Manitoba Premier Greg Selinger's planned trip to Israel
March 9, 2011 - 12:20am
Manitoba Premier Greg Selinger will be travelling to Israel in mid-October in search of deeper economic and cultural ties with Israel.
More info here: http://paulsgraham.ca/index.php/2010/10/06/manitoba-premier-supports-isr...
This trip is an affront to all who believe in human rights and social justice.
I've written him an open letter that you can find here:
http://paulsgraham.ca/index.php/2010/10/07/an-open-letter-to-manitoba-pr...
I hope folks will do something similar. Greg Selinger's email address is premier@leg.gov.mb.ca.
See this is why progressives have a hard time supporting the NDP.
Will he be moving there permanently? If so perhaps I support his decision, given his views.
Is it?
You know ALL progressives now? Of course not. So please stop expropriating my voice and position.
Thank you in advance
I don't see how he is expropriating your voice. The problem is real. I run into it all the time. Progressive people who will not support the NDP because of its apparent lack of principles on this issue. Committed people who do work on activist issues, of all kinds. This is particularly bad because a lot of younger people are really hooked into this issue, and it makes them pretty cynical.
Is it?
You know ALL progressives now?
Milo said "progressives," not "all progressives."
Get over yourself.
That said, "this" probably isn't the only reason so few progressives support the Nude Ems.
All this is quite, ah, interesting, folks. Ahem. Anyone want to suggest what it would take to get the NDP to get over its fear of confronting Israeli apartheid. The word makes them nervous. Care to suggest how they can get over it?
And those of you who think that a Manitoba NDP Government should be ashamed to be caught dead signing partnership agreements with Israel: have to written Mr. Selinger, yet? He's at premier@leg.gov.mb.ca.
Thank you, Paul - excellent initiative. I'll send my own note, though I think voters may have more influence. Mind you, aren't you getting ready to elect a mayor with the same views as Selinger about Israel? Keep your cyber-pencils sharpened.
Is it?
You know ALL progressives now?
Milo said "progressives," not "all progressives."
Get over yourself.
That said, "this" probably isn't the only reason so few progressives support the Nude Ems.
Hah! Get over yourself, dude. Your grammar policing rings hollow. And your mysogony rings true.
not trying to speak for anyone, just pointing out that the NDP, who often consider themselves the only real "progressive option" have been a lot less progressive as of late. Supporting Israel (although they refused to kick out libby) and abandoning their socialist positions? not exactly a party that i'd want to support.
Yes, the Libs and Cons do so much better on that file, eh?
How unfortunate for you, though not surprising especially seeing as how you just denied my stating that I felt he did.
He did not say some progressives, he made a blanket statement of "progressives".
Hell, if so called "progressives" want to vote for parties that are even less progressive and who have managed to put us into the state we are in, they are welcome to it. But they have only themselves to blame for the continued state of negative affairs, not the NDP.
His intent was clear. I feel you are being disingenuous.
Is it?
You know ALL progressives now?
Milo said "progressives," not "all progressives."
Get over yourself.
That said, "this" probably isn't the only reason so few progressives support the Nude Ems.
Hah! Get over yourself, dude. Your grammar policing rings hollow. And your mysogony rings true.
Yeah...OK.
So, like, don't Bogart that joint, man.
Selinger is home and Samuel Segev enthuses in the Winnipeg Free Press about how his visit "has been instantly transformed into a "Manitoba week" in Israel."
The article is at http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/opinion/westview/manitoba-strengthens-t....I encourage one and all to post comments on the article at the WFP.
Well unfortunately the WFP is an extreme bullhorn for Israel; it has always been pro-Israel but it became rabidly so once the Silver family bought it from the Globe chain. They have, for example, pushed Manji's turgid book dozens of times.
Unfortunately the local pro-Palestinian solidarity movement is weak; Can-PalNet for example does not even maintain its Wpg version of its website. Furthermore there is little connection between Arabs and Palestinians and those with solidarity with Palestinians. In the past 20 years there have been sporadic efforts by Palestians/Arabs that were unknown to other activists and no serious connections were created or maintained. Moverover, much of the Wpg Left has been covertly or overtly hostile to Palestinian concerns with much of the Left sabotaging any efforts at anything happening.
Moving this to central canada.
Damn, I didn't know that moderators had the ability to rewrite the constitution.
According to the Government of Canada, Manitoba is considered part of the Western division. I wonder if the Manitoba based babblers were informed that they have been annexed and are now Central Canadian Overlords?
[waves to Maysie]
ETA: of course it could have been moved to "the Prairies" forum...
From west to east, this region comprises four provinces:
* British Columbia
* Alberta
* Saskatchewan
* Manitoba
* All provinces were part of the North-West Territories and Ruperts Land. *
The latter three are collectively the Prairie Provinces, or simply the Prairies. British Columbia is also known as the Pacific Province, and in a more geographical sense is also referred to as the Pacific Slope and sometimes interchangeably with "the West Coast". Alberta and British Columbia are sometimes called "mountain provinces".
In some contexts, the term Western Canada may also include the territories of Yukon, Northwest Territories and Nunavut, although these are now more commonly grouped as the distinct region of Northern Canada.
Western Canada covers 2,908,433 square kilometres (1,122,955 square miles), or approximately 29% of Canada's land area. It is more than four times as large as Texas and more than twice as large as the United Kingdom, Ireland, France, Spain and Portugal combined.
The source of this division of regions is the division of seats in the Canadian Senate, as set out in the Canadian Constitution.
[some emphasis added, the quote is taken from the wiki article on Western Canada]
Makes me wonder about the way geography is taught in Overlord educational insitutions.
