Join the discussion about Charlie Hebdo - closed

796 posts / 0 new
Last post
6079_Smith_W

@ Unionist.

Well I agree completely with the latter part of the statement. It is using it as a distraction for the first part, which is both loaded and completely unclear, that I find objectionable.

Should we completely forget about all of this, and devote all our efforts to reducing climate change since that is ultimately more important, or should we consider that people can walk, chew gum, and hold more than one concept in our heads at one time?

 

Durrutix

In Germany, spokespersons for Pegida have described the attack on Charlie Hebdo as evidence that Islamists “are not ripe for democracy, but rely instead on violence and death.” On Monday, the right-wing and neo-Nazi movement has called for marches in solidarity with Charlie Hebdo and the “terror victims of Paris.”

One of the most remarkable developments is the integration of the Left Party into the reactionary “Unity and solidarity policy.” A statement by the Left Party titled “#Je suis Charlie—The hard struggle for freedom” states, “The challenge, ‘to be Charlie’, is great,” and then asks, “Do we have the courage, the determination, to poke our fingers time and time again into the wounds of our society?”

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/01/12/germ-j12.html

 

Durrutix

The marches, called amid mounting panic over the attacks and hysterical appeals from France’s major political parties and press outlets for national unity, took on a bizarre character. Thousands of police and soldiers were mobilized in Paris alone. Helicopters flew overhead and snipers lined the rooftops as a delegation of nearly 50 foreign heads of state joined the march, while interior ministers of the major powers gathered in Paris to discuss a coordinated escalation of security measures.

--

Behind the atmosphere of hysteria stoked up by the French political establishment and media is an attempt to impose a definite and reactionary political agenda. In a country that has seen two world wars and numerous revolutionary struggles, the killing of 12 people is being elevated to the level of an unprecedented national tragedy in a bid to revive the flagging fortunes of Hollande, France’s most unpopular president since World War II.

By appealing for national unity behind the police and security forces, Hollande is seeking to bolster the credibility of a government despised for its austerity policies, legitimize French participation in the reactionary, Washington-led “war on terror” in Africa and the Middle East, and facilitate right-wing political combinations in a desperate attempt to stabilize the state.

http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2015/01/12/fran-j12.html

Durrutix

Behind the photo op: 

DaveW

I am likely  one of the few posters here with a long history of exposure to Charlie Hebdo; I lived in France for 16 years from the mid 1970s onward, and CH receded in the mediascape more and more

... not just because it was so-o-o repetitive (you can only laugh so many times at Sarkozy screwing the Pope, or vice versa, or Le Pen sieg-heiling in his underwear, or Hollande getting a blowjob while singing the Marseillaise).

My very first day in France in 1975, in the middle of the Portuguese revolution and military uprising against Salazar, I recall a series of cartoons in CH titled: Which way forward for Portugal??

 The panels outlined the likely outcomes, ranging from "Right-wing dictatorship" (images of piles of skulls, swastikas, barbed wire) to "Left-wing dictatorship"" (miserable gays and dissidents in labour camps) and finally to "Capitalist democracy", with a top-hatted tycoon riding 2 people like mules with the carrot of TVs and stereos dangled in front of their gaping mouths....

that was their overall view: everybody's to blame, all the time. No heroes, really. And lots of anuses on display every issue.

Frankly, I hadn't bought a copy in years, but when I did it was not great reading. Just my take.

 

 

 

DaveW

so a bunch of people have just been assassinated, and you expect heads of State to walk around freely? I don't...

no question, it is a deceptive photo-op, but understandable in the context of such political violence

Maysie Maysie's picture

Aziz Ansari Mercilessly Mocked Rupert Murdoch For His Anti-Muslim Comments On Twitter

Ansari is pure genius.

Quote:

Rupert Murdoch: Maybe most Moslems peaceful, but until they recognize and destroy their growing jihadist cancer they must be held responsible.

Quote:

Aziz Ansari: @rupertmurdoch Rups can we get a step by step guide? How can my 60 year old parents in NC help destroy terrorist groups? Plz advise.

@rupertmudoch Are you responsible for the evil shit all Christians do or just the insane amount of evil you yourself contribute to?

@rupertmurdoch is Christian just like Mark David Chapman who shot John Lennon. Why didn't Rupert stop it? #RupertsFault

Pondering

Durrutix wrote:

http://dailycaller.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/iTumRdEJePilN-e1348078...

The above is very clearly hate speech designed to degrade Muslims.  People should be consistent.   I don't support hate speech laws, but if they're going to be applied they should be applied with some measure of consistency (yeah right).   

To repeat, once again: the real threat is not that bigots can't publish hateful cartoons of a powerless minority, it is that our governments are seeking to progressively eliminate our rights, including free speech.  

I agree except that I think it is oligarchs operating through governments. Racism is just another tool they use. Politicians are minions or junior oligarchs who join the class through obedience and delivery of objectives. Oligarchs are citizens of the world not of countries.

I don't agree with conspiracy theorists that suggest attacks are orchestrated by governments but they are certainly expecting incidences to occur and have plans to take advandage of them when they do.

I don't believe there is an organized "state" of oligarchs who run the world together. It's worse. They battle each other for supremacy sometimes cooperating sometimes shafting each other. They are the head of the snake but I believe they can and must be overthrown country by country. The biggest problems we are facing all lead to them.

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Fifth Column, babble is not the place to air completely unsubstantiated and utterly incredible conspiracy theories. No more of the "shooting was faked" nonsense please. I'll add that referring to Jewish people as 'the Tribe' in the way you've done upthread is anti-Semitic and against babble policy. Consider this a warning, thanks.

