Mainstream Media and Wikileaks

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Pope Teddywang Pope Teddywang's picture

Scanning through the list of livetorrent's links, i see one pearl amongst the poo...

Possibly a cointelpro-style trick to discredit the Michel Chossudovsky article in your minds before you have read it ?

Curiouser.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=22389

livetorrent

(updated)

It is empirical that you perform an unprejudiced analysis focusing primarily upon the data and evidence presented in the following links rather than wasting your time arguing over banal trivia like Assange's sexual orientation and other pointless distractions. These links are for educational purposes only.  If you don't want to focus on the hard facts in these articles and you don't want to analyse them before posting your opinion, then I suggest you don't say anything at all... otherwise you are merely wasting your and other peoples valuable time while filling up babble with empty arguments.  Fiat Lux.

Wikileaks busted by Co-Founder of Wikileaks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uonufE_jG-8

Of anybody I would trust the opinion of the Co-Founder of Wikileaks above any outsider. The Co-Founder claims that Wikileaks releases disinformation and "some of them (leaks) are completely phony, some of them are jokes that the intel people played, some of them are totally useless." And "This is just a dump of all kinds of material so we do not know for sure whether it is valuable or not."

GORDON DUFF INTERVIEW ON THE HOUR SKY TV (VIDEO)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XO45VxqjfJU

"Gordon Duff appears on IQRA TV in London, U.K. discussing the WikiLeaks issue with host, Rayaz Ahmed. Gordon Duff is a Marine Vietnam veteran, and Senior Editor at Veterans Today. His career has included extensive experience in international banking along with such diverse areas as consulting on counter insurgency, defense technologies or acting as diplomatic officer of UN humanitarian groups. Gordon Duffs articles are published around the world and translated into a number of languages. He is regularly on TV and radio, a popular and sometimes controversial guest."

RussiaToday: Declassified: Massive Israeli manipulation of US media exposed
"Files declassified in America have revealed covert public relations and lobbying activities of Israel in the U.S. The National Archive made the documents public following a Senate investigation. They suggest Israel has been trying to shape media coverage of issues it regards as important. "
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kureFeGmoDI

It is fundamental to understand the history of banking dynasty, the House of Rothschild, their near total control of western media, and its relationship with Israel in order to grasp the AIPAC / Israeli Wikileaks phenomenon.  You will not find a better article than this:

ZAHIR EBRAHIM: THE INVISIBLE HOUSE OF ROTHSCHILD: VETERANS TODAY

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/12/14/zahir-ebrahim-the-invisible-hous...

"The House of Rothschild controls Israel. It created Israel. And more than that, it created a political philosophy, note a POLITICAL PHILOSOPHY, called ZIONISM.What they have brilliantly done, though it’s breaking down, is they have equated Jewish people as a race with Zionism, which is a political philosophy. And at its core is a secret society, connects into the other secret societies.And, so if you challenge Zionism, and its horrors, and its impositions, and its hypocrisy, and its slaughter, you are equated with being prejudiced against Jewish people."

 See, if people just took a breadth, and looked at the whole scene, they would ask serious questions:

The Balfour Declaration November 2nd 1917

[ Why is the Balfour Declaration addressed to a Rothschild? ]

Rothschilds' Monument to Justice in Zionistan

[ Why is Israel's Supreme Court in Jerusalem built by the Rothschilds? ]

Wikileaks + MSM Hype = ?: 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfdfFd5_nBo

Using WikiLeaks to Advance the Narrative of War on Iran
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tehranbureau/2010/12/using-wikileaks-to-advance-the-narrative-of-war-on-iran.html?utm_campaign=homepage&utm_medium=feeds&utm_source=feeds

What the Media Does Not Say About the Anti-Iran Leaks: http://original.antiwar.com/sahimi/2010/12/06/what-the-media-does-not-sa...

This three part series is without equal:

WikiLeaks is ZioPoison!2 Part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEtDpUsMb2w
WikiLeaks is ZioPoison!2 Part 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hw6m2u3VPAQ
WikiLeaks is ZioPoison!2 Part 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i_SHi8yfaE

 
Wikileaks and the Israel Connection - Mark Dankoff and Mark Glenn TheUglyTruth Podcast

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hYpC4lxP-4s

Mark Dankof joins the program to discuss the latest wikileaks controversy and the likelihood that indeed it was at least partially an Israeli intel operation aimed at harming the United States' ability to operate diplomatically.

