% of citizens march in rallies?

X% of citizens attest to switching their choice?

X # of election irregularities (Aaron Banks, Cambridge Analytical and all that)

Is there a value for X for any of these questions?

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

I would suggest that for the first two, X>16,141,241.

The third is hard to say, since anyone who voted Remain could claim they voted Leave and have reconsidered.  There's no record of who voted how.

And for the fourth, the government needs to investigate this/these just as they would any other allegations of electoral fraud.  There's no specific number of allegations that would mean they could just skip that step.

NDPP

Ed Snowden Vents Dismay at EU Copyright 'Reform'

https://twitter.com/MayaWintersSMS/status/1110554706726793216

"I hope that our Westminster MPs are taking notice of Article 13. The UK needs to leave the EU immediately. This is the beginning of the end for freedom of expression in the EU."

voice of the damned

So, are libertarian copyright laws now a major promise of the brexiteers?

NorthReport
kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Pogo wrote:

Is there no logical justification for reconsideration. 

X % of citizens sign petition?

X% of citizens march in rallies?

X% of citizens attest to switching their choice?

X # of election irregularities (Aaron Banks, Cambridge Analytical and all that)

Is there a value for X for any of these questions?

42 is the answer to everything.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Indicative votes: 16 Brexit options tabled by MPs

The House of Commons will take control of parliamentary business and hold ‘indicative votes’ today to try to establish which Brexit plan has the most support. Ahead of the debate, MPs have tabled 16 Brexit options.

This afternoon, at around 3.30pm, the Speaker will announce which of these options have been selected. MPs will start voting on them, choosing ‘Yes’ or ‘No’ for each option, at 7pm.

Here’s a very quick guide to the 16 options put forward…

(A) Constitutional and accountable government

Sir William Cash, Sir Bernard Jenkin, etc

Says the Commons “respects the will of the people”. Scraps the plan to resume the indicative votes process on Monday.

(B) No deal

John Baron, Sir David Amess

Would see the UK leave without a deal on 12th April.

(C) Unilateral right of exit from backstop

John Baron, Andrew Percy,

Agrees to leave with May’s deal on 22nd May – amended to allow the UK to unilateral exit from the backstop......

Pogo Pogo's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

I would suggest that for the first two, X>16,141,241.

The third is hard to say, since anyone who voted Remain could claim they voted Leave and have reconsidered.  There's no record of who voted how.

And for the fourth, the government needs to investigate this/these just as they would any other allegations of electoral fraud.  There's no specific number of allegations that would mean they could just skip that step.

I only post this because whenever epaulo13  posts evidence of the changing mood, about 3 posters (yourself included) make posts about how this is actually meaningless and should be ignored.  So a re-vote rally of a million people versus a Brexit march which at one point had about 25 people in it are not evidence of anything.  Somehow a non-binding referendum has become so set in stone that there is no level of evidence that will not be dismissed as meaningless.

 

NDPP

"I cannot accept that a decision made by 17 1/2 million people, the largest number of people to vote for anything or anyone in our entire history can be set aside...I cannot accept MPs deciding that whatever the people thought, the people were wrong and therefore the MPs will decide what we get..."

https://twitter.com/georgegalloway/status/1110828236039208960

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

To defeat an insurgent far-right, Labour must resist Brexit with all its force

“This is the worst night of my life”, wrote Twitter user Mark C, after MPs took control of the Brexit process on Monday. “I feel like everything I held dear, as a citizen in a democratic country, has been crushed. My vote crushed, even though it won. My morale crushed. My belief in who I am crushed.”

To which I say, rejoice. For Mark C is a Ukip member and self-described “Tommy Robinson supporter”, and has Tommy’s mug emblazoned on his Twitter masthead. Some of his mates are not happy either. The alt-right Twittersphere are now, variously, predicting civil war, threatening to withhold council tax, to occupy parliament and to never vote again. The trouble is scheduled to kick off at 4pm this Friday outside Westminster.

While the press is mesmerised by parliament, the real action of this week is going on inside the brains and social networks of Britain’s emergent fascist movement. It is still possible that, through the venality of the DUP, the careerism of Boris Johnson and the cowardice of a few Labour MPs, Theresa May will get the Withdrawal Agreement through. But what is clear already to Britain’s far right is that Brexit as a project of xenophobia and white supremacy is over.

