War in Syria 3

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ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Yes, exactly. Anyone who now denies that the goal of the US regime has, is, and, AFAIK, will be the overthrow of the Syrian government, at any cost, is inhabiting a fantasy world. They've been unrelentingly consistent and there is overwhelming evidence to demonstrate this. 

Just think about that for a minute. The US regime, openly, aims at the overthrow of a duly elected, UN-recognized government and has been doing so since 2011 wrt Syria alone.

Now, back in Nuremburg, in the late 1940's or early 1950's, this same US regime presided over a War Crimes Tribunal which, pontificating with all the seriousness that it could muster (for a tribunal of the victors, that is) , claimed that starting a war was the most heinous of all crimes because it contained within itself all other crimes.

Strong words, which, for those of us who have read them, express the truth very well. And yet we have this same, barbarous US regime lecturing the rest of humanity on how to govern themselves, and, in this case, sponsoring terrorists as though it was a Sunday stroll.

When the history of our time is finally written by historians of some distant future ... Washington will come off as the Great Satan. I think that's a good summary of the reality. Barad-dûr.

Truly a great and monstrous evil.

NDPP

ikosmos wrote:

Gotcha Mother*uckers!

Thanks for this important posting ikosmos.

 

 

 

iyraste1313

Journalists Square off over Credibility of Syrian Coverage

By Ian Greenhalgh on December 20, 2016

Canadian freelance journalist Eva Bartlett recently made headlines after blasting mainstream news agencies for relying on questionable and unnamed sources.

c37b31fa8564471c8d79fca48334556f_18

__________
Telesur
Journalists Square off over Credibility of Syrian Coverage

sherpa-finn

NDPP wrote:

ikosmos wrote:

Gotcha Mother*uckers!

Thanks for this important posting ikosmos.

For the discerning reader / observer: 

The initial newsflash circulated here and on other fake news sites "Syrian authorities discovered the headquarters of high ranking western/NATO officers in the basement of an area in East Aleppo and have captured them alive."

Actual announcement by Syrian Diplomat:  

1. We have a list of names of foreigners who were in East Aleppo.

2. We think they were working with the moderates of the Free Syrian Army.

3. They are probably intelligence officers but we don't really know and have no proof.

4. We haven't captured them yet, but when we do we will show them to you.

5. But we do have a list of names. Honest. 

6079_Smith_W

NDPP wrote:

ikosmos wrote:

 

Thanks for this important posting ikosmos.

 

Yes, if you don't actually write the word "fuck" the metaphor is perfectly fine. Nobody will get it at all.

 

 

6079_Smith_W

swallow wrote:

Maybe babble does need a "flag as fake" function. Maybe that would be dangerous. Topic for reactions?

As you can see from the swift reflex, that would almost certainly be a non-starter. I think we are stuck with whack a mole.

Given the current climate, here and in the wider world, it actually isn't such a bad thing to go through the exercise of explaining why something doesn't make any sense. Where I have a problem with it is where it turns into obstruction, or turning it around and claiming that you don't have to pay attention to sources simply because of what they are.

 

 

NDPP

"Atlanticists are appalled that Moscow, Ankara and Tehran are now fully engaged in designing a post-Battle of Aleppo Syrian future, to the graphic exclusion of the NATO-GCC combo. It's under this context that the recent alleged capture of a bunch of NATO-GCC operatives - deployed under the US-led-from-behind 'coalition' by Syrian special forces in Aleppo must be interpreted...."

Who Profits From Turkey's 'Sarajevo Moment'  -  by Pepe Escobar

http://rt.com/op-edge/370997-turkey-ambassador-russian-assassination-syria

 

Russia, Turkey and Iran Ready To Be Guarantors in Resolving Syrian Crisis - Russian Defense Minister

http://rt.com/news/370959-russia-turkey-iran-resolving-syria

"A text of the Moscow declaration on immediate steps in resolving the Syrian crisis is being prepared. Moscow, Ankara and Tehran are ready to be guarantors of its implementation, Russian Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu said."

MegB

ikosmos wrote:

Gotcha Mother*uckers!

 

 

 

I'm getting really tired of the complaints against you. Babblers, is there an outcome you'd like to see with ikosmos, or are you content to settle this yourselves within the context of the thread.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

I'd like to see the back of him, personally. He posts fake news, is insulting, does nothing but shit-disturb. Adds nothing to the tone or content of the board that isn't objectionable.

6079_Smith_W

If he could post his crap without getting personal and insulting, larding it all up with really dumb lord of the ring metaphors, or jumping for joy about people being slaughtered I'd be okay with the fake news.

Somehow I don't see that happening.

The trolling and the endless threads has gotten to be background chatter after three years, and even if he was gone I still don't think we'd be able to have a real conversation on any issues that concern Russia and the U.S., but at least I would feel that I am conversing with people who honestly hold those positions, and aren't just propagandists.

 

 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Timebandit wrote:
I'd like to see the back of him ... does nothing but shit-disturb.

I'm flattered by your inadvertent compliment. This is what babble is about, has always been about, and, God-willing, will always be about.

.........................................................................

