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NDPP

"Yes indeed the EU will be in serious trouble even without the BREXIT Party. I look upon it as karma itself. Bad idea taking on the British working class majority."

https://twitter.com/communicipalist/status/1118577482691694593

Sean in Ottawa

epaulo13 wrote:

..why such a discrepancy with yougov?

 

Both are Yougov -- different dates?

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

..txs. the brexit party surpassing labour just doesn't make sense. 

NDPP

Neither does your support for the neoliberal EU against the British working class majority vote to be out of it.

"In the main, the content and outcomes of EU neoliberal policies have been similar in all the member states. Faced with EU hostility, therefore, the popular left should reject the single market and its institutional and legal framework..."

http://www.cadtm.org/Manifesto-for-a-new-popular-internationalism-in-Europe

NDPP

Galloway on Pelosi

https://youtu.be/pxplMEtKiXM

"This is the second time a US President has waded in on UK affairs..."

Notice how Pelosi champions the same side of Brexit as our own EU cheerleaders.

epaulo13 epaulo13's picture

NDPP wrote:

Neither does your support for the neoliberal EU against the British working class majority vote to be out of it.

"In the main, the content and outcomes of EU neoliberal policies have been similar in all the member states. Faced with EU hostility, therefore, the popular left should reject the single market and its institutional and legal framework..."

http://www.cadtm.org/Manifesto-for-a-new-popular-internationalism-in-Europe

..that's the piece i posted in #41. and your trying to pass this document off as support for the current tory brexit when there is no relationship between the two. nor is there a relationship between the brexit vote and the tory brexit.

NDPP

I think you need to review some of my postings including those of Costas Lapavitsas and stop your erroneous nonsense about my support for a 'Tory Brexit'. Lapavitsas is one of the advocates of a clean, full Brexit and a contributor to the Manifesto above.

'To defeat the far right the left must embrace a socialist and internationalist Brexit. The EU enshrines Thatcherism in one continent. The belief it can be reformed from within is deluded.'

https://twitter.com/tfbrexit/status/1113774784553287681

Lapavitsas Full Interview

https://youtu.be/n8lBJCmTiuU

"The left has the most peculiar views about the EU..."

 

NDPP

Support For Nigel Farage is the UK Voters' Way of Demanding Brexit

https://youtu.be/969AdhfoHXk

"The new Brexit Party, led by Nigel Farage, is on course to cause a political earthquake at next month's EU Parliament elections, with a new survey showing his anti-EU group ahead of both Labour and the Tories."

Sean in Ottawa

NDPP wrote:

Support For Nigel Farage is the UK Voters' Way of Demanding Brexit

https://youtu.be/969AdhfoHXk

"The new Brexit Party, led by Nigel Farage, is on course to cause a political earthquake at next month's EU Parliament elections, with a new survey showing his anti-EU group ahead of both Labour and the Tories."

And what would it mean if a Brexit party gets the greatest level of support but Brexit parties get a minority of the support overall?

NDPP

"An establishment desperate to paint UK's decision to rejoin the 160-odd independent countries around the world as dangerous and politically deadly, are largely keeping the real, violent and deadly mass demonstrations in the EU (France) out of the news."

https://twitter.com/James7Holland/status/1119908589949394945

josh

In new UK election poll, the Brexit party is at 14% and both Labour and the Conservatives are under 30%.

https://mobile.twitter.com/EuropeElects/status/1120116367276032000

NDPP

George Galloway, TMOATS: April 19, 2019 (1900-2200-podcast)

https://talkradio.co.uk/radio/listen-again/1555696800

EU parliamentary elections, Labour, Brexit, Trump/Mueller, 'New IRA' murder, Haftar's Libya Julian Assange, and more! @03:30

bekayne

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

NDPP wrote:

Support For Nigel Farage is the UK Voters' Way of Demanding Brexit

https://youtu.be/969AdhfoHXk

"The new Brexit Party, led by Nigel Farage, is on course to cause a political earthquake at next month's EU Parliament elections, with a new survey showing his anti-EU group ahead of both Labour and the Tories."