[waves to Maysie again]
I sent him a note along with this, which he will now be helping to support:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qpg2CLT9Fno&feature=player_embedded
remind, i think the problem is that many progressives just don't vote at all, since there are almost no parties that are speaking to them, rather than voting lib/con instead of ndp.
i may not agree with it, but that's the reality. Sure i've been telling my circle of friends to at least get out and vote green or ndp since it's certainly better than what we got but with our first past the post system and almost no hope in hell of the greens having ANY say in federal matters people often just decide not to vote at all. Even a "none of the above" on the ballot would get more people out to vote i think.
The problem, like i said earlier, is that the policies put forward by most parties simply don't speak to many people so they don't support them. The israel issue and the ndp is just one example.
I'm relatively naive about this issue so I'm asking sincerely and out of curiosity: Why is it necessarily a bad thing for Manitoba's NDP govt to work on co-operative projects with Israel to promote the arts and research? I realize that Israel's human rights record is problematic, from what I understand, but how is this worse than all the trade we do with countries like China or Saudi Arabia or the US for that matter, all of whom have committed major human rights violations, which may be worse in some cases, especially considering that a unilateral boycott by the MB govt is probably not going to make much of an impact, given how close the US or even federal Cdn govts are to Israel?
@Evening Star: Those are all good questions. In fact, many people who wanted to keep doing business with South Africa during the apartheid era asked those very same questions. Fortunately, over time, much of the world came to understand that doing business with a regime that segregated and persecuted people on the basis of ethnicity was terribly wrong.
It's true that the human rights records of the countries you mention leave lots to be desired. There may be an argument for boycotting them; there may not. It's open to debate.
However, the boycott, divestment and sanctions campaign against Israel that is gaining strength around the world makes sense because:
1. It is a nonviolent strategy that has been put forward by Palestinian civil society as a means of forcing Israel to negotiate honestly with Palestine. Check this out for more info: http://bdsmovement.net/?q=node/126#intro
2. Israel has installed a system of apartheid which forces Palestinians onto ever shrinking parcels of land and where any resistence is met with violence, imprisonment and torture. These actions are not merely "problematic" violations of human rights; they are calculated, systematic and brutal.
3. Palestinians are denied access to the basic necessities of life; almost 2 years after "operation Cast Lead," which left Gaza destroyed and 1600 people dead, the inhabitants eke out a meager existence; Israel will not allow them to import what they need to rebuild.
If the Manitoba government were to sever its ties to the State of Israel it would not be unilateral; more and more local governments are joining the BDS movement. But it would be a tremendous boost for the cause of Palestinian justice. Coming from a Canadian provincial government, it would have a profound political impact on the Israelis and would encourage other western governments to take similar measures.
I'm sure there are many other reasons why we should be pushing the BDS movement in our various communities. Don't hold back out there.
Part of what differentiates Israel from those other countries is that there is a gallingly huge ediface of propaganda machinery supporting Israel as well as both government and private support internally from Canada to Israel. Nobody disputes the abuses about Saudi Arabia or China. Our media has frequently mentioned what is wrong with SA and China but not only suppress basically factually correct information about Israel but also launches attacks against Palestinians and pro-Palestinian solidarity.
Furthermore, academics and activists who are pro-Palestinian are harassed by groups such as Campus Watch or private investigators hired by B'Nai B'rith. Moreover, we have seen the emergence of Christian Zionists (who are simutaneously anti-Semitic and fervently pro-Israel) which are raising money for Israel and also harassing pro-Palestinian activists.
To be in solidarity with Palestine while living in North America is to be buried alive with several layers of socially-constructed plexiglass. To mention one particular fact or anecdote related to the occupation is to be at the very bottom of the Tower of Babel, nobody will recognize or understand one thing at all.
BTW PSG I could not get a post on the WFP website. Either I came too late or they smelled a campaign or they did not like me referring to the recent 'only Ashkanazi are Jews' demonstration that took place recently in Israel (I did not word it that way). Or maybe because I mentioned Norman Finklestein. Oh well. You might want to check out the most recent Uniter which has an article on the effort to start Students Against Israeli Apartheid chapter there. Note how the charge that posters at the U of M last year was anti-semitic has no clarification or rebuttal.
http://uniter.ca/view/5028/
Yves Engler provides some much needed analysis of the Manitoba delegation's Israeli tour and the role played by the Jewish National Fund Canada. You can find this new article at http://www.peacealliancewinnipeg.ca/2010/11/manitobas-connection-to-isra...
Every Canadian who opposes racism should be embarrassed, and J.S. Woodsworth, the Winnipeg-based founder of Canada's Co-operative Commonwealth Federation, which eventually became the NDP, must be turning in his grave.
The NDP premier of Manitoba, Greg Selinger, and two of his ministers recently visited Israel. Among other things, the official delegation strengthened the longtime "progressive" government's ties to the Jewish National Fund (JNF).
The province and JNF signed an accord to jointly develop two bird conservation sites, while Manitoba water stewardship minister Christine Melnick spoke at the opening ceremony for a park built in Jaffa by the JNF, the Tel Aviv Foundation and Manitoba-Israel Shared Values Roundtable. During the trip, the JNF's president for the prairies, Mel Lazerek, was also appointed Manitoba's special representative to Israel for economic and community relations.
Manitoba's ties to this openly discriminatory institution are shocking, but also part of a decades-old pro-Israel policy of the NDP that must be challenged by real progressives.
– rabble.ca [emphasis added]
@ bagkitty post #17:
I too wonder why rabble chooses to designate Manitoba as a central Canada province. My own pet theory is that they are all hardcore Risk players who took some of their cues from the Risk playing board, where Manitoba is featured as part of Central Canada. Call it a lack of imagination on the part of rabble.
On another note, placing Manitoba in Central Canada ensures Manitoba topics are drowned out amidst the plethora of Ontario/Quebec threads.