That story about the US "Coalition" mercenaries still has plenty of traction. The short version is that the Syrian Arab Republic may very well be able to extract concessions from the US and its satellite regimes (like Canada) over their apprehended mercenaries.

And, as much as Summary Execution might be considered more appropriate punishment when a country is being attacked for years on end by said mercenaries, we see already the "excessive" generosity shown by the Assad regime, even now, towards the captured terrorists in Aleppo. It takes great Mandela-like courage to see the way forward by Syria's leadership. What is best for the Syrian people - that's what matters; that they remain sovereign. If trading the "advisors" for something that improves the lives of Syrians, then who are we to judge what is best here? In so doing, they are also a shining beacon and a great counter-example to those who say that no one can resist the Empire, or that all those who oppose the Emperor (Obama) die, and so on. 

The Empire has failed, at least for the nonce, to subjugate the Syrian people and dismember their country. The whole world should celebrate with them, and, as well, honour those who helped: Hezbollah, Iran, Russia, China to some degree, and so on.

It is to Canada's ugly disgrace that our regime applies sanctions to a country under years of siege by terrorists, that our international "bark" echoes that of the Master in Washington, that independent Canadian thought is silenced, that even in refugee policy we seem to be doing more of a brain drain of Syria's middle class than actually helping Syria in the long term, etc., etc..

Shame on Canada.

Some details about the mercenaries ...

At Least 14 US Coalition Military Officers Captured by Syrian Special Forces in East Aleppo Bunker

1.

Quote:
This story was quietly leaked by Voltaire.net, who announced, “The Security Council is sitting in private on Friday, December 16, 2016, at 17:00 GMT, while NATO officers were arrested this morning by the Syrian Special Forces in a bunker in East Aleppo.”

The UNSC members meet and do not always make public what they discuss. This is common even.

2.

Quote:
Over the past 24 hours, some 8079 terrorists and members of their families were evacuated via busses and ambulances from the neighborhoods of Salah-Eddin, al-Ansari, al-Mashhad and al-Zibdiyeh to the southwest countryside of Aleppo city”

If true, this latest news would also mean that both the Syrian and Russian governments would have additional leverage going forward in any bilateral negotiations with the US-led Coalition.

If, however, this story is kept under wraps by NATO member governments and summarily blacked out by the US and European media outlets, then it might indicate that a deal has been struck, albeit behind the scenes, for the return of captured NATO operatives in exchange for other concessions.

So we may hear nothing and yet there can still be progress on this issue. Those who say that unless there is noisy and continuous blather from the respective governments about this issue, etc., are being highly misleading here.

Furthermore ...

Quote:
For anyone who has been paying close attention to the Syrian Conflict, seeing NATO special forces or “contractors” working with ‘rebel’ or terrorist fighters inside of Syria is nothing unusual. Numerous reports have been filed of British soldiers assigned to fighting groups to help with training, strategy and logistics. In June 2016, The Telegraph admitted that British special forces were helping one rebel group, “… with logistics, like building defences to make the bunkers safe,” said one ‘rebel’ fighter. Other reports, including the LA Times which detailed CIA operations used to arm militants, including Al Nusra Front (al Qaeda in Syria) who were the terrorist force in charge in East Aleppo. Other revelations of US covert involvement include The New York Times, and also information on US (NATO by another name only) covert operations provided to the Wall Street Journal. South Front also notes: “Earlier in December, SF already noted that the US despearate attempts to push a “diplomatic solution” in Aleppo could indicate that the Obama administration stalling for time to extricate US mercenaries and special service members from the Aleppo pocket:”

In fact, the article notes that horse-trading of prisoners goes on in other NATO-sponsored conflicts, i.e., Ukraine ...

Quote:
21WIRE can also point out that throughout fighting in the Donbass in eastern Ukraine, during the period of May 2014 to the present, numerous incidents have been reported where NATO military soldiers and operatives have been both spotted, and captured by rebel forces, and in most cases these reports have been muted, more than likely because of ‘horse trading’ taking place as an extension of wider diplomacy.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

ikosmos wrote:

Timebandit wrote:
I'd like to see the back of him ... does nothing but shit-disturb.

I'm flattered by your inadvertent compliment. This is what babble is about, has always been about, and, God-willing, will always be about.

Shit-disturbing for the sake of shit-disturbing is the antithesis of what babble has always been about. Any substantive or progressive discussion you engage in soon gets derailed and obfuscated. You're a liability. Be happy I'm not moderating.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I find your constant attack of people's posts for posting "fake news" to be distracting and condescending. We can all read and analyse and frankly I read the links I want to. I would hate to have you censuring the links available at this site. We would only be reading propaganda talking points from one side not multiple propaganda sources. 

If we are banning people for posting thread upon thread of "fake news" then I think you need to include North Report. Mind you he only insults NDP'ers not other babblers who are anti-Russian but he sure does post a lot of fake news. 

If you were a moderator I am sure you would ban a lot of people including me. Then you could have a nice little party with people who share all your views because of course your views are the ones that count.

