The New Russophobia 2

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voice of the damned

Mobo2000 wrote:

 

Do you agree in general that american liberal media does use progressive issues and causes to "dogwhistle" progressives in support of US foreign policy goals?   And if so, does that have any significance or consequence for progressives?

My attitude is this: If a legitimate gay-rights group puts in front of me a petition criticizing the treatment of gays and lesbians in some foreign country, and I think the petition is based on real facts, I'm gonna sign it. And I don't really care if the country in question is one that's on the shitlist of the US and its allies, and drawing attention to the injustice runs the risk of scoring a propaganda victory for imperialism. Depending on its mandate,  a legitimate gay rights group has an obligation to help gays in whatever country they happen to be in, and I don't think the group should put a clause in their constitution saying "But if the government that's persecuting you is also being demonized by western imperialists, than you're just Shit Out Of Luck."

And, really, if the US and its allies are using your lousy record on gay-rights as an excuse to demonize you, well, you can always knock that weapon out of their arsenal by STOPPING THE PERSECUTION OF GAYS. Cuba did that a decade or so ago, and it doesn't seem to have led to Bay Of Pigs II.

And for the record, my current visa forbids me from getting involved in political activity, and fastidious i-dotter and t-crosser that I am, I include the signing of petitions in that. The last time I signed anything to do with gay-rights was in Canada, a petition criticizing Iran for the execution of those two gay guys a few years so ago. Obviously, Iran IS one of the countries in the USA's gunsights, but the petition was by the Raelians, who I kind of doubt are a CIA front.

6079_Smith_W

I suppose there is another option. If we put a boilerplate disclaimer at the beginning of every post acknowledging that the U.S. is the greatest evil on the planet then would we just be able to have a reasonable discussion without all this concern trolling?

bagkitty bagkitty's picture

More fun in the Duma.

JMG wrote:

A bill decriminalizing domestic violence has passed its first reading in Russia’s State Duma. Some 368 lawmakers voted in favor of the law, with just one deputy voting against the plans. One other deputy abstained from the vote.

The bill would remove the charge of “battery within families” from Russia’s Criminal Code, downgrading it to an administrative offense. Criminal charges would only be brought against offenders if familial beatings took place more than once a year. The bill was spearheaded by ultra-conservative Russian lawmaker Yelena Mizulina, who is already notorious for successfully lobbying Russia’s controversial “gay propaganda” law.

Mizulina first took up the fight in July 2016, when President Vladimir Putin decriminalized other forms of assault and battery that did not cause actual bodily harm. Mizulina has called the decision to define battery within families as a more serious offense – alongside hooliganism and hate assaults — as “anti-family, and claims that the law undermines parents’ “right” to beat their children.

Of course there is more opposition to this law than in the case of the gay propaganda law... not only was there an abstention, one member actually voted against it! Of course it was only first reading, perhaps improvements can be made to it so the whole Duma can get behind it.

Mobo2000

Unionist -- Thanks!

VOTD -- from your example, to me the ideal response would be for the gay rights groups to do both:  call for resistance to the homophobic laws (and give support to domestic groups best able to bring about change), and also call out Western powers on their aggression, and make it clear that change in Russia should not come about through outside force. 

In practical terms, also, international pressure about domestic policies frequently strengthens the existing governement, as the population rallies around the government because it is perceived as being attacked by outsiders.   It's a tricky problem.  

ETA:  Smith, your suggestions seem a little overboard to me.   I would be happy if everyone said whatever they wanted about Russia, Trump, american media, but refrained from calling other babblers with different opinions apologists, Putin lovers, concern trolls or brainwashed supporters of Empire.

voice of the damned

Mobo2000 wrote:

 

VOTD -- from your example, to me the ideal response would be for the gay rights groups to do both:  call for resistance to the homophobic laws (and give support to domestic groups best able to bring about change), and also call out Western powers on their aggression, and make it clear that change in Russia should not come about through outside force. 

In practical terms, also, international pressure about domestic policies frequently strengthens the existing governement, as the population rallies around the government because it is perceived as being attacked by outsiders.   It's a tricky problem.  

 

Mostly agree. I'm undecided if a gay-rights group needs to take an official stand on imperialism(arguably not part of their mandate, any more than an anti-imperialist group needs to take a stand on gay rights everywhere), but certainly, if the given political climate poses the risk that a campaign for persecuted gays will be hijacked by those pushing a warmonegering agenda, the activists can make it clear that they're not on board for that.