People can only read one thread at a time.
The idea that a thread can be drowned out by any other threads is absurd.
@ bagkitty post #17:
I too wonder why rabble chooses to designate Manitoba as a central Canada province. My own pet theory is that they are all hardcore Risk players who took some of their cues from the Risk playing board, where Manitoba is featured as part of Central Canada. Call it a lack of imagination on the part of rabble.
On another note, placing Manitoba in Central Canada ensures Manitoba topics are drowned out amidst the plethora of Ontario/Quebec threads.
Actually the real question is why Ontario and Quebec are considered central Canada, since the longitudinal centre is just east of Winnipeg. Though I suppose even stranger is how the Bombers are considered an eastern team.
THen again, in our province Southend is way up north, and Eastend is out west near the Alberta border, and North Portal is down south on the U.S. border, and West End is practically in Manitoba.
(edit)
Though I expect if we had people scratching their heads wondering why they had to look for Toronto news in an "eastern Canada" thread (which is what easterners are to us) there might be a bit more of a fuss.
The northwest Ontarians really have my sympathy. I know every few years some people there start talking about a referendum. THey should just go ahead and join Manitoba.
Event coming up for those of you in Winnipeg "The Manitoba NDP, The Left, and Canadian support for Israel": http://rabble.ca/whatsup/manitoba-ndp-left-and-canadian-support-israel-0
sounds like a good one genstrike - if there's video taken/posted let us know. The JDL Canada-EDL-Tea Party links should also be raised there.
I too wonder why rabble chooses to designate Manitoba as a central Canada province.
What I find great is that it appears Saskatchewan has its own forum, "the Prairies", since Manitoba is in Central Canada and BC and Alberta are in the West. As a progressive I find it disheartening that the left at the Centre of the Universe has bought the right wing mime that BC and Alberta are the same political culture and not separate entities with very different political cultures. The BC Liberals have spent a decade promoting the idea of the two provinces being right wing bastions against the socialists and here on babble that view is mirrored in the forums.
sounds like a good one genstrike - if there's video taken/posted let us know. The JDL Canada-EDL-Tea Party links should also be raised there.
I hear there's going to be video up on youtube of it - I'll post it when I get the link sent to me.
I think the JDL-EDL links are important, but it's a little trickier to talk about in Winnipeg as Winnipeg doesn't have an active JDL chapter, or anything similar. The more "official" Zionist organizations seem to have enough power and enough connections to politicians and the media to render this kind of stupid thuggery unneccessary (although they couldn't stop IAW...)
As a progressive I find it disheartening that the left at the Centre of the Universe has bought the right wing mime [sic] that BC and Alberta are the same political culture and not separate entities with very different political cultures.
Um, yeah. Just like we have bought the meme that Ontario and Quebec (i.e. "Central Canada") are the same political culture!
On babble the provinces are grouped by geography, not political culture. Either get over it or arrange to move your province somewhere else.
Event coming up for those of you in Winnipeg "The Manitoba NDP, The Left, and Canadian support for Israel": http://rabble.ca/whatsup/manitoba-ndp-left-and-canadian-support-israel-0
Uh does this link lead to anything other than the current events listing for anybody else?
I see other events listed for Winnipeg but not the one described.
On babble the provinces are grouped by geography, not political culture. Either get over it or arrange to move your province somewhere else.
Yes geographicaly! So neither Alberta nor Manitoba is a Prairie province. As for the last little uncalled snipe. Fuck off and get over yourself.
Uncalled for? After your thoroughly imaginary scenario about how the "left at the Centre of the Universe" has bought into a right-wing meme, I'm not allowed to point out that you're full of shit?
Gee M. Spector if you cannot tell the difference between generalized sarcasm and a personal direct insult aimed at one poster there is little I can say in response. Try to work on that sense of humour it will keep your blood pressure down.
Well that's all as clear as mud.
Speaking of which, there's more muskeg and shield than there is prairie in Saskatchewan, and I've never seen any part of it that is as flat as the Red River Valley.
And speaking of "central" canada, is Alberta that much closer to the west coast than Ontario is to the east? I know it's not closer than Quebec is. For that matter, maybe Ontario should be international, seeing as it is right down there with California.
I think the main reason why we switched to east, west and Central is because if we stuck with the original "upper" and "lower", ontario would just find itself bumped way down the pile.
Event coming up for those of you in Winnipeg "The Manitoba NDP, The Left, and Canadian support for Israel": http://rabble.ca/whatsup/manitoba-ndp-left-and-canadian-support-israel-0
Uh does this link lead to anything other than the current events listing for anybody else?
I see other events listed for Winnipeg but not the one described.
Here is a working link for the particular event.
Event coming up for those of you in Winnipeg "The Manitoba NDP, The Left, and Canadian support for Israel": http://rabble.ca/whatsup/manitoba-ndp-left-and-canadian-support-israel-0
Uh does this link lead to anything other than the current events listing for anybody else?
I see other events listed for Winnipeg but not the one described.
Okay, I posted this event a couple days ago. Then I looked for the link to day and I couldn't find it. So I figured I must have screwed it up and not hit submit or something. So, I made the event again. Now, it is gone again.
What's the deal?
Okay, posted the event again: http://rabble.ca/whatsup/manitoba-ndp-left-and-canadian-support-israel-0
Somehow I don't think rabble wants to list your event.
Somehow I don't think rabble wants to list your event.
I'm trying not to jump to conclusions... but it's getting hard not to.
Well....seeing as how many people have come here to babble complaining of glitches with listing events, I personally would land on the side of technical glitches, as opposed to obliquely accusing rabble of censorship of this event.
I wonder why that is? I think there are those who simply don't realize that there is a colder war on. And then I think there are those who do realize its a colder war but don't care and are simply anti-NDP whatever the weather. Lots of options to choose from here.