*waves magic formatting wand, fixes thread so it is suitable for company*

NDPP

These Crimes 'Will Never Be Purged Away, But With Blood'  -  by Arthur Silber

http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.co.uk/2015/01/these-crimes-will-never-b...

'Nothing can justify the Charlie Hedbo murders. All civilized people must condemn these murders absolutely and unequivocably.'

"A very simple rule of thumb can be applied here: if you find yourself repeating the moral judgment of a mob that shouts views such as thse from every available rooftop, you are sure to be wrong. Of course, no one to whom the mob pays attention, no one who 'matters' will tell them they are wrong.

The mob has completely insulated itself from all views that might seriously challenge their perspective. Indeed the mob's society has been structured so that those views that are most unwelcome are heard only by individuals so few in number that their existence barely registers.

Especially unwelcome views need not even be ignored: you need not ignore that which have rendered undetectable. This is true not only of these recent murders, but of every matter of consequence. This is what the mob calls 'freedom of speech.'

 

'Watch Your Back American Soldiers, We Are Coming' - ISIS

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2907040/ISIS-hacks-Central-Comma...

"The social media accounts of the US military's Central Command in Florida appear to have been hacked by ISIS sympathizers. The serious breach, which occurred while President Obama was giving a speech on cyber security saw death threats against American soldiers made and war-game scenarios for conflicts with North Korea and Iran leaked online.."

timing...

DaveW

the bandwagon effect, by Aislin:

http://montrealgazette.com/gallery/editorial-cartoons

Mosher started badly, acting above it all, but has gotten ahead of the story in the last few days ...

NS NS's picture

ygtbk wrote:

This thread has been kind of enlightening over the last few days. I have a few comments:

1) Murdering people because they drew a cartoon that you think might insult an abstraction is NOT a reasonable reaction.

2) Stating that criminals should not be held responsible for their actions, because oppression, is verging on stupid.

3) Excusing the actions of people who performed the murders is at best unwise. You get the behaviour you incent.

4) Criticizing people who notice 1) is not a reasonable reaction.

5) Stating that we need a lot of time to analyze the motivation of people who yell "Allahu Akbar!" when they are killing people is at best disingenuous.

 

YGTBK, I do not think you have read the whole thread

 

NS NS's picture

lagatta wrote:

NS, the Anglosphere also tends to set itself up as to what is racist and how antiracists must combat racism.

There have been powerful antiracist movements in France and other francophone societies, but they do not tend to espouse the "privilege-checking" and guilt that such movements in some anglophone societies, particularly the US, seem centred on. AKA, changing discourse more than reality.

There is also a (sorry) black-and-white portrayal of French society, in which the outlying districts are predominantly inhabited by people of colour.

The old city of Paris is very small. You can walk across it in either direction in a day, without being an athlete. This is like saying all people in NYC would have to fit into Manhattan, or all Torontonians into the old city. In truth, there are many people of all colours and creeds who live in the so-called suburbs, and not all of them are hideous or horrible.

Yes, of course there is racism, sexism and class privilege in French society, but isn't that the case in all modern capitalist societies?

I certainly don't agree with all of Charlie's "humour", but they have nothing to do with Michel Houllebecq or other spokesbots for racism and the far right.

I think you have misunderstood what I was saying. 

I like French popular culture, the kind that is exported anyway, Beeson's films , Amelie and L'Auberge Espagnole. I am well aware that France is just like other democracies with its own problems such as 10% of French have negative views of Jews. 27% have negative views of Muslims. 66% dislike Roma

 

Moral Clarity by Adam Shatz

Adam Shatz writes about those unique problems France has "with its while the crimes of colonisation in Algeria are still hardly acknowledged by the state" and how "liberal intellectuals have become laptop bombardiers'. He talks to his friend who happens to be French/Parisian of North African descent.

Assia (not her real name) is a French woman of Algerian origin who has taught for many years in the States, a leftist and atheist who despises Islamism. She read Charlie Hebdo as a teenager, and revelled in its irreverent cartoons. She feels distraught not just by the attacks but by the target, which is part of her lieux de mémoire. A part of her will always be Charlie Hebdo. And yet she finds it preposterous – and disturbing – that even Americans are now saying ‘je suis Charlie.’ Have any of them ever read it? she asked. ‘You couldn’t publish Charlie in the US – not the cartoons about the Prophet, or the images of popes getting fucked in the ass.’ Charlie Hebdo had an equal opportunity policy when it came to giving offence, but in recent years it had come to lean heavily on jokes about Muslims, who are among the most vulnerable citizens in France. Assia does not believe in censorship, but wonders: ‘Is this really the time for cartoons lampooning the Prophet, given the situation of North Africans in France?’

French citizens of North African origin feel their backs are against the wall. That they are turning to an imported form of Islam – often of Gulf origin, often radical – is no surprise: few of them have any familiarity with the more peaceful and tolerant Islam of their North African ancestors. Nor is it surprising to find an increasing anti-Semitism among French Maghrébins in the banlieue. They look at the Jews and see not a minority who were persecuted by Europe but a privileged elite whose history of victimisation is officially honoured and taught in schools, while the crimes of colonisation in Algeria are still hardly acknowledged by the state. 

Red Winnipeg

To paraphrase Molly Ivins: "Satire is traditionally the weapon of the powerless against the powerful. I only aim at the powerful. When satire is aimed at the powerless, it is not only cruel -- it's vulgar."

