Who Should Replace Howard Hampton?

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Wilf Day

quote:


Originally posted by candle:
[b][url=http://andreahorwath.ca/aboutAndrea]Andrea Horvath [/url][/b]

As previously discussed

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=002175]he..., and

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=002164]he..., and

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=002164]he..., and

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=002161]he..., and

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=002184]he..., and

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=002156]he... As well as

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=001939&p=... and even way back[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=000736&p=] when she was running in the 2004 by-election:[/url]

quote:

Originally posted by Booker:
[b]Just watched the CH @ 5:30 debate and subsequent TV coverage.

Another decisive victory for the confident, articulate, stately Andrea Horwath. On issue after issue, she looked every bit the next Hamilton East MPP.[/b]



quote:

Originally posted by Booker:
[b]More coverage of the Hamilton East debate in the Stoney Creek News.

Highlights:

New Democrat candidate Andrea Horwath and Progressive Conservative candidate Tara Crugnale relentlessly hammered at Mr. Agostino and the Liberal government's record of broken promises, saying Hamilton East residents need a "fighter" at Queen's Park and not a person who makes "excuses" for breaking the government's promises.

"I'm an arrogant government's worst nightmare," said Ms. Horwath, to a chorus of applause from the pro- NDP crowd at Hamilton Cathedral Secondary School.[/b]



quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[b]I am fascinated by the energy this election has generated among my Steeltown co-workers.

. . there seems to be a real sense that dirty tricks and slimy tactics are completely wrong when they're directed toward someone like Horwath. Her local profile and reputation for integrity has clearly generated a degree of respect that is pretty rare these days.[/b]


Wilf Day

quote:


Originally posted by candle:
[b][url=http://andreahorwath.ca/aboutAndrea]Andrea Horvath [/url][/b]

As previously discussed

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=002175]he..., and

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=002164]he..., and

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=002164]he..., and

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=002161]he..., and

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=002184]he..., and

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=002156]he... As well as

[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=001939&p=... and even way back[url=http://www.rabble.ca/babble/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=000736&p=] when she was running in the 2004 by-election:[/url]

quote:

Originally posted by Booker:
[b]Just watched the CH @ 5:30 debate and subsequent TV coverage.

Another decisive victory for the confident, articulate, stately Andrea Horwath. On issue after issue, she looked every bit the next Hamilton East MPP.[/b]



quote:

Originally posted by Booker:
[b]More coverage of the Hamilton East debate in the Stoney Creek News.

Highlights:

New Democrat candidate Andrea Horwath and Progressive Conservative candidate Tara Crugnale relentlessly hammered at Mr. Agostino and the Liberal government's record of broken promises, saying Hamilton East residents need a "fighter" at Queen's Park and not a person who makes "excuses" for breaking the government's promises.

"I'm an arrogant government's worst nightmare," said Ms. Horwath, to a chorus of applause from the pro- NDP crowd at Hamilton Cathedral Secondary School.[/b]



quote:

Originally posted by Phil:
[b]I am fascinated by the energy this election has generated among my Steeltown co-workers.

. . there seems to be a real sense that dirty tricks and slimy tactics are completely wrong when they're directed toward someone like Horwath. Her local profile and reputation for integrity has clearly generated a degree of respect that is pretty rare these days.[/b]


lover0fighter

FYI: There is a Peggy Nash for Leader of the Ontario New Democratic Party facebook group started a few days ago...

[url=http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=31921988206&ref=mf]http://www.face...

lover0fighter

FYI: There is a Peggy Nash for Leader of the Ontario New Democratic Party facebook group started a few days ago...

[url=http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=31921988206&ref=mf]http://www.face...

Unionist

quote:


Originally posted by Doug:
[b]

Without good economic policy, we won't be able to afford the sort of public health care we'd like. That should be obvious.[/b]


Yes, with massive surpluses through the Chrйtien years and huge wealth generated in Alberta, Saskatchewan, and the like, medicare really flourished.

I think there's a campaign slogan in there somewhere:

Get rich, get healthy!!

or

Health via Wealth!!

[ 22 October 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

Unionist

quote:


Originally posted by Doug:
[b]

Without good economic policy, we won't be able to afford the sort of public health care we'd like. That should be obvious.[/b]


Yes, with massive surpluses through the Chrйtien years and huge wealth generated in Alberta, Saskatchewan, and the like, medicare really flourished.

I think there's a campaign slogan in there somewhere:

Get rich, get healthy!!

or

Health via Wealth!!

