Join the discussion about Charlie Hebdo - closed

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6079_Smith_W

I have seen them plenty of them NS. And like it or not, there is plenty of racist satire. I just posted a link to some.

And if someone gets charged with a hate crime then evidently there is a process to deal with that.

But if you are going to conflate hate crime with legitimate satire, even offensive and racist, and tar an entire publication with it, you are going to have to do better than that.

And it still begs the question of why you are dancing around making a link between their content and this murder, while denying that you are doing so.

 

6079_Smith_W

x

NS NS's picture

Ikosmos, here is more background on the two brothers

"Paris Terrorist was Radicalized by Bush’s Iraq War, Abu Ghraib Torture" by Juan Cole

They would tell their families that they were going to study in Syria.  And they would spend some time in hard line Salafi schools.  But then they would slip across the border into Iraq.

Sharif was about to go to Iraq in 2005, himself, to fight Bush’s troops there (which he saw as aggressive foreign occupiers), but he and a friend were arrested and interrogated by the French police. 

In 2008 he and three others were tried as members of the 19th Arondissement Cell, on charges of funneling a dozen young French Muslims into Iraq from 2003 to 2005 (one ended up in Falluja).  They typically joined al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia, then headed by the Jordanian Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.  There had been no al-Qaeda in Iraq under Saddam Hussein, whose secret police issued an APB for Zarqawi in summer, 2002.  Bush’s invasion and occupation led to the founding of ‘al-Qaeda in Mesopotamia.

http://www.juancole.com/2015/01/terrorist-radicalized-torture.html

duncan cameron

duplicate

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Charlie Hebdo also made a habit of mocking other victims of terrorist attacks.

Samples to follow.

 

 

Here is another.

 

 

lagatta

http://www.gregpalast.com/wp-content/uploads/TedRall-NewsRoomafterParisS...

Quoting Greg Palast on Ted Rall:

Rall notes, “There could never be a mass shooting of staff political cartoonists in the United States, because American newspapers and magazines have fired almost all of them.”
 
Instead, cartoonists, even one’s of Rall’s international stature, get paid at sweatshop piece-work rates.  He’d be better off sewing sneakers for Nike.

NS NS's picture

In 1987 Israel assassinated caricature artists Naji al-Ali. Today it pretends outrage at the murder in Paris & claims it has freedom

Naji al-Ali is one of the most influential commentators on Palestine.Naji al-Ali is still the most popular artist in the Arab world, loved for his defense of the ordinary people, and for his criticism of repression and despotism. Paradoxically, strict censorship and widespread illiteracy in the Arab world helped him to achieve his remarkable success.

Naji al-Ali: The timeless conscience of Palestine

http://electronicintifada.net/content/naji-al-ali-timeless-conscience-palestine/5166

 

6079_Smith_W

ikosmos wrote:

Charlie Hebdo also made a habit of mocking other victims of terrorist attacks.

really?

I think they'd get it:

Next?

 

NDPP

ikosmos wrote:

Pepe Escobar wrote:
Cui bono, then, with killing Charlie? Only those whose agenda is to demonize Islam. Not even a bunch of brainwashed fanatics would pull off the Charlie carnage to show people who accuse them of being barbarians that they are, in fact, barbarians. French intel at least has concluded that this is no underwear bomber stunt. This is a pro job. That happens to take place just a few days after France recognizes Palestinian statehood. And just a few days after General Hollande demanded the lifting of sanctions against the Russian "threat".

False flag? Maybe.

Who profits from killing Charlie?

Quote:
this was a pro job. And staying with option one, this points right at - what else - blowback. Yes, they could be Daesh/ISIS/ISIL mercenaries trained by NATO (crucially, France included) in Turkey and/or Jordan. But it might get even false-flag nastier. They could also be former or current French special forces.

Escobar nails it.

6079_Smith_W

His head to the table, you mean?

He might be on a bit more solid footing blaming it on the families of Charles deGaulle, or Charles Schultz.

NS NS's picture

Ikosmos, 

Charlie Hebdo mocked victims of dictatorship massacres in Egypt with a cover proclaiming "The Quran is shit... doesnt even stop bullets"  http://www.afrik.com/crise-en-egypte-le-coran-c-est-de-la-merde-selon-charlie-hebdo …

 

"ISIS Leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi criticised for wearing Disney wristwatch during fiery sermon"

http://www.panarabiaenquirer.com/wordpress/abu-bakr-al-baghdadi-ridiculed-wearing-disney-wristwatch/

Contrary to popular believe, Muslims and Arabs are capable of mocking extremists and leaders of their countries

White European & western men do not have a monopoly on satire

NDPP

Liberal Condemning of Charlie Hebdo Killings Offers Little Civilising Solace  -  by John Hilley

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/

"While much of the liberal political class and media make lofty proclamations and pitch the Paris killings as a red line issue over free speech, they have virtually nothing equivalent or worse to say about such states crossing the 'civilizational' line into mass and sustained terrorism.

