The United States of Atrocity

468 posts / 0 new
Last post
ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Catchfire wrote:
This might be my favourite thread ever, but I have a short memory.

You have good company.

 

Gore Vidal (1925-2012): "We live in the United States of Forget. Nobody remembers anything."

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Henry Giroux on the Racist Killing Fields in the U.S.: The Death of Sandra Bland

Henry Giroux wrote:
Bland’s death over a routine traffic stop is beyond monstrous. It is indicative of a country where extreme violence is the norm - a society fed by the legacy of slavery, Jim Crow, the incarceration state, the drug wars and the increasing militarization of everything, including the war on Black youth....This is the new totalitarianism of the boot-in-your-face racism, one in which the punishing state is the central institution for both controlling poor people of color and enforcing the rules of the financial elite. How much longer can this war on youth go on?

The United States has become a country that is proud of what is should be ashamed of.  How else to explain the popularity of the racist and bigot, Donald Trump, among the Republican Party’s right-wing base? We celebrate violence in the name of security and violate every precept of human justice through an appeal to fear. This speaks clearly to a form of political repression and a toxic value system. Markets and power are immune to justice, and despise it.... How many more names of Black men, women and young people will join the list of those whose deaths have sparked widespread protests: Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, Freddie Gray, Renisha McBride, Aiyana Jones and Sakia Gunn, among many others - and now, Sandra Bland....

State violence fueled by the merging of the war on terror, the militarization of all aspects of society, and a deep-seated, ruthless and unapologetic racism is now ubiquitous and should be labeled as a form of domestic terrorism. Terrorism, torture and state violence are no longer simply part of our history; they have become the nervous system of an increasingly authoritarian state. Eric Garner told the police as he was being choked to death that he could not breathe. His words also apply to democracy itself, which is lacking the civic oxygen that gives it life. The United States is a place where democracy cannot breathe....

Ending police misconduct is certainly acceptable as short-term goal to save lives, but if we are going to prevent the United States from becoming a full-fledged police state serving the interests of the rich who ensconce themselves in their gated and guarded communities, the vicious neoliberal financial and police state has to be dismantled....

A new brutalism haunts America, drenched in the flood of intolerable police and state violence. Millions of people are being locked up, jailed, beaten, harassed and violated by the police and other security forces, simply because they are Black, Brown, young and/or poor, and therefore viewed as disposable. Black youth are safe neither in their own neighborhoods nor on public streets, highways, schools - or any other areas in which the police can be found.

"The United States has become a country that is proud of what is should be ashamed of." It is a festering sore on the body of Planet Earth. 

 

 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Quote:
I write you in your 15th year. I am writing you because this was the year you saw Eric Garner choked to death for selling cigarettes; because you know now that Renisha McBride was shot for seeking help, that John Crawford was shot down for browsing in a department store. And you have seen men in uniform drive by and murder Tamir Rice, a 12-year-old child whom they were oath-bound to protect. And you know now, if you did not before, that the police departments of your country have been endowed with the authority to destroy your body.

 

Letter to My Son

alan smithee alan smithee's picture
swallow swallow's picture

Don't we already have a thread on Sandra Bland? Or is it too russophobic to post in? 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

swallow wrote:
Don't we already have a thread on Sandra Bland? Or is it too russophobic to post in?

yeah, we do. This is the "America, why are you so fucked up? " thread,  in the spirit of Neil Young, who once sang a song about a state in the Union with a wheel in the track and a wheel in the ditch.

Now the whole union is in the ditch.

ooh rah.

NDPP

US To China: 'Infrastructure Bank This!'

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-03-23/us-china-infrastructure-bank

"US test fires ICBM as a 'visual to the world.'

The evil empire is quite simply insane, dying and doubly dangerous as a result of its impending demise.

lagatta

Don't be silly, swallow; you know there is no racism or racist violence in Russia or anywhere else in the former Soviet Union, except in fascist Ukraine, of course.

6079_Smith_W

ikosmos wrote:

yeah, we do. This is the "America, why are you so fucked up? " thread,  in the spirit of Neil Young, who once sang a song about a state in the Union with a wheel in the track and a wheel in the ditch.

