Saskatchewan NDP leadership

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Gyroknopter
Saskatchewan NDP leadership

So, any word on when there will be progress in this department?  As it is, there are no checks on the government, as shown by the budget.  I know they were waiting for their federal counterparts to finish up.  But they are seriously hamstringing themselves by not being a presence in the media.

Oh yes, and hi, I'm new here.  From Saskatoon.  Please don't flame me too bad.  :)

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Aristotleded24

Gyroknopter wrote:
Oh yes, and hi, I'm new here.  From Saskatoon.  Please don't flame me too bad.  :)

Go Bombers Go!Tongue out

Seriously though, welcome to babble. I hope you enjoy the discussion here. I haven't heard anything about the Saskatchewan NDP, but if you hear anything, please feel free to post.

lil.Tommy

This is what i have found: Leadership convention for Feb/March 2013

http://saskndp.ca/news/item/?n=156

 

Looks like 5MLAs are considering running: Buckley Belanger, Cam Broten, Danielle Chartier, Cathy Sproule and Trent Wotherspoon

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/03/09/saskatchewan-ndp-leadership_n_1334064.htm

 

The remaining 4MLAs won't be running: David Forbes, Warren McCall, Doyle Vermette and John Nilson (interim leader)
http://www.leaderpost.com/news/Sask+gearing+leadership+race/6273723/story.html

 

Any thoughts on those possibles? Any word on an outsider like Meili coming back and running again?

PlainsExplorer

I know Meili was asking friends on facebook if he should run again, but I am not sure how inclined he is to give it another go.

I'm personally hoping it will be someone from outside of caucus, but the NDP has a long, difficult, road back to power.  For some reason the dominant narrative in the province is very anti-NDP and I am not sure how to fight that.

On a purely speculative note, I noticed that the Muclair victory in the NDP leadership race has resurrected the political career of Lorne Nystrom.  Curious to see if that means anything.

 

Wilf Day

Gyroknopter wrote:
hi, I'm new here.  From Saskatoon.

A warm welcome. Speak up, please.

PlainsExplorer wrote:
I noticed that the Muclair victory in the NDP leadership race has resurrected the political career of Lorne Nystrom. Curious to see if that means anything.

He is about to turn 66. But I hope he will take up his favourite cause, proportional representation. With voters outside Saskatoon, Regina and the far North having no opposition voice, a regional open-list Mixed Member Proportional system such as the one proposed by the Law Commission of Canada would not only make every vote count equally, it would also give give rural and urban voters in every region fair representation in both government and opposition.

If Saskatchewan had a democratic voting system . . .

Quote:

Problems with your Health Region in Prairie North, Prince Albert Parkland, Kelsey Trail, Sunrise, Sun Country, Five Hills, Cypress, or Heartland? Who're ya gonna call?

One interesting difference would be the 16 MLAs from Moose Jaw-Swift Current-Estevan-Rosetown: instead of a SP sweep, my spreadsheet projects four New Democrats, once NDP votes count equally with SP voters. That would be the four regional NDP candidates who got the most votes across the region. Maybe NDP voters would have elected Deb Higgins, Glenn Wright, Carol Morin, and Ken Kessler or Derek Hassen or Donald Jeworski.

The 16 MLAs in that region would be ten local, six regional. The SP would no doubt have won all ten local seats, so those SP voters would even elect two of the regional MLAs. Green Party voters just missed getting enough votes here to elect an MLA like William Caton or Norbert Kratchmer.

Another change would be the 18 MLAs from Prince Albert-Battlefords-Yorkton-Tisdale: instead of the SP winning all but two, we'd see six New Democrats. That would be the four regional NDP candidates who got the most votes across the region (maybe Darcy Furber, Len Taylor, Helen Ben and Bernadette Gopher or Ted Zurakowski or Jeanette Wicinski-Dunn). The 18 MLAs in that region would be 12 local, six regional.

Of course, this projection simplistically assumes voters would have cast the same ballots they did in 2011. The reality would be different. When every vote counts, we typically see around 8% higher turnout. And one recent study suggested 18% of voters might vote differently. No more strategic voting. We would likely have had different candidates -- more women, and more diversity of all kinds. Who knows who might have won real democratic elections?