Lots of options to choose from, for sure.
Well....seeing as how many people have come here to babble complaining of glitches with listing events, I personally would land on the side of technical glitches, as opposed to obliquely accusing rabble of censorship of this event.
Well, I've sent a message to rabble using the "contact us" form and am awaiting a response. I'm hoping it's a technical glitch, but I can't help but get suspicious seeing how I've tried multiple times now and the events page seems to be working for so many other people, as evidenced by all the other events up.
Can anyone access the event? I seem to be able to when I'm logged in, but not when I'm logged out. Can other babblers see it? And it doesn't appear in the listings.
Given Kim's views on Palestine I think your concern is misplaced.
I don't see it in past or current events. Are you sure you created an event? Did it preview okay? Did it just not give you any warnings or messages otherwise indicating that something was amiss?
No, no warnings or anything. I can see the event if I'm logged in and I go directly to it, but it seems like otherwise it's not appearing in the event listings and anyone else who tries gets "Access Denied"
And it does say that I need to be logged-in to access the page. I'm logged-in but not able to access.
Are you able to cancel or delete the event and try creating it again?
I went to the U of W but there were no posters inside to point where to go. The way the U of W signs its classroom doors is confusing; someone should have made the effort to have posters/signs with the directions. Seemed like a promising topic but I never found the room. That building has multiple floors and multiple hallways on each floor. Waster afternoon, grrr.
I wonder if any Canadian group might try this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8lsPIsdgGI
Event video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZE7ZPvDrvg
Back in January I recorded a presentation entitled "The Manitoba NDP, the Left and Canadian Support for Israel" featuring Winnipeg activist Brian Latour and Montreal based writer/journalist/and-all-around-trouble-maker, Yves Engler. Here it is. As always, comments from all perspectives are welcomed.
http://paulsgraham.ca/index.php/2011/02/28/new-video-the-manitoba-ndp-th...
Thanks, PSG! This appears to be the exact same video that genstrike linked to less than two hours earlier.
@M. Spector: OMG!! It's gone viral!!
Here's hoping!
I hope you lefties aren't working for the conservative party in Manitoba. You think Manitoba has problems now. Just wait til you get another bunch of Philmon crooks running things into the ground. Then you'll be sorry. (_8(|) doh!
Uh the current leader of the PC's (and they are still PC's provincially) is such a lightweight he makes Filmon seem brilliant in retrospect. Someone should steal two cars and leave them in front of McFayden's house and Sam Katz's house blaring Bronski Beat's Smalltown Boy or George Michael's Praying For Time real, real loud.
Thanks to GenStrike and PSG for the links. Let us hope more people see them.
@ Fidel: The day the Tories start criticising the NDP for being pro-Zionist is some time off, methinks. If the Left doesn't call the NDP out on its bad behavior, who do you think should?
I thought Fidel was joking but maybe not. Brian Latour does a good job of explaining how bad the NDP are.
Sure, why doesn't the Man-NDP stop fooling around and simply create socialism in one province? What's stopping them besides 35 years of top-down federal neoliberalism perpetrated on all Canadian provinces?
I think Manitoba has one of the lowest costs of living in the country. You've got some of the lowest unemployment rates in the country through this latest ideologically driven meltdown of western world economies, and some of the lowest post secondary costs after tax rebates are realized. If it wasn't for the black flies and a lot of flat lands, you'd prolly have more young Ontarians and northern industries fleeing the lousy economy here for greener pastures in Manitoba than any other province. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth as they say. It could be worse - you could have McGuinty or Campbell, or another bunch of Filmon style crooks wanting to sell off ManHydro to rich friends of the party. Then all you'll be left with is a black fly infested swamp where you can't afford to live.
I have lived here all my life. There is no discernible difference whether either party is in power. The NDP helped build the MTS Centre; public funds for private profit. They succeeded where P/Filmon failed.
The union free MTS Centre in which public funds subsidize private profit I might add.
MTS? Didn't the conservatives make tidy commissions on that one pawning it off to well heeled friends of the party? The sabotage of MTS, Manitoba's most profitable utility, ah yes I remember now. You've got to hand it to the crooks. They can see dollar signs when it comes to anything owned by the taxpayers. Real business savvy they are. Slicker'n snake's bellys in wagon ruts during a downpour. Don't vote NDP - you'll get more of the same where Filmon and crooks left off and freezing in the dark if the Tories they have their way. Dealing away the family jewels and silverware is progress as far the crooked bastards are concerned. Liberals no better.
Compared to other provinces, Manitoba is the socialist motherland (which ain't sayin' much). That said, the focus of this thread has to do with the Manitoba NDP Government's shameful (and shameless) promotion of cultural, commercial and political relations with the apartheid state of Israel.
However one chooses to vote (or not) in the next election, it is simply wrong to look the other way when an NDP government -- which allegedly stands for social justice -- behaves as it does regarding Israel (cheerleading) and Israel's critics (attacking).
How can anyone expect for one moment that the NDP will improve if it is not held accountable. It is not enough to trumpet its achievements and hope the other stuff will go away.
Yes, Paul, you are correct and sorry for the thread sway. The issue here is that the NDP is just as bad as the Conservatives for a slavish devotion to the local Zionist element and for Israel. Maybe genstrike can convince Brian Latour to join rabble.ca so we can get more of his insight. The more of his insight the better, being he is a former NDP'er and he discusses Manitoba specifically.
So I think what you're saying there is no good reason to replace the NDP with conservatives. Even worse, the Manitoba conservatives' federal cousins in Ottawa fully support whatever it is Uncle Sam tells them to, whether it's a right wing version of Zionism in Israel or signing free trade deals with Uncle Sam's oppressive death squad proxies in Colombia who make sport of murdering union leaders and social activists.