And I certainly get what you're saying about international pressure hardening attitides within the target country. But it can be interesting how these things play out. The US embassy helped sponsor a gay-rights festival in Korea some time last year. The people protesting against Uncle Sam in this case were mostly right-wing Christians, the kind of people who, more often than not, would normally be the biggest cheerleaders for US involvement on the Korean penisula.

http://tinyurl.com/javb5ha

(EDIT: Re-reading the article, it was a gay-rights FORUM, not a festival, that the embassy sponsored. I think I was mixing that story up with one from another country.)

 

 

 

 

 

6079_Smith_W

Mobo2000 wrote:
.  

ETA:  Smith, your suggestions seem a little overboard to me.   I would be happy if everyone said whatever they wanted about Russia, Trump, american media, but refrained from calling other babblers with different opinions apologists, Putin lovers, concern trolls or brainwashed supporters of Empire.

Hey Mobo, I am not the one who stepped in when another person actually said what they wanted about Russia, and brought up the issue of what our priorities should be. 

Initially I asked for clarification, but given that there has been a bit more weighing in on the issue I am going to call it what it is. And no, I am not just singling you out.

This notion that we should criticize our own camp first rather than looking at issues? I don't buy that for a second.

I find it even more laughable that anyone would claim that people here follow that rule, when it comes right down to it. Of all the places I frequent on the internet, this is one of the most nakedly partisan.

 

 

Mobo2000

Thanks for the reasonable discussion, VOTD.   Appeciated your Korean example and the article as well.

ETA:  Smith, I would love to have some kind of conversation with you about this.   But sometimes you are too meta for me.   I honestly don't know what you mean above.  

 

 

bagkitty bagkitty's picture

Mobo2000 wrote:

[...]

Why did news of the gay propaganda laws dominate american media a few years ago?   I don't believe it was out of any honest concern for gay russians.  Rather it coincided with a long running propaganda campaign to villify Russia and drum up support for future American actions.   If it were motivated by sincere concern for gay rights, then why has there not been a similar media campaign around Saudi Arabia or any number of countries where the US and Canada does business?

[...]

[emphais added, d'uh]

 

But, at the same time, I would be lying if I said I didn't see it coming. Of course I would probably be offended if I actually believed that the blip on the radar that was the sum total of coverage in the western media on state-nurtured homophobia in Russia (or Iran, or Saudi Arabia, or Poland, or North Carolina, or Alabama, or Montana) could ever be characterized as a "dominating" theme. (Good thing that the writer of that particular howler didn't mention Uganda - you know, the single case where there was actually extensive coverage in the western media.) I guess I should be paying closer attention to the evolution of babble - it is becoming increasingly clear that the hierarchy of concern is changing and the parading of anti-Imperialist credentials now takes pride of place over all those "lesser" matters. So when is the show trial for those guilty of pink-washing their Russophobia (or Islamophobia, or Christophobia or Judeophobia)?

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Actually, no.  If you feel that you need to "ignore British and US imperialism to focus on the evil Russians" then that's a multitasking fail.

But I don't feel that way, do you, or are you just beating the shit out of strawmen again?  Go ahead attack that person he's not me.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

More foaming Russophobia. This time in politicizing sport.

But the response was impressive.

Russian U18 women’s hockey team silences booing stands by embracing & singing anthem

Quote:
After winning a quarterfinal at the Women’s World Junior Championship in the Czech Republic against the host team (2:0), the Russian female under-18 team found themselves in a hostile situation, as the stands booed and whistled over the Russian anthem.

However, the girls took the situation in hand to silence the outraged home crowd.

The whole team threw their sticks on the ice and embraced. Swaying from side to side, they started singing to the tune of the national anthem.

That's how the good guys do it. 

Too phucking bad, Russophobes. You're losing. And badly.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
Because he spends most of his time criticising U.S. misdeeds, he must be condoning those of U.S. rivals. It's a dishonest attack in that case, and also here on babble.

Why isn't is just as dishonest to suggest that if someone criticizes other countries' misdeeds, you must be supporting U.S. imperialism?

Quote:
But I don't feel that way, do you, or are you just beating the shit out of strawmen again?

No.  I was just suggesting that with our big human brains, it's never necessary to ignore everything else in order to not ignore one thing.  We don't have to choose just one country's imperialism to oppose -- we can oppose them all.

There's an unfortunate tendency here at babble to simplistically equate, say, criticism of Cuba's human rights record with unquestioning support for the U.S. ... speaking of straw men.  That's really all that argument is, too.

Edzell Edzell's picture

Mobo2000 wrote:
The main principle for anti-imperialists is you criticize the actions of your own government first.  This is anti-imperialism 101.   All our domestic media, left, right and centre, will be happy to criticize the actions of our enemies.