Source: http://theuglytruth.podbean.com/2010/12/18/the-ugly-truth-podcast-dec-18...
READ MORE: Avowed Talmudist to decide issue of 'Internet neutrality' in U.S.
http://800pg.co.cc/geeklog//article.php?story=20101217040544551

 Sex, Lies, Iran, Israel and WikiLeaks (another five star movie)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TheJPboU4c

Michael Chossudovsky: Who is Behind Wikileaks?
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/12/14/michael-chossudovsky-who-is-behi...
"Who is Behind Wikileaks? by Michel Chossudovsky http://www.globalresearch.ca/ December 13, 2010 World bankers, by pulling a few simple levers that control the flow of money, can make or break entire economies. By controlling press releases of economic strategies that shape national trends, the power elite are able to not only tighten their stranglehold on this [...]"

GORDON DUFF: BUSTED! LATEST WIKILEAKS ISRAEL PRESS TALKINGPOINT
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/12/13/gordon-duff-busted-latest-wikileaks-israel-press-talkingpoint/

"The current Wikileak dump has had a number of talkingpoint dumps in order to properly exploit pro-Israel press assets in the blogger world. These talkingpoints expose seeded intelligence meant to support an attack on Iran, the primary purpose of the current Assange/Murdoch/Israel output. Not only do members of the mainstream press receive these talking points but dozens of alternative or internet media sources as well. It has become increasingly obvious that many internet news sources that describe themselves as alternative or even anti-Zionist are totally controlled."

Julian Assange Is A CIA Mossad MI6 Asset WikiLeaks Is Secret Operation Webster Tarpley:
Link A: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKkPUJf0nis
Link B: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwiU253JH0A
Link C: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtARbMgpuv4

Wikileaks Israels Plan to Shut Down US Internet in Action 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ny_MQsP-ZRQ

JEWISH APPOINTEES COULD END FREE INTERNET (National Prayer Network)
http://www.truthtellers.org/alerts/jewishappointeesendinternet.html
Israels 9-11 is being exposed they will use their creation WikiLeaks to shut the US Internet Down

"Julian Assange censors cables dealing with Israel and calls 9/11 Truthers "annoying". Assange staked the reputation of Wikileaks on the public never learning about Building 7. So ask yourself: Who would want to silence the biggest controversy in history? Why is Julian Assange doing this? Who is he?"

Wikileaks' Assange's Lawyer has connections to Rothschilds
http://wakeupfromyourslumber.com/blog/sullivan/wikileaks-assanges-lawyer...

GENERAL SAYS WIKILEAKS IS CIA AND MOSSAD
http://aangirfan.blogspot.com/2010/11/general-says-wikileaks-is-cia-and....

GORDON DUFF: BUSTED -- WIKILEAKS WORKING FOR ISRAEL
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/12/08/gordon-duff-busted-wikileaks-wor...

BUSTED!! WIKILEAKS STRUCK A DEAL WITH ISRAEL OVER CABLE LEAKS
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/12/08/wikileaks-struck-a-deal-with-isr...

GORDON DUFF: WIKILEAKS, A TOUCH OF ASSANGE AND THE STENCH OF AIPAC
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/11/27/gordon-duff-wikileak-predictions...

Wikileaks Israeli Intel Operation Jeff Gates - Mark Glenn - Wiki Leaks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iehF5vjc5tA

Michael Chossudovsky: Who is Behind Wikileaks?
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/12/14/michael-chossudovsky-who-is-behi...

GORDON DUFF: WIKI-WARNING -- LITTLE GREEN MEN COMING
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/12/16/gordon-duff-wiki-warning-little-...

Wikileaks the Agent of Chaos?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yt_9p7db9Bw

WikiLeaks is ZioPoison!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYIC2BMhE5A

Wikileaks is a Jew job. 100%
http://theinfounderground.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13285

WikiLeaks 'struck a deal with Israel' over diplomatic cables leaks
http://theinfounderground.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13447

The Wiki (Israel) Leaks Russia Today News
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sKV7DZmF6k

JEFF GATES : WIKILEAKS THE TEL AVIV CONNECTION
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/11/30/jeff-gates-wikileaks--the-tel-aviv-connection/

JOE QUINN: Wiki-Leaks Serves Israeli Agenda Of Demonizing Iran
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2010/11/30/joe-quinn-wiki-leaks-serves-isra...

 

Enjoy!

 

(updated)

2dawall

One odd exception to the anti-Wikileaks chorus is Saturday Night Live. The broadcast 8 days ago had Weekend Update mention that Assange's main crime was getting us to read. Last night, for the second week in a row they featured a skit whereby Assange interrupts someone else's show - while the actor really exaggerates if not fabricates a creepiness I do not actually notice in the real Assange, he does cheekily point out that Assange has really just torn the cloak off the emperor. You might want to check out the last two show to see what I mean. Really odd given Loren Michael's hostility to past prog political segments.