I think that may be the nub of the discomfort many have with defending CH satirical cartoons. Few will bat an eye if the Pope is skewered satirically by CH because the Pope is powerful. But, what of Muslims? Many will argue that they are among the oppressed and powerless -- and, therefore, satire directed at their beliefs is cruel and wrong.

Aside from the problems of classifying an entire group of individual people who share a common trait as forming an undifferentiated mass (here, classifying and labeling Muslims as "powerless"), must or should we hold our tongues (and refrain from criticism and satire) if beliefs are espoused that we strongly (or even mildly) disagree with, such as death for apostacy? If a person is a member of a religion classified as "powerless," can we not mock that religion, as atheists mock Christianity (presumably a "powerful" class -- never mind that in some countries, Christians are a persecuted minority)?

When it comes to the expression of ideas, I think it's wrong to muzzle expressions if they fail the political "powerful-powerless test" because it leaves questions and issues that are otherwise important unexamined and immune to being questioned.

The_Fifth_Column

The video refers to that portion of the attack where the terrorists shoot the Policeman. It speak for itself as it clearly shows that the Policeman was not shot in the head.

As for the term "the tribe" if it doesn't have relevance it wouldn't be offensive. The truth doth hurt and an inconvenient truth doth hurt inconveniently. But I find it ironic how you're trying to suppress an inconvenient truth in a thread about a group using coercion to supress another inconvenient truth. Does the term cultural marxism make you smile? How about the sanctimony of political correctness?

Fun facts about Charlie Hebdo:

The offending piece in Charlie Hebdo, a pillar of the left-libertarian media establishment, was penned last month by a 79-year-old columnist-cartoonist who goes by the name of Bob Siné. He described the plans — since denied — of Jean Sarkozy, 21, to convert to Judaism before marrying Jessica Sebaoun-Darty, an heiress to the fortune of the Darty electrical goods retailing chain. "He'll go far in life, this little fellow!" Siné wrote of Sarkozy Jr. Quote: Nobody paid attention for a week: Siné is a notorious provocateur whose strong pro-Palestinian, anti-Zionist views have in the past crossed the line into anti-Semitism. I'd say he's far from alone in that among a certain French left. But this is the summer, news is slow, and since a journalist at the weekly Le Nouvel Observateur denounced the article as "anti-Semitic" on July 8, France has worked itself into a fit of high intellectual dudgeon. The storm is gusting at high velocity, but I'll try to take things in order. Philippe Val, the editor of Charlie Hebdo, requested an apology from Siné, to which the veteran "chroniqueur" replied, with some brio it must be said, that he would much rather cut off his testicles.
That did it for Val, who promptly fired Siné, who shot back by bringing legal action against the paper for "defamation." Quote: Several political bloggers have asked why Val, in the name of free speech and solidarity with a Danish newspaper under fire, bravely republished cartoons of the Prophet Mohammad, but drew the line at Siné's caricaturing of the purported relationship between Jews, money and an opportunistic young Sarkozy with a nascent political career in the department of Hauts-de-Seine, near Paris. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/04/op...ohen.html?_r=0 

So it seems constantly criticizing Muslims is ok, but take a hard shot at "the tribe" and you are fired. He is know facing criminal prosecution in France.

Challenging power and privilege can be career ending.

■Became weekly Hara-Kiri Hebdo in 1969.
■Banned by French government in 1970.
■Reopened as Charlie Hebdo,taking name from Charlie Brown comic.
■Went out of business in 1981.
Revived in 1992 in response to Gulf War. (curious but perhaps propitious timing)
■Firebombed in 2011 after issue 'guest-edited' by Muhammad

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Hebdo 

 

Some more inconvenient satire: 
  Sanctimony
Another inconvenient truth

Catchfire Catchfire's picture

Fifth Column, I wish you well as you bring your racist inconvenient truths elsewhere on the internet.

6079_Smith_W

I keep reading these claims that CH couldn't get published in other western countries.

In the first place, is there any evidence that is true? Not sure if anyone has tried to portray god having anal sex (though there is that onion article where it is Ganesh doing the fisting, if anyone cares to do a search) but he did have a one night stand with Sarah Silverman on U.S. TV without anyone having an anyeurism.

My second question is what bearing it has at all on the topic of this thread - restrictions in other countries OR the reality of western racism and Imperialism, and butchers trying to exploit this for a photo op.

Or for that that matter, a three-way trinity. Who cares? And after all, they didn't get shot for offending Christians, though there were a few callers on cross-country-jerk-off arguing in favour of censorship, though like most of the other mealy-mouthed commentators the caller didn't dare say she thought they got what they deserved.

We have kind of exhausted the question of whether they were asking for it, and if they were just doing it for the money, so I guess it is no surprise that we are moving on to other non sequiturs. Any smear that will stick, I suppose.

 

6079_Smith_W

Actually, I am just remembering "Son of God" comix from National Lampoon. Of course it was in the form of a dove, not the all-seeing eye of the eastern orthodox traditions, But I don't think anyone other than the sensitive religious types batted an eye at that divine congress.

Certainly no one called the cops or showed up with rifles.

(edit)

THis just in. The new cover - post massacre:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/12/charlie-hebdo-cover-je-suis-cha...

NS NS's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Just to clarify, this is blasphemy, according to the standard being waved around in this thread:

The Angel Gabriel and the Prophet Mohammed

[emphasis added]

I think I may have been the first person to post CH illustration 'hook-nosed' racialized caricature of Prophet Mohammad in this thread (see post #134)

in which Smith replied

Quote:

You forgot to mention blasphemy. In fact, you just committed it yourself. That fellow is supposed to be Mohammed.

