Charlie Hebdo - new!

188 posts / 0 new
Last post
lagatta

Unionist, there are a lot of historical references to everything I mentioned. I'm not someone who thinks genocide, racism or sexism are funny, and I'm pissed off at your attacks on me. What the fuck are you trying to prove?

Unionist

lagatta wrote:

Unionist, there are a lot of historical references to everything I mentioned. I'm not someone who thinks genocide, racism or sexism are funny, and I'm pissed off at your attacks on me. What the fuck are you trying to prove?

That I disagree with you. My family were wiped out by the Holocaust (for example), and I've never in my life heard a single joke about it - except from rabid anti-Semites. And I've never in my life heard a joke about the Polytechnique. Have you?????

"Jokes" about genocide and murder and homophobia and misogyny should be shunned in enlightened society. Anyone who tells such "jokes" should be told to fuck off. If that's their "survival mechanism" (which I don't believe), they should tell it to themselves, or to other survivors in private who find such "jokes" consoling.

No, I don't think people who tell disgusting revolting "jokes" should be gunned down by self-styled religious murderers. Yes, I'm an anglo leftist, but I also read and speak French well, and I enjoy humour and satire. No, I don't think any of the topics you mentioned should be the subject of humour among progressive human beings.

I think you said something really wrong, and I'm disagreeing with you in strong terms. I have nothing against you. If you want to make your case, go ahead. But arguing a point by saying "you're attacking me" is not appropriate.

 

 

6079_Smith_W

Unionist wrote:

I've never in my life heard a single joke about it.

I heard one today in a TV show... along the order of "What did we Germans ever do to deserve this? ...... Oh. Right."

Context.

And that goes double for transgressive art, and that which is directed at extremists. But as for how far is too far, before we start building walls around satire as a fine art it bears remembering that it is practically defined by that old image about raising babies for slaughter.

NDPP

Meanwhile Smith, while you take your disgusting Islamophobic sadism-not-satire, hobby horse out for yet another caper,  pretending the defence of free speech, civilization, or whatever, they're building a mighty oppressive police state all around us pretending to defend the same things you are. It's a lie.

lagatta

Unionist, I've heard such jokes, among Jewish people, and yes, all of them (this is in Europe) have lost family members in the Shoah. I think that is a cultural difference. Do I tell Holocaust jokes? Of course not; I'm not Jewish, and I don't come from that very scathing Français de France humour tradition. I know a very common one, but am not repeating it for that reason. I don't associate with anti-semites or other racists.

I had a nightmare about Charlie Hebdo last night, as if I worked there, or at least had colleagues who did. Probably because I met an old friend with whom I'd worked at Nouvelles CSN, and today I'm taking part in the editorial board of a very local community paper.

Hey, I'm just hearing on the news that Mohammed Fahmi is being freed!

6079_Smith_W

lagatta wrote:

Hey, I'm just hearing on the news that Mohammed Fahmi is being freed!

Very good news.

And we could just as easily compare this to Tina Fey and Amy Poehler at the Golden Globes, and the question of whether one should tell rape jokes or not.

(and there haven't been any racism charges for mocking Cosby's style of speech)

Of course some people are going to say no, and never. But there are plenty who say it is fair game, and that the important thing is the rhetorical point. I see no difference here. This has less to do with shock and humiliation than what the point is.

Some here think mocking religion and the religion-afflicted is the same thing as racism and Imperialism and those John Birch and Der Stuermer pics. I say that begs the question of whether they would also cry foul about mocking poor white trash Christians. And even if they are willing to go that far, I don't really care. Because again there are plenty who realize that it is not the same thing, it is fair, and if some don't want to see it, they shouldn't look at it.

But I would ask (as I have asked a couple of times, with no response) how far they do think we should go in observing and protecting others' religious sensibilities. Hauling all girls out of school? Banning atheism? It is easy to wave "freedom of speech" around as an elite, western indulgence, especially for those who are quite happy arguing that everyone should think like them. Quite another when we talk about other ways in which we imperialists have offended extremists' religious sensibilities.