Interesting you should pick that one, since Young was rightly called out for the arrogance and hypocrisy in that song.

He in fact said (in Waging Heavy Peace) that  Alabama was not thought out,  condescending, and that he does not like the  words he used.

Quote:

My favorite moment (of many) is Mr. Young's entire statement on the endlessly rehearsed brouhaha concerning his classic songs "Southern Man" and "Alabama," bitter condemnations of Southern racism, to which Lynyrd Skynrd responded with "Sweet Home Alabama," which called him out by name. "My own song 'Alabama' richly deserved the shot Lynyrd Skynyrd gave me with their great record," Mr. Young now concludes. "I don't like my words when I listen to it today. They are accusatory and condescending, not fully thought out, too easy to misconstrue."

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444032404578010573491770456

Or maybe that is another WSJ fabrication.

 

lagatta

Indeed. I'd never play down racism and racist violence in the US, but it simply isn't the only place such atrocities happen.

Unionist

So, reading the attacks on this thread, and on ikosmos for opening it, you what I'm reminded of?

"Demonizing, delegitimizing, and using double standards about Israel."

"What about all those other horrendous countries? Nothing to say about them? Why just Israel????"

Disgraceful.

 

 

voice of the damned

Unionist wrote:

So, reading the attacks on this thread, and on ikosmos for opening it, you what I'm reminded of?

"Demonizing, delegitimizing, and using double standards about Israel."

"What about all those other horrendous countries? Nothing to say about them? Why just Israel????"

Disgraceful.

 

 

Didn't you once criticize a thread about anti-Muslim bigotry in Quebec, for focussing solely on Quebec and not addressing anti-Muslim bigotry in other provinces? I'm pretty sure I remember that, and that someone replied to you(not that I neccessarlily agreed with it, but just as a way of identifying the thread): "Yeah, well I guess we hear more about anti-Muslim bigotry in Quebec for the same reason we hear more about homophobia in southern Alberta."

And even if I've got my recollections wrong, WOULD you really consider a thread called(let's say) "QuebeKKK, what a shithole", devoted to whatever negative articles about Quebec could be found in the media, to be a serious attempt at encouraging discussion about the problems in Quebec society?

NDPP

 

And I am reminded of why Canada is the way it is...

"No one that has ever lived ever thought so crooked as we." - SB: 'Endgame'

voice of the damned

ikosmos wrote:

swallow wrote:
Don't we already have a thread on Sandra Bland? Or is it too russophobic to post in?

yeah, we do. This is the "America, why are you so fucked up? " thread,  in the spirit of Neil Young, who once sang a song about a state in the Union with a wheel in the track and a wheel in the ditch.

Now the whole union is in the ditch.

ooh rah.

Yeah. And Steve Earle wrote a song about the fucked-up state of justice in Ontario.

And further on that score, I'm kinda wondering. If someone who thought Ontario was really fucked-up started a thread dedicated to posting any and all articles showing Ontario in a negative light(everything from racist cops in Toronto to homophobic Catholic schools to Rob Ford's latest drug-addled follies) and justifieed it by saying "Ontario is a festering sore upon Confederation", and accused anyone who disagreed with the thread of being a supporter of the worst aspects of Ontario culture and politics(eg. "I'm sure the racist cops in T.O. agree with a lot of the posters here!!"), how long would it take before the collective babble community said "Okay, this is obviously just an attempt at flame-warring", and the thread was either flooded with recipes, closed by the mods, or abandoned to ignoble obcurity?

6079_Smith_W

Who has attacked this thread or ikosmos? We aren't allowed to question or disagree unless is a designated enemy?

I just happen to think the best example here of bad American culture is the whole ideological, demonizing, and exploitative tone. Who cares about actually dealing with these issues when they are such great fodder for showing how bad those Americans are.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:

So, reading the attacks on this thread, and on ikosmos for opening it, you what I'm reminded of?

"Demonizing, delegitimizing, and using double standards about Israel."

"What about all those other horrendous countries? Nothing to say about them? Why just Israel????"

Disgraceful.

What are you reminded of when you read his other threads... the ones about "Russophobia" and how hard done by Russia is?

I'm reminded of the stirring defense that "criticism of Israel is antisemitism".