6079_Smith_W

2dawall wrote:

One odd exception to the anti-Wikileaks chorus is Saturday Night Live. The broadcast 8 days ago had Weekend Update mention that Assange's main crime was getting us to read. Last night, for the second week in a row they featured a skit whereby Assange interrupts someone else's show - while the actor really exaggerates if not fabricates a creepiness I do not actually notice in the real Assange, he does cheekily point out that Assange has really just torn the cloak off the emperor. You might want to check out the last two show to see what I mean. Really odd given Loren Michael's hostility to past prog political segments.

Oh I don't know about that. I rather liked the Newt Gringrich/It's A Wonderful Life mashup.

And he did let Neil MacDonald's brother stay on the air for awhile.

oldgoat

Jebus!  Mr. livetorrent is gone.  Quite the hard working little beaver though, isn't he?

2dawall

Well Michaels had edited out stuff for the syndicated versions of SNL. For example, that cartoon from 1998 where a TV Funhouse

called "Conspiracy Theory Rock" that parodied psa cartoons from the 70s and talked about NBC's subservience to General Electric, the

relationship between a West Coast producer and OJ Simpson, corporate welfare, etc. Michaels lied saying the piece was just not funny.

He also edited out the very beginning of a piece that began with Rob Schneider holding the book The Chomsky Reader rather prominently.

Michaels also edited out the peformance by FEAR.

Noah_Scape

SNL is not really "mainstream media", if only because it is on so late on a boozy weeknight, and that is is not "serious news" for the public. SNL does not carry the MSM message. 

What I was hoping for  - "what is MSM's message about WikiLeaks?" , or "How are they [mis]shaping the WikiLeaks story?"

What are they omitting is often a good clue.

 

MSM doesn't seem to be carrying the 'Leaked Iraq war torture cables > Link anyone?

 but they are telling about India's Kashmir torture that WikiLeaked - quote: {"According to WikiLeaks, International Committee of Red Cross told US diplomats in 2005 that security forces in Kashmir were using electrocution, sexual abuse and other methods of torture on Kashmiri detainees"} .

 

OR this: In a January 2008 meeting, US and Spain trade officials strategized how to increase acceptance of genetically modified foods in Europe by inflating non-GM food prices on the commodities market, according to a leaked US diplomatic cable released by WikiLeaks.

> http://dissidentvoice.org/2010/12/leaked-cable-hike-food-prices-to-boost...

copy of actual cable > http://213.251.145.96/cable/2008/02/08MADRID98.html

 

One last MSM omission:
Craig Kelly, the U.S. ambassador to Chile, drew up a secret list of strategies to undermine Hugo Chavez, the Venezuelan president.
> http://wikileaks.ch/U-S-secret-blueprint-to-undermine.html

 

 

2dawall

It is important to note that the corporate media is trying to overlook any revelations as to the US pushing genetically engineered foods down European throasts. I would hope some groups try to give this some push in the New Year.

Unfortunately SNL is mainstream news for some; many in the category of 18-30 are not bothering to watch those programs designated as news and instread use SNL, Daily Show, and Colbert as news sources. Seriously and that is a problem.

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

It's also to some degree a reflection of a critical view towards the MSM and initial weak attempts at looking for other or alternative sources of information. If more people in that age group watched Al-Jazeera, the Real News, Russia Today, Democracy Now, etc., then that would actually be a good thing, no?

2dawall

I wish that were the case. Democracy Now is not well promoted and Al Jazeera English is not widely available in Canada yet. Someone else here indicated that Al Jazeera English is nowhere near as good as its original counterpart but I have had no chance myself to make that evaluation.

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

It's as good or better than Russia Today - and certainly slicker with more bells and whistles. I just don't think that many of the programs designated as TV news are actually worth watching and, in some ways, are harmful. They evoke the worst sorts of sentiments and feelings from the viewers, dissipate energy for change, propagate news as entertainment and passivity as normal. When I say harmful I mean it.

Noah_Scape

Here is an article that touches on the issues of MSM and WikiLeaks > http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=22321 {"examples of how Wikileaks stories could be used to further a US imperialist agenda."}

 

 

One example is about Belarus [a succesfull socialist economy], where the USA wants to condemn Belarus as a "mafiosi state" and the MSM plays along... even where a WikiLeak is "telling the truth" the MSM manages to twist it around with omissions and highlights of what was said.