Welcome to the club.

 

People including Smith continue to repeat conventional wisdom that says the reason why Muslims are offended is because they consider it "blasphemous" and that Isam forbids the images of Mohammad. I do not used the word 'blasphemy' to attribute what 1.7 Billion Muslims' perceptions or what Islam says.

The pastor trying to burn the Qur'ans and the guy behind the film "Innoncence of Muslims" were absolutely inflammatory. However, I haven't seen any data that asks Muslims the question about the Danish cartoons, and that was 10 years ago.

What is the opinion prominent Islamic /Religious Scholars on the cartoons? Do they agree they are blasphemous?

Charlie Hebdo and the Danish cartoons in 2005-6 "are essentially prove that ‘unless you can put up with this, you don’t belong in France" [or France] says Reza Aslan.

What everyone gets wrong about Islam and cartoons of Mohammed 

Quote:

Part of the offense may also come from the fact that the cartoons can appear explicitly designed to provoke. Aslan suggested that publications that print such cartoons may often be attempting to provoke an extreme response in order to make a statement about who belongs in European secular culture.

Is publishing a cartoon of Mohammed really blasphemy?

Dalia Mogahed, a Muslim academic and co-author of "Who Speaks for Islam: What a Billion Muslims Really Think" explains: 

Quote:

Over time, Islamic scholars extended that tradition to cover Mohammed and the other major prophets [Jesus, Moses, Noah etc ]  as well, and discouraged artists from depicting them in images. That has created a strong cultural norm against images of Mohammed, even in the absence of a religious law against them.

... Like Judaism, is an iconoclastic religion that does not permit God to be anthropomorphized — that is, portrayed as a human being — and prizes textual scripture instead. 

[emaphasis added]

6079_Smith_W

Thanks NS. That last article does align more with my understanding of how most Muslims feel about t.

Though whatever you want to call it, the pictures have been reprinted here in this thread.

When I refered to blasphemy, I was thinking more of the motives of the murderers - the one heard yelling that the prophet was avenged - and all those who seem willing to take up knives, guns, or bombs just because people print pictures of Mohammed.

I did so, as I have explained a few times, to clarify that that blasphemy was at the core of their actions, just like the firebombing in Hamburg since then.

 

Pondering

Red Winnipeg wrote:
To paraphrase Molly Ivins: "Satire is traditionally the weapon of the powerless against the powerful. I only aim at the powerful. When satire is aimed at the powerless, it is not only cruel -- it's vulgar."

I think that may be the nub of the discomfort many have with defending CH satirical cartoons. Few will bat an eye if the Pope is skewered satirically by CH because the Pope is powerful. But, what of Muslims? Many will argue that they are among the oppressed and powerless -- and, therefore, satire directed at their beliefs is cruel and wrong.

Not all satire and not everywhere. We are talking about within the western world and more specifically within France directed against a minority that is struggling AND does not convey any particular message other than "up-yours". I don't really consider that any more satirical than fat jokes.

Red Winnipeg wrote:
Aside from the problems of classifying an entire group of individual people who share a common trait as forming an undifferentiated mass (here, classifying and labeling Muslims as "powerless"), must or should we hold our tongues (and refrain from criticism and satire) if beliefs are espoused that we strongly (or even mildly) disagree with, such as death for apostacy? If a person is a member of a religion classified as "powerless," can we not mock that religion, as atheists mock Christianity (presumably a "powerful" class -- never mind that in some countries, Christians are a persecuted minority)?

They aren't all powerless but many are vulnerable in the current climate and it certainly doesn't mean they are immune from criticism. For example I am very critical of female genital mutilation and will speak out against it but I would not mock it and I would not mock Christians in a country in which they are a persecuted minority.

This prison is majority Muslim -- as is virtually every house of incarceration in France. About 60 to 70 percent of all inmates in the country's prison system are Muslim, according to Muslim leaders, sociologists and researchers, though Muslims make up only about 12 percent of the country's population.

On a continent where immigrants and the children of immigrants are disproportionately represented in almost every prison system, the French figures are the most marked, according to researchers, criminologists and Muslim leaders.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/28/AR200804...

That doesn't mean there are no powerful wealthy Muslims in France. I am certain there are. It doesn't negate the enormous vulnerablity of large numbers of Muslims.

 

Red Winnipeg wrote:
When it comes to the expression of ideas, I think it's wrong to muzzle expressions if they fail the political "powerful-powerless test" because it leaves questions and issues that are otherwise important unexamined and immune to being questioned.

Expressing disapproval is not muzzling.

I don't think it would be appropriate to publish a cartoon mocking Rinelle Harper or the over a thousand missing indigenous women or mocking the victims of Pickton. Saying so doesn't muzzle anyone.

The population of France is 66 million but the typical print run of Charlie Hebdo is 60 thousand and they don't normally have mainstream support. Not buying their paper is not muzzling, it's an expression of disapproval or indifference.

I think media should have printed some of the better work of all the cartoonists more prominently. Isn't that what is usually done? Printing the best of someone's work rather than the most offensive?

Is anyone here promoting banning or censorship?

 

 

 

Durrutix

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Thanks NS. That last article does align more with my understanding of how most Muslims feel about t.

Though whatever you want to call it, the pictures have been reprinted here in this thread.

When I refered to blasphemy, I was thinking more of the motives of the murderers - the one heard yelling that the prophet was avenged - and all those who seem willing to take up knives, guns, or bombs just because people print pictures of Mohammed.