Different candidates: when the SP members from Moose Jaw-Swift Current-Estevan-Rosetown met in a regional nominating convention, they would have not only voted to put the ten local nominees on the regional ballot, but would have added several regional candidates. With only one woman from the ten local ridings, when they nominated several additional regional candidates, they would have naturally wanted to nominate a diverse group: more women. This year Saskatchewan elected ten women and 48 men. But 90% of Canadian voters say that, if parties would nominate more women, they'd vote for them.

http://wilfday.blogspot.ca/2011/11/if-saskatchewan-had-democratic-voting...

PlainsExplorer

Wilf Day wrote:

Gyroknopter wrote:
hi, I'm new here.  From Saskatoon.

He is about to turn 66. But I hope he will take up his favourite cause, proportional representation. With voters outside Saskatoon, Regina and the far North having no opposition voice, a regional open-list Mixed Member Proportional system such as the one proposed by the Law Commission of Canada would not only make every vote count equally, it would also give give rural and urban voters in every region fair representation in both government and opposition.

If Saskatchewan had a democratic voting system . . .

I thought that age might be a factor, but there have been more improbable political comebacks in recent Saskatchewan history - It's a definite longshot.

Now that I think about it a little deeper, I am not sure what effect the federal leadership race will have on the Saskatchewan New Democrats.  I don't hear people talk about Muclair, but they don't really talk about Harper either - the Conservative brand is strong though.  The next leader needs a plan or the charisma to change that.   

Gaian

What does the party have in mind to accommodate the needs/wants of an aboriginal population that should begin to weigh heavily there? Those sitting New Democrats do not seem too representative, if names mean anything. Doesn't Saskatchewan need a Romeo Saganash...or two?

Unionist

Gaian wrote:
What does the party have in mind to accommodate the needs/wants of an aboriginal population that should begin to weigh heavily there? Those sitting New Democrats do not seem too representative, if names mean anything. Doesn't Saskatchewan need a Romeo Saganash...or two?

Names don't mean everything: [url=http://saskndp.ca/constituencies/cumberland]Doyle Vermette[/url], for example.

And isn't Buckley Belanger of Metis ancestry as well?

ETA: Just to elaborate a bit, lots of French names on the Prairies (and many a Scottish one...) disclose Metis descent. Examples: Louis Riel, Gabriel Dumont...

 

6079_Smith_W

I don't know if Danielle Chartier identifies as Metis (it doesn't say so anywhere) but her last name is certainly a very common Metis name.

And Unionist, that is absolutely true. Before the Canadians arrived 40 percent of people in Red River were Anglo or Metis mixed blood - larger than any other single group.

Gaian

Unionist wrote:

Gaian wrote:
What does the party have in mind to accommodate the needs/wants of an aboriginal population that should begin to weigh heavily there? Those sitting New Democrats do not seem too representative, if names mean anything. Doesn't Saskatchewan need a Romeo Saganash...or two?

Names don't mean everything: [url=http://saskndp.ca/constituencies/cumberland]Doyle Vermette[/url], for example.

And isn't Buckley Belanger of Metis ancestry as well?

ETA: Just to elaborate a bit, lots of French names on the Prairies (and many a Scottish one...) disclose Metis descent. Examples: Louis Riel, Gabriel Dumont...

 

Yes, as I said, "if names mean anything." really exposing myself to history lessons. But I was really interested in somewhat more recent history of political involvement, post Riel, Poundmaker, etc.

Perhaps someone from west of the Red River could help with the answer, the riding areas represented, etc., a tad less speculative?

6079_Smith_W

Unionist answered your question correctly, Gaian.

And I think he posted the link as well. You can also go to the Saskatchewan NDP site yourself. 

If it makes any difference, I was born about 2km west of the Red, and I can vouch for him.

Unionist

And yes, Gaian, Buckley Belanger is Metis as well.

