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6079_Smith_W

@ lagatta

Though the Germans certainly have similar cutting satire; that's why I framed it that way. I don't think there really is a divide at all, linguistic or cultural. As I said, there is just as much of this in our society, if one cares to look. The main difference is removing this political commentary from its context, and that is more a case of not being aware of what is going on in that part of the world.

(contrary to the notion some raise that we are focusing on news from there at the expense of other parts of the worl).

 

 

 

lagatta

That is true, so it isn't really a Germanic vs Latin divide.

6079_Smith_W

Even Britain HAD a strong cabaret culture, and some of the battles over this happened in the States. And some of the satire in Russia tends toward the profane and scatological. So it is not as if even those places where the dominant culture is prude, and the state more repressive, don't have a tradition of biting satire.

I think there is some truth in these divides we are talking about, but it is actually a lot more complex than that.

 

 

WWWTT

voice of the damned wrote:
For the record, I generally use similar terminolgy to describe all froms of political violence. That might sometimes include the word "terrorism", but I'd apply it equally to anti-abortion fanatics just as soon as I'd apply it to the people who shot up the Hebdo.

Ok then I got it. I'll make a mental note and hopefully remember your writing style.

As a side note. I never use the word terrorism to label any group.

Rob Anders strongly believed Nelson Mandela, a huge 20th century human rights hero's was a "terrorist"!

I'll let history bury that guy's reputation!

voice of the damned

Yeah. I think I usually do avoid using "terrorist" as well, if only subconsciously, probably because the word itself just screams that someone is pushing an agenda. So using it doesn't do much for one's claims to objectivity.

NDPP

G Galloway MP on CH: Islamophobia, racism and incitement

http://youtu.be/kycpOE6zkOU

NDPP

A Friend? Mais Non!  - by Ezra Levant

http://www.calgarysun.com/2015/01/16/a-friend-mais-non

"When the Muslim terrorist group, called Boko Haram, kidnapped and raped nearly 400 young Christian girls, Michelle Obama posed for a very serious picture, holding up a sign saying 'Bring Back Our Girls.'

But Barack Obama steadfastly refuses to call Muslim terrorism either Muslim or terrorism.

Of course he wouldn't go to Paris..."

 

Just wanted to congratulate all the members of the local Charlie Hebdo fan club on the roaring success of their new joint venture and introduce you to yet another illustrious member. And of course Charlie's Boko Haram cartoon of the pregnant rape victims calling for their welfare cheques is surely one of his deepest and very best! Thank heavens for France, art and freedom of speech.  5 Million copies! You've certainly shown those Muslims a thing or two about your freedom of expresson - Yes indeed! No question!

lagatta

We don't need the word terrorist in most cases; the Paris attackers were murderers. Kidnapping, murder and rape and enslavement are very serious crimes. Moreover terrorism can be thought crime. Here there are accusations supporting "terrorism", but that could be giving money and material support to Gaza (where Hamas form the majority of the government) as much as to criminal groups such as Boko Haram and ISIS. I'm sure we (the people backing the boat to Gaza; I was on the support committee, for communications and translation of course) could face such accusations.

NDPP, if Charlie had been drawing within the Canadian state, Ezra Levant would be one of their pet targets, and he would not be happy.

Galloway was an eloquent opponent of Blair's disgusting war, but he is not otherwise a progressive. He is anti-abortion rights for one thing, and I do NOT agree with the place he wants to accord to religion - ANY religion - in public life. No state funding of faith schools, and no, not to C of E ones in the UK or Catholic ones here in Québec. Secular public education only. And Charlie also was scathing in its criticism of Israel's "murderous rampage in Gaza".

He's also a bloody Unionist...

lagatta

A view from India: http://www.europe-solidaire.org/spip.php?article34172

refreshing after Galloway's pious cant.

Unionist

lagatta wrote:

He's also a bloody Unionist...

LOL.

 

6079_Smith_W

lagatta wrote:

He's also a bloody Unionist...

Well he can sure rant like Paisley. Having a hard time picturing him in a petit bourgeois bowler banging a drum.

Perhaps his scruffy dog look is the faux lefty equivalent.

and @ NDPP nice bit of shaming rhetoric at the end there. I actually checked the article to see you weren't quoting Levant. It is kind of his style. As much as some like to use Muslims as a foil, I don't think anyone needs to teach them anything. Boko Haram is an example of many of them being victims of the extremists, just like the attacks in France.

