The New Russophobia 2

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Unionist

lagatta4 wrote:

You are defending capitalist Russia, not the Left. I've been an activist for about 50 years and spit on your insults. 

Lagatta:

1. You should learn to use the "quote" function, so that people can figure out who and what you're talking about. Sometimes I have to scroll back 3 days to figure out what you've responded to.

2. Repeating every 5 seconds that Russia is capitalist and imperialist gets tiresome. It's patronizing to activists here who fought against U.S. and Soviet and Canadian and British and French and other imperialism for decades. It will never convince the 1 or 2 people who hold a different opinion. Most troubling to me, however, is the effort here by some to say "U.S., Russia, all the same".

In 1939, the Communist Party of Canada, along with many other Communist parties around the world, slavishly followed Moscow's policy of the day and refused to speak a nasty word against Hitler Germany's aggression and atrocities - until 1941, when Hitler invaded the Soviet Union, and all of a sudden they uncritically became the biggest war boosters (even though they had meanwhile been banned).

You see, for the longest time, the CP upheld the line: "Germany, Britain, France, Poland, all capitalist, all imperialist, nothing to see here!" This dogmatic (and erroneous) line rendered them foolish and useless in the eyes of many progressive people - frittering away the great support they had accrued through their activism in the labour movement, the peace movement, the anti-fascist struggle (e.g. Spanish war), and so on. Other than isolated instances and regions where individual activists continued the good fight, the party as a whole never recovered. And no one who follows dogma, rather than the needs and voice of people, ever will.

So please. Write a post sometime which doesn't remind us that Russia is capitalist and imperialist. It is. But those are words. Don't tell me that Russia = U.S. One day it might be. So might China. But to say so today is to repeat mistakes that history teaches us we should not repeat.

6079_Smith_W

*sigh*

People are going to continue to compare how the two nations are similar in intent, if not in sheer power, where appropriate.

And if so much of the propaganda wasn't based on the alleged glory days it wouldn't be necessary to remind people that Russia is not the same as it was then, nor even the same as the myth. 

 

NDPP

Allegations Against Russia Less Credible Every Day  -  by David Swanson

http://davidswanson.org/node/5403

"...When I go on RT and suggest that the United States should end all its wars, and that Russia should too, I'm invited back on. The last US network to have me on was MSNBC, and I opposed US war-making and was never heard from again."

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I seldom agree with Michael Enright however he nails it in this column. I have been getting ever more testy because the idea of the US pointing fingers at Russia is so disgusting.  There is no moral equivalency between the US and any other power in the history of the post WWII world.

The hypocrisy of the US is bad enough but the MSM is now accusing progressives who don't buy that line of BS as being pro-Trump.  I hate Trump but frankly he is right that it did not affect the election. Even if the Russians did what the US security agencies say it did it did not change the election result. 

This board is not infested with Russian paid trolls anymore than it is infested with US paid trolls. So lets get back to a realistic debate and stop the nasty backbiting and relentless campaign against the dissident voices on this board.

Quote:

There is something hugely ironic, risible even, in Barack Obama's year-end fulminations about Russian hacking endeavours.

He accused Vladimir Putin and the Kremlin's intelligence agencies of interfering in the democratic practices and governance of the United States.

Ironic because no country has worked harder for decades to undermine the governance of other nations than the United States itself.

What got the president all steamed up was a series of reports from US intelligence agencies which said the Russians had hacked into the computers of the Democratic National Committee and used some embarrassing e-mails to swing the election to Donald Trump.

However accurate or not the allegation, Trump didn't need any help from the Russians. The DNC was busily losing the election all on its own.

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/thesundayedition/american-hypocrisy-on-russian-h...

 

Edzell Edzell's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:
There is no moral equivalency between the US and any other power in the history of the post WWII world.

How on earth would one quantify "moral equivalency?" And if we could, where would the Soviet Union fit? You seem to have missed them.

Quote:
The hypocrisy of the US is bad enough but the MSM is now accusing progressives who don't buy ... etc etc .... So lets get back to a realistic debate and stop the nasty backbiting......

Absolutely. You start. Got any verifiable facts we could evaluate, free of biased rhetoric? Yes I know that exists on both "sides." Personally I try to avoid identifying with a "side," and take ALL propaganda - including unprovable declarations - with a big pinch of salt.