 

6079_Smith_W
Gaian

The other half of the question was : "What does the party have in mind to accommodate the needs/wants of an aboriginal population that should begin to weigh heavily there?" When I travelled west, some time after the York boats were retired, I found a huge degree of antipathy toward the FN people by the descendants of the more recent (1885-1920 ) European, Eastern Canadian and American crowd.You got that from every hitchhiker you picked up in your volksvagen van. Is there strong FN representation in Conservative ranks? Perhaps the Red River Valley resident could speak to that? Intensiive invesgtigation of the newspapers does not reveal a damned thing. Rabble babble folk should be among the more enlightened in this area, less misled by the MSM.

Gyroknopter

To be perfectly honest, none of the FN people I know feel represented by any party.  I don't know the stats, but I would hazard a guess to say that the FN have the lowest voting percentage as a bloc.  None of the parties can fairly say they represent FN people.

6079_Smith_W

The thing is Gaian, I don't think Unionist's response was speculative at all. He gave you the link to the NDP's site, where you could find which of their members are Native. 

And if you looked in the mainstream media you could also have found this:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/story/2011/11/30/sk-wotherspo...

As for the Sask Party, one of their Native candidates - Jennifer Campeau - was elected in Saskatoon. That doesn't speak as loudly to me as things like their hard line against  First Nations University of Canada, their cuts to northern programs, Wall's campaigning against revenue sharing, and their cancelling of the Station 20 West project. 

Again, you'll find that all on the CBC or Star Phoenix websites.

And this: 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/saskatchewan/story/2011/10/21/sk-ottenbrei...

Beyond that Gaian, I can't really say too much, not because I think I am misled or unenlightened, but because I am not a member of the Native community, and I don't think it is really for me to say how well-represented they feel.

Sorry to disappoint you. Maybe you should follow some ot the Native Press - Doug Cuthand, 

http://www.thestarphoenix.com/columnists/Doug_Cuthand.html

Eagle Feather News  http://www.eaglefeathernews.com/

APTN   http://www.aptn.ca/

Missinippi Broadcasting   http://www.mbcradio.com/index.php/mbc-news 

The Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations  http://www.fsin.com/

Metis Nation of Saskatchewan   http://www.mn-s.ca/main/

Two articles that might give you a bit of perspective:

http://metisonline.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1489:...

http://www.ammsa.com/publications/saskatchewan-sage/first-nations-want-o...

Hopefully that will give you something to chew on.

Gaian

Thanks, 6079. Just from your repsonse,when you are speaking on your own behalf, I am beginning to understand the failure of New Democrats out there in recent years.

All of this remains a mystery to this settler: "As for the Sask Party, one of their Native candidates - Jennifer Campeau - was elected in Saskatoon. That doesn't speak as loudly to me as things like their hard line against First Nations University of Canada, their cuts to northern programs, Wall's campaigning against revenue sharing, and their cancelling of the Station 20 West project."

Gaian

Gyroknopter wrote:

To be perfectly honest, none of the FN people I know feel represented by any party.  I don't know the stats, but I would hazard a guess to say that the FN have the lowest voting percentage as a bloc.  None of the parties can fairly say they represent FN people.

How do you feel about that? What would New Democrats have to do to overcome that? Or should they try? It could be instructive to hear it from someone on the ground.

6079_Smith_W

Not to sound defensive Gaian (because I am not,  that is not at all my intent) but what part of the world are you writing from where things are at all better and more accomodating? 

Of course the NDP, like all parties to a greater or lesser degree, leans toward the dominant culture. But it is that way everywhere. More importantly,  is also not one monolithic thing; it is made up of many people, with many perspectives. 

And of course I speak for myself, and while my personal fortune and ego are not tied to the NDP, I do consider them the best political option around these parts. 

When I said that we aren't all that removed from the days of Riel and Dumont I meant it , because even though most of my family did get here after confederation, I am still aware that the west was the victim of a shitty deal, and the galling truth that what happened - being overrun by fanatical, racist, law-breaking carpetbaggers in a battle that was given away - was in the long run slightly better than what would have happened otherwise - being swallowed up by the United States. And that when people elsewhere look here and see intense and entrenched racism, that is the legacy of something which was done to this place.

You mentioned Native people and the Conservative party (which doesn't actually exist as much other than a shell here in SK). I'd suggest Sheila Jones Morrison's book "Rotten to the Core" as a good first start. It is no coincidence that a significant part of that story involves events that happened in 1885.