 

voice of the damned

NDPP: Come on. Levant also denounces Saudi Arabia for its sexiam and homophobia(because he wants people to buy Alberta oil instead). I guess any progressive who does the same should be stigmatized as an ally of Levant? That would be a lot of progressives, judging by the abuse tossed at the late king these past couple of days.

voice of the damned

What's particularly odd about this whole debate is that there have been emintently condemnable examples of western hypocrisy and opportnism ensuing from the Hebdo affair, eg. the crackdown in France, Netanyahu's demagogury etc. (next paragraph)

voice of the damned

delete, double post

voice of the damned

Yet so many progressives seem intent on arguing that not only does the west exhibit double-standards around democratic rights(a valid point indeed) but the Hebdo itself was nothing more than a mouthpiece for western imperialism and racism. And, I am sorry, but at this point, I am going to say that that case is being argued pretty demonstrably against the bulk of evidence presented.

lagatta

I wanted to address another point. Yes, I respond a lot about France and not about some of the debates concerning countries in the global South. Note that I have virtually NOTHING to say about Ukraine, a country arguably far "whiter" than France. Simply because I know very little about it, don't speak either Ukranian or Russian, and have never been there. I have had quite a bit to say about Palestine, because I've long been involved in Palestine solidarity, and about the Maghreb, as I have many Maghrebi friends here, in France and in the relevant countries. And of course about the Southern Cone countries of South America, though they are culturally "Western", with marginalized Indigenous minorities, because I was involved in solidarity with those countries even before the coups in Chile, Uruguay, Argentina and Paraguay.

I read a lot of threads where I have simply nothing intelligent to say.

I've been on extended stays (studies, research, participation in conferences) in France and in Italy, and am fluent in those languages, so of course I'd have more to say.

And by no means are all my friends in France "white Europeans". There are fewer established people of African and other "global South" origins in Italy, but I do have friends there from both subsaharan Africa and the Maghreb.

Pondering

Charile Hebdo has a bawdy, burlesque style of black humour. Not for the weak hearted.

http://www.europe-solidaire.org/spip.php?article34172

Charlie Hebdo was never intended to be mainstream so why should it be mainstreamed now? 

That they were murdered for their work doesn't change its nature. They were/are left-wing shock jocks. That their intented message wasn't racist doesn't mean it can't be interpreted that way. Not everyone has had access to the elite leftwing political education that allows them to see the humour in humiliating caricatures.

6079_Smith_W

6079_Smith_W

voice of the damned wrote:
What's particularly odd about this whole debate is that there have been emintently condemnable examples of western hypocrisy and opportnism ensuing from the Hebdo affair, eg. the crackdown in France, Netanyahu's demagogury etc.

And those things were mocked in the issue of CH published after the murders.

Pondering wrote:

Not everyone has had access to the elite leftwing political education that allows them to see the humour in humiliating caricatures.

Again, I think you have it backwards. Who do you think is wringing their hands and spinning this as being built on the entire history of western Imperialism, rape jokes, and everything else under the sun. Not the fart joke crew, that's for sure.

 

swallow swallow's picture

NDPP wrote:

Just wanted to congratulate all the members of the local Charlie Hebdo fan club on the roaring success of their new joint venture and introduce you to yet another illustrious member. 

There is no "fan club" for Charlie Hebdo here; if you think that you should go back and read the thread again. If you wanted, you might even try discussing ideas with other people; it's often done on "discussion" boards. 

 

Pondering

6079_Smith_W wrote:

voice of the damned wrote:
What's particularly odd about this whole debate is that there have been emintently condemnable examples of western hypocrisy and opportnism ensuing from the Hebdo affair, eg. the crackdown in France, Netanyahu's demagogury etc.

And those things were mocked in the issue of CH published after the murders.

Pondering wrote:

Not everyone has had access to the elite leftwing political education that allows them to see the humour in humiliating caricatures.

Again, I think you have it backwards. Who do you think is wringing their hands and spinning this as being built on the entire history of western Imperialism, rape jokes, and everything else under the sun. Not the fart joke crew, that's for sure.