 

voice of the damned

NDPP wrote:

Meanwhile Smith, while you take your disgusting Islamophobic sadism-not-satire, hobby horse out for yet another caper,  pretending the defence of free speech, civilization, or whatever, they're building a mighty oppressive police state all around us pretending to defend the same things you are. It's a lie.

Reply...

voice of the damned

Your argument is like saying that anyone who expresses concern about sexual assualt is an ally of Harper, since he uses sexual-assault(among other crimes) as an argument for law-and-order policies.

6079_Smith_W

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/shots-fired-at-copenhagen-cafe-in-terror-at...

Quote:

The event was organized by Swedish artist Lars Vilks, who has faced numerous threats for caricaturing the Prophet Muhammad.

Danish police said the gunman shot through the windows of the Krudttoenden cafe, which the TV2 news channel said were riddled with some 30 bullet holes. Helle Merete Brix, one of the event's organizers, told The Associated Press that Vilks was at the meeting but was not hit

NDPP

'Charlie Hebdo was a small oasis. Not many dared do what they did.' - Lars Vilks

Swedish Cartoonist Lars Vilks: 'I Strongly Support SION's Important Critique of Political Islam.'

http://pamelageller.com/2012/09/swedish-cartoonist-lars-vilks-i-strongly...

"SION is a defender of the basic values of Western Culture, including freedom of expression....I also and strongly support SION's important criitque of political Islam."

http://www.3quarksdaily.com/3quarksdaily/2012/09/gellers-savage-ad-displ...

6079_Smith_W

That's an ineresting bit of leapfrogging, NDPP. Too bad what actually got him on al Quaeda's most wanted list, and got that event shot up and one person murdered,  was Vilks making a picture of Mohammed as a piece of street-art

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lars_Vilks_Muhammad_drawings_controversy

 

NS NS's picture

NDPP you might find this interesting

PEW RESEARCH  How support for publishing Charlie Hebdo cartoons breaks down across race, gender, politics

http://pewrsr.ch/1y6g29W

 

 

6079_Smith_W

And we are supposed to draw what absolute conclusions from these not widely differing numbers? That Republicans are more supportive of the separation of church and state and freedom of speech?

Seems obvious to me.

NDPP

Hey NS,

Yeah I get it.  CH, Philippe Val, Vilks,  Pam Geller and our friend 6079, they're just 'Defenders of the basic values in Western Culture including freedom of expression.' Right. Got it...

NDPP

Police Killed Man Likely Responsible For Copenhagen Shootings

http://www.usatoday.com/story/main/world/2015/02/15/manhunt-underway-cop...

"Danish police said a man they shot and killed Sunday was likely behind shootings at a free speech event and a synagagogue in Copenhagen that stirred fears that another spree of terror attacks was underway, a month after 17 people were killed in Paris..."

American boots on the ground in Iraq and Syria to fight ISIS, along with some enhanced domestic surveillance and police powers perhaps?

voice of the damned

NS wrote:

NDPP you might find this interesting

PEW RESEARCH  How support for publishing Charlie Hebdo cartoons breaks down across race, gender, politics

http://pewrsr.ch/1y6g29W

 

 

Also from Pew, more whites than blacks support marriage equality.

Guess that means if you support marriage equality, you hate blacks. Or something.

voice of the damned
pookie

Pondering wrote:

6079_Smith_W wrote:

You just equated secularism with banning hijabs.

I equated it with taking secularism to extremes which changes it into a religion in itself. Forbiding people from wearing religious symbols is anti-religion masquerading as secularism, it is turning secularism into a religion.

But it's easy to think of many people advocating such bans who are themselves religious and would argue for greater religious freedom in some aspects.  Like the right to pull your child out of sex education classes because it conflicts with your Christian faith.  Or the right not to offer birth control to your employees through your insurance plan. I'd be willing to bet that many evangelical Christians are in support of a hijab ban.  It's really about the hijab, not religion in public per se.