So what's your first unbiased, verifiable fact?

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Edzell wrote:

So what's your first unbiased, verifiable fact?

Spies lie when it is in their interest. 

sherpa-finn

Sorry Unionist, but I am not sure I followed your mansplaining of history to lagatta.

The narrative is that Communist Parties globally at a certain pont in time turned a blind eye to the evils of fascism because of Moscow realpolitik and focused their energies and enmity instead upon the west. By so doing, the CP lost any broad base of support within the progressive elements of the west.

Fair enough. But the lesson learned of relevance to here and now is what exactly??  

___[who]____ is turning a blind eye to the evils of ___[what] ______ because their political analysis is being influenced by an external political agenda from __[where]_____ .  And this will do the progressive cause in the west irretrievable political harm over the long term because ___[why]____.  

Please fill in the blanks, if you don't mind.   

Edzell Edzell's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Edzell wrote:

So what's your first unbiased, verifiable fact?

Spies lie when it is in their interest. 

Invalid response.

sherpa-finn

An alternative perspective from Nick Cohen in The Guardian.  

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/07/russian-treachery-...

Cohen makes the case that the west’s Christian right (or as they apparently now call themselves the “civilisational right”) are eager to embrace Putin as an unapologetic foe of Islam.  So under the leadership of Trump, Le Pen & Co., Putin will not be a foe of the west but its great partner against Islam just as we once all were great partners against Hitler.  So, as I have said elsewhere, we are not looking at competing empires, but an emerging alliance of white / nationalist / Christian / corporatist conservatives.

What's not to like for western progressives?  

"In these circumstances, the support of the Labour leadership, Stop the War and the American Green party for Russian imperialism is incredible. Perhaps we should stop condemning the hypocrisy and malice of the far left and conclude it is just astonishingly stupid. The simplest explanations are often the best, after all."   Ouch.

NDPP

What a poisonous mish-mash of nonsense. Russia's relations with Islamic peoples and countries are immeasurably better than the sclerotic West's and its recent history of mass murdering endeavours, Iraq, Libya, Syria etc.  The malevolent and delusional scenarios of The Guardian, so recently responsible for making know-nothing liberals cheer wildly for Al Qaeda jihadis in Aleppo, and before that for the installation of a Nazi oligarchy in Kiev, should not be taken for anything but the mendacity and mischief-making they are. 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Edzell wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Edzell wrote:

So what's your first unbiased, verifiable fact?

Spies lie when it is in their interest. 

Invalid response.

Your response is what I suspected so you'll excuse me if I don't bother playing your silly game. If you don't understand what an axiomatic statement is then there is no common ground between us.  

Edzell Edzell's picture

NDPP wrote:
What a poisonous mish-mash of nonsense. Russia's relations with Islamic peoples and countries are immeasurably better than the sclerotic West's and its recent history of mass murdering endeavours, Iraq, Libya, Syria etc.  The malevolent and delusional scenarios of The Guardian, so recently responsible for making know-nothing liberals cheer wildly for Al Qaeda jihadis in Aleppo, and before that for the installation of a Nazi oligarchy in Kiev, should not be taken for anything but the mendacity and mischief-making they are.

Whoo, don't confuse us with any verifiable facts when rhetorical declarations larded with name-calling and adjectival sneering  will do.

NDPP

I don't intend to confuse you. Nick Cohen, however, is quite another matter...

Edzell Edzell's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:
there is no common ground between us. 
Quite so.

Edzell Edzell's picture

NDPP wrote:
I don't intend to confuse you. Nick Cohen, however, is quite another matter...
Don't know much about him, but reading his stuff, then yours, I doubt you'll cause him much confusion (should he ever get  to see it) other than to wonder at such an inarticulate, semi-coherent tirade.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Edzell wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

there is no common ground between us. 

Quite so.

May I ask is what has drawn you too our little community?

NDPP

You'll fit in just fine here Edzell..

Edzell Edzell's picture

kropotkin1951 wrote:

there is no common ground between us.

May I ask is what has drawn you too our little community?