And I'll bet I can come up with many more foreign policy reasons for not inadvertently installing Tories or Liberals in Ottawa or Queen's Parks. And that's in addition to their bad economic policies affecting everything from persistent poverty in Canada to those parties working to undermine the Canadian economy in favour of banks and foreign corporate interests.
Well I think you should know that because of our incredibly stupid FPTP electoral system, not voting tends to be counted as a show of support for the ruling party in government. Either way you might disagree with the provincial governments views on what is a federal matter of foreign policy. But I always tend to vote for the party with the best foreign policy federally not provincially. Vote for the best party provincially when it comes to provincial matters. That's my general rule of thumb when it comes to voting, and I never let a single issue determine how I will vote because the very idea of not weighing the total packages and alternatives in both hands is absurd to me.
cue Hinterland Who's Who music ...
The orange-throated dipper booby, while mostly harmless to the Bald Eagle and the other predators of the forest, shows a remarkable ability to distract its rivals with ventriloquist-like calls out of nowhere. Unfortunately, the calls sow confusion among all the animals of the forest and make the task of the large predators much easier ...
cue music again ...
How about the Any reason will do not to vote NDP I'm not very particular, I'll even be glad for the Liberals, Tories same old stories in selling out every principle I ever thought I had, theme music? (cue us some stale old line party merengue) I wonder what the Manitoba NDP's policy is on relations with Tuvalu? I just think we should consider the widest range of provincial government responsibilities.
So I think what you're saying there is no good reason to replace the NDP with conservatives. Even worse, the Manitoba conservatives' federal cousins in Ottawa fully support whatever it is Uncle Sam tells them to, whether it's a right wing version of Zionism in Israel or signing free trade deals with Uncle Sam's oppressive death squad proxies in Colombia who make sport of murdering union leaders and social activists.
I actually was focusing on how the NDP's policy toward Israel is as bad as the others, which is related to the thread. You are saying the NDP is a better vote option (I do not agree) but that is a different topic. If Manitoba does trade deals, agreements with other entities outside of Canada, then that is a foreign policy decision even if at the provinical level. So why can we not hold the provincial NDP accountable for a policy that it has, making agreements, promoting Israel?
Yes, the provincial NDP in Manitoba also has, with past Premier Doer, noisily played the nauseus "Support the Troops" card during previous provincial elections. Why not let the Provincial Conservatives raise the issue and jump on them for mixing apples and oranges (provincial and federal issues) when it comes up? Why? Because it was probably seen as electorally prudent. And that's all that matters as anti-war policy is easily jettisoned.
Incidently, the retiring Israeli diplomat Ilan Baruch has called what the leading political parties (Cons, Libs, and NDP) in English Canada do - in characterizing criticism of the Israeli apartheid regime as Anti-Semitism - as simplistic and provincial. It was a remarkable comment coming from a retiring diplomat who left his post early because he couldn't stomach the BS.
And here's another federal issue for the let's get the NDP out of Manitoba thread. You're living in a Northern Puerto Rico with some pipelines and where even the fuckin' Polar bears are homeless. What's afta NAFTA?
They're short of drinking water in Israel. Maybe if they had more they'd ease up on the fascism and share more with Palestinians. Clean water and green energy sources should be basic human rights for all. I don't really see a connection between this and propping up Israeli military with billions of US dollars in aid and military sales every year, like NAFTA feds have done both sides of the border.
They're short of drinking water in Israel. Maybe if they had more they'd ease up on the fascism and share more with Palestinians.
Clearly, no straw is too small to grasp at when desperately trying to defend the indefensible. Now it seems the Israelis are really only trying to conserve water when they kill Palestinians and steal their land.
And the idea that this is a "get the NDP out of Manitoba" thread is yours alone.
Yes it's indefensible. Because where would the US-backed Israeli military dictatorship be today without the Manitoba NDP propping them up? Winnipeg is KAOS headquarters for sure.
Anyone who visits Israel is guilty of supporting the continuing genocide of the Palestinian people by Zionist facsists. Every single $ they spend in Israel helps buy ammunition for Zionist soldiers. The end result is a dead Palestinian baby.
Anyone who visits Israel is guilty of supporting the continuing genocide of the Palestinian people by Zionist facsists. Every single $ they spend in Israel helps buy ammunition for Zionist soldiers. The end result is a dead Palestinian baby.
NDP babykillers!! Selinger the kiss of death!!
It's like I said before, even the fuckin' Polar bears are homeless in our Northern Puerto Rico. And it's all the NDP's fault!!! I think I need some rolly eyes about now. Or how about that broken record emoticon we used to have? C'mon!
Why would anyone refer to the situation as apartheid? Black South Africans were needed by the white minority to work for next to nothing. Very close to slave wages, and then shipped back to the townships by curfew.
OTOH, the Israelis haven't needed Palestinian labour in great numbers for a long time. Not since the influx of cheap labour from Asia. Israeli policies toward Palestinians is closer to that of extermination. Palestinians don't have many things which even black South Africans had to sustain body and soul. Call it what it is, a US-backed fascist regime guilty of genocide. And Israel is only one of dozens of US-backed military dictatorships and kleptocracies, narco states etc. Israel is a drop in the bucket compared to what is a sea of imperialist oppression and crimes against humanity.
Noam Chomsky on boycotts:
You mean a U.S.-backed, Manitoba NDP-backed, fascist regime guilty of genocide.
You mean a U.S.-backed, Manitoba NDP-backed, fascist regime guilty of genocide.
Yes. Why are people affraid to call it what it is?