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Hey, FWIW, I thought, in summarizing Henry Giroux's article by noting that the USA is a festering sore on the body of Planet Earth, that I was simply saving those who didn't read the article, or even my highlighted summary,  the necessity of having to do so.

OK, so yeah, my language is somewhat colourful (or is that colorful? bwa ha ha!) but a "festering sore" sounds way better than the "wimpy" terminology used by Giroux such as: "a country where extreme violence is the norm"; "the new totalitarianism of the boot-in-your-face racism"; "a country that is proud of what is should be ashamed of"; " a place where democracy, like Eric Garner,  cannot breathe"; "an [incipient] full-fledged police state"; haunted by "a new brutalism" and  "drenched in the flood of intolerable police and state violence".

I should have written "a pus-filled festering sore" to give a really complete picture.

Sorry about that.Wink

swallow swallow's picture

Are you being serious with that post, Unionist? I thought you were the sworn enemy of thread proliferation and duplication. Do you really want threads such as "Sandra Bland" replaced with big catch-all threads like "the United States of Atrocity"? No problem if you do, but I am astonished given your longtime consistency. 

I'm also curious who, specifically, you think is attacking ikosmos. Let's be specific. Surely it's not "some babblers"? 

I hope you don't feel attacked by this post, it's intendsimply ed to ask you questions. 

lagatta

It took me one click to find a tonne of threads about racism and racist violence (including neo-Nazis, who aren't all in the Ukraine) in Russia and othe parts of the fomer Soviet Union. I didn't post them as I thought they might be whataboutery; deflecting from the current crisis in police violence against racialised people (the current wave seems to be essentially targeting "old stock" African-Americans, though there have been many cases involving other Black and Brown people). A friend of mine got very serious threats from Russian neo-Nazis when there - I can't be more specific to protect his privacy.

I really don't think the average Canadian is Russophobic. Russians are normal people who love hockey and shovel snow - as are "Ukes". I think there is far more bigotry here against Slavs from the Balkans.

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

lagatta wrote:

Indeed. I'd never play down racism and racist violence in the US, but it simply isn't the only place such atrocities happen.

Russia nor any other country is the elephant we live beside. Canada is entwined with the US of A no matter what party we vote for. I objectively think that given the highest incarceration rates in the world and the largest spending on military, prisons and the security state it is hard to find a worse threat to the world. As well it is wired into my Canadian DNA to be vigilent against the ongoing Manifest Destiny exhibted by the New England oligarchy.  I come from a long line of settlers who have never wanted to be controlled by the Beast to the South. Russia is not threat to me but the creeping Amerikan style police state in my country is a real and present danger to to my freedom and the freedom of many of my friends who are willing to stand up to the corporate agenda..

I don't give a flying fuck what Putin does because he is not trying to control my country unlike the Evil Corporate Empire that seeeks to control all decisions on all resource extraction. I attack America because the MSM haredly does. I don't need to attack Russia or China or Iran or Syria or North Korea because the MSM has a constant 24 hour a day feed doing exactly that. IMO No one who cares about the planet and peoples needs and wants to speak truth to power can give America anything except a dismal failing grade.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
I don't need to attack Russia or China or Iran or Syria or North Korea because the MSM has a constant 24 hour a day feed doing exactly that.

Are you saying that you agree with them, in principle at least, when they do?

In other words, are you saying that you don't need to join your voice with theirs because they're already doing a fine job?

Or do you basically disagree with them, and THAT'S why you don't need to criticize those other countries?

lagatta

You won't get any argument from me about that. In Québec, we are oppressed both by the Canadian federal state and by US imperialism. The Russian oligarchy doesn't affect us directly: it does target our gay and lesbian comrades, and dissident writers and artists.

I'm just bloody sick of the Putinist agenda stuff - which is NOT progressive: it is homophobic and aggressively militaristic, as well as against free speech (yes of course, so is the US) and it constantly spams leftwing forums.

I've never counted on the MSM, not even its most progressive incarnations such as the Guardian. But I'm horrified in the recent change in sites such as Counterpunch, including their masthead.

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

Yeah,I have to agree.

It disturbs me that we are attached to the planet's cancerous tumor. It makes me very uncomfortable. Cancer has a way of spreading and Canada is very vulnerable.