[ 22 October 2008: Message edited by: unionist ]

Doug

quote:


Originally posted by unionist:
[b]
Yes, with massive surpluses through the Chrйtien years and huge wealth generated in Alberta, Saskatchewan, and the like, medicare really flourished.
[/b]

It could have, had they chosen to do so, which is a far better situation than not having the money at all.

Doug

quote:


Originally posted by unionist:
[b]
Yes, with massive surpluses through the Chrйtien years and huge wealth generated in Alberta, Saskatchewan, and the like, medicare really flourished.
[/b]

It could have, had they chosen to do so, which is a far better situation than not having the money at all.

Unionist

quote:


Originally posted by Doug:
[b]

It could have, had they chosen to do so, which is a far better situation than not having the money at all.[/b]


Wrong, Doug. This country built pathbreaking social programs first, and figured out how to pay for them later. Sorry to be so brazen about it. Later, when attention turned to surplus financing, the dismantling of social safety nets (EI, public health care, public housing, etc.) began.

It's too much to be explained by coincidence.

I would rather trust a poor person than a rich one with the survival of our social programs.

No country ever went broke looking after its people. Check out the United States if you require an example of the opposite.

Unionist

quote:


Originally posted by Doug:
[b]

It could have, had they chosen to do so, which is a far better situation than not having the money at all.[/b]


Wrong, Doug. This country built pathbreaking social programs first, and figured out how to pay for them later. Sorry to be so brazen about it. Later, when attention turned to surplus financing, the dismantling of social safety nets (EI, public health care, public housing, etc.) began.

It's too much to be explained by coincidence.

I would rather trust a poor person than a rich one with the survival of our social programs.

No country ever went broke looking after its people. Check out the United States if you require an example of the opposite.

Fidel

quote:


Originally posted by unionist:
[b]

Wrong, Doug. This country built pathbreaking social programs first, and figured out how to pay for them later. Sorry to be so brazen about it. Later, when attention turned to surplus financing, the dismantling of social safety nets (EI, public health care, public housing, etc.) began.[/b]


Canada's economy was pretty dull and grey in 1935. Liberals nationalised Bank of Canada in 1938 and pressured by CCF to do it. A war debt was paid down, and new infrastructure and social programs were funded by the feds creating near interest-free money - about a quarter of the total supply between 1938 and 1974. There was money for schools, hospitals, power dams and health care. "Stagflation" happened, and neoliberalism. Banking and finance was deregulated. Bank bailouts ensued.

Second to few other countries in the world national debt happened in Canada unnecessarily.

Obssession with paying down debt happnened unnecessarily. FTA-NAFTA happened against the wishes of a vast majority of what is one of the most well-educated and informed publics in the world here in Canada.

Fidel

quote:


Originally posted by unionist:
[b]

Wrong, Doug. This country built pathbreaking social programs first, and figured out how to pay for them later. Sorry to be so brazen about it. Later, when attention turned to surplus financing, the dismantling of social safety nets (EI, public health care, public housing, etc.) began.[/b]


Canada's economy was pretty dull and grey in 1935. Liberals nationalised Bank of Canada in 1938 and pressured by CCF to do it. A war debt was paid down, and new infrastructure and social programs were funded by the feds creating near interest-free money - about a quarter of the total supply between 1938 and 1974. There was money for schools, hospitals, power dams and health care. "Stagflation" happened, and neoliberalism. Banking and finance was deregulated. Bank bailouts ensued.

Second to few other countries in the world national debt happened in Canada unnecessarily.

Obssession with paying down debt happnened unnecessarily. FTA-NAFTA happened against the wishes of a vast majority of what is one of the most well-educated and informed publics in the world here in Canada.

Doug

quote:


Originally posted by unionist:
[QB]
Wrong, Doug. This country built pathbreaking social programs first, and figured out how to pay for them later.

Nope - not true at all. Social programs in Canada were created very cautiously with paying for them always a concern. Medicare started in 1944 as a limited program to insure the cost of hospital stays, and that's it. The original pension plan was stingy compared to Social Security in the US (and still is, in some ways). Unemployment insurance wasn't very generous and not available to most workers until 1971. The history of social programs in Canada is one of incremental expansion up until we reversed course with cutbacks in the 1980s and 90s.

Bookish Agrarian

Exactly right Doug. Tommy Douglas first had to reverse the near bankruptcy of the previous government to be able to move forward more dramatically on social spending. Yes some things were done right away, but many others had to be brought in over time.
Fiscally responsible and fiscally conservative are NOT the same thing. CCF-NDP governments, with the exception of Liberal in sheeps clothing Rae have always been very fiscally responsible.

