activity of grass roots political party between elections
I am continually perplexed by the fact that we complain that people don't vote or don't think their vote counts but that we wait until an election is called to talk with them. Look at all the time that is being wasted that could be used explaining the process and parties to people -let them in on the issues and let them know that they are a very important part of the process which becomes less and less democratic without their participation. I believe that empowering people could make a terrific difference in election outcomes and government behaviour. It also seems that we are letting students go by the wayside and they are probably inactive politically for the same reasons as the others - not believing that they matter - that the world will go on without their involvement. Anyway political party members, get back to your base and confer with your compatriots about what you could be doing NOW to get this country back on the democratic track from which we have allowed it to wander. Any reactions out there?
Hi granny, welcome to babble!
I think you will find a large number of people here who agree with every word you said! Many babblers are year-long advocates for proportional representation and electoral reform, and many more are involved in countless protests and demonstrations in between elections: anti-prorogue, G20, HST, Gaza, Tuition Hikes, to name a few.
Anyway, looks like you're off to a great start, and I look forward to hearing more of what you have to say. Oh, and, judging from your user profile, you might also be interested in our gardening thread! I was just out pulling up some beets and putting in some purple sprouting broccoli abd brussel sprout plants I started a few weeks ago...
Just finished manning an NDP booth at a local fair. Some members engaged in political discourse amongst themselves, or fended off criticism from 'old time members'. I gave out balloons. When a child asks for a balloon, that's what they get .. a balloon. When you offer a balloon before they ask, and get down on your knees, shake their hand, tell a joke and tie a treasure to their wrist, they get an experience, they smile, their parents laugh, and you've made a connection.
As a party at a community event our politics are a distraction. People's lives are filled with so much political emotion, many are afraid to be caught even acknowledging our presence. (Unless of course they have a beef) So we have a free draw .. lunch with your MLA at the legislature.. (when was the last time you got a free lunch?) More smiles, more connections.
Sometimes the job of saving the world can be pretty daunting, even the staunchest activists are overwhelmed. Just when you think you're making some headway on the very essence of what it means to be NDP, the party goes and ..... no not the long gun registry again! (You know what I mean) Most people just don't have any more emotional energy to invest. Many are feeling that no matter who they vote for they will be betrayed, or have been betrayed (ask any Liberal in BC) after the vote is cast ... so why bother? What can we do? ...Build connections.
October 20th is the late Tommy Douglas's Birthday. We're going to have a party; a cake , some ice cream, maybe a video of Mouseland, some Tommy Douglas posters and memorabilia, a silent auction and the finals af a public speaking contest for 12 to 18 year olds. One hundred dollars first prize for the winning three minute speech. The topic? "...'tis not too late to make a better world!..."Tommy Douglas
Granny, your post was spot on. Most voters who aren't bought by last minute promises, vote for people or parties they have a connection with, people and parties they trust.
Its time to get our collective heads out of the clouds and get down on our knees and hand out balloons! I can't imagine why anyone would bother voting for people who are so busy positioning themselves on trigger point issues that they haven't got time for people. Does it matter where we stand if nobody votes?
Challenge your local executive to celebrate the life and legacy of The Greatest Canadian and build some connections with the people who will vote for the first time in the next election...
"..I am continually perplexed by the fact that we complain that people don't vote or don't think their vote counts but that we wait until an election is called to talk with them..."
Granny, I have been talking about this for years - with approximately the same response you are getting in this thread. It really makes you wonder about some things. Obviously labelled above has the right idea and is doing the right stuff, and I am sure there is a lot of this going on - but without a more consistent approach, and more publicity, with 'head office' support and pushing, it's far too little. I add in the likes of Rabble also - this is the kind of forum where people do not need to wait for pushing from head office, but can take action on their own - but there appears to be nothing along the lines of helping people get organised and pushing them to inform others about major issues, NDP policies, etc, between elections - and then an election is called, everybody goes crazy for a few weeks, and then back to sleep. I sometimes wonder how serious anybody 'higher up' really is about change - as I have written elsewhere, if I was the neocons takling over Canada, the way the NDP and major internet outlets such as Rabble are 'leading' the progressive opposition to them is about what I would want - a place where those who do not like the neocon takeover can go to meet like-minded people and complain a lot, without actually getting into anything dangerous.
(the whole thing here - http://www.swans.com/library/art11/dpatt01.html )
Introductions is a good place to introduce yourself.
But probably not the greatest for getting responses on stuff that isn't unusual, witty, or whatever. I never saw the thread until it was referenced by dave.
That said, it was referenced from a thread in the right forum, and a topic on similar lines, but is only less slow moving than this one.