You can ask, but there is no common ground so no answer.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Edzell wrote:

kropotkin1951 wrote:

there is no common ground between us.

May I ask is what has drawn you too our little community?

You can ask, but there is no common ground so no answer.

So explain to me why it seems like you think I pissed in your cornflakes.

Unionist

sherpa-finn wrote:

Sorry Unionist, but I am not sure I followed your mansplaining of history to lagatta.

Retract your gratuitous rudeness and I promise to read the rest of your post. 

NDPP

CrossTalk Bullhorns: Blaming RT

https://youtu.be/6TvrN613Wm0

"The much anticipated report on Russia's alleged hacking of the US election iso out - and it is underwhelming.

sherpa-finn

Unionist wrote:

sherpa-finn wrote:

Sorry Unionist, but I am not sure I followed your mansplaining of history to lagatta.

Retract your gratuitous rudeness and I promise to read the rest of your post. 

It was not meant to be gratuitous, U - my reading of your response to lagatta was that it was uncharacteristically patronizing. 

To be precise, - your need to explain basic operations and functions: " You should learn to use the "quote" function:....

It was selective and hyperbolic in its criticism "Repeating every 5 seconds that Russia is capitalist and imperialist gets tiresome."  

It tried to appropriate someone else's voice "So please. Write a post sometime which doesn't remind us that Russia is capitalist and imperialist.'

If I misread your intent - to diminish an ally over many years and causes because she disagrees with you on this one issue - I apologize. But that certainly was the impression your words left me with. And I was surprised.

lagatta is more than capable of expressing herself on this exchange, if she so wishes. So I will back off this conversation. But maybe, just maybe, means and ends are not quite so clearly wedded at the hip, as you argue in another thread.  

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

The Utter Stupidity of the New Cold War

Quote:
... the bottom line is: U.S. Russophobia does not rest on reason, judgment, knowledge of recent history and the ability to make rational comparisons. It rests on religious-like assumptions of “American exceptionalism” and in particular the right of the U.S. to expand militarily at Russia’s expense—-as an obvious good in itself, rather than a distinct, obvious evil threatening World War III.

The unexamined premise of Russophobia is, in essence, support for the US Empire. This is directly denied by "independent" Russophobes. Instead, the latter claim that they "just happen" to agree with the US regime 99 times out of 100.

NDPP

Some Guidance on the Russia Question  -  by Danny Haiphong

http://blackagendareport.com/guidance_on_russian_question

"...If criticism of Russia at this time takes precedence over fighting US imperialism, then a reexamination of the movement's priorities is in order. THe Russian people have chosen Putin as their leader and the privileging of criticism of the Russian government over organized struggle against the US war machine only helps the latter continue in its path of destruction.

The massive silence that can be heard regarding US war crimes must be broken. There exists a real danger that the movements of our time could be led down the anti-Russia path given the rabid way in which a section of the ruling class is currently promoting it.

But Russia did not systematically rob the working class in the US, nor did it erect the largest police and prison state in the world. Russia is not waging endless warfare around the world at the expense of billions. All of this belongs on the shoulders of US imperialism and it is time we make this clear as the era of Trump nears."

Edzell Edzell's picture

OOps! I thought this was a forum, not a movement.

6079_Smith_W

NDPP wrote:

Some Guidance on the Russia Question  -  by Danny Haiphong

"...If criticism of Russia at this time takes precedence over fighting US imperialism, then a reexamination of the movement's priorities is in order.

Or perhaps a small lesson in walking and chewing gum at the same time.

voice of the damned

NDPP wrote:

 

But Russia did not systematically rob the working class in the US, nor did it erect the largest police and prison state in the world. Russia is not waging endless warfare around the world at the expense of billions.

The residential schools in Canada didn't do any of that stuff either. So why do we waste time talking about them, when we SHOULD be fighting US imperialism!

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

voice of the damned wrote:

NDPP wrote:

 

But Russia did not systematically rob the working class in the US, nor did it erect the largest police and prison state in the world. Russia is not waging endless warfare around the world at the expense of billions.

The residential schools in Canada didn't do any of that stuff either. So why do we waste time talking about them, when we SHOULD be fighting US imperialism!