Quote: "This slanderous accusation released by Wikileaks against Belarus is a cogent example of how mass disseminated Wikileaks reports could operate in the coming months. The point here is not that the statement was manufactured by Wikileaks in order to demonise Belarus. Rather a statement published by Wikileaks is being used by the mainstream press to corroborate the lies which it itself has been spreading about the Republic of Belarus."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

NDPP

Wikileaks Leak? Norwegian Paper Claims Access to Entire Cache of Cables

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wikileaks-leak-norwegian-paper-claims-acc...

thorin_bane

Apple has pulled an app for wikileaks. Just another reason to dislike this bastard child of corporate america that pretends to not be one of the old boys network but in reality is.

Papal Bull

Wikileaks is an inverse NSA

 

I have to say, I am super disappointed in a variety of babblers for focusing on Assange As The Great Man narrative or focusing too heavily on the issue of the charges without giving a shit's thought to the deeper implications of Wikileaks, it's spiritual forebears and its active enemies.

 

Too much of the analysis is couched in terms that make no sense, using critical lenses that don't apply to a whole other damned reality. The MSM won't touch the truth about this, but neither will the alternative media because it shakes so much of the foundations of the mainstream AND the alternative world.

Noah_Scape

Papal Bull wrote:

Wikileaks is an inverse NSA

 

I have to say, I am super disappointed in a variety of babblers for focusing on Assange As The Great Man narrative or focusing too heavily on the issue of the charges without giving a shit's thought to the deeper implications of Wikileaks, it's spiritual forebears and its active enemies.

 

Too much of the analysis is couched in terms that make no sense, using critical lenses that don't apply to a whole other damned reality. The MSM won't touch the truth about this, but neither will the alternative media because it shakes so much of the foundations of the mainstream AND the alternative world.

 Well, in our defence I have to say that this is all a bit overwhelming - the bulk, the issues, etc. So, it may well be that we have gotten into a rut we have a hard time seeing out of.

  So go ahead, give us some details!! - what are the deeper implications?

  In YOUR defence, if I may, Global Research has published a few articles critical of WikiLeaks and their arrangements with MSM.

Quote from "Who is Behind WikiLeaks?"

 article > http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=22389

"The leaked cables are used to feed the disinformation campaign concerning Iran's Weapons of Mass Destruction. While the leaked cables are heralded as "evidence" that Iran constitutes a threat, the lies and fabrications of the corporate media concerning Iran's alleged nuclear weapons program are not mentioned, nor is there any mention of them in the leaked cables.

The leaks, once they are funnelled into the corporate news chain, edited and redacted by the New York Times, indelibly serve the broader interests of US foreign policy, including US-NATO-Israel war preparations directed against Iran."

- end quote -

  It could simply be that WikiLeaks got the MSM leaders such as the NYT, and even US government people, to redact and edit the release of cables in order to deflect critics who would say that these releases are irresponsible because they could endanger lives.

 

Noah_Scape

Meanwhile... "Swedish authorities put a stop to CIA rendition flights, according to the latest revelation from Wikileaks."

   Link> http://www.swedishwire.com/politics/7497-cia-rendition-flights-stopped-b...

 

This 'Leak was published back on Dec 5th 2010, and unless I missed it there was no reporting of it on our North American mainstream media. Did anyone see it? A quick Google search of that headline yielded NO results from mainstream American or Canadian newsites.

This information is important to anyone following the "crimes of the Bush government". The Swedes stopped these flights because they knew the prisoners would be subjected to inhumane tortures, and if they knew then certainly the American intelligence agencies knew it too. That might be enough to send a few Americans to the International Criminal Courts, or even to be tried in US courts.

 

NDPP

Written On the Body: The Progressive Torture of Bradley Manning

http://chris-floyd.com/component/content/article/1-latest-news/2067--wri...

"Yet tonight, in the tenth year of the 21st century, in the United States of America, under the leadership of The Nobel Peace Prize laureate Barack Obama, 23 year old Bradley Manning is being subjected to the same torture routinely inflicted on other unindicted, untried captives of the militarist state."

NDPP

WikiLeaks Exposed US and Hillary's Helplessness  - by Robert Fisk

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article27143.htm

"That Clinton should want her State Department slaves to play security agents on the poor old UN shows what an utterly worthless institution the US State Department has become...More and more, WikiLeaks is exposing teh hopeless nature of US foreign policy and that of its supposed 'allies'."

Cueball Cueball's picture

Hilarious.

NDPP

Capital's War Against WikiLeaks

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2010/12/29-11

"When your Swiss banker throws you overboard, you know you've made some very powerful enemies.."

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

I am unable to resist pointing out that one of the first deeds of the victorious Bolshevik goverment in Russia in October of 1917 ... was to publish all the secret treaties of the "Liberal" Kerensky regime and the Tsarist autocracy. Western governments never forgave them.

NDPP

Julian Assange, the Rosenberg Case and the Espionage Act of 1917 - by Robert Meeropol (Rosenberg)

http://www.zcommunications.org/julian-assange-the-rosenberg-case-and-the...