Men in jihadist garb killing journalists is barbaric, while men in suits ordering others in uniform to mass murder and maim millions of innocents has seemingly no such 'landmark' significance..."

NS NS's picture

Charlie depicting kidnapped school girls in Nigeria by Boko Haram

Translates to "The Sexual Slaves of Boko Haram are Angry" "Where are our benefits cheques?

 

 

Black Minister of Justice Christiane Taubira as monkey

After all they are only jokes, right?

 

 

 

6079_Smith_W

The second one is about this:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/16/french-national-front-polit...

http://www.france24.com/en/20131113-france-racism-black-minister-taubira...

It may be in bad taste, but it is aimed at the far right politicians who made the comparison.

And I know the first on is a Charlie Hebdo cartoon, but I notice it is on the cover of Liberation.

I still wonder what your point is.

Webgear

Timebandit wrote:

Why was the thread title changed? If that was what I'd meant, I'd have said that. Frankly, I'd be delighted if a few participants here hadn't actually joined the discussion. Specifically you, Webgear, with your victim-blaming.

Why so sensitive? It is because some of your colleagues were killed? These forums have been filled with victim blaming for years, why should there be a change in policy now?

These journalists knew what they were doing and were attempting to provoke a response for years from the Muslims they knew they were offending. 

NDPP

The Angry Arab: I Am Certainly Not Charles Hebdo

http://angryarab.blogspot.ca/2015/01/i-am-certainly-not-charlie-hebdo.html

"...And please don't give me the notion that the magazine satirized all religions. It did not. It specialized in mocking and insulting Muslims and Islam (all Muslims and not only radical Muslims).

And no, this stance does not mean that I don't condemn the attack. But the terrorists who attacked the publication are your terrorists and not mine..."

 

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Hoooohkay. So Webgear has clarified what he meant by his above post and has earned himself a suspension until I figure out what to do about it.

NDPP

Everybody cool with that? (I'm not)

josh

NS wrote:

Charlie depicting kidnapped school girls in Nigeria by Boko Haram

Translates to "The Sexual Slaves of Boko Haram are Angry" "Where are our benefits cheques?

 

 

Black Minister of Justice Christiane Taubira as monkey

After all they are only jokes, right?

 

 

 

What's your point?

NDPP

It's Going To Get Worse For French Muslims  -  by Alan Gresh

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2015/01/it-going-get-worse-fren...

"since 2000, under its new editor Philippe Val, Charlie Hebdo shifted direction, taking a stand against Palestinians and supporting the Israeli aggression against Lebanon in 2006 - this came during the second Intifada.

At the same time, the newspaper started to launch Islamophobic campaigns. In 2006, it republished the cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad that were previously published in Denmark.

In March 2006, Val signed 'The Twelve's Manifesto: Together Against the New Totalitarianism' published in the weekly magazine L'Express, by BERNARD-HENRI-LEVY, Caroline Fouret and Antoine Sfeir.

'After having overcome Fascism, Nazism and Stalinism, the world now faces a new global threat of a totalitarian nature: Islamism...'

While claiming to stand for press freedom, Charlie Hebdo dismissed one of its star cartoonists, Sine, due to false accusations of anti-Semitism. It then came as no surprise that, when elected, President Nicolas Sarkozy promoted Philippe Val to executive editor of France-Inter (a public radio station).

Nevertheless, press freedom cannot be compromised [LOL!] and the situation currently rocking Paris is all the more condemnable showing that this could have serious consequences on the internal situation in France. It may encourage a wave of Islamophobia that overwhelms the country - as well as other European countries - and could designate Muslims as the 'internal enemy'.

Perhaps it is time to engage in a substantive debate on the 'war against terrorism' revived by the West and the 'international community'....isn't it about time to change our methods?"

onlinediscountanvils

NDPP wrote:

Everybody cool with that? (I'm not)

I post here with the full knowledge and acceptance that the mods call the shots. 

But here's me trying to parse out exactly what just happened:

NS NS's picture

Sure, the one about the Nigerian school girls being sex slaves was meant to be ironic and made in jest!

Smith, Josh spare me your sorry ass excuses for sexism and racism!

Would The New Yorker or any US publication have a doodle of Erick Holder as an ape to prove that the GOP are racist? That would never fly!