Fidel

quote:


Originally posted by Bookish Agrarian:
[b] CCF-NDP governments, with the exception of Liberal in sheeps clothing Rae have always been very fiscally responsible.[/b]

Rae's NDP ran budget deficits and injecting much-needed countercyclical dollars into a recessionary Ontario.

Rae's NDP was the first government in the province's history to reduce year to year spending in order to deal with the recession.

Ontario's economy began picking up momentum in 1994, and Floyd Laughren put Toronto on track for balanced budgets by turn of the decade. It would have happened if not for Harris borrowing $35 billion at high interest rates to finance tax cuts for rich friends of the party. Tories left the province saddled with a $5 billion dollar annual budget deficit instead.

Lord Palmerston

This crap about being "fiscally responsible" is a line the NDP should be challenging, not embracing.

M. Spector M. Spector's picture
Unionist

C'mon, guys, how is the NDP supposed to replace the Cons and the Libs unless it sounds just like them?

Campaign from the right, then govern from the left.

Just like the Liberals.

I think.

Fidel

quote:


Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:
[b]This crap about being "fiscally responsible" is a line the NDP should be challenging, not embracing.[/b]

Since FTAA-NAFTA, provinces are living in a phone booth wrt powers of taxation and public sector expansion. Canada is middle of the pack wrt overall taxation at the federal level. If Ottawa pulls tax revenues well below the OECD average as a percentage of GDP, then we're not going to be able to afford a lot of things.

[url=http://www.ndp.ca/page/6924]Layton would reverse Tory-Liberal corporate tax cuts[/url]

[url=http://archive.ndp.ca/page/6253]NDP MP announces task force on NAFTA renegotiation[/url]

Fidel

quote:


Originally posted by unionist:
[b]C'mon, guys, how is the NDP supposed to replace the Cons and the Libs unless it sounds just like them?

Campaign from the right, then govern from the left.

Just like the Liberals.

I think.[/b]


What about three decades of neoliberal Liberal and Tory rule? Magic wand much?

Doug

quote:


Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:
[b]This crap about being "fiscally responsible" is a line the NDP should be challenging, not embracing.[/b]

I can't say I agree. People will not agree to be taxed more for social services, infrastructure, etc if they think that the money is going to be wasted or just spent rewarding political allies.

aka Mycroft

Peter Tabuns officially launched his campaign today. Did any babblers make it out to the event?

Unionist

I haven't made out at any event since high school. Sounds like fun, though.

aka Mycroft
spincycle

quote:


Originally posted by aka Mycroft:
[b]Peter Tabuns officially launched his campaign today. Did any babblers make it out to the event?[/b]

Yep, I was there. Standing room only crowd in a very large room. Very impressive considering many had just come off volunteering on the federal election. High energy and lots of excitement. Quite certain other babblers were there.

spincycle

[url=http://www.thestar.com/News/Ontario/article/525054]Tabuns eyes Hampton's Job[/url] The first comment at the bottom of the article refers to others on the stage with Tabuns.

Mojoroad1

quote:


Originally posted by spincycle:
[b][url=http://www.thestar.com/News/Ontario/article/525054]Tabuns eyes Hampton's Job[/url] The first comment at the bottom of the article refers to others on the stage with Tabuns.[/b]

Ya, I was there, along with my (hidden behind some guy who jumped into the photo at the last second Prov candidate partner- you can see her hand- so she claims [img]wink.gif" border="0[/img] )....

Spincycle, I was the "man in black" (it was laundry day) sitting next to Peter's mom up front BTW.
[img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]

malpeque

quote:


Originally posted by Mojoroad1:
[b]

Spincycle, I was the "man in black" (it was laundry day) sitting next to Peter's mom up front BTW.
[img]wink.gif" border="0[/img] [/b]


It was a great event wasn't it Mojoroad. I was particularly impressed by the diversity of the room and the huge contingent of young people. Also sitting near you was Janucz Duksta (sp) former MPP for Parkdale-High Park. My partner was near you too but I ended up at the back of the room. Understand a video of the speech will be ready soon so theres a good chance your partner won't be blocked out all the time. cheers!

spincycle

Looks like there was a number of Babblers there. I was off to the side near the membership table. Room was too packed to get into by the time Tabuns arrived.

Wilf Day

quote:


Originally posted by spincycle:
[b][url=http://www.thestar.com/News/Ontario/article/525054]Tabuns eyes Hampton's Job[/url] The first comment at the bottom of the article refers to others on the stage with Tabuns.[/b]


quote:

Also endorsing Peter was none other than Jill Marzetti, former executive director of the Ontario NDP, and the party's former federal secretary, and Janet Solberg -who introduced Tabuns- Steven Lewis's accomplished sister who's famous beyond her familial ties for advocating social justice within the NDP and outside of it.