And what would it mean if a Brexit party gets the greatest level of support but Brexit parties get a minority of the support overall?

Exact same thing happened in 2014

bekayne

NDPP wrote:

Support For Nigel Farage is the UK Voters' Way of Demanding Brexit

https://youtu.be/969AdhfoHXk

"The new Brexit Party, led by Nigel Farage, is on course to cause a political earthquake at next month's EU Parliament elections, with a new survey showing his anti-EU group ahead of both Labour and the Tories."

Deja vu

NDPP

Galloway: Why I'm Voting Brexit in the European Elections

https://on.rt.com/9sss

"I have spent a lifetime on the left, joining the Labour Party at 13 and spending nearly 30 years in parliament as a left-wing MP. And I'm voting for Nigel Farage's new Brexit Party. How come...?"

 

Sean in Ottawa

bekayne wrote:

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

NDPP wrote:

Support For Nigel Farage is the UK Voters' Way of Demanding Brexit

https://youtu.be/969AdhfoHXk

"The new Brexit Party, led by Nigel Farage, is on course to cause a political earthquake at next month's EU Parliament elections, with a new survey showing his anti-EU group ahead of both Labour and the Tories."

And what would it mean if a Brexit party gets the greatest level of support but Brexit parties get a minority of the support overall?

Exact same thing happened in 2014

What I am getting at is some people will try to confuse others about the difference between a plurality and a majority.

There is this desire by advocates to turn everything thing into an interpretation that their side is right. Truth is that votes like this will prove nothing at all. The reason is that there will be no clear majority on either side is that the vote options include parties that are split between pro and anti Brexit factions.

Brexit itself is not even a majority when you consider that its supporters cannot agree on what it means and that all interpretations together got a bare majority a couple years ago and supporters seem to want to avoid retesting that now.

If anyone wanted to truly respect the voters you would give them a ranked ballot choice of the options since none have majority approval - at this point. using a ranking system we could see what would constitute a majority, if any were actually interested in that.

Neither side have been interested in risking knowing what the people actually want right now using such a ranking. Instead they want to group people into anti-new deal; all forms of Brexit etc. The failure on the part of the British Parliament to move forward is due to a failure to actually want to consider what the people want and respect that whatever it is. Instead we have this unending interpretation and re-interpretation of what people really want without givening them a chance to say that. Even those calling for a re-vote want to limit the options so their preferred option wins.

 

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

NDPP wrote:

Galloway: Why I'm Voting Brexit in the European Elections

https://on.rt.com/9sss

"I have spent a lifetime on the left, joining the Labour Party at 13 and spending nearly 30 years in parliament as a left-wing MP. And I'm voting for Nigel Farage's new Brexit Party. How come...?"

 

Nothing socialist can come of Nigel's hate party winning that vote.  

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
The failure on the part of the British Parliament to move forward is due to a failure to actually want to consider what the people want and respect that whatever it is.

I would add to that that part of the problem is "the heart wants what the heart wants" -- rational and reasonable or not.

I've suggested in the past that lots of folk seem to be considering Brexit as though it were simply an internal UK thing, like choosing the national bird, but the rest of the EU is going to have plenty of say in what the final arrangements are.  Wanting a clean break, with a better deal than before, isn't a reasonable thing to want.

The vote was about the only thing that was fully in the control of the UK:  to stay or to leave.  Everything else is not something any UK government could promise.  In other words, the Mexicans may or may not pay for the wall.

josh

NDPP wrote:

Galloway: Why I'm Voting Brexit in the European Elections

https://on.rt.com/9sss

"I have spent a lifetime on the left, joining the Labour Party at 13 and spending nearly 30 years in parliament as a left-wing MP. And I'm voting for Nigel Farage's new Brexit Party. How come...?"

 

Just so long as he doesn’t support the Brexit party in the real election.

NDPP

Ken Burch wrote:

NDPP wrote:

Galloway: Why I'm Voting Brexit in the European Elections

https://on.rt.com/9sss

"I have spent a lifetime on the left, joining the Labour Party at 13 and spending nearly 30 years in parliament as a left-wing MP. And I'm voting for Nigel Farage's new Brexit Party. How come...?"