I did so, as I have explained a few times, to clarify that that blasphemy was at the core of their actions, just like the firebombing in Hamburg since then.

 

 

Today's article by Hedges makes a good point about this: 

"When you sink to despair, when you live trapped in Gaza, Israel’s vast open-air prison, sleeping 10 to a floor in a concrete hovel, walking every morning through the muddy streets of your refugee camp to get a bottle of water because the water that flows from your tap is toxic, lining up at a U.N. office to get a little food because there is no work and your family is hungry, suffering the periodic aerial bombardments by Israel that leaves hundreds of dead, your religion is all you have left. Muslim prayer, held five times a day, gives you your only sense of structure and meaning, and, most importantly, self-worth. And when the privileged of the world ridicule the one thing that provides you with dignity, you react with inchoate fury. This fury is exacerbated when you and nearly everyone around you feel powerless to respond."

I remember an article from CP -- forget the author and title unfortunately -- but he was a Palestinian who said basically the same thing.  He said he wasn't even religious but found the extreme anti-Islam stuff infuriating because it was like a spit in the face to people already suffering, trying to cling to what little dignity they had left.  Based on what I've read a lot of Muslims feel similarly in France even though the conditions obviously aren't as dire. 

I can't speak for the two alleged gunman though.   Perhaps they were more a product of France's support for Islamist extremists in Syria.  Or perhaps they were patsies.   Probably the latter.     The new magazine cover is only marginally less offensive than the rest of the trash from that outfit.   Most Muslims are condemning the attacks but showing little solidarity with the bigoted assholes who tried to mock and degrade them in life.  

 

bekayne

The last issue of Charlie Hebdo has sold for over $80,000 on ebay:

http://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_sop=3&_nkw=Charlie+heb...

6079_Smith_W

@ Durrutix

So how does that analysis spin to account for those in Arab and Muslim cultures who face similar threats for being critical of religion?

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2015-01-12/arab-cartoonists-fears-relived-...

 

http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/.premium-1.636152

Quote:

Al-Nahar’s founding editor-in-chief, Gebran Tueni, and its star columnist, Samir Kassir, were assassinated in 2005 by Syrian agents.

In its editorial on Thursday the newspaper said: “All the murdered journalists are a torch lighting the way for other journalists. No matter how hard they try to silence the media, the written word will remain a ticking bomb that will one day blow up in the faces of terrorism and the terrorists.”

Not disputing Chris Hedges's take on imperialism and xenophobia, but as a reponse to the specific issue of  this attack and freedom of the press it seems a bit wooden and doctorinaire, I have to wonder how many journalists and writers share his opinion. That is to say I am sure some do, though I am not so sure about those who have faced threats or attacks themselves. Certainly there are a number saying something quite different.

 

 

 

Durrutix

Based on the snippets: 

"One of Farzat’s cartoons had depicted a sweaty Assad clutching a briefcase as he ran to catch a ride with ousted Libyan leader Muammar Qaddafi. He said the attempt to silence him had only strengthened his resolve."

...It appears these cartoonists are supportive of US/NATO/Israeli backed attempts to overthrow the governments of Libya and Syria, so it is natural that they would ally themselves with the current campaign.   Seems like this is fundemantally different than the Mohammed issue.  Their position seems a tad schizophrenic (if you're worried about radical Islamists targeting cartoonists, it's probably not best to support radical Islamists in order to overthrow secular nationalist regimes) but I suppose consistent with the Orwellian nature of these proxy wars.   

They certainly don't deserve to be targeted in any fashion, obviously.   In any case it seems like different power dynamics are at play.   If I was providing support to foreign nationals attempting to overthrow the Canadian government I would expect to be targeted as well.  Doesn't make it right but that's the world we live in.  

 

NDPP

3 Million Copies of Charlie Hedbo's New Edition To Have Muhammad Cartoons

http://rt.com/news/221779-charlie-publish-muhammad-cartoons/

"The new edition of Charlie Hebdo is scheduled to be released on Wednesday. Due to an increased demand, it will run some three million copies, instead of the usual 60,000.

To satisfy demand the special issue will be offered 'in 16 languages', columnist Patrick Pellaux told AFP. The magazine is appealing for donations to help it carry on. 'Charlie Hebdo needs you to survive,' its website says.

And considerable resources have already been collected. A million Euros has been donated by the French government to keep the magazine going, Le Figaro reported. 250,000 Euros has been provided by the French Fund for Digital Innovation and 250,000 Euros are coming from French publishers. The Guardian Media Group has pledged 128,000 Euros in support."

 

 

Hypocrites Shine on Paris Catwalk  -  by Pepe Escobar

http://sputniknews.com/columnists/20150112/1016795879.html

"...So to vilify Islam as a whole, as well as 1.6 B Muslims en masse, is acceptable, or at least tolerable. But to denounce Zionism is 'anti-semitism.' Freedom of the pen? Iran's Press TV is banned all across the Atlanticist domains. RT is routinely derided as the mouthpiece of an 'evil' dictatorship. Will the leaders parade in Donbas or Damascus defending 'freedom of speech'? Forget it..."

Red Winnipeg

Pondering wrote:

Expressing disapproval is not muzzling.

I completely agree.

ygtbk

ikosmos wrote:

... and, according to Pepe Escobar, the following has gone viral in the Arab world ...

Showing that many people in the Arab world have quite the sense of humour, I guess, since I heard that this Hilter fellow might have been a bit of an anti-semite...

6079_Smith_W

Durrutix wrote:

Seems like this is fundemantally different than the Mohammed issue.