 

 

 

Gaian

quote: "You mentioned Native people and the Conservative party (which doesn't actually exist as much other than a shell here in SK)."

Somehow the federal Conservatives play a pretty good "shell" game there themselves.

It's okay, 6079, perhaps I can get answers to my questions about the First Nations from Gyroknopter.

6079_Smith_W

Yes, Gaian, though the provincial Conservatives are not the same as the federal Harperites. They only ran five candidates in the election last year. 

As for the NDP leadership race, I haven't a clue. A lot of things can happen in a year, and given the results of the last election, I'd say a lot of things need to happen.

 

Gaian

quote: "I'd say a lot of things need to happen."

Yesw, Tom Mulcair's "deep roots" tree analogy got me to thinking about growing the party there, when I realized that there was a dirth of real information coming my way. Hence the questions about what SHOULD hold the greatest potential, the First Nations vote. It seems to me that Niki Ashton must have some ideas in that regard.

6079_Smith_W

Good idea, although Ashton is from Manitoba, and federal. You could also write Belanger or Vermette, seeing as they are actually sitting NDP members in Saskatchewan.

In any case, you keep asking until you hear what you want to hear. Good luck. In the meantime it's a little early (for me anyway) to start thinking about next year's convention, especially since the focus until a week or so ago has a rather long campaign to choose a federal leader, and right now, there is a newly-tabled budget to deal with.

 

NorthReport

The Sask NDP better get it right this time

We need a leader there who is going to bring that braying ass premier down to size,

better yet defeat him

knownothing knownothing's picture

Just got a call from the Saskparty polling

 

Timebandit

For me, the NDP getting it right will be too little, too late.

The SK Party goverment axed our tax credit with this year's budget.  Since we are now that only province without a film and television incentive program in the entire country (and among only a few regions in North America, Eurpose and Australia), I am now in the position where my clients, commissioning broadcasters, will not work with me.  Why?  Because it will cost them considerably less to go with a doc maker in any other province.

I'm pretty pissed at the SK Party - Wall and his merry band.  Incandescent with rage, actually.  But I'm even more angry, if that's possible, with the NDP for choosing a leader who would render that election not only unwinnable, but create a complete rout.  With the reduced numbers of NDP in opposition, there is nothing anyone can do for us.

I knew what the SK Party was - we all did.  So we can't be surprised when they wade in and decimate a cultural industry.  But the NDP?  I supported them in every election I voted in, and Dwain Lingenfelter's unwinnable kick at the can was more important than me, my family, the business I've poured 15 years of my life into. 

Make no mistake - we're just the beginning.  The cultural sector will be gutted on all counts.

I will very likely be leaving the province by the next election.  Well in advance of it, actually.

Thanks for nothing, SK NDP.  You rotten f-ing bastards.

wage zombie

Maybe you should've joined when Lingenfelder was running for leader.  Like you say, too late now.

Timebandit

Fuck you.  How do you know what level of involvement I've had or not had?  Is the NDP only there for it's members?  For all the hype, you'd be led to believe that the NDP is there to serve the people of this province.  Evidence shows it's there to serve the vanity of its old boys' club and as far as I'm concerned it's not fit to lead.  They let their supporters down.

You shouldn't have to be deeply involved for that not to be the case.

Caissa

Timebandit is not a man.

Timebandit

The problem is not having lost the election - it's the fact that there are only 9 seats left.  9 seats.  Running Lingenfelter didn't just lose them the election, it got them squashed.  A stronger opposition would have made the hatchet jobs they're embarking on harder to accomplish.

You don't like how angry I am.  Okay.  Can you tell me how I'm supposed to react when I'm told that, after 4 generations of contributing to this province, I should get the fuck out?  That I should uproot my kids because the SP doesn't like the way my industry works everywhere else?  Shall we sip our tea and be civilized about it?  Personally, the NDP deserves every bit of fury that's thrown at them for this.  They've betrayed us.

wage zombie

If you want to have influence over the leadership of a membership-based organization, you have to join that organization.  If you felt you had a stake in the selection of leader then you should have gotten involved.