 

Nothing socialist can come of Nigel's hate party winning that vote.  

NDPP wrote:

Nor from your stupid characterization, EU neoliberal domination or UK Labour it appears...

Sean in Ottawa

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
The failure on the part of the British Parliament to move forward is due to a failure to actually want to consider what the people want and respect that whatever it is.

I would add to that that part of the problem is "the heart wants what the heart wants" -- rational and reasonable or not.

I've suggested in the past that lots of folk seem to be considering Brexit as though it were simply an internal UK thing, like choosing the national bird, but the rest of the EU is going to have plenty of say in what the final arrangements are.  Wanting a clean break, with a better deal than before, isn't a reasonable thing to want.

The vote was about the only thing that was fully in the control of the UK:  to stay or to leave.  Everything else is not something any UK government could promise.  In other words, the Mexicans may or may not pay for the wall.

True but a preferential ballot could allow the government to get from the people what version they want. Then it would have a mandate to approach the EU. The EU is exasperated by the fact that negotiators on the side of the EU do not seem to have any detailed mandate where the details are essential.

We keep projecting here our preference (like everyone does) on the interpretations of polls and the referendum vote itself. We do know that no Brexit option has proven a majority in support since the referendum and we do not know what the second choices are. Those who are remain insist that the second choice to any Brexit option is remain. I think there is no proof of that. Brexiters insist that remain is not the second chocie for any version of Brexit but there is no proof of that and they are the loudest in insisting that there be no mechanism to find out.

I disagree with those who say back to the people is disrespect but I agree that a binary choice in a nonbinary reality is a deep insult, especially since parliament has proved that again and again.

If you set aside personal preferences in order to respect the people, ranking ballots can answer the questions definitively. I suspect that hard core remainers and hard core Brexiters might be unhappy but a majority may lie somewhat between them. But it does not matter -- if I am wrong, there is a test to find that out.

The scandal is the deadlock combined with the refusal to resolve it lest the answer not be what the politicians want most.

NorthReport

May appears to be wasting everyone's time.

Labour says Theresa May unwilling to offer key Brexit concessions

Little progress as talks resume, with Labour seeking changes to political declaration

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/23/labour-says-theresa-may-unwilling-to-offer-key-brexit-concessions

NorthReport

Idiots

Senior Conservatives to vote on ousting Theresa May

Some 1922 Committee members want to change rules to allow second no-confidence vote

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/23/may-should-go-today-says-senior-1922-committee-member-nigel-evans

NDPP

'Dear Remain MPs and Voters, the EU is About Politics Not Trade'

https://facts4eu.org/news/2019_apr_eu_is_about_politics

"Is the EU a trading bloc or a political project?"

josh
NDPP

WATCH: Claire Fox on Leave.EU

https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1121010021557592067

"Her decision to stand for the Brexit Party UK n the European Parliament elections. 'I met so many voters saying I'll never vote again,' that I felt it was about time someone on the left stepped up and said 'I stand with you."

 

Claire Fox Explains Her Reasons For Standing As A European Election Candidate for the Brexit Party

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6952797/CLAIRE-FOX-explains-rea...

"Whether you stand on the Left or Right, we all owe it to these Peterloo Martyrs - to seize this once-in-a-lifetime moment and protect our hard fight for franchise from the new foes it faces."

nicky

Labour is at a crucial crossroads on Tuesday when it’s executive is to vote on whether to support a confirmatory referendum.

as always Corbyn continues to vascilate. This time he may have run out of time to take a firm position.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/apr/28/labour-activists-threaten-european-election-campaign-boycott-second-referendum

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

From slashdot: A Bitter Turf War is Raging on the Brexit Wikipedia Page

slashdot wrote:
Wikipedia editors are battling to tell the story of Brexit as it happens. And on such a hotly-debated page, every edit is controversial and suspicions run wild. From a report: Editors are parrying death threats, doxxing attempts and accusations of bias, as the crowdsourced epic has become the centre of a relentless tug-of-war over who gets to write the history of the UK as it happens. Originally posted in January 2014, what began life as "Proposed referendum on United Kingdom membership of the European Union" has bloated into a 11,757-word behemoth. But the article's vast size is the least of its problems. In private, and on discussion pages, editors tell tales of turf wars, sock puppet accounts, and anonymous figures hellbent on stuffing the article with information that supports their point of view.