That wouldn't apply to the cartoon I posted above, nor any number of other commentators and activits pushing for religious reform, which is why I posted it. 

Or this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/05/books/an-algerian-author-fights-back-a...

and this:

http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/article/1661353/jakarta-posts-editor-faces...

 Not that I think people in that part of the world who criticize Assad or Qaddafi are all stooges of the U.S., NATO and Israel, as you say. I don't think the reality is that simple, and I think they are capable of making their own political decisions for themselves.

Durrutix

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Durrutix wrote:

Seems like this is fundemantally different than the Mohammed issue.

That wouldn't apply to the cartoon I posted above, nor any number of other commentators and activits pushing for religious reform, which is why I posted it. 

Or this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/05/books/an-algerian-author-fights-back-a...

and this:

http://www.scmp.com/news/asia/article/1661353/jakarta-posts-editor-faces...

 Not that I think people in that part of the world who criticize Assad or Qaddafi are all stooges of the U.S., NATO and Israel, as you say. I don't think the reality is that simple, and I think they are capable of making their own political decisions for themselves. But I'd say many of these

 

Didn't show up in my browser but I can see this one.  And yes I agree in this case.   Unlike governments of the West I do not support Islamic fundamentalist movements.  Not that my opnion makes any difference but there it is.  

Durrutix

@NDPP

"Arguably the icing on the lethal cake was the “support” to France offered by the House of Saud, which has just conducted the first round (50 out of 1,000 lashes) of public flogging of jailed blogger Raif Badawi. His crime: running a liberal website in favor of that oh so precious “freedom of speech”, but in Saudi Arabia."

Hypocrisy on a truly epic scale.  

 

NDPP

6079_Smith_W wrote:

 I think they are capable of making their own political decisions for themselves.

 Imperial powers may think otherwise.

Durrutix

Commentator on RT states: 

"This is not about free speech, it is about humiliating Muslims on behalf of Netanyahu while making sure that Palestinians lose popular support. French Muslims should test this new found freedom of speech by putting out their own publication."

That's actually a brilliant dea.  Fill it up with holocaust cartoons and "evil joo banker" stereotypes.  Watch the media do a 180.    

Pondering

How ironic:

To satisfy demand, the special issue will be offered "in 16 languages," columnist Patrick Pelloux told AFP. The weekly's publisher hopes the recently gained popularity of the publication, as well as an increase in sales, will save the magazine from economic downfall; it was sliding towards bankruptcy before the attack....

And considerable resources have already been collected.

A million Euros has been donated by the French government to keep the magazine going, Le Figaro reported. 250,000 Euros has been provided by the French Fund for Digital Innovation and another 250,000 Euros are coming from French publishers. The Guardian Media Group has pledged £100,000 (128,000 Euros) in support.

http://rt.com/news/221779-charlie-publish-muhammad-cartoons/

They will sell a full year's worth of weekly papers in one edition although they will be more expensive to produce and the publication will survive.

6079_Smith_W

New found freedom?

If you don't want to cut and paste a copy of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion from the site where it is available online you can buy one from Apple.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/14/protocols-of-the-elders-of-zion...

Racist propaganda has always been freely available. Not all of it attracts the attention of the law.

Though I'll say again, there is a big difference between that and political satire, as has been noted a number of times in this thread.

 

NDPP

Ankara Mayor Gokcek: Mossad is Behind Paris Attacks

http://www.todayszaman.com/diplomacy_ankara-mayor-gokcek-mossad-is-behin...

"Ankara Mayor Melih Gokcek has alleged that last week's deadly attacks on a French satirical magazine and a kosher supermarket in Paris that left 17 people dead are the result of France expressing support for Palestine and that Israeli intelligence is behind the attacks..."

 

Durrutix

@6079

"Racist propaganda has always been freely available. Not all of it attracts the attention of the law."

Indeed, that would seem to be the entire point.  

"there is a big difference between that and political satire"

I've seen the cartoons.  They are clearly attempts to demean, degrade and humiliate a persecuted minority.   I don't believe in hate speech laws, but I recognize hate speech when I see it.  If you don't agree, well, I guess that's all there is to say.  

Durrutix

NDPP wrote:

Ankara Mayor Gokcek: Mossad is Behind Paris Attacks

http://www.todayszaman.com/diplomacy_ankara-mayor-gokcek-mossad-is-behin...

"Ankara Mayor Melih Gokcek has alleged that last week's deadly attacks on a French satirical magazine and a kosher supermarket in Paris that left 17 people dead are the result of France expressing support for Palestine and that Israeli intelligence is behind the attacks..."

 

 

Certainly wouldn't come as a great shock.  

Interesting historical case: the 1976 hijacking of an Air France plane by Palestinians.  BBC reports on a document declassified a few years ago:

In the document, written on 30 June 1976 when the crisis was still unresolved, DH Colvin of the Paris Embassy writes of his source: “According to his information, the hijack was the work of the PFLP, with help from the Israeli Secret Service, the Shin Beit.
 
“The operation was designed to torpedo the PLO’s standing in France and to prevent what they see as a growing rapprochement between the PLO and the Americans.”

Netanyahu's father was killed in the subsequent raid.   

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk/6710289.stm

6079_Smith_W

@ Durrutix.

Yeah. I fundamentally disagree and I don't see any point in arguing about it either. All I can do is point to the numerous informed opinions to the contrary. And that fact that while I also see some material that crosses lines, I see an intent that is far more anti-racist, and anti- oppression.  I certainly see no basis for making a direct comparison to openly racist propaganda like that published by the National Front, or reprinted by Glen Greenwald.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on that one.