I'd feel much better with an ocean dividing me from Amerikkka.

But as evil and repulsive the US may be,there's a bigger cancer in the Middle East and is ground zero for almost every conflict happening in the world today.

I can only hope that these cancers are curable. But the andicdote may not be pleasant. 

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Well I'm sure we're going to stop them by calling them bad names and telling horror stories to reassure ourselves of how much better we are.

They're a cancer and an infected boil. Really?

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Manifest Destiny exhibted by the New England oligarchy.

Actually, that was mostly pushed by the Virginia and southern Bloc. They do actually have a history.

They are a cancer.And Canada is infected. We've had a poisonous government for 9 years. A government that wants to be the world's new infected boil.

6079_Smith_W

Well I'm sure we're going to stop them by calling them bad names and telling horror stories to reassure ourselves of how much better we are.

They're a cancer and an infected boil. Really?

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Manifest Destiny exhibted by the New England oligarchy.

Actually, that was mostly pushed by Virginia - the undisputed power during their first 50 years -  and the southern Bloc. They do actually have a history.

6079_Smith_W

I think Canadians elected that government all on our own, alan. Suggesting they drifted in by metastasis is not only ridiculous, it is kind of shirking our own responsibility, and does nothing to actually deal with the situation.

As for comparing people and cultures to diseases and infections, that is the sort of talk I expect to see on Stormfront or some other hate site.

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Actually, that was mostly pushed by the Virginia and southern Bloc.

I was not freezing my point in one moment of time. Manifest destiny has been a real part of the American ethos since at least the decade before the invasion and conquest of Mexico. I believe that the New England oligarchy is currently ruling America and has on and off for most of its history.

But thanks once again for a completely arcane point that to me has little relevance to my post.

6079_Smith_W

kropotkin1951 wrote:

But thanks once again for a completely arcane point that to me has little relevance to my post.

Sorry to interject a note of things which actually happened.

Please, carry on with the treatise on the disease model of politics and culture, and the Grand Guignol news feed. It's a bit of a relief to know we don't have to think, but only see flags and passports and know how to react. We have come a long way in the past 100 years.

 

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

I think Canadians elected that government all on our own, alan. Suggesting they drifted in by metastasis is not only ridiculous, it is kind of shirking our own responsibility, and does nothing to actually deal with the situation.

As for comparing people and cultures to diseases and infections, that is the sort of talk I expect to see on Stormfront or some other hate site.

 

Canadians are responsible for Harper,no doubt. But notice that under the Harpercons,Canadian politics these days mirror the extremist Tea Party movement from the States and that's the cancer I'm talking about.

The US is a very sick society.

I remember reading a quote years ago which I found interesting. That schizophrenia and crime are the only sane responses to a sick society. Amerikkka is rife with sickness and crime but what else could one expect from a society that fetishizes violence and war?

It's not hate speech,it's the truth.

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Please, carry on with the treatise on the disease model of politics and culture

If politics and culture are a "disease" then who are the anti-vaxxers? 

6079_Smith_W

And why cancer and zits? Why not syphilis? At least then we could enjoy ourselves while catching the big bad American disease.

Maybe that wouldn't be Canadian.

 

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
And why cancer and zits? Why not syphilis?

Fair question.  At least syphillis is contagious.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Sorry to interject a note of things which actually happened.

Please, carry on with the treatise on the disease model of politics and culture, and the Grand Guignol news feed. It's a bit of a relief to know we don't have to think, but only see flags and passports and know how to react. We have come a long way in the past 100 years.

Your dismissive post is classic. Thanks again for proving you seldom actually discuss anything but merely sling fecess and hope it sticks to other posters.

6079_Smith_W

Gee. I expected at least you'd focus on my reference to Stormfront, which is closer to how I really feel about this kind of brainless demonizing. I was actually poking fun with the comment you cited.

But never mind. Tell me more about what you have inherited through your Canadian DNA. I thought the days of social darwinism, disease-speading cultures and other pseudoscientific nonsense was done with, but I guess the world is one big petri dish, and this is biology class.

