Hi fellow Babblers...I am new. I am looking for some good conversation, and some healthy debate.
I am not a lefty, but I am friendly, open-minded, and hoping for some thought-provoking political talk.
Good to be here!
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Hi junebug! Welcome to babble--love your handle. Looking forward to see what you have to offer!
While we sometimes abide non-lefties here, they're an endangered species on this board. Make sure you've read and understand the babble policy you agreed to when you registered. Particularly the following paragraphs:
babble is NOT intended as a place where the basic and essential values of human rights, feminism, anti-racism, and labour rights are to be debated or refought. Members that join babble who indicate intentions to challenge these rights and principles may be seen as disruptive to the nature of the forum.
See you on the boards!
catchfire... jeez, who gave you your "welcome wagon" training. LOL
Welcome junebug, hope you enjoy the complimentary muffin basket.
Hi Catchfire...
Thanks for the welcome...and for the reminder.
But oh dear...it looks as though I may not be a member too long here...I am definitely pro-human rights, pro-feminist, and anti-racist...but not pro-labour I'm afraid.
Hi bagkitty...I am extremely pro-muffin! :)
They are union-made muffins
They are union-made muffins
haha...well, if they're reasonable in price I'll definitely have some
Considering the discussion happening over here, it there any thought being given to adding 'pro-aboriginal rights' to the Babble Policy statment?
Geez. Since when are moderators on the welcoming committee? We're the fucking po-po. ;)
Krago: in short, yes.
If I can be allowed to be serious for a moment.
You can be anything you want. In this case, you don't have to be pro-labour. The minimum is that you dont make anti-labour statements. Which wouldn't include that you cant be critical of unions. But if you know you don't have much time for unions, then practically speaking, if you make an unfriendly comment, in being asked to explain it, you can expect to end up somewhere where you will be told to take it end it.
Junebugs?
I'm surpised anyone identifies with junebugs.
All sorts.
welcome junebug!
personally i like to see people with different views here, it gets boring if all we do is agree with each other and sounds like you welcome debate!
but not pro-labour I'm afraid.
Aha. Ripe for conversion.
@ Krago: I am pro-everyone rights.
@KenS: I am not in favor of unions...but I'm not rude, I can talk/debate about things without being a jerk about it...promise.
@milo204: I think differing opinions leads to healthy debate...and that can be fun, so yes I welcome it. My friends think that makes me a nerd...and they'd be right.
@skdadl: haha...yes, I have an open mind on everything...I suppose I could be converted into a pro-union socialist...I highly doubt it, but I also know there is such a thing as being too dogmatic
The "Junebug" used to be a great bait for walleyes, a spinner trailing a large night crawler. Have no idea why it was named junebug, because the little brown beetle had nothing in commin with the spinner and trailing worm.
BUT it is a lovely name, trailing all kinds of memories. Welcome. Now, what is the most important work that you have read lately! :(
So what is the alternative to unions, Junebug, to protect workers?
So what is the alternative to unions, Junebug, to protect workers?
The free market protects workers by punishing businesses who under-pay or mistreat their workers.
In a free market there's room for plenty of competing businesses, and greater choice for workers looking to find a decent job that pays well, has benefits, etc.
A business competing in a free market would be forced to treat its employees well, or risk losing valued labor to competitors, and likewise risk losing market share, and perhaps eventually have to shut its doors permanently because of lost business.
You can see the effect of this in reading Oliver Twist. Atlas Shrugged might leave you with the more optimistic view. But some feel that the recent socialization of finance capital should have put paid to such social speculation as well. :)
You can see the effect of this in reading Oliver Twist. Atlas Shrugged might leave you with the more optimistic view. But some feel that the recent socialization of finance capital should have put paid to such social speculation as well. :)
I thought both of those books were good, though I admit I haven't read Oliver Twist since I was a teenager. No surprise, if I had to pick which I enjoyed more, I'd have to go with Atlas Shrugged. ;)
I agree there is a double-standard at play as we see government subsidize bankers while union workers fight tooth and nail for a greater sliver of the pie; still, I long for a true free market economy in place of the corporatism we currently "enjoy".