 

NDPP

@ Durrutix

I think it is likely this was an intelligence operation rather than simply an initiative solely by AQ terrorists. It is known the suspects were known to authorities. So, my suspicions are that they were 'patsies' like the Mohammed Merah case a few years back. He too was connected to French intelligence. This time though, no embarrassing interrogations revealing specifics of their relationship. Dead men tell no tales. As for Mossad's possible involvement, who knows for sure?

If one was to play devil's advocate on this however, as much as Hollande's support for Palestine, one would note his recent strong statements against the sanctions on Russia. France is hurt economically as is the rest of Europe by these. Additionally a multi-billion dollar sale of Mistral naval carriers will also be cancelled with huge damages and costs now to be charged to Paris if the sale doesn't go through.

These anti-Russia sanctions are also intended to punish Putin for his blockage of Western plans for regime change in Syria, to be followed by something similar in Iran. Both of these are at the top of the Israeli hit parade and it is more than concievable that they would involve themselves in an operation to discredit and destroy Hollande poltically, to prevent their collapse.

, Sarkozy, a close 'friend of Israel' is again up and running on the French political scene. The French PM is also known to be much closer and warmer to Zionist interests than Hollande. Israel is as well quite happy  with anything that makes Europe and the West commit to waging GWOT of which it is a major beneficiary. These attacks in Paris and the 'we are charlie' movement will only cause IS recruitment to skyrocket. As well sympathy for Palestinians is being damaged by the reiteration of the 'Islamist threat'.

But again Israeli involvement directly in CH is conjecture as is at least by the contents, the accusations by Gokcek. Perhaps though it will shake out some further corroboration from him or elsewhere. I do think that we will see a ramping up of imperial adventures in the Middle East, and moves on Syria,  more surveillance and security at home and Islamophobia legitimized even more. Cui Bono? should always be the first question and  Israel is certainly a beneficiary of the aftermath quite apart from any involvement or no

 

 

 

Pondering

I'm concerned about the young man who turned himself in and had an ironclad alibi as he was in a class at the time. A report said he was cooperating.

Why hasn't he been released or charged?

Durrutix

NDPP wrote:

@ Durrutix

I think it is likely this was an intelligence operation rather than simply an initiative solely by AQ terrorists. It is known the suspects were known to authorities. So, my suspicions are that they were 'patsies' like the Mohammed Merah case a few years back. He too was connected to French intelligence. This time though, no embarrassing interrogations revealing specifics of their relationship. Dead men tell no tales. As for Mossad's possible involvement, who knows for sure?

If one was to play devil's advocate on this however, as much as Hollande's support for Palestine, one would note his recent strong statements against the sanctions on Russia. France is hurt economically as is the rest of Europe by these. Additionally a multi-billion dollar sale of Mistral naval carriers will also be cancelled with huge damages and costs now to be charged to Paris if the sale doesn't go through.

These anti-Russia sanctions are also intended to punish Putin for his blockage of Western plans for regime change in Syria, to be followed by something similar in Iran. Both of these are at the top of the Israeli hit parade and it is more than concievable that they would involve themselves in an operation to discredit and destroy Hollande poltically, to prevent their collapse.

, Sarkozy, a close 'friend of Israel' is again up and running on the French political scene. The French PM is also known to be much closer and warmer to Zionist interests than Hollande. Israel is as well quite happy  with anything that makes Europe and the West commit to waging GWOT of which it is a major beneficiary. These attacks in Paris and the 'we are charlie' movement will only cause IS recruitment to skyrocket. As well sympathy for Palestinians is being damaged by the reiteration of the 'Islamist threat'.

But again Israeli involvement directly in CH is conjecture as is at least by the contents, the accusations by Gokcek. Perhaps though it will shake out some further corroboration from him or elsewhere. I do think that we will see a ramping up of imperial adventures in the Middle East, and moves on Syria,  more surveillance and security at home and Islamophobia legitimized even more. Cui Bono? should always be the first question and  Israel is certainly a beneficiary of the aftermath quite apart from any involvement or no

 

 

 

 

All good points.   

NDPP

I believe Mourad Hamyd was released yesterday. The 'ID' aspect of this thing sure seems 'fishy' to me

As was, IMHO, a kill-shot from an AK 47 fired into a cop's head at point black range -  a 7.62 x 39mm cartridge of 123 grains travelling 2000 feet per second with no visible blood spatter or body shock. CF seems to know all about it, so perhaps he can enlighten us all further as it's a question of interest to more than a few...?

NS NS's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Thanks NS. That last article does align more with my understanding of how most Muslims feel about t.

Though whatever you want to call it, the pictures have been reprinted here in this thread.

When I refered to blasphemy, I was thinking more of the motives of the murderers - the one heard yelling that the prophet was avenged - and all those who seem willing to take up knives, guns, or bombs just because people print pictures of Mohammed.

I did so, as I have explained a few times, to clarify that that blasphemy was at the core of their actions, just like the firebombing in Hamburg since then. Not any of the other alleged reasons that have been tacked on by critics.

 

Ok I take your point.

The gunmen's motivations were not completely clear until the audio of the gunmen came out on French TV and after AQAP took responsibility (I included their message in that thread)

It was only when we heard them articulate that they found the cartoons to be 'blasphemous', which gave mass media, commentators a lot time to speculate about the suspects' motives

In regards to the "Muslim world",  conventional wisdom prevails after 10 YEARS since the Danish cartoons - keep having the same debate without anything to back it up

NS NS's picture

 

Leaders "unite" for right to print illustrated racial slurs while journalists rot in their prisons

They should've had a banner that reads:"If anyone is going to murder people over what they write or say, it's going to be us!"