So I don't think you've nearly established that banning hijabs in public is only consistent with secular views, or is an extreme representation of them.  In some cases, yes.  But not many.

lagatta

This morning I've been perusing the website of DAL, Droit au logement (Right to Housing) an activist housing group that is known for organizing occupations of buildings kept empty for speculative purposes. They have a little exhibit of the drawings Charlie Hebdo cartoonists have done for their publications. http://droitaulogement.org/ I can't seem to copy any of the drawings though.

These drawings are explicitly anticapitalist (and some are explicitly antiracist). Doubt they would be to the tastes of US Republican Randian types.

6079_Smith_W

NDPP wrote:

Hey NS,

Yeah I get it.  CH, Philippe Val, Vilks,  Pam Geller and our friend 6079, they're just 'Defenders of the basic values in Western Culture including freedom of expression.' Right. Got it...

Yes, and evidently we're all  American Republican Ayn Rand fans who support the state of Israel and call their opponents savages too

http://news.yahoo.com/copenhagen-police-shoot-kill-man-shot-them-0517574...

Actually, if anyone is an ideological ally with Mr. Netanyahu here, it is the killer.

 

NDPP

Behind the Great Western Firewall is the Ugly Truth

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.ca/2015/02/behind-great-western-firewall-i...

"...As all false-flags are used to manipulate the masses after the fact, it is happening in spades, thanks to Charlie Hebdo. France's authorities are already telling about how Charlie Hebdo is France's 9/11 and the government will be passing a Patriot Act law, like the United States. Sayonara to Liberte, Fraternite, Egalite.

Charlie Hebdo. The whole thing stinks to high heaven..."

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
But it's easy to think of many people advocating such bans who are themselves religious and would argue for greater religious freedom in some aspects.

I've heard it suggested that, functionally, the most pious of believers are really atheists who make ONE exception.

lagatta

vineyardsaker is one of the weirdest sites I've seen in a long time. No way I'm wading through that stuff.

Yes, of course people who shoot up synagogues, Jewish schools and businesses have the same aim, "cleanse" the target country of Jews, and then good old Bibi would jump in again (as he did) and say Danish Jews should all move to Israel. I pity any Dane who has to endure the traffic chaos in Israel or any other country in the Levant. They'll be far more likely to be killed while riding their Danish bicycles in Israel than by a "lone gunman" in Copenhagen.

Edited to add: The Romans called Christian converts "atheists" because the latter didn't worship "the Gods".

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

I saw a news article earlier claiming that the Chapel Hill shooter "believed in atheism".

Isn't that like saying that most Canadians "believe in not believing in Unicorns"?

Our aUnicornism defines us. :)

6079_Smith_W

There's a big difference, Magoo. I posted an article in the thread about the Chapel Hill shooting that points out the distinction pretty clearly. Suffice it to say that the notion that Hitchens, Harris and Dawkins have have a common cause based on nothing is absurd.

and @ lagatta

18th and 19th century deists, whose beliefs are actually quite similar to a lot of modern reform religious people, were also called atheists, because they didn't believe the more fundamentalist dogma that god had a direct hand in everything we do.

Unionist

Meh, didn't work...

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
There's a big difference, Magoo. I posted an article in the thread about the Chapel Hill shooting that points out the distinction pretty clearly. Suffice it to say that the notion that Hitchens, Harris and Dawkins have have a common cause based on nothing is absurd.

Well, I suppose some people would make a very specific point of hectoring you to not believe in Unicorns, while others simply don't believe in Unicorns (nor leprochauns, wood nymphs, werewolves, poltergeists, burning bushes that speak English, and so on).

Shame that we aren't allowed to add any new words to the English language to differentiate between Hitchens and someone who just feels no reason to believe in invisible superheroes.

swallow swallow's picture

The poll, of course, is opinions in the USA. Woudl be interesting to read opinion divided up the same way in Canada, or, oh, let's say France. 