There was a time when the support of the Lewis clan would clinch the election of a new NDP leader.

But didn't they support Frances Lankin?

[ 27 October 2008: Message edited by: Wilf Day ]

Doug

Frances Lankin, quite unfortunately and unjustly, had Bob Rae hanging around her neck. All this does pretty much signal Tabuns as the "establishment" choice, to whatever degree that helps or hurts.

Mojoroad1

quote:


Originally posted by malpeque:
[b]

It was a great event wasn't it Mojoroad. I was particularly impressed by the diversity of the room and the huge contingent of young people. Also sitting near you was Janucz Duksta (sp) former MPP for Parkdale-High Park. My partner was near you too but I ended up at the back of the room. Understand a video of the speech will be ready soon so theres a good chance your partner won't be blocked out all the time. cheers![/b]


Yeah I was impressed by the diversity of the room....I don't know Janucz by sight, even though I lived in PHP for more than a few years.

Heh, as an aside, funny thing about the Torstar "comment" I wrote... as it was completely factual, I had to laugh when someone put a "disagree" thumbs down on it! [img]rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img]

Hilarious!

If someone in the NDP (or supporter) was quoted as saying "The Earth is Round", you can bet a right wing wingnut or 2 (or a dozen) would "disagree".
[img]wink.gif" border="0[/img]

Mojoroad1

quote:


Originally posted by Doug:
[b]Frances Lankin, quite unfortunately and unjustly, had Bob Rae hanging around her neck. All this does pretty much signal Tabuns as the "establishment" choice, to whatever degree that helps or hurts.[/b]

True enough I suppose, But Peter was very smart when he announced he's "from the change wing of the NDP"...to dissuade that albatross from haunting him (even though he had no part in the Rae Govm't).

Stockholm

quote:


Frances Lankin, quite unfortunately and unjustly, had Bob Rae hanging around her neck.

Someday someone will have to explain to me why Lankin was seen as having the Bob Rae albatross hanging around her neck, while Hampton was not - even though he held two senior cabinet portfolios under Rae and voted for the social contract like almost everyone else.

jrootham

All the candidates had the albatross, with the possible exception of Peter Kormos, who had his own problems. In relative terms Francis was considered the closest to Rae.

I think the support of the party apparatchiks for Francis had the perverse effect of reducing her support. Also I suspect there was some union guys going for the union guy going on (and yes, guy is an important word in that sentence).

PoliticalVixen

No danger of the "union guys going for the union guy" here. Given his labour record at Greenpeace AND his recent labour charges at QP Peter Tabuns is definitely NOT a union guy.

Tabuns and DiNovo are the kind of bad bosses we protest against not share a stage with.

adma

Plus the Toronto versus Not From Toronto factor, I suppose...

Mojoroad1

quote:


Originally posted by adma:
[b]Plus the Toronto versus Not From Toronto factor, I suppose...[/b]

Thought about that one awhile ago.....but you know what? Howard has steered the ship from the farthest flung riding in Northern Ontario for so long, I really can't see that as a drag on the 3 "southerners" (inc Horwath).... I really do think it will come down to ideas and debates , leadership skills and organization.

Also, there is the "White Male" thing...Advantage: Andrea. BUT Peter has a huge and diverse support base. It was no accident he featured so many "new generation" female candidates behind him. And I'm not so sure it matters when so many big gun NDP women are activly supporting him....says alot IMHO.

Bookish Agrarian

quote:


Originally posted by Lord Palmerston:
[b]This crap about being "fiscally responsible" is a line the NDP should be challenging, not embracing.[/b]

Try paying your rent, mortgage or grocery bills without being fiscally responsible. All fiscal responsibility means is that you set a budget and you live within your means. That is most decidedly not neo-liberal, right wing or conservative, in fact as Flarhety has proven twice now, they do the opposite.

Stockholm

quote:


Plus the Toronto versus Not From Toronto factor, I suppose...

Meanwhile, the federal ND is led by a man who is often depicted as the total personification of Toronto - yet under his leadership, the federal NDP had its greatest results ever in Ontario winning just about every single seat in northern Ontario (something the man from Fort Frances has never manged to do), Hamilton, Windsor etc...

Wilf Day

quote:


Originally posted by Stockholm:
[b]the federal ND is led by a man who is often depicted as the total personification of Toronto - [/b]

But of course he always said "I'm not from Toronto, I'm from Montreal."