Still mulling over that anti-vaxxer question. Maybe its The Donald, just because he's that nuts:

(the crevices in his face really show off that spray tan, eh?)

 

NDPP

 

No shortage of Yanqui fascisti (or their fans and supporters, alas)

Wes Clarke Calls For Internment Camps For 'Radicalised Americans' (and vid)

http://off-guardian.org/2015/07/26/wes-clarke-calls-for-internment-camps...

Retired general and former Democratic presidential candidate Wesley Clarke on Friday called for WWII-style internment camps to be revived for 'disloyal Americans'.

He called for a revival of internment camps to help combat Muslim extremism, saying, 'If these people are radicalized and they don't support the United States and they are disloyal to the United States as a matter of principle, fine. It's their right and it's our right to and obligation to segregate them from the normal community for the duration of the conflict..."

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

lagatta wrote:

Indeed. I'd never play down racism and racist violence in the US, but it simply isn't the only place such atrocities happen.

Russia nor any other country is the elephant we live beside. Canada is entwined with the US of A no matter what party we vote for. I objectively think that given the highest incarceration rates in the world and the largest spending on military, prisons and the security state it is hard to find a worse threat to the world. As well it is wired into my Canadian DNA to be vigilent against the ongoing Manifest Destiny exhibted by the New England oligarchy.  I come from a long line of settlers who have never wanted to be controlled by the Beast to the South. Russia is not threat to me but the creeping Amerikan style police state in my country is a real and present danger to to my freedom and the freedom of many of my friends who are willing to stand up to the corporate agenda..

The great boxer and and anti-imperialist champion, Muhammed Ali, once remarked that "No Vietnamese ever called me nigger". This is the right attitude; we know who institute the policies that hurt us and it is at them and their institutions that we ought to focus our fury and might.

Kropotkin wrote:
I don't give a flying fuck what Putin does because he is not trying to control my country unlike the Evil Corporate Empire that seeeks to control all decisions on all resource extraction. I attack America because the MSM haredly does. I don't need to attack Russia or China or Iran or Syria or North Korea because the MSM has a constant 24 hour a day feed doing exactly that. IMO No one who cares about the planet and peoples needs and wants to speak truth to power can give America anything except a dismal failing grade.

In relation to foreign policy I actually think that there is still some residual Soviet style thinking in their foreign policy establishment which is actually to their credit. FM Lavrov, for example, is really quite brilliant and reminds me of some of the sharp minds that Gorbachev surrounded himself with. You can see the whole foreign policy and related military doctrines of the Russians and there really is no comparison to the Americans. The latter has a military that is, by and large, focussed on raping and murdering small, defenceless countries, robbing them of their wealth, and turning their population into refugees. Compare that to Russia - say in relation to Georgia (2008) or Ukraine today - and these really are completely separate universes. The whole relationship is one in which one party utters continual threats of horrific violence and the other is, for the most part, the sensible one. Russia is doing a good enough job, internationally, representing the more enlightened view of the future in a multipolar world. The United States foreign policy establishment, or at least its dominant voices, represents the views of a declining hegemon, lashing out on occassion, but knowing that its days of unchallenged dominance are coming to an end. I have a thread on the unipolar vs the multipolar world, and I encourage others to contribute. To me this is the future of the world, if not US led oblivion.

Domestically, Putin is carryng out the same austerity in many ways that the Western neo-liberals are carrying out here. They do have a larger state sector, and understand the necessity of self-sufficiency in the face of a bellicose West, but it's easy enough to find those similarities: health care "reform" which amounts to cuts in services, underfunding of scientific institutions, etc. What's interesting on this point is to read articles, hostile to Putin but sympathetic to the neo-liberal agenda here, where they as much as admit that a capitalist Russia can't afford the health care, or scientific institutions that country once had under socialism. And such remarks are written in an obvious gloating sort of way. The Russian left [not the liberals who seem to hate their own country] must be furious with all these Western attacks on Putin which is effectively undermining their chances of success.

But that's just my opinion. Cheers.

 

voice of the damned

Kropotkin wrote:

"I come from a long line of settlers who have never wanted to be controlled by the Beast to the South."