And its not because its politics, electoral politics [ewww], because threads that are about bitching about or extolling the NDP, or even the latest going in the Green Party, even if its rather dry.... all that gets more viewing and more talk.
Of well.
I never give up on drawing people in at times other than elections.... but I also learned that for working on elections is why most people come to the NDP, when they do. [Now why did that surprise you he said to himself way back when.] Even most policy and political junkie oriented people are the same.
In fact, the best way to get people responding when you put yourself out and about, is to have created some buzz first. I know, chicken and egg. But counter-intutive as it is, you can do the buzz first, if you've thought about how to capitalize and are ready to do it. Or you do it when you have something coming up like booth at the fair, where people are coming to you.
..if I was the neocons taking over Canada, the way the NDP and major internet outlets such as Rabble are 'leading' the progressive opposition to them is about what I would want - a place where those who do not like the neocon takeover can go to meet like-minded people and complain a lot, without actually getting into anything dangerous.
Ahhh... but if you were the Machievellian neocon you would be making the mistake of thinking the only way THEY are going to get moving was to do what you did: have elite converstations, especially in think tanks, that shift opinion in the mainstream media, so that you are ready to take charge, mostly via the political parties of the Right.
Therefore, Machi the puppeteer would be thinking "I just have to keep them away from the levers of 'information'- the MSM. So I'll have them all flailing about in impotent attempts to organizae this and that [with the NDP being part of that].
But that would be Machi making the mistake of generals fighting the next war as if it was the last one.
Because the Left is never going to be able to use the mainstream media more than periperally anyway. So that isnt where the potential threat to your hegemony lies. Its actually the grassroots work you are sneering at. Which indeed is impotent, because the dummies arent learning anything.
But that does not mean they can't. And feckless as they look (are), the place they are going to figure it out is right where they are.
Again, you confuse me with what you are trying to say - here, first you say "..that shift opinion in the mainstream media.." - which sounds very much as if you believe that the media are some kind of great neutral conduit of information, and the rightwing has been winning (partly) because they use that conduit more effectively than the lefties. But then later you say "..Because the Left is never going to be able to use the mainstream media more than periperally anyway.." - indicating you believe (as I do) that the MSM is not some neutral purveyor of news at all, far from it, but is actually controlled by the rightwing, our enemy. Not a major point in terms of this posting, but this kind of unclarity and/or contradiction then carries over into other things. (as an aside, it is apparent that many people on the left - certainly many on Rabble - seem to regard the MSM as pretty honest purveyors of 'news' - a fact which would need to be considered in any attempt to get people organised to work more effectiveely - you cannot work effectively when much of what you believe is based on the MSM, and you cannot organise effectively if you believe you are living in some happy little world where the MSM is a tool equally available to all, etc - if you do not understand these people are the enemy, essentially, you're just spinning wheels at the sunday school picnic ...)
You say "..But that would be Machi making the mistake of generals fighting the next war as if it was the last one..." - I really wonder how much you understand of what is going on sometimes - the rightwing people are far, far ahead of the lefties in understanding what is going on here, which is why they have been winning for the last 40 years - it's the lefties still fighting old wars with old tools, while the people running us are playing most of you like puppets on strings (I deliberately did not say 'we' - I see pretty clearly what is happening, and it is frustrating as hell to try to wake some of you up) - leading to
- you say "..Its actually the grassroots work you are sneering at. Which indeed is impotent, because the dummies arent learning anything..." - I am not sneering at anything - I am kind of waving my hands in despair, though, as I try to turn some lights on and everyone waves me off because of their ever so important 'rearranging the deck chairs' activities. As I tried to say before - WHY isn't the grassroots more effective? You in the NDP share the values of most Canadians, yet you cannot gain any traction as the right wing gets worse and worse - do you suppose there is something you're all missing here that might be related to this failure to engage people? I suspect - I am quite sure - to a large extent because the right wing people have fifth columnists scattered around whose very job is to ensure that no effective grassroots movements get organised - pure obstructionism, and done very effectively, and if you will not even acknowledge the possiblity, for reasons that entirely escape me, you really have no hope at all of improving anything. You waved aside this idea when I mentioned it before - without giving any alternative thoughts on the reasons for the ineffectiveness.
Well, I won't get into anything long here - it seems you don't really have any interest in what I am trying to tell you - you say you are looking for new ideas, but immediately reject anything that doesn't conform to some kind of pre-conceived filter you have - which ensures you are going to stay exactly where you are - going nowhere. But I will keep reading and offering my thoughts where I can - it does appear that others whose eyes actually are open are browsing around here and there, and who knows when something might connect.
Geez Dave.