I couldn't care less who is wringing their hands. The people being humiliated by the caricatures and by rape culture suffer harm. The audience for Charlie Hebdo is privileged. The cartoonists have a right to free speech. They should not have been murdered. That is a separate issue from the evaluation of their work. Their work was not mainstream prior to their deaths for reasons that did not change after they were murdered.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
I couldn't care less who is wringing their hands. The people being humiliated by the caricatures and by rape culture suffer harm.

Isn't it funny how the degree to which any individual is "humiliated" or suffers "harm" seems to be directly proportional to the rigidity and fundamentalism of their religious beliefs?

Otherwise how is it that there could be SO MANY Muslims in the world who don't seem to give a rat's ass if someone draws Mohammed?

Anyhoo, the guy being "humiliated" died in 632 AD.  Just sayin'.

6079_Smith_W

Pondering wrote:

I couldn't care less who is wringing their hands.

But this is the second time (at least) you have come up with this bizarre anti-intellectual argument. In fact, most of the grand logical leaps linked to here condemning CH are from from well-read, well-educated people (most notably Mr. Chomsky). Personally I think it has less to do with booklearning than with a politically partisan, doctrinaire world-view.

But I do think you have it completely backwards. I don't think it takes much brains to get their brand of satire at all. A slightly open mind, perhaps. Over-education? I wouldn't say so, but anti-intellectualism is itself a slur with a pretty long and creepy political history.

 

NDPP

Open your eyes. See what you're actually supporting. Now the boot comes down. Just watch the global 'no-show' of all CH's 'defenders of free speech', now that their support for it is truly needed...Finkelstein is right. It was always 'Sadism not Satire'. And a photo-op for Hollande, Netanyahu, Poroshenko and the GWOT 2.0. Congratulations. Enjoy your CH you lovers of freedom-satire...

Glorification of Terrorism: A Teenager Prosecuted in France Because of a Cartoon on Facebook

http://vineyardsaker.blogspot.ca/2015/01/glorification-of-terrorism-teen...

"The current situation is, to say the least paradoxical. But since last week, it has become clear that a stiffening is truly taking place in France with the appearance of dozens of lawsuits based on the 'defense or glorification of terrorism' offence, which carries a maximum penalty of 5 years imprisonment and a fine of 75,000 euros (or 7 years in prison and 100,000 euros fine if the Internet is involved, because the latter is now an aggravating circumstance).

The multiplication of procedures for glorification of terrorism poses the question of the limits of freedom of expression, which seems to be getting cracked down on since the attacks. A situation that alarms many non-governmental organisations such as the League of Human Rights, which fears the reflex of drastic security measures, and Amnesty International.

Goebbels was in favor of freedom of speech for views he liked..."

 

Full Dossier: The Political Situation in France

http://socialistorganizer.org/full-dossier-the-political-situation-in-fr...

"While there were 4 million in the streets on January 11, there were more than 5 million people in France of North African origin - mainly youth - who wanted nothing to do with the march.

Their absence from the demonstrations, and from the continued tributes and political theatrics was glaring, as was the absence of people from West Africa or Caribbean origin..."

voice of the damned

NDPP: I don't think that Socialist Organizer article really proves what you think it does. According to the article, one of the murdered cartoonists, far from being a right-wing "sadist", was actually a contributor to a trotskyite journal that is affiliiated with Socialist Organizer. (See the paragraph next to the first reproduced cartoon.)

6079_Smith_W

Who has said they support the crackdown by French authorities, NDPP?  I believe I was the first one to mention Dieudonné's arrest. I wasn't aware the order came from the CH offices.

 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
If satire does its job properly, it's going to offend one group or another, no question. “There's no possibility of being witty without a little ill-nature,”wrote Richard Brinsley Sheridan in the 18th century, when satire ruled the literary world. “The malice of a good thing is the barb that makes it stick.”

...

“The truth,” wrote Oscar Wilde, “is rarely pure, and never simple.” And satire is simply an attempt to get at some version of the truth, no matter how smudged or complicated.

Horace, Juvenal, Pope, Swift, Richler — or any of the countless other wits through the ages who made their marks with defiant, deft sword strokes — allunderstood that. And Mike Constable, sitting at his sharp-edged drawing boardin Toronto, understands it, too. Three cheers for him.

Three cheers for all the brave, bright artists who follow the satirist's calling. A culture that can't laugh at itself, even in an anguish of discomfort, is a pallid thing. And a civilization that has lost its capacity for that dark, cathartic laughter is a poor and barren place.