"This kind of attack threatens every left wing activist. I urge all progressives to come to the defense of Julian Assange should he be indicted for violating the Espionage Act of 1917.."

A_J

How WikiLeaks Just Set Back Democracy in Zimbabwe

The Atlantic wrote:

Last year, early on Christmas Eve morning, representatives from the U.S., United Kingdom, Netherlands, and the European Union arrived for a meeting with Zimbabwean opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai . . .

. . .

. . . Tsvangirai told the western officials that, while there had been some progress in the last year, Mugabe and his supporters were dragging their feet on delivering political reforms. To overcome this, he said that the sanctions on Zimbabwe "must be kept in place" to induce Mugabe into giving up some political power. The prime minister openly admitted the incongruity between his private support for the sanctions and his public statements in opposition. If his political adversaries knew Tsvangirai secretly supported the sanctions, deeply unpopular with Zimbabweans, they would have a powerful weapon to attack and discredit the democratic reformer.

Later that day, the U.S. embassy in Zimbabwe dutifully reported the details of the meeting to Washington in a confidential U.S. State Department diplomatic cable. And slightly less than one year later, WikiLeaks released it to the world.

The reaction in Zimbabwe was swift. Zimbabwe's Mugabe-appointed attorney general announced he was investigating the Prime Minister on treason charges based exclusively on the contents of the leaked cable. While it's unlikely Tsvangirai could be convicted on the contents of the cable alone, the political damage has already been done. The cable provides Mugabe the opportunity to portray Tsvangirai as an agent of foreign governments working against the people of Zimbabwe. Furthermore, it could provide Mugabe with the pretense to abandon the coalition government that allowed Tsvangirai to become prime minister in 2009.

It's difficult to see this as anything but a major setback for democracy in Zimbabwe . . .

. . .

Frmrsldr

Round and round (the wheel of political fortune) she goes. Where she stops, nobody knows.

If Mugabe does all as feard, perhaps the people and opposition forces might rise up, overthrow him and establish a benign government that is closer (in practise) to democracy.

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

If Tsvangirai was such a toady to the rich countries then the Zim opposition should be able to find a more patriotic replacement. I'm not really surprised by this revelation, mind you, as Tsvangirai spent a lot of time and energy re-gurgitating what Western bankers, and their governmental representatives, wanted.

But I suspect a more left wing opponent of Mugabe, who won't put his own political success ahead of the well being of the citizenry,  somehow won't get the same support from those governments, bankers, and the private media that represent their views.

6079_Smith_W

@ N.Beltov

I don't think supporting an unpopular measures like sanctions is by definition self-serving. For that matter, neither is taking the pragmatic step of dealing with western countries which may not be allies in all matters. No country can function without talking to its friends, nor with its enemies. And the two are often one and the same.

I can think of plenty of good policies in our country which do not have universal support - official bilingualism, registration of firearms, access to abortion, marriage equality, and the repeal of the death penalty. I think it is short-sighted to say that going against the will of much of the public (or even a majority) is to not have concern for their well-being. And in this specific case I think the notion that Tsvangari is just looking out for himself is a bit of a stretch.

For that matter there are Canadians who support trade barriers and sanctions against Canadian seal products, GMO food and tar sands oil. Are they self-serving, or traitors as well?

Like it or not, I think this is an example of Churchill's statement that sometimes the truth is so important that it must be accompanied by a bodyguard of lies.

(edit)

And to follow your analysis, a more left wing politician might not have western support, but he or she may also not necessarily be what the people of Zimbabwe want either. That is properly a matter for them to decide, international sanctions notwithstanding.

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

Look. The condition of Tsivangirai participating in a coalition government would be that he's not sabotaging that government. Pretty simple, really. The fact that his secret views - exposed to the light of day thanks to Wikileaks - are to undermine the government he's a part of by supporting sanctions probably will have a big effect on his role in that government. Maybe he's gone. I dunno. At the very least the Mugabe regime will have carte blanche to pretty well cast doubts on his honesty at any and every opportunity.

Lame duck? I would not be surprised if the rich countries quietly stop supporting Tsivangirai over the next while if he's no longer useful to them.

If you want to play with "definitions" then fine. Zimbabwe or - as it used to know when it was an white-minority racist Apartheid regime - Rhodesia has a long history of sanctions against various regimes there. They're not all the same ... unless you are of the view that the crime against humanity - Apartheid - is somehow equivalent to crimes of the Mugabe regime. I'd be curious how you would reply to such a question as I suspect your answer would reveal a great deal. But I'm just a cynical bastard, eh.