Strange analogy. Residential schools and a country. So because our government was complicit in abusing generations of indigenous youth it requires us to accept that we should ignore British and US imperialism to focus on the evil Russians.  

While I have no problem walking and chewing gum what I have a problem with is my tax dollars being used to engage in massive war games on the Russian border, at the same time as our oligarchy's news media is vilifying the Russians as the aggressor. 

We went from a saber rattling Harper to a saber rattling Trudeau but hey in Canada it seems we need to be Ready Aye Ready to live up to our NATO commitment to ensure the hegemony of the NATO countries financial institutions. Don't look at the plank in our own eye lets point to the speck in the eye of the Russian voters who elected Putin instead of some Western friendly door mat.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Russophobia in the UK: the establishment has  just gone phucking nuts.

No, really. A country that once prided itself on being the less trigger-happy cousin to the US regime is now officially ... batty.  Mad as a hatter.

Quote:

The latest hit-piece talks about a man called Christopher Steele who once worked for the British diplomatic corps in Moscow and more recently had been in both public and private sector intelligence. If the Daily Mail is to be believed, he has run away from his home begging the neighbours to look after his cats. The implication is that Mr. Steele is afraid of big bad Russia when frankly he ought to be facing an ethics investigation in Britain, the US, and arguably both.

No one has said exactly what he is afraid of, though the Daily Mail hinting at it by saying that he had once worked with Andrey Litvinenko, the FSB defector whom the British accuse the Russians of poisoning with polonium.  Perhaps he’s actually afraid of looking silly?...

This whole saga is operationally more reminiscent of Johnny English than James Bond.  Far from being smooth and sophisticated, the whole thing is a bit cartoonish.

Harmless "fun" ... as certain babblers would have us believe (when denial doesn't work, that is) ? Nope.

Quote:
... the new breed of Russia haters in the UK Parliament, British intelligence agencies, and in the BBC and the news media, are dangerous.  I truly believe that these people mean what they say.  They have a kind of pathological hatred for Russia that is more ingrained than what I see as the crass opportunism of the anti-Russian American Deep State....  Something has really gone wrong in Britain. A country which can’t even decide if it is European or Commonwealth or one and a half-islands alone in the world, is perfectly certain that Russia is wicked.

Russia is wicked! Russia is wicked!

And if you don't agree .. then you're wicked too!

Edzell Edzell's picture

Personally if it comes to taking at face value the propaganda of either the US or Russia - or any government, tabloid paper, business leader or Johnny-one-note opinionator here, I pass.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
So because our government was complicit in abusing generations of indigenous youth it requires us to accept that we should ignore British and US imperialism to focus on the evil Russians. 

If concerning yourself with one thing necessitates ignoring all other things, I think that might be what the "walking and chewing gum" comment was referring to.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:

So because our government was complicit in abusing generations of indigenous youth it requires us to accept that we should ignore British and US imperialism to focus on the evil Russians. 

If concerning yourself with one thing necessitates ignoring all other things, I think that might be what the "walking and chewing gum" comment was referring to.

I'm glad you agreed with my sarcastic response. You were agreeing weren't you?

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Actually, no.  If you feel that you need to "ignore British and US imperialism to focus on the evil Russians" then that's a multitasking fail.

If you can only concern yourself with one thing at a time, and feel you must ignore all other things if you are to consider one thing, then you're "monotasking" instead of "multitasking".

I'm not saying you need to "focus on the evil Russians".  But if the REAL reason you cannot consider them is because you can only consider one thing at a time then the walking and chewing gum analogy fits.

NDPP

America's Russian Dybbuk

http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/01/12/americas-russian-dybbuk/

"...Apparently, the Democrats and their partners within the Republican cabal, particularly McCain and Graham, believe that Mr Putin qualifies as an evil spirit, a super dybbuk, who controls the destiny of American politics - and even the Vermont electrical grid.

Anyone who questions this is simply possessed, which obviously includes the soon-to-be White House Zombie, Mr Trump. The clever demon, they insist, acted as chief opposition researcher for the Trump campaign.

Everyone from Hillary Clinton's campaign manager, Robby Mook, to Obama and Clinton herself, along with their pet media pundits and their yes men (and women) in the CIA, backed the claim that 'Russian state actors' working under orders from no less than the dybbuk himself, hacked DNC and Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta's emails in order to elect Donald Trump. Putin's response was that if Ameria's elections could be so easily manipulated, it must be a banana republic. 