"I was heavily involved with the Brexit page, but gave up more than a year ago because the level of bias on it proved impossible to address and the aggravation of trying to deal with that was not worthwhile," says EddieHugh, a Wikipedia editor who has made 186 edits on the Brexit page -- making them one of its most prolific contributors. Since leaving the page behind, EddieHugh now specialises in editing entries about obscure mid-century jazz musicians. For the dedicated cabal of Wikipedians who are still editing the page, the battle against bias is never-ending. [...] One sentence Snoogans added to the page's opening paragraphs is particularly divisive. Early on the article refers to a "broad consensus" among economists that Brexit will damage the UK economy. Soon after he added the sentence, other editors tried to remove the edit, arguing that economists aren't reliable enough to be included in Wikipedia articles. Wikipedia's rules don't contain specific guidelines about economists, but recommend that "academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs and textbooks" should be used as sources where possible.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Makes me think of this, which I heard of for the first time just the other day:  The Iraq War: A Historiography of Wikipedia Changelogs

It's a bound, 12-volume collection of all 12,000 or so edits made to the Wikipedia page for the war in Iraq.

NDPP

Wikipedia Founder Appointed to Judge Truthworthiness of News...

https://on.rt.com/9t3f

"Even neoliberal thought police have a sense of humor."

 

https://wikipedia.fivefilters.org

No surprise to find it being used by  various sides of the Brexit question either.

 

NorthReport

 

Huawei sure gets around, eh! But then again so does the good ole USA

May just bounces from one crisis to another almost on an hourly basis and yet Labour sits in the opposition benches as their Leadership appears to be useless as well 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/gavin-williamson-leak-huawei-crime-theresa-may-reaction-sacked-a8895636.html

NorthReport
NorthReport
Sean in Ottawa

It is sad that so many try to show the fact that Brexit is eating the Conservatives lunch is anything more than a realignment mostly coming from the Conservatives rather than a party taking equally from all parties. It is also sad that people are suggesting that it is some considerable movement towards Brexit. The truth is less interesting:

Ukip grew to just under a third support and then was eaten by the Conservatives as they tilted towards Brexit. As they screwed it up and divided, the Brexit party was formed where the same proportion has trecked to.

So in sum: in the UK there has been about 1/3 right wing Euro-skeptics in a political movement which went from UKIP to the Conservatives to Brexit Party without really changing in size all that much. Each time it has created the illusion of a trend regarding Brexit that never existed.

In the Labour party there is also a Euro-skeptic faction although it is much smaller. The leader is in this faction. The party has not split as it has not actually had to make difficult decisions on the file itself other than criticize. The Labour's Euro-skeptics once in a while align with others but their purpose is very different from the right wing and there is difficult uniting Labour Euro-skeptics with right wing ones as they are driven largely by different motivations. This is one of the many Brexit divisions that come up once you move from a vague quesiton to a specific proposal.

In the middle there was a referendum where support peaked after a controversial campaign although this extremely narrow majority included all motivations for Brexit, right and left; those who may have wanted serious reform rather than an absolute break; those who supported all forms of Brexit. Getting them all in on one plan is almost hopeless not only becuase of differences in what people want to move to but the ideological differences in the motivations.

Labour, appears to be trying to leverage the lack of any majority in any direction to get either a Brexit result closer to its vision than the right wing, or perhaps some improvements to the EU and of course to survive without being destroyed by the debate. Labour already has suffered through Scottish nationalism since the SNP holds many seats that otherwise would support Labour over the Conservatives. Labour is also likely aware that it may have to align itself with the SNP in a minority.

In the meantime, the governance of Britain is happening without much discussion and people are hurting. Even without Brexit questions, the Labour party would have a huge task on its hands to fix what is wrong with the UKs social policy.

Of course the global economy, along with the UK economy is not only facing serious challenges but uncertainty that might be unprecidented.