The sanctions include US-dominated lending agencies, such as the IMF, essentially dictating domestic policy - such as ending any and all land reform - as a condition for "aid". This is the same shit that they have been doing with South Africa to slow the pace of change.

Do you really want to line yourself up with the economic and financial institutions of the imperialist countries? This is what Tsivangirai has done and the Wikileaks leak proves it.

 

 

6079_Smith_W

*haha*

And I was concerned that I might be amping up the rhetoric a bit.

No. I don't think getting a share of the power means that Tsvangari is bound to support Mugabe in all things, expecially considering there is plenty of evidence that he might be governing that country himself had the election not been rigged. As I said, I think supporting sanctions against one's own country does not make one a traitor, even if one is an elected representative. If you disagree with me on that, fine.

As I also said pretty clearly, I don't think working with a foreign power in one thing makes one their agent.

And if you honestly think my statement means I think apartheid is no different than Mugabe's crimes there's not much point in trying to persuade you otherwise. On the other hand, whatever came before does not let Mugabe off the hook for his abuses.

How about these dockworkers? Were they also excusing apartheid through their lack of solidarity?

http://www.heraldscotland.com/dock-workers-and-police-send-china-arms-sh...

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

Anyone who has followed Zim closely knows about the arms shipment crap. I notice however, that you carefully avoided answering my question about the similarities, or differences, between sanctions against the Apartheid Ian Smith regime (about which you've said nothing) and sanctions against the Mugabe regime. I presume you will continue to avoid that question. lol.

Sanctions against that country have been many and varied. Arm waving abstractions about sanctions in general won't do in our discussion. 

If you're not prepared to address the specifics of the current sanctions, mainly by the US of course, then I'm not interested in arm-waving exercises that are short on facts.

Have a nice day.

 

... Supplemental ...

Quote:
As I also said pretty clearly, I don't think working with a foreign power in one thing makes one their agent.

You're really splitting hairs here, aren't you? And that foreign power is the US (or the US and the UK) which is the self-admitted global thug and policeman with, at last count, on the order of 800 - 1,000 military bases OUTSIDE the territory of the US proper, involvement in 2 military occupations in Iraq and Afghanistan, yadda yadda.

It's the kiss of death.

 

6079_Smith_W

@ N. Beltov

In the first place, sanctions are to be evaluated case-by-case on their own merit, so I don't see any more point in comparing the current ones with sanctions against Ian Smith than with the Red Stripe boycott. The only relevevant question - for me anyway -  is whether these current sanctions are valid.

And another supplemental... as with foreign powers,  supporting a politician on one issue - electoral reform, does not mean supporting him or her on all issues. Presumably if Tsvangari is successful in securing free and fair elections then the people will be able to pass their own judgement on his other policies and elect him or get rid of him. They certainly don't seem to have that freedom with Mugabe.

 

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

1. So is it "valid" to pretend to support a coalition government while economically sabotaging the country? How two-faced is good enough for ya? Other countries might consider such actions to be treasonable.

2. The land reform is the critical thing, policy wise. The IMF and its rich backers want that to come to an end and they will move heaven and earth to see to that. Tsivangirai on this issue is their friend. So he has a proven track record.

A_J

N.Beltov wrote:

So is it "valid" to pretend to support a coalition government while economically sabotaging the country?

But enough about Robert Mugabe . . .

Cueball Cueball's picture

Seems to me that Wikileaks did a good job at outing the opposition to Mugabe as people who are not above lying to the people of Zimbabwe. A political conniver, liar and opportunist, someone who put his political ambitions, first above the suffering of his own people. You really trust this person to be the shining light of a new "democratic" Zimbabwe?

People the world over deserve better.

I really don't see how the cause of democracy has been damaged at all.

6079_Smith_W

Happy New Year!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKRVV3NHAIg

And I don't mean skin colour.

 

A_J

Cueball wrote:
A political conniver, liar and opportunist, someone who put his political ambitions, first above the suffering of his own people.

Again, I thought we were talking about Tsvangari, not Mugabe.

But in all seriousness - would your response be the same if we were talking about someone in the Israeli government who had expressed their support for the BDS campaign?  Perhaps telling Palestinian activists and their allies that while unpopular in Israel, boycotts and divestment may be successful in putting pressure on the government?

Or is this another example of the soft-spot some on the left seem to have for Mugabe, all because once upon a time he actually supported and fought for a decent and worthwhile cause in removing white-minority rule (of course, everything he's done since then has been anything but decent or worthwhile)?

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

Mugabe was an anti-Apartheid fighter. "White minority rule" doesn't cut it. It's very instructive to see how you have censored that word from your own lexicon ... even in reference to documented and universally agreed examples of that crime against humanity. Interesting.