The Russian hacking story originated with 'research' done by a group of private consulting firms attached to the Democratic Party. To date, neither the CIA nor the Obama administration has revealed any real evidence of Russian state involvement in the alleged hackings, nor have the mainstream media.

The media's lapse in not insisting on evidential confirmation raises the question of who are the real hacks?"

 

voice of the damned

kropotkin1951 wrote:

voice of the damned wrote:

NDPP wrote:

 

But Russia did not systematically rob the working class in the US, nor did it erect the largest police and prison state in the world. Russia is not waging endless warfare around the world at the expense of billions.

The residential schools in Canada didn't do any of that stuff either. So why do we waste time talking about them, when we SHOULD be fighting US imperialism!

Strange analogy. Residential schools and a country. So because our government was complicit in abusing generations of indigenous youth it requires us to accept that we should ignore British and US imperialism to focus on the evil Russians.  

While I have no problem walking and chewing gum what I have a problem with is my tax dollars being used to engage in massive war games on the Russian border, at the same time as our oligarchy's news media is vilifying the Russians as the aggressor. 

We went from a saber rattling Harper to a saber rattling Trudeau but hey in Canada it seems we need to be Ready Aye Ready to live up to our NATO commitment to ensure the hegemony of the NATO countries financial institutions. Don't look at the plank in our own eye lets point to the speck in the eye of the Russian voters who elected Putin instead of some Western friendly door mat.

The article posted by NDPP suggested that we shouldn't criticize Russia, because Russia doesn't run the American war machine and prison system, or rip off the American working class. My reference to the resedential schools was an ad absurdum, ie. if we follow Black Agenda's criteria, there is going to be a whole host of issues we shouldn't be discussing. Residential schools were just a case at hand, I could have used examples from anywhere in the world to make my point.

Now, if you want to say we shouldn't criticize Russia, because Russia is standing up to Uncle Sam, or we shouldn't be menacing Russia militarily because it's harmful to their people and the world, then fine, but that's not what Black Agenda was arguing.

 

bagkitty bagkitty's picture

sherpa-finn wrote:

ikosmos wrote:

I think Canada is, by far, the most foaming, rabid, death-loving Russophobic country in the world. But it would be a waste of time to "convince" those already convinced ....

.... particularly when the available evidence does not actually support that view. Awkward.

Pew Research does an annual survey of assorted global attitutes and trends, and from their 2015 survey of attitudes towards Russia, Canadians are pretty much in the middle of the pack (of 39 countries) in terms of anti-Russian sentiment. Perhaps not surprisingly, those who know Russia best (ie Europeans) are the most "russophobic". Allthough the survey does note that strong anti-Russian sentiment amongst European progressives is mitigated by increasing pro-Russian sentiment within right wing elements of the population. So Putin does have his friends...

Opinion of Russia Largely Unfavorable

Source: "Russia, Putin Held in Low Regard around the World"

http://www.pewglobal.org/2015/08/05/russia-putin-held-in-low-regard-arou...

 

@sherpa_finn:

Thanks for sharing, it was an interesting read. I did pay particular notice to the difference in responses between the different age cohorts in the Canadian sample - I wonder if the results would have been as different if knowledge of the draconian Russian "gay propaganda" legilsation was receiving the kind of attention it deserves.

nicky

Yes, Putin is just so wonderful. And an animals lover too!!!

 

Image result for putin bear

Mobo2000

The gay propaganda laws are an interesting and relevant example to the issue the Black Agenda report and VOTD raised.   The Black Agenda report is talking about how DNC/mainstream liberal media "dogwhistles" the left in support of imperial projects.

Why did news of the gay propaganda laws dominate american media a few years ago?   I don't believe it was out of any honest concern for gay russians.   Rather it coincided with a long running propaganda campaign to villify Russia and drum up support for future American actions.   If it were motivated by sincere concern for gay rights, then why has there not been a similar media campaign around Saudi Arabia or any number of countries where the US and Canada does business?