 

NDPP

Russian, Turkish, Iranian FMs Speak After Moscow Meeting on Syria (and vid)

https://youtu.be/HPAbYOmJdO0

"Russian FM Sergey Lavrov, his Turkish and Iranian counterparts, Mevlet Cavusoglu and Javad Zarif, address the media following trilateral talks on Syria in Moscow."

 

Journalist Eva Bartlett Reports on Syria & Aleppo To Audiences in California (and vid)

http://newcoldwar.org/journalist-eva-bartlett-reports-syria-aleppo-audie...

"Canadian journalist Eva Bartlett is speaking to audiences in the US on her observations in Syria during the past three years, including this year in Aleppo. She spoke to an audience in Santa Cruz, California on Dec 16, 2016

NDPP

Egyptian Police Arrest Five People Using Children to Stage Fake Footage (and vid)

http://independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/aleppo-fake-footage-chil...

"Five people in Port Said allegedly making fake videos purporting to show the wreckage of air-strikes in the Syrian city of Aleppo have been arrested."

MegB

kropotkin1951 wrote:

 We would only be reading propaganda talking points from one side not multiple propaganda sources.

 

This made me laugh, because it's true.

Unionist

MegB wrote:

ikosmos wrote:

Gotcha Mother*uckers!

 

 

 

I'm getting really tired of the complaints against you. Babblers, is there an outcome you'd like to see with ikosmos, or are you content to settle this yourselves within the context of the thread.

Just a plea, Meg, to leave all this alone. It's all legitimate debate, even if some don't frame it very cleverly. If news is fake, which it arguably all is, it should be exposed - not shut down. I'm actually wondering whether our system of anonymous complaints shouldn't be re-thought.

swallow swallow's picture

Falagging posts is intended as group contribution to moderation, I thought -- since we can't expect the moderator(s) to read everything, babblers have to call their attention to problems or the problems go unaddressed. 

For me at least, the issue with ikosmos is not the fake news, it's the  abuse, some times framed in misogynistic and violent language, of fellow babblers. In my opinion, this violates the temrs of service we all agreed to when signing up;. If I wanted to be part of a forum like that, personally, I'd prefer the comments section of a mainstream media site. I had thought babble aimed at being better than that. At being a pro-feminist space, in fact. 

6079_Smith_W

I complained about that one, Unionist. Do you have a problem with that?

No one is trying to suspend or kick anyone out of here for legitimate debate (even though I have seen you make the argument that certain people and their arguments do not belong here - guess that makes them "illegitimate"). You were wrong then, and I think you are wrong here.

And as I said in the moderation thread, we should remember who is actually calling for moderation based on politics.

It isn't even him spamming this board that has gotten us here. Or the fake stories. NDPP is just as active, and uses many of the same sources. But he isn't a jerk about it, doesn't brag about beating up other posters and dare them to try and hurt him. Doesn't cheer people being bombed, doesn't constantly undermine everyone who doesn't agree with him. Doesn't undermine this board as a whole.

Last time someone got canned for that kind of behaviour all of us recognized it for what it was. No one tried to claim it was about politics. ikosmos is considerably less reckless when it comes to playing it close to the line, but he still uses smears, and dishonest argument, which in a lot of cases is more designed to disrupt than actually discuss issues.

I have had several of you get in my face at least as much if not more than him. There is a big difference because while I strongly disagree with you on some issues, I think you, k, Sean, and others honestly care about the existence of this board, and aren't just using it as a tool.

And frankly, as much as I am annoyed by his spamming, and his reprinting of what are essentially government press releases, I got over that a couple of years ago, and I put up with it. And if he dialed back on the attacks I would continue to put up with it. But stuff like what he just posted are a good example of how he regards this place and the people here.

 

Mobo2000

Meg:  I very much would like to see these threads remain open and no one being banned.   Let's let everyone keep on keeping on.  We need more posters here, not less.

Smith & Timebandit:   I think you give as good as you get in general, and especially on this thread.   Calling people trolls, constantly questioning people's motives, saying they are "spamming the board" are all subjective judgements of someone else's intent and motives.   Rather than just discussing what they actually say.    Doing this invariably ups the temperature of the conversation, for no real purpose.   If ikosmos is in fact actually a russian paid troll, you saying it does nothing to refute anything he is saying.   And its a little trying for people who want to read this thread to have it interrupted every few minutes with people making personal comments about his motives, or accusing him of being "pro-Putin".

I am grateful for what he and NDPP bring to the board.

Re: Fake news -- lord, I hope we don't get a flag.   Fake news is not a problem.  The MSM thinks it is because they have lost so much credibility and want it back, and this "fake news" meme is their method.  

ETA:  Also, I think sherpa finn handled the "fake news" well, and we will see over the coming weeks if there was anything to it.  

 

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

I find your constant attack of people's posts for posting "fake news" to be distracting and condescending. We can all read and analyse and frankly I read the links I want to. I would hate to have you censuring the links available at this site. We would only be reading propaganda talking points from one side not multiple propaganda sources. 

If we are banning people for posting thread upon thread of "fake news" then I think you need to include North Report. Mind you he only insults NDP'ers not other babblers who are anti-Russian but he sure does post a lot of fake news. 