[img]http://islam.ru/en/sites/default/files/img/story/2014/07/PG-2014-05-12-E...

lagatta

"Critical" is too kind. I'm very critical of many strains of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus (while less known than the monotheists, their fundies are as nasty as any others) and some varieties of non-believers, but I heard quite a few bigoted things in Italy the last time I was there. The current immigration from the Maghreb, the Levant, Somalia, some Balkan countries, West African countries and places I'm doubtless forgetting is not nearly as rooted in Italy as in France or the UK. When I was studying there, oh about 25 years ago, most of the Maghrebis and South-of-Sahara Africans (the groups we knew best and had friends from) were young men, transient immigrants, part student, part casual underemployed labour. This has of course changed in the meantime and their are family groups, but it remains far more recent.

Italy will have to find means of better integrating immigrants. I think they still have the mindset of being a poor country that is a net exporter of migrants to "America", to "Buenosairé e Brocolino" as an old Calabrian interviewee said to me, and later to northern Europe. There are very serious economic problems in Italy now, but they aren't the problems of an underdeveloped country, except in some pockets in the far South.

6079_Smith_W

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Shame that we aren't allowed to add any new words to the English language to differentiate between Hitchens and someone who just feels no reason to believe in invisible superheroes.

I count myself in the latter camp, Magoo; I think Hitchens is a fine writer, but ideologically I have almost nothing in common with those three. In that sense you have it right; what they campaign for isn't really atheism at all, IMO.

And more on the situation in Copenhagen:

http://tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/128077/hiding-judaism-in-c...

 

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Personally, I try to differentiate by referring to "small a" atheists ("I don't believe in God the way I don't believe in vampires") and "big A" atheists ("I shall not sleep so long as anyone continues to believe in a god").

But so far it hasn't caught on.  :(

It's almost like some people DON'T WANT there to be a difference.

NDPP

Predictably Netanyahu calls Europe's Jews 'home' to the stolen-land:

 

After Copenhagen Bibi Tells Europe's Jews to Come 'Home'

http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/international/after-copenhagen-attack-...

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has called on Jews in Europe to move to Israel in the wake of an attack on a synagogue in Copenhagen..."

6079_Smith_W

@ Magoo

Yup. I agree.

NS NS's picture

Amnesty International alarmed by France's crackdown on freedom of expression France faces ‘litmus test’ for freedom of expression as dozens arrested in wake of attacks

The arrests and prosecutions are the first to be carried out under the new November 2014 counterterrorism law. They are based on a criminal code article under which “inciting” or “defending” terrorism carries a sentence of up to five years in prison and a fine of EUR 45,000, and up to seven years and a EUR 100,000 fine if it involved posting something online.

While “incitement” and “defence of terrorism” were already offences in France, the November 2014 law moved them from the press law to the criminal code. This means the process can be fast-tracked by the authorities, which has happened in several of this week’s cases.

More racially targeted crackdown on free speech:

 A 16 year old was taken into custody for posting on Facebook a picture said to justify terrorism

Police question 8 year old boy said to defend CH attack

 

NS NS's picture

 Infographic spells out eight "tell-tale signs" of radicalization for people to watch out for in others.

Cant make this shit up!

 

 

1. They are suspicious of old friends.

2. They reject their family members.

 3. They suddenly change their eating habits.

4. They drop out of school or vocational training.

5. They stop listening to music.

6. They do not watch television or go to cinemas.

7. They stop playing sports.

8. They change their attire.

9. They visit violent websites.

 

All of France is rolling its eyes.

 "In fact, the campaign to #StopDjihadism isn't about identifying potential jihadists, it's about describing unemployed people," said one response. "The government invites you to be wary of those who do not eat baguettes," said another skeptically.

While the efforts of the French government are to be applauded (French teens have been specifically targeted as potential converts to the cause by Islamic State militants, even those from French or atheist backgrounds) this reductive infographic turns the complicated issue of religious and political radicalization into a shopping list of behaviors that nearly anyone can exhibit. Unless France wants to turn into post-9/11 America, where "terror alerts" volleyed so swiftly between yellows and oranges that the entire exercise became meaningless, it should tone down the alarmist rhetoric — at least where the baguettes are concerned.