All those intl publications who are now showing the Charlie cartoons should include ALL OF THEM including the most vile homophobic, racist ones for people to judge

You do not have to ally yourself with racism, sexism, and hate-speech in order to condemn violence

I am going to sound like a broken record, but no one has yet to tell me when did it become true that to defend someone's free speech rights, one has to  embrace their ideas? That apply in all cases?

NS NS's picture

Mosques, a family in their car, a kebab shop, all attacked in france

Smells like freedom already

Kebab shop bombed, mosques attacked in France after Charlie Hebdo killings

ygtbk

NDPP wrote:

Everybody cool with that? (I'm not)

I'm actually cool with it, and agree with Catchfire's moderating decision.

(* Goes to mirror to see if goatee has sprouted *)

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
I am going to sound like a broken record, but no one has yet to tell me when did it become true that to defend someone's free speech rights, one has to  embrace their ideas?

That's never been true.  As 6079_Smith_W has been trying (in this and even in an earlier thread) to suggest is that half the time you won't, the other half almost nobody will.  Nobody needs to respect (admire, enjoy, laugh at...) the content in order to respect the right.

swallow swallow's picture

Quote:

With all that said, I’m proposing some guidelines for days like today that others are free to accept or reject as they see fit:

  1. Murder and mayhem is wrong, full stop.
  2. The perpetrators are not fighting some noble cause and no matter what the stated reason, it does not excuse the murder of innocent people.
  3. This also isn’t some epic battle between “us” and “them.” It’s a tragic crime for which people should be held accountable.
  4. This isn’t about you.

[url=http://o.canada.com/news/blog-news/charlie-hebdo-massacre-573543]Ishmael Daro[/url]

6079_Smith_W

NS wrote:

I am going to sound like a broken record, but no one has yet to tell me when did it become true that to defend someone's free speech rights, one has to  embrace their ideas?

Did anyone say that? I sure didn't. Do I need to go back and point out where I said exactly the opposite?

Since you seem so focused on pointing out offensive speech, maybe we can talk about the references in this thread to offending Muslims as if they are one and the same with the extremists who committed this murder.

Do you think that reflects the greater Muslim community? Not according to what many of them are actually saying:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/07/muslims-respond-charlie-hebdo_n...

My disagreeing with some of the things these cartoonists have published doesn't mean I am going to buy into this ridiculous and manipulative hatchet job.I support what they do.

And it isn't surprising that some racist is going to respond with an attack. But can crow a little less loudly about what you seem to think is confirmation that people will respond in the worst way possible?  I for one hope you and the other doomsayers here wind up being disappointed; personally I am more interested in the hundreds of thousands who have protested to try and stop this from inflaming the situation.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jan/08/charlie-hebdo-norwa...

 

Todrick of Chat...

NDPP wrote:
Everybody cool with that? (I'm not)
I am not cool with the suspension either. I am trying to figure out what polices and guidelines of the forums Webgear broke, other than being crude and rough I can't see any reason for a suspension.Personally, I don't like him or his politics. 

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Catchfire wrote:

Hoooohkay. So Webgear has clarified what he meant by his above post and has earned himself a suspension until I figure out what to do about it.

 

What policy did he break?

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Everybody puts it in their little silos and avoids the big picture. It's gotta be nice to be able to avoid that elephant.

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

RevolutionPlease wrote:

Catchfire wrote:

Hoooohkay. So Webgear has clarified what he meant by his above post and has earned himself a suspension until I figure out what to do about it.

What policy did he break?

Yeah, really, please tell us what policy he broke so we aviod doing so ourselves.  

RevolutionPlease RevolutionPlease's picture

Bec.De.Corbin wrote:

RevolutionPlease wrote:

Catchfire wrote:

Hoooohkay. So Webgear has clarified what he meant by his above post and has earned himself a suspension until I figure out what to do about it.

What policy did he break?

Yeah, really, please tell us what policy he broke so we aviod doing so ourselves.  

 

 

NS NS's picture

You're welcome!

Translated as "The French as dumb as the Blacks"

An Orientalist 'toon of Muslim man with exaggerated nose

 "The War in Zaire: These Blacks are shit"

"Surrogacy agreement: Two parents and A slave"

Whose freedom of speech?

White supremacy masked as "satire"

6079_Smith_W

You forgot to mention blasphemy. In fact, you just committed it yourself. That fellow is supposed to be Mohammed.

Welcome to the club.

Here's another take on it from a dead guy whom I disagree with a lot of the time, in a publication I disagree with a lot of the time:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/01/08/christopher-hitchens-the-case-fo...

laine lowe laine lowe's picture

I too am at a loss as to why Webgear was suspended.