If you were a moderator I am sure you would ban a lot of people including me. Then you could have a nice little party with people who share all your views because of course your views are the ones that count.

 


Your prognostication would be incorrect. You don't generally go out of your way to provoke, attack and post demonstrably untrue things, so I can't imagine why you'd make that assumption. I would also like to point out that in 15 years of participating on this board, I've never objected to the presence of people I disagree with. I appreciate debate. I don't appreciate abuse or false information. in my professional life, I'm always looking at the other side of the argument and unlike some on this board, if the argument is compelling enough, I've been known to change my mind. I have no problem with other points of view, I have a problem with playing fast and loose with the truth. So I think your assessment is a little unfair.

6079_Smith_W

Mobo, this has been going on for a lot longer than the three weeks you have been here.

In the first place, I think it is fair to call opening scores of threads on exactly the same topic "spamming". Ditto for posting the same link multiple times in these multiple threads. Used to be extras would get stopped and rolled into one. That isn't how things are done now, but I reserve the right to call it for what it is, especially when the drift and duplication gets so bad that we are no longer on the original topic.

I spent several years keeping this by the book, and on the subject matter, and not saying a word questioning posters'  good faith, but there is a point there too, where one must call it for what it is. I have never called anyone here a paid troll. I do consider baiting people and showing a disregard for them and this board to be trolling

You might disagree, bu t unlike some of the accusations that get thrown around here, I can actually point to evidence of what I am talking about.

For that matter this is in no way an interruption. I am responding to a request from our moderator for input about what to do about an ongoing problem that has received numerous complaints. That is why I am perhaps being a bit more open and honest about this than I often am.

 

 

 

 

Mobo2000

Smith:   Fair enough, I don't want to get into (more) meta discussion of the Best Way to Argue on the Internet (hint: more caps).   I mainly wanted to get my 2 cents in that I do find these threads useful and not objectionable, as Meg had asked about it.  

But I do want to reiterate that what is baiting, what is showing disregard for someone, and what is trolling are highly personal judgements, subjective.   Others may see it differently.   You seem to be saying you have seen a consistent pattern of behaviour over time.   I have also been reading babble a long time, and I respectfully disagree in this case.  I view some of the heat here coming from genuine exasperation on ikosmos' and others that they are being misinterpreted and personally attacked for sharing opinions that I think many people would find normal/regular and to be expected on a progressive message board.  

I think most people here are on the same page with regards to the basic moral principles involved:   support of national sovereignty, opposition of imperial projects, anti-war, anti-violence, pro-self determination.

No one on this thread is proposing a tangible action that could materially affect events in Syria now, so we are not engaged in an urgent moral discussion on the best way forward.   We are just trading opinions (and others are offering links and 3rd party analysis, which I am grateful for).   There are clearly differences in our understanding and interpretation of the history and context of the current Syrian conflict (and the role in the world of the American empire more generally).   But those differences can be overcome through discussion.   I'm a glass half full guy here.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Quote:

Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Dec. 20 that Russia, Iran and Turkey were ready to act as guarantors in a peace deal between the Syrian government and the opposition.

Lavrov told reporters in Moscow after a tripartite meeting that the three ministers had signed a joint statement which states that Russia, Iran and Turkey “express their willingness to help the Syrian government and the opposition draft an agreement and act as its guarantors.”

The meeting came one day after Russian Ambassador to Ankara Andrey Karlov was assassinated at an art exhibition in the capital by a policeman who shouted: “Don’t forget Aleppo! Don’t forget Syria!”

Speaking after Lavrov, Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlüt Çavuşoğlu said Turkey would continue its efforts for a political solution in Syria, for the widening of a cease-fire across the country and for the interrupted supply of humanitarian aid. 

This is the best news yet to come out the Syrian civil war.  The same news article gives an account on the ground about what is happening with the evacuation of the insurgents from Aleppo and government supporters from other areas.  Very different than the fake news sites that were screaming genocide only earlier this week.

Quote:

A total 37,500 people have been evacuated from Aleppo so far and the goal is to complete all evacuations by Dec. 21, Çavuşoğlu wrote on Twitter on Dec. 20, while the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said 25,000 people had been bused out of east Aleppo.

“Yesterday [Dec. 19] only, we evacuated 15,000 people from east Aleppo. If we consider those evacuated on [Dec. 20] too, then the total should be 25,000,” ICRC spokeswoman Ingy Sedky told AFP.

She said “thousands” of others were still waiting to be bussed out, amid a lack of information on the numbers of civilians and fighters remaining in east Aleppo.

The ICRC has been overseeing the complex evacuation deal for Aleppo, brokered by government backer Russia and rebel supporter Turkey. 

After a month-long assault by government forces, thousands of civilians and rebels left the last remaining opposition-held districts of east Aleppo on Dec. 15 at the start of the evacuations.

The deal was suspended until early Dec. 19 over government demands for the simultaneous evacuation of two Shiite-majority villages in northwest Syria besieged by rebels.

Sedky confirmed that 750 people had thus far been bussed out of the villages of al-Fuaa and Kafraya, in Syria’s mainly rebel-held Idlib province, as part of the deal. 