NDPP

Alleged Terrorist Gunman Shot Dead in Copenhagen

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/02/16/cope-f16.html

"...Once again, a man involved in a deadly terrorist attack was known to the police and security services. He was also 'on the radar' of the intelligence services.

He reportedly was 22, born in Denmark and known to police due to his connection with armed gangs and convictions for violent offences and dealing in weapons. The head of Danish intelligence told reporters that police were waiting to determine whether he had traveled to Syria or Iraq.

Once again, events follow a pattern strikingly similar to the attack on Charlie Hebdo: A provocation is staged based on whipping up hostility to Muslims..."

6079_Smith_W

Worth reading in full. Not just for this bit:

Quote:

One way is to say that, if you do not offend my sensibilities, I will refrain from offending yours. That approach sounds nice, and it’s popular in many quarters, but if applied in a consistent and democratic way it will lead to a tyranny of silence. In a multicultural and digital world, it’s very difficult to say anything that won’t be perceived as offensive to somebody either in your own society or in a far-away country...

.. to claim that the Holocaust could have been prevented if only anti-Semitic speech and Nazi propaganda had been banned has little basis in reality. Leading Nazis such as Joseph Goebbels, Theodor Fritsch, and Julius Streicher were all prosecuted for anti-Semitic speech. Streicher served two prison sentences. Rather than deterring the Nazis and countering anti-Semitism, the many court cases served as effective public-relations machinery, affording Streicher the kind of attention he would never have found in a climate of a free and open debate. In the years from 1923 to 1933, Der Stürmer [Streicher’s newspaper] was either confiscated or editors taken to court on no fewer than thirty-six occasions. The more charges Streicher faced, the greater became the admiration of his supporters.

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/copenhagen-speech-violence

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
The government invites you to be wary of those who do not eat baguettes

Also, people with no eyes, hands or feet, evidently.

swallow swallow's picture

That's a pretty appalling info-graphic, but the translations should be full ones to actually understand what's being said -- there is a world of difference between "they stop playing sports" and "they stop playing sports because the sports are mixed [gender]," for instance. 

Was good to hear on the radio that Danish Jewish leaders say they will not gomto Israel because Denmark is their home. 

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/denmarks-jews-defiant-attack-vow-stay-185206401.html]"We appreciate the invitation, but we are Danish citizens, this is our country," Dan Rosenberg Asmussen, chairman of the Jewish Society in Denmark, told Reuters as he offered condolences to mourners at the synagogue."[/url]

Damn straight.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
That's a pretty appalling info-graphic, but the translations should be full ones to actually understand what's being said -- there is a world of difference between "they stop playing sports" and "they stop playing sports because the sports are mixed [gender]," for instance.

I totally agree, but I think that's what the infographic does say (if my Grade 12 French is any good, after 30 years).

Perhaps a Francophone babbler could translate the entirety?

swallow swallow's picture

What I posted is the full (loose) translation of what the infographic says. What NS posted is a translation of only the text in blue, omitting the text in black. I've added the omitted parts in very loose translation in bold below. 

NS wrote:

1. They are suspicious of old friends who they now consider "impure"

2. They reject their family members. 

 3. They suddenly change their eating habits.

4. They drop out of school or vocational training because the studies offered are part of a conspiracy

5. They stop listening to music because it takes away from their "mission"

6. They do not watch television or go to cinemas becasue they might see images that are "forbidden"

7. They stop playing sports because they are mixed

8. They change their attire particularly girls, with clothes that conceal the body

9. They visit violent websites or social netowrks of a radical or extremist nature

This is not to justify the infographic, of course, which remains disturbing in its imagery (oh noez, they aren't eating baguette!), just to provide a fuller rather than partial translation. Others can no doubt translate more elegantly.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Thanks for the extras.

Quote:
This is not to justify the infographic, of course, which remains disturbing in its imagery (oh noez, they aren't eating baguette!)