Showing up to vote every four years is no longer enough to protect arts funding.  I would hope this would be clear to you.

I remember you posting a lot about how bad of a choice Lingenfelter was.  It looks like you were right.  Too bad his selection was "inevitable".

knownothing knownothing's picture

Caissa wrote:

Timebandit is not a man.

Sorry

knownothing knownothing's picture
knownothing knownothing's picture

Hey, we are all embarassed and disappointed by the SNDP but WTF do you expect? They have been in power for like a gazillion years here in Sask and power corrupts everything...even the NDP. Another big loss in 3 years and they might be ready to change.

 

You have to burn the grass for it to grow back greener

cco

6079_Smith_W wrote:

When I said that we aren't all that removed from the days of Riel and Dumont I meant it , because even though most of my family did get here after confederation, I am still aware that the west was the victim of a shitty deal, and the galling truth that what happened - being overrun by fanatical, racist, law-breaking carpetbaggers in a battle that was given away - was in the long run slightly better than what would have happened otherwise - being swallowed up by the United States.


Do most Canadian First Nations people feel that they got a better deal as part of Canada than if they'd been part of the United States? I really don't know; I ask because my sister-in-law is half-Cree (from Alberta), and when I asked her father, who grew up on a reserve, that very question over Christmas, his estimate was that the US was about 20 years ahead of Canada when it came to "Indian issues" (his words).

6079_Smith_W

Obviously I can't answer that question; perhaps Leonard Pelletier or Sitting Bull could. 

My guess is it comes down to six of one half a dozen of the other. I will say this; I have been through Havre Montana a few times, which was originally Metis, and where Riel organized politically for his people when he was in exile. There is nothing there to indicate he ever existed, and no one I spoke to had ever heard of him or the Metis.

Best I can do is turn the question back on you: are you happier that Canada exists, or would you prefer to be part of America?  Because that in essence is the question, and why, as I think I make clear, it is a galling one. 

cco

Well, I was born in the US, and moved to Montréal when I was 17. I'm happy to say that as a white male, Canada (and Québec) are working out pretty well for me. That doesn't mean I don't see any area in which the US is doing better than Canada, and it doesn't mean everyone else necessarily agrees. I didn't mean to be offensive in any way. I've had the same type of hypothetical discussion with Québecers.

Certainly the border as it runs through Akwesasne is pretty thin.

robbie_dee

That piece is poorly argued. Essentially, the author is criticizing Erin for supporting the NDP's 2011 platform and for having enthusiastic supporters. Erin is young and intelligent with a good media profile and global experience. The Sask NDP has a significant rebuilding job ahead and could really use someone with his background.

6079_Smith_W

cco wrote:

I didn't mean to be offensive in any way. I've had the same type of hypothetical discussion with Québecers. Certainly the border as it runs through Akwesasne is pretty thin.

Indeed, so I have heard. 

And no, if I sounded a bit frustrated it wasn't because I took your question as offensive, but obviously I can't answer it, and the whole situation is for me a very frustrating one to begin with. Because as imperfect as the situation back then was, it was a far more multicultural and balanced society - probably probably more than anything that has ever existed in Canada -  than what came after. There were more people of mixed blood in Red River than there were of any one ethnic group or culture.

If there had been some way back then for the westerners - Metis, European, Native and Half-blood - to form their own state it would probably have been best. And they had the power to do just that. At that time only the U.S. had the strength to invade. But of course, that is not what happened. 

And even at the time of the invasion it was not a simple case of Europeans invading First Nations, and had not been for a very long time. The strongest block there were the Metis, and their interests and loyalties were not always the same as First Nations.

There certainly were some there who argued for joining the states - including Riel, at one point - and certainly the natural trade routes at the time came from Minneapolis. If I remember my history many Patriotes also lobbied for Quebec to join the U.S. after their uprising was put down. 

But the question of what was the best course is probably one that we never can answer, because we cannot say what might have been.

Anyway... from that last post it seems we're drifting here; sorry.