Meanwhile, the Syrian government authorized the United Nations to send an additional 20 staff to east Aleppo, where they will monitor the ongoing evacuation of thousands of people, a U.N. spokesman said on Dec. 20. 

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/russia-turkey-and-iran-agree-on-joint-s...

Boze

6079_Smith_W wrote:

I complained about that one, Unionist. Do you have a problem with that?

No one is trying to suspend or kick anyone out of here for legitimate debate (even though I have seen you make the argument that certain people and their arguments do not belong here - guess that makes them "illegitimate"). You were wrong then, and I think you are wrong here.

And as I said in the moderation thread, we should remember who is actually calling for moderation based on politics.

It isn't even him spamming this board that has gotten us here. Or the fake stories. NDPP is just as active, and uses many of the same sources. But he isn't a jerk about it, doesn't brag about beating up other posters and dare them to try and hurt him. Doesn't cheer people being bombed, doesn't constantly undermine everyone who doesn't agree with him. Doesn't undermine this board as a whole.

Last time someone got canned for that kind of behaviour all of us recognized it for what it was. No one tried to claim it was about politics. ikosmos is considerably less reckless when it comes to playing it close to the line, but he still uses smears, and dishonest argument, which in a lot of cases is more designed to disrupt than actually discuss issues.

I have had several of you get in my face at least as much if not more than him. There is a big difference because while I strongly disagree with you on some issues, I think you, k, Sean, and others honestly care about the existence of this board, and aren't just using it as a tool.

And frankly, as much as I am annoyed by his spamming, and his reprinting of what are essentially government press releases, I got over that a couple of years ago, and I put up with it. And if he dialed back on the attacks I would continue to put up with it. But stuff like what he just posted are a good example of how he regards this place and the people here.

Which story is a problem, exactly? Surely it is not the link titled "Gotcha, motherfuckers?" I would have assumed it would be obvious that that refers to the story, not this board.

6079_Smith_W

It is the word, Boze.

 

Boze

Really, all this over that word?

If I tell you to get over yourself, is that violating the TOS here?

What is the legitimate way to express contempt at tone-policing and language policing efforts here?

6079_Smith_W

Well, not using that word would probably be a good start.

Look Boze, you may or may not agree, but I did not just pull this one out of the air.

 

NDPP

GRAPHIC: "Never forget this 12 year old Palestinian boy. Never forget the face of the beast who did this to him. He is a 'moderate' Syrian 'rebel'. Paid for armed by and supported by your government.

And a surprising number of liberals."

http://twitter.com/georgegalloway/status/809355013046882304

Boze

It's a word. In the English language.

 

Is it vulgar? Sure. Does using it to describe the attitude of the Syrian government towards its western attackers demonstrate anything about "how he regards this place and the people here" as you claimed? No, it does not. I find that to be a highly specious argument.

sherpa-finn

Kropotkin quoted: "Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Dec. 20 that Russia, Iran and Turkey were ready to act as guarantors in a peace deal between the Syrian government and the opposition."

It will be "interesting" to see how this plays out with the Kurds, all things considered. 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Merry Christmas, Aleppo!

Jubilant Syrians gather for Christmas celebration in west Aleppo

Quote:
The people of Aleppo have waited for this moment for far too long. After terrorist groups first entered the city back in 2012, Christmas and all other holidays were not only canceled, they were replaced with destruction, carnage and despair. For four excruciating years civilians lived in a city besieged by the world’s most heinous men from ISIS, Al-Qaeda and their affiliates.

US State Department rep John Kirby: (paraphrased) "What celebrations? I didn't see no stinking celebrations! Must be ... Russian propaganda! "

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

sherpa-finn wrote:
Kropotkin quoted: "Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said Dec. 20 that Russia, Iran and Turkey were ready to act as guarantors in a peace deal between the Syrian government and the opposition."

It will be "interesting" to see how this plays out with the Kurds, all things considered.

The Russians aim to do what the US regime and its "coalition" failed to do; separate legitimate opposition elements from the head-chopping Takfiri extremists. The message for the latter is simple; leave or die.

The Kurds, however, are a different story. There are Kurds and there are Kurds. Some have been "working closely" with troops from the US regime. Some are viewed as terrorists by, e.g., the Turkish government. Still others are allies of the Syrian Arab Republic.

Plan "B" for the US, of course, - after the terribly, "disheartening" defeat of their terrorist proxies in Aleppo has put the kibosh on a incipient caliphate in Syria - is a dismemberment of Syria through a fake federation in which their Kurdish "allies" can form a rump state ... and promptly call for US "intervention". You know. Like the kind of intervention others have cynically tried to characterize Russia's disinterested help to Syria as.

It is particularly heartening to see Iran playing a positive role in International Affairs here. I hope it continues. The leadership of the Israeli regime must be jumping up and down in fits of apoplectic rage. I really "feel" for them.

Wink

Rev Pesky

I know someone has already posted Eva Bartlett, but this video is very compelling, and should be required viewing for all who comment on the war in Syria.

Canadian journalist on lies about Syria

Quote:
...what you hear in the corporate media, and I'll name them, BBC, Guardian, the New York Times, etc., on Aleppo is also opposite of reality...