Aren't many "sign" graphics like that?  I know people like to make a bit of fun of them sometimes ("No martinis or scottie dogs on skateboards!") but I'm not sure a loaf of bread to represent food is all that disturbing... or at any rate it's got some stiff competition from people whose heads aren't actually connected to their bodies by a neck.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Here's a similar infographic about depression:

[IMG]http://i57.tinypic.com/e037up.jpg[/IMG]

Evidently not eating a baguette could indicate radicalization, but not eating Swiss cheese could indicate depression.  As could a crucifix, lightning, arrows pointing wherever, a mild incline, and Pac Man.

voice of the damned

In the wake of the Keegstra Affair, Alberta high-school students were "treated" to a well-meaning anti-racism campaign put forth by the Ministry Of Education. NEXT...

voice of the damned

Looking back, it's obvious the whole thing was cribbed from Adorno's theory of the "authoritarian personality", which is also the basis for some of those checklists people pass around to "prove" that right-wingers are all mentally ill. I guess the Ministry had hired a philosophy MA who was chomping at the bit to prove that his degree wasn't totally useless.

voice of the damned

One of the things we got to read was a booklet about "The Prejudiced Personality", which contained a checklist of things that supposedly tell you if someone is a bigot eg. "undue respect for authority", which struck me as an odd thing for teachers to be warning their students against.

lagatta

A baguette is a logical representation of food in France or much of southern Europe, although of course nowadays the role of bread of any kind has diminished in 1st-world diets. And baguettes are eaten as much in the "no-go-zones" as anywhere else; moreover several of the recent winnters of the Best Baguette award (very serious in France) have been from the Maghreb or West Africa.

A flatter, denser bread is also common in Maghrebi communities - it isn't as flat as a pita. Similar bread is eaten in nearby Sicily. But it seems easier to draw a baguette to indicate "bread" - baguettes are very common throughout the Maghreb... and also in the former "French Indochina", whence our lovely Vietnamese banh mi.

That depression graphic is very discriminatory. I guess Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and atheists can't be suicidal?

It is also strange to show loss of appetite alone when depression can also lead to overeating, especially "seasonal depression".

Unionist

swallow wrote:

Was good to hear on the radio that Danish Jewish leaders say they will not go to Israel because Denmark is their home. 

[url=http://news.yahoo.com/denmarks-jews-defiant-attack-vow-stay-185206401.html]"We appreciate the invitation, but we are Danish citizens, this is our country," Dan Rosenberg Asmussen, chairman of the Jewish Society in Denmark, told Reuters as he offered condolences to mourners at the synagogue."[/url]

Damn straight.

Damn straight is right.

Netanyahu the anti-Semite (my definition: someone who, like Hitler, believes Jews have no place among other peoples) is just desperate to find replacements for all the Israelis who are leaving or dreaming of leaving:

[url=http://www.haaretz.com/news/features/bye-the-beloved-country-why-almost-..., the beloved country - why almost 40 percent of Israelis are thinking of emigrating[/url]

 

josh

A group of Muslims plan on forming a "peace ring" around a synagogue in Oslo, Norway, following the recent attack on a synagogue in Copenhagen.

Hajrad Arshad, the 17-year-old organizing the event, told Norway broadcaster NRK that the group wants to "extinguish the prejudices people have against Jews and against Muslims."

"We think that after the terrorist attacks in Copenhagen, it is the perfect time for us Muslims to distance ourselves from the harassment of Jews that is happening," she said.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/muslims-protect-norway-synagogue?utm_content=buffer685fe&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer

lagatta

Yeah, Israel never mentions the very large number of immigrants to there who are leaving again (lots of French people return home). And quite a few grandchildren and great-grandchildren of refugees from Nazism have moved to Germany (I believe all refugees from Nazi Germany and Austria can claim the citizenship their ancestors were stripped of, along with everything else, in the case of the "lucky" ones who were able to escape alive).

I'm horrified by Bibi's intent to make the rest of the world "Judenrein", and his absolute disregard for the lives and feelings of Jewish people in France, Denmark, Argentina and other places.

Pages