From here.  And by "here", I mean here -- rabble.ca.

Who else remembers rabble publishing (and defending their choice to do so) a cartoon of the Pope as a Nazi?

If you don't, strap yourself into the time machine and see how little has changed, here, here, here or here.  And that's just the first few of them -- feel free to Google for even more.  "Nous avons Charlie".

Pondering

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Pondering wrote:

I couldn't care less who is wringing their hands.

But this is the second time (at least) you have come up with this bizarre anti-intellectual argument. In fact, most of the grand logical leaps linked to here condemning CH are from from well-read, well-educated people (most notably Mr. Chomsky). Personally I think it has less to do with booklearning than with a politically partisan, doctrinaire world-view.

But I do think you have it completely backwards. I don't think it takes much brains to get their brand of satire at all. A slightly open mind, perhaps. Over-education? I wouldn't say so, but anti-intellectualism is itself a slur with a pretty long and creepy political history.

How is it anti-intellectual to recognize that material is interpreted differently by different audiences? Why do you think their circulation was so small? Their material was intended to be subversive not mainstream. It is not "anti-intellectual" to say so.

Charlie Hebdo is not beyond criticism. Criticizing their work or the impact of it is not justifying their murders. It's two separate topics.

As to getting their brand of satire, it seems to me one would have to be familiar with world politics and the history of satire in France. These are not topics most people in the world are familiar with. Even if they were it doesn't mean they would appreciate the vulgarity. That doesn't mean they aren't intelligent.

Who are all these Muslims praising Charlie Hebdo's work? Do you have any links?

6079_Smith_W

@ Pondering

But you didn't say it was just a matter of "different audiences". You said those who didn't have access to elite left-wing political education weren't likely to understand CH's satire. And upthread you claimed that those with less education weren't likely to get it.

I'm just looking at some of the more vocal critics like Chomsky and Glen Greenwald and saying that is nonsense. For that matter, I woldn't assume that religious people who are offended are uneducated either. But frankly I think both comments sound like anti-intellectual slurs.

And who cares if everyone in the world gets it? All that matters is that some people in France get it. It really is no one else's business, even if everyone is trying to put them under the microscope. And no one is saying they can't be criticized. .

As for your last question, I'll just ask you to go back and read the thread again. If you really really can't find them, PM me. I am a little tired of having to repeat again and again.

 

 

NDPP

voice of the damned wrote:
NDPP: I don't think that Socialist Organizer article really proves what you think it does. According to the article, one of the murdered cartoonists, far from being a right-wing "sadist", was actually a contributor to a trotskyite journal that is affiliiated with Socialist Organizer. (See the paragraph next to the first reproduced cartoon.)

Hey VOTD, Yes I read it. (I don't only post things I agree with or that agree with me.) Here's something from another CH cartoonist...

'Charlie Hebdo' Not Racist? If You Say So  -  by Oliver Cryan

http://rabble.ca/comment/1479185#comment-1479185

And something new as well:

Hook-Nosed Jew vs Mohammed Cartoons. What's the Difference?

http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.638243

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/1.638240

"It may feel uncomfortable to ask out loud whether we are upholding a double standard if we protest the publication of cartoons of hook-nosed Jews while supporting the publication of cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed. That, after all, is a question that could get people labeled 'anti-Semites' or 'defender of terrorism'.

But it is a legitimate question well worth addressing..."

NDPP

Western Govts Breed Terrorists - and Blame it on Muslims - Head of Anti-Islamophobic Collective (and vid)

http://rt.com/shows/sophieco/226111-terrorist-attacks-france-muslims/

"Leading figure in French Central Council of Muslims, Abdallah Zekri on Sophie&Co"

6079_Smith_W

NDPP wrote:
Hook-Nosed Jew vs Mohammed Cartoons. What's the Difference?

Couldn't read the editorial, but I'm curious how anyone could think the two remotely similar.

voice of the damned

NDPP:

Thanks for the Cryan link. It's hard to square their involvement with Bernard-Henri Lévy with the pro-Palestinian stance taken by some of their cartoonists. Next paragraph.

voice of the damned

I'd assume that they did not have an over-arching house policy on most issues, and that their contributors were more-or-less free to explore various tendencies. From the evidence presented, I'm gonna stand by my assessment that Finkelstien's Der Strumer comparison was unjustified.