Ms. Bartlett speaks Arabic, and has been to Syria 6 times since 2014, including four trips to Aleppo. Her trips were self-funded, or fund-raised, and has gone at her own risk to report on the war.

 

6079_Smith_W

Several of the claims she made - about "recycling" children, and the hospital bombing, have been debunked.

Quote:

Ms Bartlett said: “Their video footage actually contains children that have been recycled in different reports; so you can find a girl named Aya who turns up in a report in say August, and she turns up in the next month in two different locations.”

A clip from the press conference has been viewed more than 3 million times on In The NOW, a Facebook page run by Russia Today but not branded as such.

We’ve tried to contact Ms Bartlett without success, so it’s not 100 per cent clear what she means by this, but our best guess is that she is referring to a claim involving a girl called Aya which has been circulated widely on the internet:

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-eva-bartletts-claims-a...

http://www.snopes.com/syrian-war-victims-are-being-recycled-and-al-quds-...

 

 

 

Rev Pesky

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Several of the claims she made - about "recycling" children, and the hospital bombing, have been debunked....

I think 'denied' would be the correct word, rather than 'debunked'.

Read the comments to the Channel 4 story. 

Here's one:

Quote:
Victoria Ashdown says:

The white helmets have been widely debunked, set up by PMC’s, widely filmed ‘staging’ rescues, mostly unknown by those coming out of Aleppo into the West. Funded and collaborating with the rebels – ie Al Nusra Daesh. The same men can be seen in the staged picture of the boy in the Ambulance as well as the unfortunately NOT staged video of the 12yr old boy being beheaded...

...Shame on channel 4 for not doing their homework, whatever happened to investigative journalism? My husband was in Aleppo last week interviewing refugees from E to W Aleppo – the few who had heard of them said the White helmets worked mostly with the terrorists. BTW, he offered to film and be interviewed by you on the ground in E Aleppo and will still if you actually want to know the truth…..You have no reporters on the ground!

In the case of the Snopes story, it is written by a self-described 'city hall', 'crime' and 'national politics' reporter from Los Angeles. In that article the writer associates Eva Bartlett with the people who don't believe Sandy Hook happened, and "David Icke, who is best known for believing the world is controlled by Martian lizard people."

I'll just point out that Eva Bartlett has been in Syria, and in Aleppo. Certainly no one is saying that's not true. She has also been able to speak to people there in their own language, something that many western media reporters couldn't do.

As I've point out up thread, it doesn't seem to matter how many times the western media, and the governments they represent lie, there are still those who think that  'this time it must be true'. One of those very people accused me of being 'naive'.

What do you call it when someone repeatedly accepts stories from the western media, even though they have lied over and over and over and over again? Is it just forgetfulness? Or at some point to you begin to describe it as wilful ignorance?

 

NDPP

"Recycling"?

http://twitter.com/OliveVomBaum/status/810752641122926593

 

CNN: Carla Ortiz & Her Experience in Aleppo

http://youtube.com/watch?v=y4xtstRIqwE

 

MT, Rania Khalek on Syria

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Cw7OYJREEDk

6079_Smith_W

I don't care if she has been to the moon, Rev.

The pictures are not of the same person, and Bartlett has not responded to a direct request to clarify what she was talking about. That makes it at best unsubstantiated, and at worst, a willful falsehood.

Do you honestly think they ferry the same kid around so they can bury her up to her neck one day and beat her bloody the next? That makes no sense, but the false claim makes perfect sense if you want to pretend the bombing never happened. And it is a tactic that is commonly used by news fakers (thanks NDPP, for providing another example).

Though it is as if she was on the moon, because her claim about the hospital is based on a photograph from space, and the word of the people who dropped the bomb. That is not her story; it is repeating spoon-fed propaganda.

 

 

 

 

iyraste1313

Ambassador Ja’afari then announced that not only were the operatives still in East Aleppo but that he would read their names and their nationalities for the world to hear. He was clear that the intelligence operatives were working with the terrorist groups and attempting to exit East Aleppo. The list is as follows:

  • Mu’tazz Oghlikaan-Oghlu (Turkish)
  • David Scott Winner (American)
  • David Shlomo Aram (Israeli)
  • Muhammad Shaykh Al-Islaami Al-Tameemi (Qatari)
  • Muhammad Ahmad Al-Sibyaan (Saudi Arabian)
  • ‘Abdul-Mun’im Fahd Al-Hurayj (Saudi)
  • Ahmad bin Nawfal Al-Durayj (Saudi)
  • Muhammad Hassan Al-Subay’iy (Saudi)
  • Qaasim Sa’ad Al-Shammari (Saudi intelligence agent)
  • Ayman Qaasim Al-Tha’aalibi (Saudi intelligence agent)
  • Ahmad Al-Tayaraawi (Jordanian intelligence agent)
  • Muhammad Al-Shaafi’iy Al-Idreesi (Moroccan intelligence agent)

“This is why you saw this hysterical move in this council for the last three days,” Ja’afari said. “Because the main purpose is how to rescue these terrorists, foreigners, intelligence officers, from the same countries who pushed for the adoption of the resolution, out of Aleppo.”