Mobo, I thought everyone was welcome to post here within the (very liberal) rules. I have no wish to have my thought processes, or my posts on the forum, judged on whether I'm sufficiently - or at all - anti-imperialist by anyone's definition thereof.

I haven't been here very long but if I'm only welcome as someone's idea of an anti-imperialist, I'll be off. I don't favor discussions you can only be respected in if you hold a certain narrow view. I once attended a meeting of people advertising themselves as "Free Thinkers" but haven't returned. They spent half thier time laughingly ridiculing - almost vilifying - all non atheists. I'm atheist myself but I found their behavior fairly disgusting and their thinking anything but free. Hope the discussions here are not just for "preaching to the indoctrinated."

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

We've had plenty of debate here, long before you arrived, about the merits of having some kind of anti-imperialist perspective as a requirement here, just as we DO have a requirement of avoiding racist, sexist, homophobic, etc., tirades.

You will get called on the latter. Try it and see.

Anyway, I don't think we came to any conclusion on anti-imperialism. Too bad as far as I'm concerned. But it is a rather high "bar" for a country like Canada. Not, I think, for most of the rest of the world.

edited to add:

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bagkitty bagkitty's picture

One of the major problems I have always had with "sports" in general, and team sports in particular, is the irrational clannish affiliation with one team as opposed to any other team playing the same game. Hypothetically speaking, if I were to observe that a particular team (let's say the Habs) perform in a superior fashion to another team (let's say the Leafs), does this make me Leafaphobic or a Habophile? If I resided in the Center of the Universe, yet was seen on the street in a red jersey, would that make me a self-hating Torontonian? Are these phobias and philias particularly praiseworthy or damnable? Is it wrong for me to be perplexed that discussion about international affairs here on babble is increasingly taking place in the language of "sports"?

sherpa-finn

I rarely agree 100% with Kevin Dooley, but last year he wrote an interesting blog / reflection on "The Limits of Chomsky’s Anti-Imperialism" that explores some of the critiques of the principle being discussed above, - ie, that "you criticize the actions of your own government first".

"There are a few objections I have to this kind of framing, but the most central one is the idea that imperial violence forced by ruling class interests are really the collective crimes of the America people. Imposing this kind of guilt on the classes that have nothing to do with designing or implementing imperial policy functions in a similar way as his lesser-evil advocacy. In the case of Trump, Chomsky is isolating a figure from his long-held position within the confines of the ruling class to warn of the unique danger he poses, and in the case of war guilt, he’s doing the opposite by merging all of the classes together in order to share the burden of responsibility for the empire’s shameful legacy of global destruction, plunder and immiseration.

This use of “we” functions as a rebuke of internationalism as I’ve always understood the term. Since Americans ostensibly live in some kind of democracy, with a state in some way accountable to the popular will, then “we” is not meant to represent the global masses enduring life under capitalism. Instead, it’s used as a national identification that removes class barriers in effect linking ordinary people with the capitalists who rule them. The erasure of the clear differences in political, social and economic status within a society does a lot of damage to people’s ability to see how the interests of the ruling class are necessarily in conflict with their own class interests. It also makes it difficult to see how people all over the world are linked in a common struggle against capitalism and all those dedicated to its survival."

(My emphasis added.)

https://kevindooleyirl.wordpress.com/2016/03/28/the-limits-of-chomskys-a...

Edzell Edzell's picture

ikosmos:

Quote:
We welcome your comments at rabble.ca

That's what I assumed. Thank you.

Quote:
To maintain a respectful dialogue, we've posted the guidelines of our comment policy below.

Stay focused. All viewpoints are welcome,....

  • Be respectful. Personal attacks, excess profanity, oppressive and aggressive behaviour are prohibited. Instigating arguments in a disrespectful way is also prohibited.
  • Tell the truth. Please avoid spreading misleading or false information.
  • No spam. Repeated posting of identical or very similar content is prohibited, as is aggressively promoting or linking to services or products.
  • Copyright. Please do not publish full-length articles from other publications and websites -- linking is preferable.

These are no more than I would expect from any forum I want to join.

Quote:
(ikosmos)Try it and see (racism, sexism etc)

I'm insulted by this implication in contrast to the spirit of the above guidelines: But I forgive you.

Unionist

Edzell wrote:

Mobo2000 wrote:
The main principle for anti-imperialists is you criticize the actions of your own government first.  This is anti-imperialism 101.   All our domestic media, left, right and centre, will be happy to criticize the actions of our enemies.