And into the mix is that Northern Ireland cannot even produce a government.

Of course in with the crisis in social sustainability that exists in the UK is the realization that the global environment is in crisis adding to concerns about refugees and the economy as well as existential concern about the survival of life on earth.

Labour is in a difficult position although it has significant opportunities and the Conservatives are in a worse position.

As for the leadership of the Labour Party, it appears to be in better condition than one would think when you see that the party has not split to any great degree and has not lost significant popularity ocnsidering the many challenges facing the UK that are not split on normal ideological lines which would serve to unite the parties.

It is frustrating to see how much spin is being put on all sides to this recent history. All I have said is true and known but seldom set out in a single place. We can only hope that the Labour Party will have better answers than the Conservatives, although the question, given the seriousness, is how much better they can be.

 

NDPP

Your EU Vote Is Crucial Because It Won't Count (2016)

https://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2016-06-23/your-eu-vote-is-crucial-be...

"Unlike the MPs campaigning for remain today, politicians like Benn understood that the lack of democracy at the heart of the EU was not an oversight on the part of its founders, but an essential component of a project which sought to supplant national governments with a supranational authority...In short, the EU cannot be reformed by Britain staying in because the union's very structures are designed to accrete power for the few without accountability to the many."

 

3 Reasons #LE2019 Results Did Not Show Remain Dominant

https://skwawkbox.org/2019/05/04/3-reasons-le2019-results-did-not-show-r...

"Mainstream' media presents local election results as as confirmation UK has swung to remain/new referendum. There are several compelling reasons they do not..."

NDPP

Galloway: Labour and Conservative parties obstruct Brexit process

https://youtu.be/x-DbBa4mAnI

After brief introductory segment on Gaza...

JKR

Brexit is the Conservative Party’s idea.

NorthReport

Correct!

NDPP

Peter Linebaugh: Peterloo

https://www.counterpunch.org/2019/05/08/peterloo/

"Peterloo is at the zenith of a cycle in the class war."

NDPP

Brexit Delayed - The Self-Paved Road Back to Serfdom

https://twitter.com/UKandEU/status/1126377532855549952

"...But this simplistic 'us/them' conception is much easier to grasp than the more complex reality that the EU is a  complex form of transnational multilevel governance through which the executive branches of member-states coordinate their policies and rule their populations. It is not an external entity but arises from, and further entrenches, the internal transformation of European states into member states.

This involves the redistribution of policy making from domestic legislatures into transnational governance structures - primarily the Commission and Council - insulated from direct democratic oversight which enable the locking in of neoliberal policy sets..."

 

NDPP

Brexit Pressure Rising: May Faces Mounting Pressure to Step Down as EU Election Looms

https://youtu.be/Atc-b7Kl40U

"Tensions inside the UK parliament intensifying as May tries to pass her fourth Brexit deal. George Galloway joins In Question to discuss."

JKR

JKR

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

I swore I wouldn't take any more political advice from buses when I got bamboozled by this one...

NorthReport
NorthReport

Magoo

Wasn’t Boris Johnson in court this week being accused of lying in relation to this bus advertisement. Just sayin’

Mr. Magoo wrote:

I swore I wouldn't take any more political advice from buses when I got bamboozled by this one...

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

JKR wrote:

Is that Matt Lucas playing Boris Johnson?

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Wasn’t Boris Johnson in court this week being accused of lying in relation to this bus advertisement. Just sayin’

Yes.  Evidently some private citizen crowd-funded the money needed to fund a private prosecution of Johnson.  Don't get all excited yet, though; the court is currently only deciding whether or not it can take place.

josh

In the 1975 vote, Fleet Street, which was then pro-common market, scare mongered voters that if the UK didn’t stay in the common market, the British economy would collapse and people would go without food.  No call for a revote after that.  

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

josh wrote:

In the 1975 vote, Fleet Street, which was then pro-common market, scare mongered voters that if the UK didn’t stay in the common market, the British economy would collapse and people would go without food.  No call for a revote after that.  

Of course not, the people were smart enough to vote the right way the first time back then.

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