Yes, how dare the Americans try to take away the land that God gave to your settler ancestors!

lagatta

Once again, the insinuation that people who don't subscribe to a "campist" view of history and geopolitics are somehow sops for US imperialism, or ludicrously, racist violence in that country. Of course no Vietnamese ever called Muhammad Ali "Nigger", and his declaration was a sterling example of anti-imperialism and solidarity among the wretched of the earth. But in terms of Ali, the US was not the only Western power involved in slavery or the slave trade, and cities such as Liverpool and Nantes have been recognizing this ugly facet of their history. And in terms of the Vietnamese, we remember that the US was taking over the "white man's burden" from France, too-heavily invested in suppressing the liberation movement in nearby Algeria.

6079_Smith_W

Hey, you're all in good company. Rex Murphy thinks they are the devil too, with their progressive dogmas, "rape culture", gun control, workplace standards and dumping on poor business owners for not baking a cake.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/rex-murphy-dont-blame-trump-bl...

Ever thought this might actually be a Canadian disease?

voice of the damned

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Hey, you're all in good company. Rex Murphy thinks they are the devil too, with their progressive dogmas, "rape culture", gun control, workplace standards and dumping on poor business owners for not baking a cake.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/rex-murphy-dont-blame-trump-bl...

Ever thought this might actually be a Canadian disease?

Yeah, right-wing anti-Amercianism is a thing as well, though more promient in the past than it is now.

George Grant has a passage in Lament For A Nation where he says that, with all this liberal individualism coming up into Canada from the US, it will soon be considered acceptable for men to sleep with men, and then sleeping with dogs will be right around the corner.

In fairness to Grant's prognostic abilities, he was writing in 1965, when Illinois had already repealed its "sodomy" laws three years earlier, and Canada had yet to do so.

voice of the damned

6079_Smith_W wrote:

voice of the damned wrote:

Yeah, right-wing anti-Amercianism is a thing as well, though more promient in the past then it is now.

Maybe not.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/13/jade-helm-texas-monitor-m...

Quote:

For senior Texas politicians, it is enough of a concern that they demanded it be monitored by state armed forces. And for a great many citizens, it is at best a secretive and dubious show of military might and at worst, the prelude to martial law, Barack Obama confiscating their guns and locking innocent Americans in internment camps.

My guess is that most of the people who want the evil empire to fall are on the right, and live in the heart of it. Actually if there is indeed an "American disease", that anti-government strain has been part of it from the beginning. Thing is, when the first of them - Jefferson - became president he was far worse than any of the people he was accusing of "monarchism".

 

Yeah, that Jade Helm panis is a riot. Interestingly, though, those paranoics represent an opposite type of conservativism from that championed by George Grant and other Red Tories, ie. anti-centralist individualism. Though, contrary to their professed individualism, they would likely have agreed with Grant on homosexuality.

As for Jefferson, if you haven't seen it already, you might find this old article by Conor Cruise O'Brien of interest...

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1996/10/thomas-jefferson-rad...

O'Brien lacerates Jefferson from both sides of the ideological divide, accusing him of being both a white-supremacist AND a left-wing radical in the French Revolutionary tradition. Granted, there actually is a pretty solid basis for both attacks, moreso the former.

6079_Smith_W

voice of the damned wrote:

Yeah, right-wing anti-Amercianism is a thing as well, though more promient in the past then it is now.

Maybe not.

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/jul/13/jade-helm-texas-monitor-m...

Quote:

For senior Texas politicians, it is enough of a concern that they demanded it be monitored by state armed forces. And for a great many citizens, it is at best a secretive and dubious show of military might and at worst, the prelude to martial law, Barack Obama confiscating their guns and locking innocent Americans in internment camps.

My guess is that most of the people who want the evil empire to fall are on the right, and live in the heart of it. Actually if there is indeed an "American disease", that anti-government strain has been part of it from the beginning. Thing is, when the first of them - Jefferson - became president he was far worse than any of the people he was accusing of "monarchism".

 

alan smithee alan smithee's picture

The definition of a 'left wing radical' in 2015 is a centrist that leans slightly to the right.

Case in point,Barack Obama.

6079_Smith_W

Haven't seen it. I will read it.