Progressive people are often characterized by their empathy.  By concern for equality, human rights.   We are about empathy.   Mainstream liberal media will engage and stir up progressive people's natural empathy in selective ways to further their own goals -  Look at the awful things are enemies are doing over here.   Don't look, or even know about the awful things we or our friends do.

If you want to see this dynamic in action, look at the Seattle newspaper, The Stranger, and the political and advice columns by Dan Savage.  

The main principle for anti-imperialists is you criticize the actions of your own government first.  This is anti-imperialism 101.   All our domestic media, left, right and centre, will be happy to criticize the actions of our enemies.  

For Canadian anti-imperialists, the US government is a close second, because a) we support it ideologically and materially in its goals, and we benefit from it's Empire, and b) we have some ability to influence it, through our proximity to american citizens.

I understand many people here may not agree with the above logic.   But please accept that it is a quite different thing from "supporting Putin" or not caring about gay rights.

 

 

voice of the damned

Mobo, I haven't been a regular reader of Dan Savage for over a decade, but from what I remember, he certainly criticizes his own country when it comes to GLBQT issues(Rick Santorum can tell you about that). And a google on "Dan Savage Saudi Arabia" turned up the link below, where he rips into Saudi religious-laws pretty "savagely", in discussing a previous article in which he also ripped into Saudi religious-laws.

http://tinyurl.com/jrxtmx6

Now, granted, he doesn't mention, at least in that article, Saudi Arabia's status as a western ally, and I suppose it might be the case that he goes after Russia more often than he goes after the KSA(again, not a regular leader). But still, if he were beholden to some media party-line against criticizing the west and its allies, I doubt he'd be writing stuff like what you see in that column. Quote...

"Is Canada morally superior to Saudi Arabia? You bet. It's also morally superior to the United States Of America."

Not exactly "Rah Rah USA Hoo Rah!" stuff.

 

 

 

6079_Smith_W

Mobo2000 wrote:

The main principle for anti-imperialists is you criticize the actions of your own government first.  This is anti-imperialism 101.   All our domestic media, left, right and centre, will be happy to criticize the actions of our enemies. 

I understand many people here may not agree with the above logic.   But please accept that it is a quite different thing from "supporting Putin" or not caring about gay rights.

You mean that Pew Research was right in not mentioning Russia's anti-LGBT laws, and Bagkitty was making an error in judgment and priorities to bring it up.

Would I be mistaken in interpreting your comments that way?

 

 

Mobo2000

VOTD - - read his stuff on the election/Trump/Russian hacking, that is what I was refering to.   I used to be a real fan of his, but he went completely off the rails, IMO.

Mobo2000

Smoth:   I don't know what you mean.   Pew Research is hardly an anti-imperialist organization, my comments were about the responsibilities of anti-imperialists.   It would not be good polling/research practice to bring up specific, controversial issues while doing research about general attitudes towards a country.  

I thought Bagkitty (great name btw) was making a general comment that perhaps the sentiment would be more unfavourable to Russia if Pew highlighted the gay propaganda law.  

Regarding an "error in judgement and priorities", no, I think everyone is entitled to their own priorities.  I ask for the same consideration, though.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

Mobo2000 wrote:

The main principle for anti-imperialists is you criticize the actions of your own government first.  This is anti-imperialism 101.   All our domestic media, left, right and centre, will be happy to criticize the actions of our enemies.  

For Canadian anti-imperialists, the US government is a close second, because a) we support it ideologically and materially in its goals, and we benefit from it's Empire, and b) we have some ability to influence it, through our proximity to american citizens.

Chomsky agrees with you on this. In fact, this is the cudgel that many of his critics use to attack him. Because he spends most of his time criticising U.S. misdeeds, he must be condoning those of U.S. rivals. It's a dishonest attack in that case, and also here on babble.

Mobo2000

Yes, Chomsky is my hero.   He was my introduction to anti-imperialism, along with may other people here I imagine.  

Minor quibble - I don't think people who disagree are necessarily dishonest, even among Chomsky's critics.   And I don't think anyone at babble is being dishonest here, but I do think there is somewhat of a failure to communicate. 