And you were lecturing people on the political left about this and that? Yes, that too is interesting.

contrarianna

A_J wrote:

....But in all seriousness - would your response be the same if we were talking about someone in the Israeli government who had expressed their support for the BDS campaign?  Perhaps telling Palestinian activists and their allies that while unpopular in Israel, boycotts and divestment may be successful in putting pressure on the government?

Or is this another example of the soft-spot some on the left seem to have for Mugabe, all because once upon a time he actually supported and fought for a decent and worthwhile cause in removing white-minority rule (of course, everything he's done since then has been anything but decent or worthwhile)?

There are two issues here: the blaming of Wikileaks for subverting democracy by leaks
and, the conspiring of Tsvangari with the US on sanctions.

The core of the Atlantic's Albon's claim is:
"Whatever happens, democratic reforms in Zimbabwe are far less likely now than before the leak."

One does not have to be a fan of the thug Mugabi to see something wrong with this picture: the suggestion that secret collusion with US interests, the biggest habitual subvertor of democracy in the world, was/is a path to representative democracy in Zimbabwe is a big, big stretch.

No, supporting sanctions against ones own country does not necessarily make one a traitor.
Mandella, for example, supported sanctions against SA. However, he did so openly, not lying as Tsvangari did that he was against sanctions in order to dishonestly maintain support amongst his followers (who largely oppose sanctions). Is this some new definition of "democratic reform"?

Albon's focus on the one aspect of this one cable is essential to his illusion that Wikileaks is the problem, and that US interest are benign assistance.
Not all members of the opposition coalition are happy with US intervention:

from cable Harare638:

Quote:
[Ambassador Christopher Dell]
Welshman Ncube has proven to be a deeply divisive
and destructive player in the opposition ranks and the
sooner he is pushed off the stage, the better.  But he is
useful to many, including the regime and South Africa, so
is probably a cross to be borne for some time yet....

Quote:

In an angry telephone outburst from Harare, Ncube stormed: “I’m a politician and my future rests in the hands of voters who can vote for me, or choose not to vote for me.

“But when I lose an election, I don’t leave the stage but continue fighting over ideas. So if Dell is proposing that I be taken off stage, how do you do that without killing me?”...

Another establishment anti-Mugabi writer in Foreign Policy sees it very differently from the Atlantic's Albon:

Quote:
Mugabe Doesn't Need An Excuse
WikiLeaks is just a pretext. Zimbabwe's decrepit ruler has had the knives out for opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai all along.
BY ROBERT I. ROTBERG | DECEMBER 28, 2010  
....
Without a free poll monitored by international observers, there will be little the world can do to keep Mugabe or his many men from using his tried and true tactics of remaining in office. The decrepit president (if he still lives) and his generals will literally go to war before they willingly give up their corrupt gains, diamond wealth, and unholy power...

Cueball Cueball's picture

A_J wrote:

Cueball wrote:
A political conniver, liar and opportunist, someone who put his political ambitions, first above the suffering of his own people.

Again, I thought we were talking about Tsvangari, not Mugabe.

But in all seriousness - would your response be the same if we were talking about someone in the Israeli government who had expressed their support for the BDS campaign?  Perhaps telling Palestinian activists and their allies that while unpopular in Israel, boycotts and divestment may be successful in putting pressure on the government?

My response is that Marawan Barghouti is presently rotting in an Israeli jail for openly expressing his support for the BDS campaign, among other things. He, and others like him are not on the Israeli payroll while secretly conspiring with Iran to undermine the Israeli economy. Notably others in South Africa went to jail for openly stating their views about the Apartheid regieme. The difference is between skulking around and having in camera meeting with the enemies of the state that is paying your salary, and lying to the people you say you are trying to help about what you believe and what you support.

If indeed Tsavangari's position is as he states it is to western diplomats, it would seem that if he had any integrity he would resign as prime minister.

Good on Wikileaks for outing another opportunistic liar.

6079_Smith_W

Cueball wrote:

If indeed Tsavangari's position is as he states it is to western diplomats, it would seem that if he had any integrity he would resign as prime minister.

Which would accomplish.... nothing.

I don't think there are too many in politics who think they can keep their hands and coats clean and not make difficult decisions,  compromise, reverse and even veil the truth on occasion.

Frankly I see a bit more eye-to-eye with a politician who is aware of that reality and isn't afraid to make difficult decisions in the interest of keeping  his or her eye on the important goals, rather than act like some martyr on the cross.

If the people want him gone because of this revelation I am sure they will let him know, and that is the most important thing in my opinion

 

Cueball Cueball's picture

Importatn goals like keeping an important political post, drawing a nice salary and being able at the same time collude with the enemies of the government you are supposed to represent in the hope that you can keep a toe in both camps, and catch any low hanging fruit in the future?