Fidel the different legal status of Israeli Jews versus other Israelis/those under occupation is well documented. Palestinians have no right under Israeli law to return to the land stolen from them at the barrel of a gun, but Jews anywhere in the world have automatic rights in this regard. The list is as long as your arm. The Israelis may have laws that seem to provide for equality but their "exceptions" turn this into its opposite. In a thousand ways, like preventing medical patients from getting to the doctor, or having exclusive roads, etc., the Israeli regime carries out its racist and bigoted policies of ethnic cleansing. Apartheid sums it up perfectly. Even those who were intimately familiar with the SA apartheid regime - those who were in the leadership of the struggle against that odious regime (that has now disappeared never to return) - use the term to describe the Israeli regime. The least amount of effort on your part could confirm that.
The restrictions on Palestine's use of water would be there whether Israel is short of water or not. The deprivations imposed on Palestine are about the 'demographic problem' and dehydrating Palestinian babies to death in certain sectors is one solution. One of the biggest deprivations Palestinians face is just ordinary sleep. Israel jets do Mach II 60 metres above the Occupied Territories. That 'sound cannon' you saw at the G20 police riot was first developed in Israel. Israeli troops toss compression grenades while they do their rounds; they set their watches at various intervals so the grenades are never set off to a particular pace and thereby being more disruptive to sleep. IDF also sets off smaller dummy shotgun cannons (similar to those used at airports to scare off birds). Heart palpitations due to sleep deprivation in Palestinian babies is exponentially higher than anywhere else in the world; when Hamas was first elected one of the first things they did was kick out a team of medical researchers from an EU committee because they felt children were being used as lab rats. The Western media just mentioned a team of doctors being kicked out, never explaining that they were there only doing research as opposed to providing actual help. I am not counting on the Manitoba NDP to use their economic ties with Israel to help with this problem nor are any measures to help Israel steal more water going to trickle down to occupied Palestine.
I agree with Chomsky. In some ways it's worse than apartheid and some ways not. But the moral legitimacy of boycotts is in question. Ending apartheid in SA did nothing to end the Anglo-American backed oppression in dozens of other countries. There is no abatement at the source of the problem. Our stoogeacracy in Ottawa continues to provide a colonial extractive economy for the vicious empire and contributing to the enabling of that country's unsustainable energy policies at home.
Boycotts invariably end up harming those they are not intended to. The former USSR, Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq are good examples of how political interference in other countries is not morally justifiable on a number of levels. I can not support boycotts for any reasons unless they are meant to get at the heart of the problem. And even then I would have difficulty supprting the levelling of hardships on the American people who are largely innocent of the crimes of the state. There is a way though that would be completely in line with free market mechanisms that even the empire and its people would have to agree with.
Canada's responsibility to the rest of the world is to help America curb its voracious appetite for cheap Canadian fossil fuels. This bs with bombing and invading energy-rich countries is all because the Yanks have no sustainable long term national energy policies. This must change. WE are very close to being at the edge of the precipice.
Yes it's indefensible. Because where would the US-backed Israeli military dictatorship be today without the Manitoba NDP propping them up? Winnipeg is KAOS headquarters for sure.
How is this a response to what M Spector said? You said that somehow Israel might share water with Palestinians; Spector pointed out that Israel would still withhold water no matter what and then you go back to sarcastically about the Manitoba NDP and that its support for Israel is somehow irrelevant. You are being evasive here - do you really believe Israel would share water with the Palestinians?
The MB NDP's support for Israel is not irrelevant; that fact that is there is tacit support from the MB NDP for everything Israel does. MB's relationship with Israel normalizes systems and behaviors that are not acceptable. A boycott that puts more pressure on Israel and creates more space to talk about the realities of the Occupation is a good idea. No, not all boycotts are well-planned or well-positioned but a boycott of Israel in the face of such absolute deprivation is necessary. So is a confrontation with the North American media for its one-sided, pro-Israeli, pro-Zionnist portrayal of all events.
@ Fidel: The day the Tories start criticising the NDP for being pro-Zionist is some time off, methinks. If the Left doesn't call the NDP out on its bad behavior, who do you think should?
Actually Fidel you never answered the question above either? Are you saying we should be silent about what the Manitoba NDP gov't does with Israel? Why should we be not able to use this situation to draw attention to what Israel really is and what it actually does behind the chimera of pro-Israeli media coverage?
I don't think Manitoba's NDP should be immune to criticism. But suggesting that tiny Manitoba is responsible for propping up what is a US-backed fascist state thousands of miles away from the prairies, I think, is an extreme point of view and totally innaccurate. Just putting things in perspective is all. The anti-NDP rhetoric tends to distort things in general I find. I've read things that would lead us to believe the NDP are responsible for everything from neoliberalism in Canada to them propping up Uncle Sam's various client states around the world however weak the connection. I find criticisms of provincial NDPs can be anywhere from somewhat vaguely true to completely ridiculous at times.
Judith Butler to Speak at Israeli Apartheid Week in Toronto
http://rabble.ca/news/2011/03/judith-butler-speak-israeli-apartheid-week...
"The subject of Butler's Toronto lecture will be the academic and cultural boycott of Israel. Launched in 2005 as part of the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) call signed by over 170 Palestinian and civil society organizations, the growing international boycott campaing represents, for Butler, A CRUCIAL MEANS OF RESISTANCE TO ONGOING ISRAELI STATE VIOLENCE AND OCCUPATION.
The academic and cultural boycotts act AS A DIRECT CHALLENGE TO INSTITUTIONS THAT CONTRIBUTE TO THE NORMALIZATION OF THE OCCUPATION, FORCING THEM TO NOT ONLY ADDRESS ISRAEL`S CONSTANT VIOLATION OF INTERNATIONAL LAW BUT ALSO END THEIR COMPLICITY IN THESE CRIMES IN THE PROCESS.