Hi, junebug. welcome.
Hi Catchfire...
Thanks for the welcome...and for the reminder.
But oh dear...it looks as though I may not be a member too long here...I am definitely pro-human rights, pro-feminist, and anti-racist...but not pro-labour I'm afraid.
Why not pro-labour? Aren't decent wages and working conditions human rights? And don't they affect us all, since all of us either work or would like to get a job if we've been laid off from one?
So what is the alternative to unions, Junebug, to protect workers?
The free market protects workers by punishing businesses who under-pay or mistreat their workers.
OH...I see...you're posting from the Bizarro World...
The free market protects workers by punishing businesses who under-pay or mistreat their workers.
In a free market there's room for plenty of competing businesses, and greater choice for workers looking to find a decent job that pays well, has benefits, etc.
A business competing in a free market would be forced to treat its employees well, or risk losing valued labor to competitors, and likewise risk losing market share, and perhaps eventually have to shut its doors permanently because of lost business.
june bug, i see you believe in liberal utopias that are likely as possible for the real world as they are for the head of a pin. i too like fairy tales, especially before i fall asleep!
Caissa is sorry he asked the question.
BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHHAhahhhaahhhahoooohhhhheeeeehhaaahahhahhhahahahahahah...haa.ha...*cough* ahem*..heh...
I think I just peed myself a little bit.
One day, I am sure, we will see an real example of the mysterious Wonder Working Powers of the Almighty Free Market punishing a business for such sins, but I think we'll see Jesus parading down Spadina in Mormon underpants before we ever see this curiously unfounded and baffling belief ever occur.
Hi Catchfire...
Thanks for the welcome...and for the reminder.
But oh dear...it looks as though I may not be a member too long here...I am definitely pro-human rights, pro-feminist, and anti-racist...but not pro-labour I'm afraid.
Why not pro-labour? Aren't decent wages and working conditions human rights? And don't they affect us all, since all of us either work or would like to get a job if we've been laid off from one?
I should clarify, I am not pro organized labour in the form of unions. To me, it's a bit of backward way of looking to improve rates of pay and benefits for workers. The true incentive to provide good pay and good benefits can only come from the rewards and punishments of operating in a sink/swim free market. Fighting to forcefully gain better pay and better benefits only drags those processes out and is inefficient, nevermind all the heartache and stress that comes from the whole butting of heads that often occurs between unionized labour and profit-hungry management. Make companies compete for quality labour, and the worker wins.
Decent wages and good working conditions are a great thing...a human right? I don't believe that...I think it is up to each individual to decide for themselves what their labour is worth. If you feel underpaid, overworked, or lacking in benefits...vote with your feet. In a free market, companies who are unable to keep good workers because they are unwilling or unable to provide good wages, a safe working environment, and good benefits will suffer the consequences...and they are consequences that are far greater than any a union can bring about.
The free market protects workers by punishing businesses who under-pay or mistreat their workers.
In a free market there's room for plenty of competing businesses, and greater choice for workers looking to find a decent job that pays well, has benefits, etc.
A business competing in a free market would be forced to treat its employees well, or risk losing valued labor to competitors, and likewise risk losing market share, and perhaps eventually have to shut its doors permanently because of lost business.
june bug, i see you believe in liberal utopias that are likely as possible for the real world as they are for the head of a pin. i too like fairy tales, especially before i fall asleep!
The idea of a free market economy is not utopian...I dare say it's a more realistic vision for our society than the current setup.
BWAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAAHAHHAhahhhaahhhahoooohhhhheeeeehhaaahahhahhhahahahahahah...haa.ha...*cough* ahem*..heh...
I think I just peed myself a little bit.
One day, I am sure, we will see an real example of the mysterious Wonder Working Powers of the Almighty Free Market punishing a business for such sins, but I think we'll see Jesus parading down Spadina in Mormon underpants before we ever see this curiously unfounded and baffling belief ever occur.
Why do you find a belief in free market economics (aka Austrian school economics) baffling?
Why do you find a belief in free market economics (aka Austrian school economics) baffling?