He fancied himself a left-wing radical, but considering he was a wealthy slave owner who pushed the agenda of the most powerful bloc in the country that is kind of thin gruel. The only freedom he wanted was for wealthy people like himself to do whatever they wanted. Add to that the fact he was vindictive, a liar, a coward and a hypocrite.

I have never understood why they consider him one of their greatest presidents.

voice of the damned

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Haven't seen it. I will read it.

He fancied himself a left-wing radical, but considering he was a wealthy slave owner who pushed the agenda of the most powerful bloc in the country that is kind of thin gruel. The only freedom he wanted was for wealthy people like himself to do whatever they wanted. Add to that the fact he was vindictive, a liar, a coward and a hypocrite.

I have never understood why they consider him one of their greatest presidents.

I think you're basically on the same page as O'Brien, though O'Brien takes Jefferson's radialism a bit more seriously(and hates it).

In fairness to Americans, when Canadian progressives march around during Catholic-school debates chanting "Two Four Six Eight Separate The Church And State!!", they are quoting the private letters of Thomas Jefferson. So, if he's good enough to be quoted by Canadian liberals, I guess he should be good enough for the American Two-Dollar Bill.

6079_Smith_W

Good article.

One could add Jefferson's exploitation of the XYZ affair - John Adams's difficult (and successful) efforts to avoid war with France. Yet another example of how Jefferson put his ideology above the security of the people.

A bit of a tangent, but one thing that article misses is that even Lincoln thought it would be impossible for freed slaves to remain in America. He may have changed his mind had he lived, but at the time the most likely course he saw was - like Jefferson-  deportation.

voice of the damned

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Good article.

One could add Jefferson's exploitation of the XYZ affair - John Adams's difficult (and successful) efforts to avoid war with France. Yet another example of how Jefferson put his ideology above the security of the people.

A bit of a tangent, but one thing that article misses is that even Lincoln thought it would be impossible for freed slaves to remain in America. He may have changed his mind had he lived, but at the time the most likely course he saw was - like Jefferson-  deportation.

Yes, among whites-who-mattered, I think only the Radical Republicans had anything approaching an egalitarian vision for race-relations.

Well, and John Brown, but he obviously didn't get very far with his plans.

NDPP

"...We must stop asking, 'What happened to America?' 'What happened to Canada?

Nothing has happened to America or Canada.

This is what America and Canada do.

This is what civilization does.

It must be stopped."

From Unist'ot'en Camp to Mauna Kea: This is What Civilization Does  - by Will Falk

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/07/24/from-unistoten-camp-to-mauna-kea-...

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

voice of the damned wrote:

Kropotkin wrote:

"I come from a long line of settlers who have never wanted to be controlled by the Beast to the South."

Yes, how dare the Americans try to take away the land that God gave to your settler ancestors!

Thats what one gets for trying to be respectful and admit that I am a settler in Canada. My ancestors only arrived 380 years ago and lived in harmony with the Mi'kmaq who granted them permission to be there. The imperial French and British decided to fight over our joint territory and the Mi'kmaq signed a treaaty with the BRitish victors and my ancestors got ethnically cleansed at the behest of the Governor of Mass.  The same guy who a decade earlier had put a bounty on scalps of FN men women and children.

quizzical

kropotkin1951 wrote:
voice of the damned wrote:
Kropotkin wrote:"I come from a long line of settlers who have never wanted to be controlled by the Beast to the South."

Yes, how dare the Americans try to take away the land that God gave to your settler ancestors!

Thats what one gets for trying to be respectful and admit that I am a settler in Canada. My ancestors only arrived 380 years ago and lived in harmony with the Mi'kmaq who granted them permission to be there. The imperial French and British decided to fight over our joint territory and the Mi'kmaq signed a treaaty with the BRitish victors and my ancestors got ethnically cleansed at the behest of the Governor of Mass.  The same guy who a decade earlier had put a bounty on scalps of FN men women and children.

being Mi'kmaq on my dad's side and on my mom's side being here about 300+ years too, so i hear you and feel both like a settler and indigenous. its confusing and disturbing.

my family on Cape Breton did not sign any treaty they out right own their land as it was deeded to them by the British crown. well to 11 families back in the day. it can't be sold and only passed down through the families.

Pages

Topic locked