We can think of it as a sort of `passive complicity`writes Butler in her Haàretz interview. `To work on the side of the problem of the occupation is to participate in its normalization. And the way that normalization works is to efface or distort that reality in the public discourse. As a result,` she concludes, NEUTRALITY IS NOT AN OPTION.
Butler insists that there is no one simple approach to heeding teh boycott call, but whatever the tactic, it must oppose the process of normalization and bring to light the `basic principles and injustice at stake. There are many ways to articulate those principles, and this is where intellectuals are doubtless under a political obligation to become innovative, to use the cultural means at our disposal to make whatever interventions we can.``
The NDP can not and should not be defended or excluded from the BDS call - especially given what is at stake for so many and its continuing pretension at representing `progressive` politics in Canada. Defending the indefensible because it is no difference party standard operating procedure, just doesn`t cut it in this case.
I don't think Manitoba's NDP should be immune to criticism.
Except that every time someone criticizes them you are quick to suggest that the critics prefer the Liberals or the Conservatives, which is almost never the case.
Not only that, but you invent the most outrageous arguments to "justify" that which is being criticized — arguments that would never be accepted by reasonable progressives if offered to justify similar conduct or positions taken by Lib/Con governments.
But suggesting that tiny Manitoba is responsible for propping up what is a US-backed fascist state thousands of miles away from the prairies, I think, is an extreme point of view and totally inaccurate.
Yes, it is an extreme point of view, and perhaps that's why nobody has said Manitoba is "propping up" Israel. Israel will manage just fine with or without Manitoba's support.
The point is not so much what effect the Manitoba NDP position has on Israel (i.e. negligible), as what effect it has on the NDP's own reputation for defending human rights around the world, as well as what effect it has on the political consciousness of the citizens of Manitoba, who tend to pay attention to what the provincial government does and says. When Manitobans see their social-democratic government cosying up to apartheid (or, if you prefer, "fascist") Israel and openly defying the international BDS movement launched by the Palestinians themselves (not by some radical eggheads in a backroom in Toronto) it undermines public solidarity with the beleaguered Palestinians and sets a bad example for civil society and for other governments.
The NDP is not "responsible" for neoliberalism, but it's not wrong to say that it is all too quick to fall in line with the neoliberal consensus on many issues — Israel being just one of them.
I don't think Manitoba's NDP should be immune to criticism.
Except that every time someone criticizes them you are quick to suggest that the critics prefer the Liberals or the Conservatives, which is almost never the case.
It's FPTP rules in the Northern Puerto Rico. They will necessarily have pro Israeli conservatives in Manitoba if not the NDP. And then both levels of government are pro-USA and therefore pro Israeli and pro whatever Uncle Sam instructs the Northern Puerto Rico. Provincial governments have very little control over the national agenda and national economy since the 1980s and even before that begining in 1975 when the neoliberal agenda first got underway in Ottawa.
What else can they do at the provincial level WRT provincial economies? This is not Canada the way it was in Tommy Douglas' time. Things have changed.
"There Is No Alternative" - Margaret Thatcher.
NDP = No Difference Party
"There Is No Alternative" - Margaret Thatcher.
Would that have been Margaret Thatcher MP for Finchley, or perhaps "premier of Greater London", or was it Maggie Thatcher, first female prime minister of the U.K., a national level leader whose government had control of national purse strings and national policy?
Put another way, if Hugo Chavez were to suddenly show up in our fair land and decided he wants to nationalise the oil, natural gas, electrics, wood industry, steel mills, banking and money, MTS, daycare, abrogate the CANADA-ISRAEL FTA etc, would you advise him to apply for the job of premier of Manitoba, which is basically a large moose preserve with a dwindling population of homeless polar bears?
Question: How would you go about creating socialism in one province under the neoliberal scheme of things in our Northern Puerto Rico?
There is no alternative as long as Canadians have to endure this unbroken succession of colonial administrativeships running things into the ground in Ottawa.
Liberal, Tory, it's the same old story in the colonial outpost of Ottawa.
Fidel likes to pretend that there's some constitutional impediment to a Canadian provincial government agreeing to abide by the international boycott of Israel. He thinks the government of Manitoba is bound by law and economics to render aid and assistance to any murderous foreign regime (even a "genocidal" one, as Fidel himself has characterized Israel) who asks.
Not even the cynical pro-Zionist hacks who run the Manitoba government would ever try to make that feeble argument.
(Apologies if I've offended any babblers who are feeble or who work with the feeble.)
Fidel likes to pretend that there's some constitutional impediment to a Canadian provincial government agreeing to abide by the international boycott of Israel. He thinks the government of Manitoba is bound by law and economics to render aid and assistance to any murderous foreign regime (even a "genocidal" one, as Fidel himself has characterized Israel) who asks.
Not even the cynical pro-Zionist hacks who run the Manitoba government would ever try to make that feeble argument.
(Apologies if I've offended any babblers who are feeble or who work with the feeble.)
To be fair, Fidel likes to pretend that there is some constitutional impediment to the NDP doing anything remotely progressive. It makes it a lot easier to argue for uncritical support for the NDP when the bar is lowered to subterranean levels.
Although, I question to what extent it is "any murderous foreign regime who asks" and to what extent it is "any murderous foreign regime that we can possibly offer it to." It seems to me that the impetus for these initiatives likely came more from the Manitoba side than the Israel side.
Gotta get that fourth party out of Ottawa, and re-install Filmon's crooks in Winnipeg. Apparently Manitobans are paying far too little for hydro. They should pay more, and it all boils down to the NDP sending WMD to Israel and billions of dollars in aid every year. Oh wait? That's not even close to reality.