He then stated that the intentions of the Syrian government were to arrest these individuals and show them to the world.

Ziad Fadel of Syrian Perspective writes that Ja’afari has only named the tip of the iceberg and that his sources say there are 10 more Americans, 2 British, French, and Moroccan intelligence agents still in East Aleppo. Syper’s information was proven correct regarding the intelligence agents named by Ja’afari.

Boze

6079_Smith_W wrote:
The pictures are not of the same person, and Bartlett has not responded to a direct request to clarify what she was talking about.

Asked by whom, when and where?

Quote:
Do you honestly think they ferry the same kid around so they can bury her up to her neck one day and beat her bloody the next?

At this point, yes. Do you honestly think that's outside the realm of possibility?

Quote:
That makes no sense, but the false claim makes perfect sense if you want to pretend the bombing never happened. And it is a tactic that is commonly used by news fakers (thanks NDPP, for providing another example).

Another example of faking rescue stories?

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

It seems that the facts are starting to be reported in the US MSM as well as all the sites that people on this site like to call fake news. 

https://www.facebook.com/BenSwannRealityCheck/videos/1305885976143016/

Rev Pesky

6079_Smith_W wrote:

I don't care if she has been to the moon, Rev.

The pictures are not of the same person, and Bartlett has not responded to a direct request to clarify what she was talking about. That makes it at best unsubstantiated, and at worst, a willful falsehood.

Do you honestly think they ferry the same kid around so they can bury her up to her neck one day and beat her bloody the next? That makes no sense, but the false claim makes perfect sense if you want to pretend the bombing never happened. And it is a tactic that is commonly used by news fakers (thanks NDPP, for providing another example).

Though it is as if she was on the moon, because her claim about the hospital is based on a photograph from space, and the word of the people who dropped the bomb. That is not her story; it is repeating spoon-fed propaganda. 

Okay, I'll take you out of the 'forgetful' category, and put you in the other category.

Honestly, given the lies told by the USA over the years, I think it's incumbent upon those who believe the USA propaganda to justify their belief, not the other way round.

 

6079_Smith_W

No, the actions of one party or another doesn't change the onus of proof, or change what is in a photograph, or prove anything at all. Though even if it did, it isn't an American hospital, so are we lumping everyone who objects to it being bombed in the "American" camp?

Though again, if we are weighing evidence, I think accounts from the ground count a bit more than a satellite photo that apparently shows the building still standing (especially since MSF said they were going to reopen it).

And Boze, in both the Channel 4 article and the Snopes page it was pointed out that they asked her for clarification. She did not respond.

 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Evacuation of Jihadis from Aleppo due to end today

Quote:
As evacuation of Jihadis and civilians from Aleppo ends – with no sign of murders or massacres – the Western media loses interest in it.

From lurid reports of mass genocide to ... nothing. That's the stream of vomit called the Western MSM.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

So 6079 the real question is do you think the White Helmets are legitimate or just propaganda and do you think all the social media last week purporting to be from East Aleppo and talking about genocide were real or just propaganda?

Do you believe that many of the 800,000 people in West Aleppo were happy with the defeat of the terrorists and the liberation of East Aleppo? 

I think we have access to the same sources and my conclusion is that the White Helmets are mostly for show. The screams of genocide were fucking hilarious despite being so disingenuous.  Of course as soon as access to East Aleppo was gained by the liberating government forces the truth has come out.

I think most of the people of Syria will be genuinely happy when their government defeats the Western backed terrorists.

sherpa-finn

Kropotkin wrote: So 6079 the real question is do you think the White Helmets are legitimate or just propaganda? 

You will trust who you will, Krop. FWIW, I am in regular contact with staff of various western humanitarian agencies including MSF, and they all swear by the legitimacy of the White Helmets. 

Because they are Syrian based (if western funded), the work and testimony of the White Helmets has been hugely problematic in PR terms for the Assad Gov't. And so it and its allies have pulled out the stops over the past year in a clumsy effort to discredit the White Helmets with assorted fake media reports and planted stories. 

Over the past few years, western governments increasingly funded the White Helmets in support of the dangerous but important humanitarian work they have been doing. No doubt in so doing, these governments hoped to capitalize on any PR value for their own political agendas. That does not undermine, IMHO, the important humanitarian work the White Helmets have been doing in the most difficult and dangerous of circumstances. But it does provide a handy cudgel with which to beat them. 

On the ground, the important work of the White Helmets was widely recognised by actors across the humanitarian sector who were greatly constrained both by the nature of the Syrian conflict and by restraints and conditions imposed by the Syrian Gov't (which argued of course that humanitarian assistance not directed through the gov't was aiding and abetting the rebels / terrorist).  Babblers will recognize of course how similar this sounds to the accusations made regularly by the Israeli Gov't against many of those same NGOs for their on-going work in Palestine and most notably Gaza.  

The recognition of and respect for the White Helmets across the humanitarian sector led them to be declared co-winners this year of the 'alternative Nobel Peace Prize' -  the Swedish-based (non-governmental) Right Livelihood Award Foundation. Their citation read simply for "outstanding bravery, compassion and humanitarian engagement in rescuing civilians."