ETA: here is Chomksy's essay On the Responsibilities of Intellectuals.   I think it is brilliant and covers many of these issues well.

https://chomsky.info/19670223/

 

6079_Smith_W

Mobo2000 wrote:

I thought Bagkitty (great name btw) was making a general comment that perhaps the sentiment would be more unfavourable to Russia if Pew highlighted the gay propaganda law.  

Regarding an "error in judgement and priorities", no, I think everyone is entitled to their own priorities.  I ask for the same consideration, though.

But you just said that there should be priorities in terms of who we criticize. If you think it is a personal issue why did you even bring it up?

And no one said you aren't entitled to your opinion, or that you can't express it.

NDPP

'Anti-Russian Witch Hunt in US Becoming 'Surreal'

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/373609-russia-hysteria-interrupted-broadcasti...

"If you build up an atmosphere similar to the McCarthy era, you get people reacting in the way they did, said former British MP George Galloway, commenting on the Twitter conspiracy craze after an RT broadcast interrupted C-SPAN. 

'There is no end to the genius, to the reach of President Putin. He was obviously sitting there in the Kremlin deciding to invade the time of C-SPAN, which not very many people in the US watch. What's next? The Disney Channel?

It is becoming surreal this whole anti-Russia witch hunt..."

Mobo2000

Smith:  You are really confusing me. 

The "criticize your own government first" principle is for people, like me, who primarily identify as anti-imperialist.      I was, imperfectly it seems, trying to get across where I am coming from, and making a distinction in how I (and generally, anti-imperialists) make our priorities in a way that addresses the confusion I see on this thread about babblers "supporting Putin", and to explain why I am not  eager to echo anti-russian criticism right now.

Do you agree in general that american liberal media does use progressive issues and causes to "dogwhistle" progressives in support of US foreign policy goals?   And if so, does that have any significance or consequence for progressives?

 

josh

'Anti-Russian Witch Hunt in US Becoming 'Surreal' 

 

Unaware that anyone is looking for any Russian witches.  Unless possibly Trump.

Unionist

Mobo2000 wrote:
 The Black Agenda report is talking about how DNC/mainstream liberal media "dogwhistles" the left in support of imperial projects.

Exactly - and they do it very professionally and too often successfully.

Quote:
Why did news of the gay propaganda laws dominate american media a few years ago?   I don't believe it was out of any honest concern for gay russians.   Rather it coincided with a long running propaganda campaign to villify Russia and drum up support for future American actions.   If it were motivated by sincere concern for gay rights, then why has there not been a similar media campaign around Saudi Arabia or any number of countries where the US and Canada does business?

Exactly. I remember a union convention, long ago (1980 - yeah, that long), where there was a motion from the floor, but clearly sponsored by some of the leadership, to boycott the Moscow Olympics in protest of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. Great progressive cause, of course, but since it was Jimmy Carter's idea, it seemed a tad selective. So I got up, fully supported the motivation behind the motion, and in exactly the same spirit, moved an amendment to add all U.S. sports events to the boycott. When the dust settled, the original motion was withdrawn.

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Progressive people are often characterized by their empathy.  By concern for equality, human rights.   We are about empathy.   Mainstream liberal media will engage and stir up progressive people's natural empathy in selective ways to further their own goals -  Look at the awful things are enemies are doing over here.   Don't look, or even know about the awful things we or our friends do.

Just quoting that excerpt so that folks have another opportunity to read and digest this truth.

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The main principle for anti-imperialists is you criticize the actions of your own government first.  This is anti-imperialism 101.   All our domestic media, left, right and centre, will be happy to criticize the actions of our enemies.  

It's truly a shame that so much criticism in these threads of Canadian and U.S. policy is dominated by a very few who want to gloss over the crimes of Russian imperialism - and by others who want to whitewash the crimes of our own imperialists by using them (the glossers) as a convenient debating foil.

Thanks for being here, Mobo!

6079_Smith_W

So to reel this back a bit, Pew was right in leaving it out, and bagkitty was out of line? 

Or is it a matter of personal opinion?

Or babble should shut down its international news section altogether, or rename it the anti-western imperialist section just so people get it straight?

I suppose a bit of gum-chewing and perambulating multitasking exercises would be too much to expect of people. 

Besides, it might make them ask questions about the not gay Olympics, and we wouldn't want that.

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