Everything will be made right again. There will be no more tuition fees in Manitoba, and Palestinians will finally be free of US-Ottawa backed oppression. Oh wait? Wrong again! Just keep muttering Maggie's motto to yourselves. You'll make about as much sense.
Here's another cute motto: Liberal, Tory, it's the same old story. We know the rules to the dirty FPTP game as well as them that offer no alternatives whilst preaching from the shadows.
Gotta get that fourth party out of Ottawa, and re-install Filmon's crooks in Winnipeg. Apparently Manitobans are paying far too little for hydro. They should pay more, and it all boils down to the NDP sending WMD to Israel and billions of dollars in aid every year. Oh wait? That's not even close to reality.
Everything will be made right again. There will be no more tuition fees in Manitoba, and Palestinians will finally be free of US-Ottawa backed oppression. Oh wait? Wrong again! Just keep muttering Maggie's motto to yourselves. You'll make about as much sense.
Here's another cute motto: Liberal, Tory, it's the same old story. We know the rules to the dirty FPTP game as well as them that offer no alternatives whilst preaching from the shadows.
Once again, you are attacking an argument that nobody is making. The issue is how the MB NDP behaves and they have not only made a small contribution to helping Israel develop, they have outright attempted to censor criticism of Israel.
Did you watch the video link that both genstrike and PSG put up? Brian Latour talks about those efforts there.
Uh genstrike, when I go to the Facebook page for CanPalNet Winnipeg it does not let me highlight on the poster to read it. Is there anywhere else on the Net where the poster can be looked at more closely?
Well that's strangem because some comments above looked a lot like the usually ridiculous anti-NDP rhetoric concerning the government of a small prairie province. The feds signed an FTA with Israel. Because ever since the Mulroney-baloney-or-rama and the little guy-strangler from Shawinigan, Provincial governments all have to make nice with private enterprise and seek out business deals with whatever other country isn't yet bankrupted by the neoliberal ideology. Unless these Tories have suddenly decided to reverse the federal cutbacks to transfers to the tune of tens of billions of dollars since 1993-95, I don't see how provinces can afford to be very choosey in who they deal with.
Where are progressives' proposals for replacing the Manitoba-Israel collaboration on green energy and clean drinking water projects? I don't think the Harpers have anything up their sleeves to save the environment or solve the world's drinking water shortage. That leaves progressives to come up with alternatives to water shortages and a globalized capitalist economy designed around energy consumption of dead plants, as if they had no idea that market ideology can not replace what is bound to run out sooner or later.
And remember, we still have guarantee 60% of Canadian energy production to vicious empire central south of us, or that same country propping-up Israeli apartheid to the tune of billions of dollars in aid and all manner of weoponry every year.
"The alternative" is to move to a country without medicare and where there is no NDP and where 100% neoliberal ideology is bankrupting state economies even worse than Ontario and BC and laying waste to Alberta.
Well that's strangem because some comments above looked a lot like the usually ridiculous anti-NDP rhetoric concerning the government of a small prairie province. The feds signed an FTA with Israel. Because ever since the Mulroney-baloney-or-rama and the little guy-strangler from Shawinigan, Provincial governments all have to make nice with private enterprise and seek out business deals with whatever other country isn't yet bankrupted by the neoliberal ideology. Unless these Tories have suddenly decided to reverse the federal cutbacks to transfers to the tune of tens of billions of dollars since 1993-95, I don't see how provinces can afford to be very choosey in who they deal with.
Where are progressives' proposals for replacing the Manitoba-Israel collaboration on green energy and clean drinking water projects? I don't think the Harpers have anything up their sleeves to save the environment or solve the world's drinking water shortage. That leaves progressives to come up with alternatives to water shortages and a globalized capitalist economy designed around energy consumption of dead plants, as if they had no idea that market ideology can not replace what is bound to run out sooner or later.
And remember, we still have guarantee 60% of Canadian energy production to vicious empire central south of us, or that same country propping-up Israeli apartheid to the tune of billions of dollars in aid and all manner of weoponry every year.
"The alternative" is to move to a country without medicare and where there is no NDP and where 100% neoliberal ideology is bankrupting state economies even worse than Ontario and BC and laying waste to Alberta.
Uh we do not actually know these are truly 'green' projects; they are being labelled as such by their promoters. Many of the de-salinization projects in the Middle East are resource wasteful.
Did the federal NDP actually make major criticisms of Canada-Israel pact at the time?
Does the pact actually force the provinical NDP to label any criticism of Israel as 'anti-semitic?'
The alternative is to speak of the NDP as it actually is and not to pretend otherwise.
And this is all within the context of first past the post in our Northern Puerto Rico. The realistic alternative to the NDP are the pro Israeli, pro USsA conservatives in Manitoba, federal ReformaTories and pro Israeli, pro USsA Libranos and Liebrals. So carry on holding the NDPs feet to your golden FPTP standard. It will surely help out Palestinians under siege, Colombian trade unionists and social activists on government black lists, Mexican activists and Honduran children sitting in jail, and Haitians living in a country pregnant with revolution for more than 100 years and so on and so on around the world. Carry on in search of your perfect revolution, that one which will never happen. Choose wisely, o' rhetorical anti-NDPers. The world will not be falling into your laps anytime soon.
When an Israeli diplomat, Ilan Baruch, retiring early in disgust with his own government, ridicules this view - a view that is shared by the NDP, Liberal and Conservatives alike I might add - as simplistic, provincial and artificial and thereby takes a view on the left of all three political parties ... then we know that those political parties are completely out of touch with reality on this issue. They are all aping the pro-colonial, pro-imperialist position.
The only point in the NDPs favour here is that they are as stupid and evil and the Liberals and Conservatives on this issue. Here is yet another proof of the worthless "choice" that voters are often given. They're all bad.
Closing for length. Please feel free to start another one!