 

President Goodluck Jonathan of Nigeria

 

Pondering

NDPP wrote:

I believe Mourad Hamyd was released yesterday. The 'ID' aspect of this thing sure seems 'fishy' to me

As was, IMHO, a kill-shot from an AK 47 fired into a cop's head at point black range -  a 7.62 x 39mm cartridge of 123 grains travelling 2000 feet per second with no visible blood spatter or body shock. CF seems to know all about it, so perhaps he can enlighten us all further as it's a question of interest to more than a few...?

Thanks for the info on the young man.

The gun thing is a hoax. Paladin1 said it is possible for that to happen with a normal type bullet that doesn't explode or anything.

KenS

Pondering wrote:

The gun thing is a hoax. Paladin1 said it is possible for that to happen with a normal type bullet that doesn't explode or anything.

Correct.

That I know. And I suspect it would be harder to achieve with some kind of hollow point or 'exploding' bullet.

NDPP

March of the Hypocrites  -  by Justin Raimondo

'In Paris they march for 'free speech' - and they'll soon be marching off to war'

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2015/01/11/march-of-the-hypocrites

"...That politicians would steal the spotlight and turn the sincere outrage of millions into an opportunity for self advertisement in hardly surprising. Sincerity has its uses, however, and these will soon become apparent in the days and weeks to come. Those marchers will soon be cheering their own soldiers as they go marching off to war, with 'Je suis Charlie' inscribed on their banners.

The target? Syria, where 'links' have been found...

 

Ali Abunimah: Israel Moves Quickly To Exploit Paris Attacks

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israel-moves-quickly-ex...

"While Netanyahu was certainly playing to a domestic audience, his presence in Paris is also part of Israel's swift move to capitalize on the horror in France on a number of fronts: to attack the Palestinians, to sharpen the discourse of a 'war of civilizations' and to speed up the population transfer of Jews from Europe to Israel..."

Je suis Bibi

Bec.De.Corbin Bec.De.Corbin's picture

Russian Media, Turkish Politicians Suggest U.S., Israeli Involvement in Paris Attacks

Quote:

Conspiracy theories are swirling around last week’s  terror attacks in Paris, and beyond the customary fringe websites, they  are being aired by Turkish politicians and mainstream Russian and  Iranian media outlets.

Those making – or hinting at – the claims would have the world  believe that U.S. or Israeli intelligence services were behind the  attacks on the offices of the Charlie Hebdo newspaper and a  kosher supermarket, which together with a street shooting left 17  victims and three terrorists dead over three days.

A mass circulation Russian newspaper, Komsomolskaya Pravda, ran a front-page headline Monday asking whether “the Americans” were behind the Paris terror attacks.

In the related story, a political analyst, Col. Alexander Zhilin,  linked his theory to differences between the U.S. and European Union  over sanctions against Russia in response to the Ukraine crisis.

Zhilin, who heads a body called the Moscow Center for the Study of  Applied Problems, said immediately after French President Francois  Hollande on January 5 raised doubts about continuing with the sanctions,  he – Zhilin – had predicted that terror attacks could now be expected  in France.

The U.S. needed a way to consolidate U.S.-E.U. unity over the  sanctions, he said, and planning a terror attack was a “cheap and  effective” option.

Separately, Komsomolskaya Pravda interviewed Russian economist Mikhail  Khazin, head of a consulting firm called Neoconomics. He wondered who  benefited most from the Paris attacks, and concluded that the primary  beneficiary was the United   States.

“Let me add that in the elite of the United States there are several  groups, each of which has its own opportunities to promote and organize  such attacks,” he was quoted as saying.

Khazin went on to list others who, in his view, could also benefit  from the attacks, including Britain, Saudi Arabia and “Islamic State,  al-Qaeda and so on” – although he added that the latter possibility was  “the least likely.”

Other reports in the paper highlighted skepticism expressed by some  quarters over the attacks, with one headline highlighting a comment by  an Arab café waiter in Paris: “Someone needs a war between Muslims and  Christians …”

In Iran, the Press TV broadcaster ran on its website an article by Paul Craig Roberts, a columnist, former U.S. Treasury official, and 9/11 conspiracy theorist, who wrote that one way of seeing the attack on Charlie Hebdo “is as an attack designed to shore up France’s vassal status to Washington.”

“The suspects can be both guilty and patsies,” said Roberts. “Just  remember all the terrorist plots created by the FBI that served to make  the terrorism threat real to Americans.”

On Roberts’ own website, he also highlights reports from other  sources suggesting that the Paris attacks were a “false flag operation” –  that is, a covert operation designed to point a finger at a purported  perpetrator, while the actual mastermind’s identity remains hidden.

“Whether or not it is a false flag operation, the shootings are being used for a wider purpose or purposes,” he said.

Those purposes could include “bringing France back into Washington’s  orbit,” stifling “the growing European sympathy for the Palestinians,”  and countering “the rising opposition in Europe to more Middle Eastern  wars,” Roberts charged.

But of course... B-/

6079_Smith_W

NS wrote:

In regards to the "Muslim world",  conventional wisdom prevails after 10 YEARS since the Danish cartoons - keep having the same debate without anything to back it up

Not sure what you mean there. Not trying to put you on the spot, just asking. And yes, I am using "Muslim world" as shorthand understanding that many are secular.

Pages

Topic locked