NDPP

"US Ambassador Dell's publicized cable exposes the lack of confidence he has for many of the leaders in their neo-colonial pawn party, Movement for Democratic Change (MDC) that he and the US brazenly support along with the rest of the Western powers.."

Zimbabwe and the Steep Road to Vindication  - by Netta Freeman

http://www.voltairenet.org/article167820.html

NDPP

The Minsk Election in a Wikileaks Mirror  -  by Israel Shamir

http://www.counterpunch.org/shamir12312010.html

"Wikileaks once again has provided proof positive to unlock a mystery. It's not the stuff of attention grabbling headlines and retweets, but it does illustrate how the US State Department can orchestrate riots in a quiet Eastern European country.."

N.Beltov N.Beltov's picture

Sinéad O'Connor in The Emperor's New Clothes wrote:

through their own words /
they will be exposed /
they've got a severe case of /
the emperor's new clothes.

... on and on it goes and the hubris, contempt for democracy, and the million and one slimy things that this terrible and violent regime does as a matter of routine business gets made public. The Emperor indeed has no clothes. lol.

 

NDPP

Republicans Prioritise WikiLeaks Investigation

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jan/03/republicans-wikileaks-invest...

"Republican party plans to hold congressional inquiry into organisation following release of classified cables.."

2dawall

'Darrell Issa, who will take over as chair of the House of Representatives oversight committee and is calling for Holder's resignation, said of Assange in a television interview on Sunday: "If the president says, 'I can't deal with this guy as a terrorist,' then he has to be able to deal with him as a criminal, otherwise the world is laughing at this paper tiger we've become."

I wish someone like George Soros would buy a billboard and put this quote up somewhere. This is it, this is the essenstial truth of everything that this whole furor has been about: pure payback for exposing the US as a hollowed-out, has-been empire on the verge of collapse.

Thanks for article link, NoParticularDifference.

contrarianna

To return to the Zimbabwe cables for a moment:

As expected, the amplified, viral dissemination in the MSM & blogosphere  on the moral turpitude of Wikileaks in endangering lives (as opposed to, say, the genteel moral slaughter of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis based on a pack of lies).

It turns out that Wikileaks contractual partner, The Guardian, also joined the hand-wringing--but wait there's a slight problem:

Quote:

7:30 "X7o" at WL Central rips James Richardson piece in The Guardian today that used the term "Collateral Murder" for possible result of Wiki cablegate on Zimbadwe. Among issues raised is one we noted today: That The Guardian itself seems to have been first to post the fateful cable. Just now the "official" @WikiLeaks twitter feed added: "It is not acceptable the Guardian to blame us for a cable the Guardian selected and published on Dec 8."

http://www.thenation.com/blog/157451/blogging-wikileaks-news-views-day-38

Snert Snert's picture

Quote:
Or is this another example of the soft-spot some on the left seem to have for Mugabe

 

Yes, absolutely. That, and Tsvangirai doesn't hate the US enough.

 

Quote:
it would seem that if he had any integrity he would resign as prime minister.

 

Before or after he has an "unfortunate accident"? Mugabe should have some kind of affinity card or something -- nine politically motivated beatings or rapes and the tenth is free.

 

Sorry, but sharing a country with a Marxist hero like Mugabe doesn't really allow a guy the opportunity to just speak plainly.

 

 

Unionist

Just joining the Zimbabwe discussion to quote from the leaked cable:

Quote:
The prime minister openly admitted the incongruity between his private support for the sanctions and his public statements in opposition. If his political adversaries knew Tsvangirai secretly supported the sanctions, deeply unpopular with Zimbabweans, they would have a powerful weapon to attack and discredit the democratic reformer.

As pointed out in various ways by Beltov, contrarianna, Cueball, et al, this has nothing to do with what one thinks of Mugabe, his past and present. It doesn't even have much to do with what you think of sanctions.

The key thing is that Tsvangirai - knowing that Zimbabweans hated and suffered from the sanctions - kept his support for them secret.

Had he argued for his views openly and publicly, Zimbabweans could pass judgment. But when he kept them secret, it starts to sounds a lot like treason - not treason to Mugabe or the coalition government, but to the interests and wishes of his fellow citizens. It was their judgment that he feared.

Freedom 55

NoDifferencePartyPooper wrote:

The Minsk Election in a Wikileaks Mirror  -  by Israel Shamir

 

I'm disgusted that CounterPunch hasn't cut ties with this racist anti-Semite.

 

http://www.scottishpsc.org.uk/Statements/israel-shamir-admires-the-bnp-h...

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