 

 

Aristotleded24

Is there still no leadership contender for the Saskatchewan NDP yet? That is not a good sign, considering that the election was over 6 months ago and that there is less than a year to leadership convention. What does this say about the future of the party? At least the PC Party in Manitoba has a leadership candidate already.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

I believe that the leadership contest has taken a backseat at the moment because a greater need was felt for a real process of party renewal in the SNDP.  A leadership convention would have pretty much prevented a party renewal effort, as a lot of Sask Dippers saw it.

Clearly, though the SNDP, when it does choose a new leader, needs somebody that's completely different from the recent tradition of blandness and "safeness".  When you're this low in the polls, only a strategy that doesn't privelege "safeness" can bring you back.  Boldness and courage are what's needed now...and nobody who's been anywhere close to the Sask NDP leadership in the past can provide that.

knownothing knownothing's picture

robbie_dee wrote:

That piece is poorly argued. Essentially, the author is criticizing Erin for supporting the NDP's 2011 platform and for having enthusiastic supporters. Erin is young and intelligent with a good media profile and global experience. The Sask NDP has a significant rebuilding job ahead and could really use someone with his background.

Yep, I am just trying to keep you up-to-date on the crap that passes for journalism in this province

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

knownothing wrote:

robbie_dee wrote:

That piece is poorly argued. Essentially, the author is criticizing Erin for supporting the NDP's 2011 platform and for having enthusiastic supporters. Erin is young and intelligent with a good media profile and global experience. The Sask NDP has a significant rebuilding job ahead and could really use someone with his background.

Yep, I am just trying to keep you up-to-date on the crap that passes for journalism in this province

Crap indeed.  that article was basically a demand that the NDP reduce itself to Blairism or disband.  And how very, very clever of that "writer" to put the word "economists" in quotation marks.

The Analyst The Analyst's picture

Brad Wall is absurdly popular at the moment. Any idea as to how a New NDP leader would go about making a dent in that? 

knownothing knownothing's picture

The Analyst wrote:

Brad Wall is absurdly popular at the moment. Any idea as to how a New NDP leader would go about making a dent in that? 

Elect a young leader who is not from the old guard. It must be someone who is ideological at heart and able to articulate a socialist perspective. Much of Brad Wall's popularity is a media fantasy because the ownership class knows that Saskatchewan, like Alberta, is a key geo-strategic area that need to be tightly controlled for their resources. Once he gets an actual opposition that is believable and far away from the old dynasty the NDP will challenge for power again.

I see Brad Wall getting 3 terms. But the NDP just got 4 so that isn't so bad. I just hope we still have all our crown corps left.

knownothing knownothing's picture
Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

The SNDP should see the next leadership candidate as a person they will need to commit to for at least two election cycles.  Barring the emergence of "Dust Bowl" conditions in the next two to three years, it's going to be essentially impossible to defeat the Sask party at the 2015 or 2016 election.  The best the SNDP will be able to hope for then will be to significantly grow the size of its legislative caucus...perhaps up to 18 or 19 seats.  Anything beyond that will be a freakish miracle.

Consequently, whoever seeks the SNDP leadership should be willing to commit to spending at least six or seven years as opposition leader.

Aristotleded24

Ken Burch wrote:
Barring the emergence of "Dust Bowl" conditions in the next two to three years,

[url=http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/story/2012/07/09/weather-heat-canada... beyond the realm of plausibility[/url]

knownothing knownothing's picture

Aristotleded24 wrote:

Ken Burch wrote:
Barring the emergence of "Dust Bowl" conditions in the next two to three years,

[url=http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/north/story/2012/07/09/weather-heat-canada... beyond the realm of plausibility[/url]

A dustbowl is the last thing you will see here in Saskatchewan. It is wetter and there is more water in the fields every year.

Ken Burch Ken Burch's picture

perhaps, then, a Mud Bowl...a condition that would be just as damaging to the rural economy as any dustbowl.  After all, crops can drown just as easily as they can die of thirst.

knownothing knownothing's picture

Ken Burch wrote:

perhaps, then, a Mud Bowl...a condition that would be just as damaging to the rural economy as any dustbowl.  After all, crops can drown just as easily as they can die of thirst.

I predict rice fields in 10 years

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