As for this event, it's tragic that so many lives were lost. But I am not joining the bandwagon of this being an assault on our freedom of expression or free and open media. Hell, I haven't seen mainstream media being free and open for decades - only beholden to their corporate bosses and advertisers.

I feel like this event is only going to make the right wing, anti-immigrant movement in France and perhaps elsewhere even stronger.

NorthReport

legatta,

Thank you very much for sharing your insight about this tragedy with us. Appreciated.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Charlie Hebdo shooters spotted robbing gas station in French countryside: reports

http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/01/08/charlie-hebdo-shooters-spotted-a...

NDPP

... it seems, alas, unlike our betters here, we both lack the necessary aesthetic sophistication and cultural refinement necessary to fully appreciate and enjoy these  'mouthy and creative', 'witty and irreverent' examples of the high and historic artistic traditions of French satire...

I agree with you. Sure looks like it to me. No mask either.

 

Charlie Hebdo and Tsarnaev's Trial: Cui Bono?  -  by Paul Craig Roberts

http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2015/01/08/charlie-hebdo-tsarnaevs-trial...

There are two ways to look at the alleged terrorist attack on the French satirical magaine Charlie Hebdo.

One is that in the English speaking world, or much of it, the satire would have been regarded as 'hate speech' and the satirists arrested. But in France Muslims are excluded from the privileged category, took offence at the satire and retaliated.

Another way of seeing the attack is an attack designed to shore up France's vassal status to Washington. The suspects can be both guilty and patsies..."

 

 

 

NorthReport

Thanks again legatta,

In the USA, Rall is the best (read: most progressive) political cartoonist that I am aware of.

lagatta wrote:

http://www.gregpalast.com/wp-content/uploads/TedRall-NewsRoomafterParisS...

Quoting Greg Palast on Ted Rall:

Rall notes, “There could never be a mass shooting of staff political cartoonists in the United States, because American newspapers and magazines have fired almost all of them.”
 
Instead, cartoonists, even one’s of Rall’s international stature, get paid at sweatshop piece-work rates.  He’d be better off sewing sneakers for Nike.

NorthReport

Is there some kind of explanation posted why Webgear was I presume suspended

I may often not agree with Webgear, but I find it hard to believe that he would post something so offensive that it justifies suspending him.

Who suspended him?

We would appreciate a clarification about what is going on here please.

laine lowe wrote:

I too am at a loss as to why Webgear was suspended.

As for this event, it's tragic that so many lives were lost. But I am not joining the bandwagon of this being an assault on our freedom of expression or free and open media. Hell, I haven't seen mainstream media being free and open for decades - only beholden to their corporate bosses and advertisers.

I feel like this event is only going to make the right wing, anti-immigrant movement in France and perhaps elsewhere even stronger.

NorthReport

Usually Charlie Hebdo publishes is it 60,000 copies?

It's next issue Charlie Hebdo will publish 1,000,000 copies. 

That sounds like a healthy and effective response to me.

onlinediscountanvils

Catchfire wrote:

Hey TB, looks like the thread title was changed by none other than rabble.ca's editor-in-chief, Meagan Perry, who has made this thread the photo feature on the front page today.

 

Interesting.

I don't know what to make of the headline: [url=http://rabble.ca/multimedia/2015/01/solidarity-journalists-killed-france]"In solidarity with the journalists killed in France."[/url]

NDPP

laine lowe wrote:

I too am at a loss as to why Webgear was suspended.

Because he can. What matter the reason it's a dictatorship not a democracy. The perfect place for Canadian 'progressives'. What a farce. I'm sure we'll get his well crafted 'reasons-for-judgement' anon when he will again prove himself right no matter if wrong. We'll not hear Webgear's side of course.

It infuriates me they just take someone out midthread like that. It's an appalling process and anyone with any self-respect soon tires of it and leaves. Completely unacceptable..

(sorry for drift I'll waste no more time on it as it's completely useless to pursue unless there's unity and there isn't. Enough.)

onlinediscountanvils

NDPP wrote:

(sorry for drift I'll waste no more time on it as it's completely useless to pursue unless there's unity and there isn't. Enough.)

I don't know that there needs to be unity. It didn't take all that many people to get AC's suspension reconsidered.

[url=http://rabble.ca/babble/rabble-reactions/what-policy-was-broken#new]RP's thread[/url] might as well be the next "petition thread".

NorthReport

This definitely is of concern as it Harper's desire to take away more of our freedoms over this Paris crime.