[url=http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/Tabuns-09-Campaign-913575.html]T...' press release says "Originally from Hamilton, he lives in Toronto . . ."[/url] Well, it worked for Jack.

1948

quote:


Originally posted by Stockholm:
[b]

Meanwhile, the federal ND is led by a man who is often depicted as the total personification of Toronto - yet under his leadership, the federal NDP had its greatest results ever in Ontario winning just about every single seat in northern Ontario (something the man from Fort Frances has never manged to do), Hamilton, Windsor etc...[/b]


And winning fewer seats in Toronto than the man from Fort Frances. At one point half of Hampton's caucus was from Toronto - whereas Layton's Toronto caucus has meetings whenever the Leader and his wife have a date.

Funny world.

Wilf, you seem like an historian, did the Lewis clan back Michael Cassidy? If not, that's another one they lost. If so, I think they're repeating history. Peter's a nice guy but he's not a Jack Layton much less a Stephen Lewis.

I don't think the NDP needs another earnest but boring white guy in his late-50s talking about energy efficiency.

[ 28 October 2008: Message edited by: 1948 ]

janfromthebruce

Thought this would be of interest to folks here. The first debate among the potential leaders for ONDP.

Saturday, Nov. 1, 3 p.m. to 5 p.m. OISE Auditorium, Toronto, main floor
Debate of the Candidates for Ontario NDP Leader
open to all NDP members, the general public and the media

Gilles Bisson, MPP Timmins-James Bay
Andrea Horwath, MPP Hamilton Centre
Michael Prue, MPP, Beaches-East York
Peter Tabuns, MPP, Toronto-Danforth

Format: Opening statements from each candidate, questions to candidates from our panel.... Street nurse, leading anti-poverty activist and author of Dying for a Home, Cathy Crowe; School trustee with Bluewater District, and Vice-Chair, Western Region, Ontario Public School Board Association, Jan Johnstone; and NDP Socialist Caucus co-chair Barry Weisleder; followed by candidates answers, questions from the audience, more candidates answers, and a concluding statement from each candidate.
____________________________________________________________________

6 p.m. Social gathering at Fox and Fiddle pub, 180 Bloor St. W., 1 block west of OISE

For more information, call: 416 - 535-8779 e-mail: barryaw@rogers.com
and visit the Socialist Caucus web site: [url=http://www.ndpsocialists.ca]www.ndpsocialists.ca[/url]

Stockholm

quote:


I don't think the NDP needs another earnest but boring white guy in his late-50s talking about energy efficiency.

You may be right - but what are the alternatives?

Prue (another earnest but boring white guy in his late-50s NOT talking about energy efficiency).

Bisson (windbag from Timmins who is regarded as an ANTI-environmentalist and who cast one of the only votes against a bill to increase penalties for cruelty to animals)

Horvath (may be OK, but some say not quite ready for prime time)

Olly

quote:


Gilles Bisson, MPP Timmins-James Bay
Andrea Horwath, MPP Hamilton Centre
Michael Prue, MPP, Beaches-East York
Peter Tabuns, MPP, Toronto-Danforth

I have to say, this is about the least inspiring crew of leadership wannabes I've ever seen. Can someone please convince Peggy Nash to run?

malpeque

I think the few hundred enthusiastic people who showed up at Tabuns' event, including a handful of Babblers, wouldn't agree with these assessments.

George Victor

quote:


I think the few hundred enthusiastic people who showed up at Tabuns' event, including a handful of Babblers, wouldn't agree with these assessments.


I heard Peter speak and was able to ask him some questions, recently.

His speech was not inspiring and aside from a green aversion to nuclear, I did not come away with a clear understanding of his economics. He does seem to be the "safe" choice for the powers that be. And maybe he can "get down" and forceful in a fashion that Stephane, for instance, found impossible?

malpeque

quote:


Originally posted by George Victor:
[b]

I heard Peter speak and was able to ask him some questions, recently.

His speech was not inspiring and aside from a green aversion to nuclear, I did not come away with a clear understanding of his economics. [/b]


Let me understand, you were at Sunday's event and did not come away with a clear understanding?

aka Mycroft

Tabuns' launch speech is on YouTube

code:


Max Bialystock

quote:


Originally posted by Stockholm:
[b]

Someday someone will have to explain to me why Lankin was seen as having the Bob Rae albatross hanging around her neck, while Hampton was not - even though he held two senior cabinet portfolios under Rae and voted for the social contract like almost everyone else.[/b]


You're right - Hampton is a hypocrite.

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