I don't find it at all baffling, myself. It obviously serves the interests of those who hold wealth and power in the world. And, as someone once observed, "the ruling ideas of the age are the ideas of the ruling class" - and that was before advertising and allied techniques of persuasion really got off the ground!
It's when people don't believe this crap that I ask, "how did that happen?"
Hey junebug.
As cute as your name is, and especially given that my name is also month-y, I need to say, you will not get too far on babble with the various statements and beliefs about how the market, labour, and unionized workers work, in your ideal pro-capitalist, pro-boss world. I've already given you notice in this thread.
And while I've been mildly enjoying the rocking smarts of the various babblers who've been picking apart your "arguments" you are in fact beginning to sound like a troll.
If you truly hold the view that you indicated at post #3, I strongly suggest you stick to the topics in which you aren't challenging the basic core principles of babble.
Well thats a relief. For awhile there I thought I might have missed an ad or something for adopt a fool week.
When mentioning the Austrian School and favouring Atlas Shrugged, Junebug is clearly toying with us a bit here. But until it becomes offensively critical of others, ad hominem to the hilt...the style of some older residents, the "Babble Old School" ...I hope that people in charge of the switches that seal one's fate can remain calm. It is actually refreshing to see theory tossed into the ring instead of four-letter exchanges. Love to see a sturdy defence of Schumpeter and von Hayek ...in the face of recent economic events.
If that is all right with those who prefer slanging matches,baiting and bullying.
George, if you could express your desires for debating the pros and cons of the free market without broadstroke smears against a whole whack of babblers, that would be grand. One (i.e. you) can make personal attacks without resorting to "four-letter exchanges."
And Slumberjack, don't call new babblers "fools," even if they hold views counter to this site's mandate, even if you're 95% sure he or she is a troll.
My dear Catchfire, I am only speaking from recent personal experience...which has gone without explanation or intervention by anyone. A really nasty experience, by the way.
And I can understand your heading for the populist hills seeking support on this...but it really pertains only to a very select few...certainly not a "whole whack of babblers."
Don't serve what you can't return George.
Fine then. Do you have another description though? I'm plumb out.
Don't serve what you can't return George.
Don't comment if you can't support it with anything other than an unending display of one-liners, RP. (There must be a less-Confuscian response to this sniping from the sidelines). Out with it,RP. Your long-held, secret dislike of my philosophy/ideology/way of being, worldview). :) Or perhaps you can actually produce an instance of ad hominem attack that I initiated? Don't hang back. Let her rip.
You see how it goes, junebug. Are you really sure you want to enter the lists here? You must be much more circumspect in a progressive setting known for...it's progressiveness, I guess.
Dude, you attack labour, I bite back. Yes George, let's have teachers walk the plank, who's next on your list? Nice try with the sophistry.
You need to recognize who the real enemy is my friend. I have no agenda with you. I like a lot of what you post. Some other stuff goes right over my head. And then there's your right wing drift I take issue with. Apologies for not being verbose. I see what's happening around me. I don't theorize. I act for change.
I wouldn't come down so hard on him George. Compared to me, he may very well be the president of your fan club...which is subject to change of course, so long as RP is in a sharing mood if he's figured it differently.
I grew up oin a labour household, RP. Know the difference between shop-floor unionism and business. Actually quoted the new UAW head lately for his confession of labour's recent self-centeredness.
And those blessed teachers...walking off the plank there means falling onto very deep cushions... No I come from a teacher-oriented household, carried on into yeah the second generation. Clearly everything is from experience, not sophistry (using "clever but fallacious arguments ".
You really must try to control your hate!
I wouldn't come down so hard on him George. Compared to me, he may very well be the president of your fan club...which is subject to change of course, so long as RP is in a sharing mood if he's figured it differently.
Now that's sophistry, RP.
The lurker at work. Notice how it reduces to attack mode, junebug. Very typical.
Great. Nice work, all. Since junebug will doubtless risk coming back to voice anti-labour views that will get her banned, and you lot can't get above childish bickering, for her, yours and my saftey, I'm closing this thread. Don't continue it elsewhere.