Charlie Hebdo attack: mourners in France fear political backlash

Far-right Front National party and its leader Marine Le Pen have been most vocal in wake of attacks saying France is now at war

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/08/charlie-hebdo-attack-france...

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Hey everyone! Apologies for the lack of explanation above. Based on the number of complaints, I thought it was self explanatory, but perhaps I was wrong. I'm on my phone so I'll have to be brief, but essentially WG's initial post alleges that the CH journalists deserved what they got. It was so appalling I thought it might be a joke. Not only did WG clarify that it was NOT a joke, he turned his post into what read to me as a rather nasty attack on Timebandit. Now some people i tend to think are pretty sharp appear to think I got it wrong, so I'm willing to hear them out--preferably by PM please! Thanks.

NorthReport

Police converge on area north-east of Paris in hunt for Charlie Hebdo gunmen

Threat level raised to highest possible status in Picardy region after unconfirmed sightings

 

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/08/police-security-cordon-pari...

NDPP

It's certainly not an accurate description of all positions. While I certainly don't support the killings, after viewing their work I don't think I want to be regarded as 'in solidarity' with them. I find them highly racist and objectionable. Others obviously have their own views. The headline though is the western propaganda standard being pumped out by their big media Wurlitzer. I didn't start the thread but if I did I would expect a title change to involve some negotiation and consent.

NorthReport

Agreed.

We must stop deferring to religion: Laughable absurdities must be laughed at

It's time for honest discussion: We have a problem with religion. Let's figure out how we are going to deal with it

http://www.salon.com/2015/01/08/we_must_stop_deferring_to_religion_laugh...

NorthReport

Why does terrorism work? Because we let it.

By Michael Harris 

As Europe staggers toward scapegoating, paranoia and bigotry in the wake of the unspeakable mass murder of journalists in Paris, there's one thing that every Canadian can take to the bank: When Parliament returns, Stephen Harper will be bringing forward new anti-terror legislation. Like Stephen Rigby before them, the new national security tandem of Dick Fadden and David McGovern will be one of the most potent forces in the PM's re-election plans. Fear is Harper's most powerful vote magnet; security…

 

http://www.ipolitics.ca/2015/01/08/why-does-terrorism-work-because-we-le...

NorthReport

Police search for two brothers in massive French manhunt amid fears of more attacks

PARIS — A frustrated manhunt for two heavily armed brothers suspected in France’s worst terrorist attack in generations shifted to the cottages and country lanes of rural France as fresh details emerged that one of the brothers had tried to meet with al-Qaeda’s affiliate in Yemen.

U.S. officials said the older of the two, Said Kouachi, 34, is believed to have traveled to Yemen in 2011 in an effort to link up with al-Qaeda’s affiliate there at a time when that group was eclipsing the terror network’s core leadership in Pakistan as the principal threat to the United States.

U.S. officials said Kouachi may have received small-arms training and picked up other skills while in Yemen, but they described the years that followed that 2011 visit as a “kind of hole” in the timeline, with significant gaps in authorities’ understanding of the brothers’ activities and whereabouts.

Those blank spots have led U.S. and other officials to seek to determine whether one or both brothers traveled to Syria or another conflict zone, or whether they managed to lower their profile in France to such a degree that scrutiny of them subsided.

Now Said and his younger brother, Chérif Kouachi, 32, are France’s most wanted men, believed to be armed with Kalashnikov rifles and rocket-propelled grenade launchers and on the loose somewhere in the French countryside. In a massive show of force Thursday, armored vehicles rolled past the ancient stone fences and sugar-beet fields of Aisne, an agricultural district 44 miles north of the capital. Black-clad troopers wearing bulletproof Kevlar gear and carrying assault rifles cordoned off a large area of farmland as they went door-to-door, field-to-field, forest-block-to-forest-block.

French police conducted house-to-house searches in villages northeast of Paris on Thursday for two brothers suspected in the attack of newspaper Charlie Hebdo. (Reuters)

The two men, French authorities say, are homegrown Islamist extremists and the perpetrators of Wednesday’s bloody assault in a Paris newspaper office that left 12 dead and 11 wounded. Late Thursday, however, authorities were at least partially suspending search efforts in some areas as night fell and amid confusion over whether the suspects had ditched their gray Renault Clio after apparently robbing a gas station in the northern city of Villers-Cotterets earlier in the day.

Despite the exasperating nature of the manhunt, French officials vowed to bring the men to justice and announced that they had taken nine people into custody in relation to the case. Authorities would not release their names, but French media said that those picked up in the dragnet included a sister of the men as well as her companion and the wife of Said Kouachi.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/police-search-for-two-brothers-in-ma...

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