The best they’ll get is what their own parliamentary avatars describe as a “vassal state”. At worst they’re staying in Europe, albeit after a second referendum in which they get, once again, to pump racist lies into our civil society.

As a result, though many variables remain in play from the Brexit crisis, one thing is already clear. There is no avoiding the culture war. It is here.

When Conservative MP Suella Braverman insulted the Remain camp using the anti-Semitic “cultural Marxism” trope, she was immediately defended by voices as varied as Leave.EU and the Spectator editor Fraser Nelson. But this is only the start. Boris Johnson has already railed against the “deep state”. And this is just the tip of a whole iceberg of far-right paranoia that is about to be unleashed.....

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..more from the above piece.

quote:

There is a perfectly good argument for a left-wing exit from Europe: to regain sovereign space for the actions of radical left government against a superstate with neoliberalism written into its constitution.

The problem is, first, the Withdrawal Agreement is not that: it is a shabby compromise whereby Britain actually cedes sovereignty to the EU in return for a temporary customs union. As John McDonnell’s former economic advisor James Meadway recently wrote in the NS, the detail of the Withdrawal Agreement allows the EU to pull Britain’s access to European financial markets at will, and would be a powerful tool of statecraft for the EU’s neoliberal centre against an incoming Corbyn government.

Secondly, and more importantly, this Brexit – the actually existing crisis we are living through – is a project entirely designed and implemented by a racist, xenophobic wing of British neoliberalism, linked to a global alliance whose project is to smash the multilateral system.

NorthReport

Thanks Pogo for your post #1060 

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

James Meadway recently wrote:

Theresa May's Brexit deal would be disastrous for a future left government

quote:

But a rare point of harmony between EU and UK governments has been on the continuation of EU State Aid and competition law provisions – even in the event of a “no-deal” Brexit. These significantly restrict the ability of democratic governments to intervene in their economies – potentially even including parts of Labour’s 2017 manifesto. But the restriction is not absolute, and the real question is the degree of interventionist freedom that a domestic government can win. The aim for a future Labour government, in particular, should be to win as much freedom as it can, while recognising that as long as a close, collaborative arrangement with Europe is desired, this will never be absolute.

However, Brussels officials have cited the “threat” of a Jeremy Corbyn government as driving their determination to keep existing restrictions firmly in place. The EU-UK Withdrawal Agreement observes the existing rules, as does the customs union “backstop”, but of more concern is the insistence in the (less-discussed, but ultimately more important) Outline Political Declaration that the UK will build on the “level playing field” of the Withdrawal Agreement. Even worse, the final arbiter on interpretation of those rules will still be the European Court of Justice – only now the UK would have no say over the making of those laws.

More insidiously, the loss of passporting rights for UK financial services, granting them the right to trade in European financial markets, creates another bulwark against a future government of the left. The replacement of passporting with the (less-comprehensive) “equivalence” regime grants financial market access to non-member states only at the EU’s discretion, and this discretion can be removed with just 30 days’ notice. Discussions on “enhanced equivalence” are highly unlikely to alter the fundamentals. For countries with large, internationally-focused financial service sectors, the threat of losing access to their main market abroad creates a gaping economic wound waiting to be poked.

The EU will not hesitate to use the leverage this creates, as Switzerland has recently discovered. Jean-Claude Juncker asked for a “stick” to use against the Swiss government, and control over financial market access has proved perfect in negotiations.....

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

Labour MPs will be whipped to back public vote

Jeremy Corbyn will whip Labour MPs to support a Brexit referendum in the indicative votes – but could face a wave of resignations from frontbenchers determined not to back it.

The Guardian understands a delegation of shadow ministers, including known second referendum sceptics Ian Lavery, Jon Trickett and Richard Burgon, held a meeting lasting more than two hours on Tuesday evening with John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor.

One shadow minister warned Labour would face “a very significant rebellion” if it tried to force MPs to back the motion, and another said: “If we whip for it, we won’t have a shadow cabinet by the end of the day.”....

MegB

Continued here.

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