I wrote a short little illustrative story. I think its very clear the neocon is the one that is speaking in the story. But you interpret as if my narrator the neocon is referring to things you said. Example: you say "I am not sneering at anything"; but it was the neoc0n Machi sneering. I dont blame you for making that mistake, but I have to just ignore where that is tangled in because there's nothing served by untangling it. Like the utility in explaining a joke.
So I'll stick to addressing the larger points. Maybe or maybe not including the point Machi the neocon puppeteer was meant to illustrate.
You assume that people talk about making use of the MSM, especially but not only those in and around the NDP, that they think it is neutral.
Clearly I dont think that- since I've said numerous times in these related discussions, just like Cueball, that the mainstream media are not our friends and that we are not going to shift the terms of the debt using them as a medium.
Possibly, because of saying things like that, you exclude me from what you see as naivete. [Though only possibly- but lets not get started on where that leads.... that in practice, unless we agree with all your 'minimum understandings', then we are hobbled by delusions.]
That I or anyone else talks about making use of the MSM only tells you we are talking about the dynamics in front of us. In the near term, you can do very little outreach without part of your 'overall projection' being seen in the MSM. That isnt just the NDP. Thats true of local organizing too. Of course you can do without. But there's no need to unless you have some ideologicaly based reason for excluding working through the media [and you will not be working in a very broad based group].
The fact that I make use of the MSM tells you nothing at all about what I understand about the limits of that. So dont presume that about me or about generalized groups of people. More to the point: if you incorporate it into your analysis about what it takes to get organized, and the obstacles to that, your analyis is fundamentally flawed.
I think it is imperative to continue working on the levels we can do so 'as is', with all the limits of those- which means playing by the rules of those games. The fact we arent getting anywhere on the 'higher levels' of shifting the terms of the debate, does not mean that we should stop working on the other levels.
While I would agree that 'playing by the rules of the [existing] game'- including making use of the MSM at least to be seen- does have a tendency to perpetuate the game never shifting.... I dont see that as determining as you and others would. Not to mention that I think our practice within the 'games' with the circumscribed rules that are not in our interests, are where we are going to learn cumulatively how to break out of those bounds.
We're not going to agree on those questions. And thats fine. But stop muddling together lack of agreement with 'not undertanding'.
The point I was trying to illustrate with the Machi character is one we've been over elsewhere: I think people are fundamentally mistaken in what they think the Right did.
Not really "what"- because we all agree that the Right succeeded at shifting the terms of the larger debates- which we have consistently failed to do.
Where we disagree was on how they did that. I think that the Right shifted the terms of the debate primarily by direct elite based shifting of the agenda. Essentially: think tanks and the like talking [and just talking], and the media picking it up and being the medium of propagation. Thats irrelevant as an example because it wont work for us. Nor did the parties of the Right push the envelope past current consensus: they followed in the wake of that elite based agenda shift. That shift did not just start in the elites- they did all the doing for the shifting of the debate.
Further: that the Right did not shift the debate directly through the means of grassroots organizations. Nor are they better at organizing than we are. What they are better at is getting their message across. To me, what people are not getting is that the Right being better at getting their message across is purely because they have the MSM to repeat and propagate. It has nothing to do with better organizing at the grassroots.
Simply put: they had and have advantages, and we havent figured out how to overcome them. And looking to them for examplaes on how to do- even at the most general level- gets us off track.
Hopefully, thats a fair enough surmise of where the disagreement lies. The content is skewed towards expressing my side, but hopefully what is being disagreed about has not been mischaracterized.
So all that said- what does it matter? Seriously.
We'll leave the point unchallenged that the Right has out-organized us, etc, etc. Assume it is true. Where does that lead us?
[And not only to more analysis that has to be done.] What kinds of things do people need to start doing, what steps?
good - I like that - we're talking - more soon -
- just occurs to me - this is interesting - sitting at a kitchen table, or over a beer in the local beer place (or coffee in the coffee place, whatever your poison is..), we feel each other out through body language and tone of voice and eye contact and such things - sharing ideas, negotiating positions etc, over a discussion thread like this is a completely different process - I'm enjoying this new experience, the ebb and flow - other discussions of a more 'divided' shall we say nature tend to fairly quickly come to a 'line in the sand' sort of thing, and a kind of stand-off and end of discussion - we are not going there, we both get a bit aggressive at times, but also both back off enough to continue talking - I am finding this process as interesting as the actual content .... (which I will return to anon, as the Bard put it - end of day for me here, some food and Henry IV (catching up on some old stuff these days) and it may be tomorrow before I get back to this ...)
True.
I'm sure I could have great face to face discussions with people I have line in the sand standoffs here.