Needless to say, this only cranked up the phony propaganda war launched against them by Assad and allies, actively supported by a select few on Babble and maintained to this day. As the old saying goes, one of the first casualties of war is truth. 

sherpa-finn

Kropotkin asked: do you think all the social media last week purporting to be from East Aleppo and talking about genocide were real or just propaganda?

I suspect that if any of us as non-combatant civilians were on the receiving end of the sustained bombing and artillery campaign that the poor citizens of Aleppo have lived through over the past couple of years, the use of the word "genocide" might well creep into our tweets and posts. Personally I would not blame or denigrate anyone on the ground for that usage, even if some folks sitting comfortably in their armchairs an ocean or more away conclude "Collateral damage yes, - but genocide no. That is simply inappropriate and scare mongering use of a legally defined term."

syria aleppo destruction

 

Of course, just a couple of years back in the same region, there was a very similar application of blunt, brutal military power, raining down death and destruction upon a largely civilian population, this time in Gaza.  I am not sure how local social media responded at the time, but again, I would not blame anyone on the ground for shouting out "GENOCIDE!" In fact, as I recall many Babblers did just that.   

 

6079_Smith_W

You know, there actually is a way to present nuanced coverage of the problems on both sides of this without repeating government lies about hospitals not being bombed, or attacks being made up with staged photo shoots of one girl.

Or without treating those risking their lives to help victims of the attacks as complicit. 

Bartlett could have pointed out why journalists really have such a hard time doing their job in a war zone, which is responsible for the propaganda on both sides of this as this article details:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/aleppo-crisis-syrian-war-bashar-al-a...

But of course that wouldn't jive too well with the evil MSM narrative, or provide the fodder for this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9F-cHc5Qog

And it would mean not taking the time to deny the bombings which have occured, and spin what really is just as much propaganda as the worst in the western media.

 

 

NDPP

More 'fodder' from Smith's youtube site above. Hilarious.

Pres Obama Offers Hilarious Reasons For Why We're in Syria

https://youtu.be/jiqwqP_iXsc

"So what about the blood and atrocities on your hands?"

More seriously, just as they were duped into cheerleading 'humanitarian interventions' and regime change operations  in Libya or Ukraine, too many Canadian progressives appear to have again drunken deep of the toxic  MSM purple cool-aid on Syria, Al Qaeda, White Helmets and all. No wonder things are the way they are here. Oh well, at least their shameful support for these awful international crimes and maligning of courageous truth-tellers like Eva Bartlett are recorded for posterity. Notice also their significant silence on the horrors of the US-backed operation in Mosul or Canadian participation.

Syria, Russia and American Desperation  -  by Margaret Kimberley

http://blackagendareport.com/regime_change_forces_desperate

"Now that the Syrians are retaking the city with the help of their Russian and Hezbollah allies, there is a steady stream of news about Aleppo. All of it meant to pull at the heart strings of uninformed people as the human rights industrial complex goes about its dirty work.

Human Rights Watch and other groups who work to promote US foreign policy speak endlessly about war crimes. They didn't say much when America's allies were terrorizing Syrians but now they suddenly point fingers and always at the people who run afoul of regime change plans.

Blaming Russia kills several birds with one stone. It continues the propaganda war against a country that will not knuckle under and accept American hegemony. The hyper-Russophobia was also an attempt to make the unpalatable and incompetent Hillary Clinton more appealing. And its continuation is being used by Democrats and Republicans to stop the incoming president from having any chance to improve relations with that country or curtail the regime change doctrine.

The war party never sleeps." 

Nor its Canadian 'progressive' supporters.

 

 

sherpa-finn

NDPP writes: Human Rights Watch and other groups who work to promote US foreign policy speak endlessly about war crimes. They didn't say much when America's allies were terrorizing Syrians but now they suddenly point fingers and always at the people who run afoul of regime change plans.

I call bullshit. Once again the Assad apologists and Putin promoters on this site are just making up stuff. A simple two second Google search will turn-up multiple references to Human Rights Watch detailed work in-country documenting abuses by the rebel forces in Syria, alongside their testimony of abuses by Syrian state forces and their allies.     

Take for example last years 79-page report by HRW, “‘He Didn’t Have to Die’: Indiscriminate Attacks by Syrian Opposition Groups,” which documents scores of attacks in heavily populated, government-controlled areas and is based primarily on victim and witness accounts, on-site investigations, publicly available videos, and information on social media sites.  “We’ve seen a race to the bottom in Syria with rebel groups mimicking the ruthlessness of government forces with devastating consequences for civilians,” said Nadim Houry, HRW's deputy Middle East and North Africa director. “Civilians are paying the price, be it in government or rebel-held areas, with an inadequate international response.”

The truth hurts, and speaking truth to power is a high risk game. No government likes to be criticised by civil society groups. But fortunately most Canadian progressives, with roots in diverse local, national and international civil society organizations, bring a more critical and discerning eye to these discussions that do the persistent lackeys of the Russian state. 

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