6079_Smith_W

In fact there has been at least one rebuttal from a staff member to cryans opinion. Linked upthread, I believe.

NDPP

Different strokes I guess. For me the Cryan link just confirmed what I saw. Vast preponderance of anti-Muslim hate provocation. Vile could barely stomach it. I'll stay with Finkelstein.

here's an alternative url for the haaretz oped above

http://www.scoopnest.com/user/haaretzcom/557895408882421760

6079_Smith_W

NDPP wrote:

Russian FM Lieberman Orders Party to Hand Out Free Copies of CH

Freudian slip NDPP? Oh no... someone might get shot!

Wait.... that happened already. Never mind.

Besides, 84 percent of Palestinians already believe Israel murdered them, so I question how NOT making the magazine available (which had been on shelves for several years prior to the attack) is going to make anything better :

http://www.truthrevolt.org/news/it-was-jews-palestinian-authority-blames...

 

NDPP

Israeli FM Lieberman Orders Party to Hand Out Free Copies of CH

http://rt.com/news/226371-israel-lieberman-charlie-hebdo/

Avigdor Lieberman - another 'satire and free speech' fan.  Je suis Zionism...

NDPP

Moving between Ukraine thread and this one - funny...

6079_Smith_W

He's Russian, NDPP, not Ukrainian,  and he has only carved off one Ukrainian oblast and parts of two others so far. I don't think he wants anyone to notice, so you should be careful.

But we're already moving between the Israel thread, and the great shirtless peacemaker has used his powers of deduction to blame the shooting on the western powers. If you really want to draw Ukraine into the conspiracy though:

6079_Smith_W
NDPP

 Helric Fredou Suicide: Important Updates

http://thewallwillfall.wordpress.com/2015/01/25/helric-fredou-suicide-im...

"...According to the mother of Helric Fredou, police officers with whom she spoke expressly advised that she would not have access to the autopsy report.

Helric Fredou's service weapon was not equipped with a silencer. His mother has asked a basic question to his colleagues: 'Why didn't you hear anything when he was shot at about midnight? Laconic reply: 'His office was well insulated.'

Helric Fredou's attending physician, with whom his mother spoke Thursday, Jan 22, refuses to accept Fredou's alleged 'depression' and supposed 'burn out'.

Finally, another odd fact deserves to be reported here: apart from the author of these lines, NO journalist has contacted - from January 8 onward - the mother or sister of Helric Fredou to shed light on the case."

nycndp

NDPP wrote:

Charlie Hebdo serves a very important purpose for French imperialism, and that is why its virulent racism has been protected at the very time that protests against it are prohibited."

Maybe the people that planned the attacks should have thought about "blowback" themselves.

swallow swallow's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
If satire does its job properly, it's going to offend one group or another, no question. “There's no possibility of being witty without a little ill-nature,”wrote Richard Brinsley Sheridan in the 18th century, when satire ruled the literary world. “The malice of a good thing is the barb that makes it stick.”

...

“The truth,” wrote Oscar Wilde, “is rarely pure, and never simple.” And satire is simply an attempt to get at some version of the truth, no matter how smudged or complicated.

Horace, Juvenal, Pope, Swift, Richler — or any of the countless other wits through the ages who made their marks with defiant, deft sword strokes — allunderstood that. And Mike Constable, sitting at his sharp-edged drawing boardin Toronto, understands it, too. Three cheers for him.

Three cheers for all the brave, bright artists who follow the satirist's calling. A culture that can't laugh at itself, even in an anguish of discomfort, is a pallid thing. And a civilization that has lost its capacity for that dark, cathartic laughter is a poor and barren place.

From here.  And by "here", I mean here -- rabble.ca.

Who else remembers rabble publishing (and defending their choice to do so) a cartoon of the Pope as a Nazi?

If you don't, strap yourself into the time machine and see how little has changed, here, here, here or here.  And that's just the first few of them -- feel free to Google for even more.  "Nous avons Charlie".

See, those threads jsut make me feel sad about people who aren't here any more. And depressed to remember that we once debated equal marraige too, admittedly. 

Wow, tenth anniversary of the Affaire Constable. Whoda think it. 

MegB

Continued here.

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