Mobo, I thought everyone was welcome to post here within the (very liberal) rules. I have no wish to have my thought processes, or my posts on the forum, judged on whether I'm sufficiently - or at all - anti-imperialist by anyone's definition thereof.

Mobo has been here less time than you. And I struggled to see where Mobo said you weren't welcome to post here. One thing I deeply dislike is the construction of straw men, especially when used to take shots at fellow babblers. So please, do me a favour, and stop it. If you don't agree with what someone says, express your disagreement. But don't weep about not being allowed to post here when it's perfectly obvious that your very thoughtful posts to date are welcome and the subject of much discussion.

Quote:
I haven't been here very long but if I'm only welcome as someone's idea of an anti-imperialist, I'll be off. I don't favor discussions you can only be respected in if you hold a certain narrow view. I once attended a meeting of people advertising themselves as "Free Thinkers" but haven't returned. They spent half thier time laughingly ridiculing - almost vilifying - all non atheists. I'm atheist myself but I found their behavior fairly disgusting and their thinking anything but free. Hope the discussions here are not just for "preaching to the indoctrinated."

I'm sorry about your experience with the "Free Thinkers". But if you think it over, you'll hopefully realize that babble is not a meeting of people advertising ourselves as anything. We have very different opinions (didn't start with your arrival) and we continue to debate and discuss. Your comparison of this community to "the indoctrinated" is a bit hasty - but certainly, it is erroneous. You were obviously the victim of some discussion you didn't like among the "Free Thinkers". I hope you don't see yourself as a victim here. Because that's the way your post, taken as a whole, reads.

We will, from time to time, drop our differences and unite to laughingly ridicule Kellie Leitch and the like. I hope you don't find that "fairly disgusting" or that our thinking is "anything but free". Because we won't change those kinds of laugh fests just to make someone more comfortable about sticking around here. Not as long as my keyboard functions, at least.

So, glad you're here, deal with people's viewpoints, and if you find a post too infuriating to reply to - consider ignoring it. Meanwhile, please stick around, your contributions are welcome and valued.

 

 

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

I find that on babble we have many Canadians that have a style of posting like Gordie Howe going into a corner. Elbows up with an eye on the puck.

I believe that to be able to call oneself anti-imperialist in Canada is to oppose our involvement in NATO and to have our government reign in our corporations that are exploiting people in places like Latin America and Africa. I oppose the US and NATO the most because those murderous assholes claim to kill in my name. Russians, Chinese, Cubans, Iranians, Syrians, none of them claim to be exceptional and to have a GOD given right to rule the world. So I reserve my efforts for opposing the imperial order that currently rules the world partially with the support of my tax dollars. 

I loath the American oligarchy the most because of its Exceptionalism doctrine. Even as a citizen of a democracy in the free world I have to accept the fact that America is exceptional and the POTUS whether he is a buffoon or a garden variety war criminal is entitled to rule the world.  In the meantime MSM continues on with look over there at Russia there's nothing to see here, only exceptionalism.

Unionist

Oh by the way, Edzell, you totally misinterpreted ikosmos "try it and see" comment. He has long maintained that failure to follow anti-imperialist policy often gets a pass here, while the same is not true for racist, sexist, and other posts. He wasn't talking about you. He wasn't seriously suggesting that you should make such a post.

In fact, for your information, the anti-imperialist section of babble's policy is the newest part, and it was the subject of some controversy. Whether I agree with ikosmos's assessment or not (and I think there's a grain of truth, but also that it's understandable why there should be), it has certainly proven to be less clear cut than some of the other stands around which we all unite. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

6079_Smith_W

Unionist wrote:

In fact, for your information, the anti-imperialist section of babble's policy is the newest part, and it was the subject of some controversy. Whether I agree with ikosmos's assessment or not (and I think there's a grain of truth, but also that it's understandable why there should be), it has certainly proven to be less clear cut than some of the other stands around which we all unite. That's not necessarily a bad thing.

Not a bad thing at all. Nobody here has a monopoly in that department, though I am sure we agree some think they do, at least about what they think doesn't belong here.

We have had one or two people set straight on those kinds of presumptions too. That is part of the reason moderators are also a good thing.

 

 

Edzell Edzell's picture

Unionist; thanks for the kind as well as the maybe not-so-kind words. The part of Mobo's post that prompted mine was as follows:

Quote:
"The main principle for anti-imperialists is you criticize the actions of your own government first.  This is anti-imperialism 101.   All our domestic media, left, right and centre, will be happy to criticize the actions of our enemies. 

For Canadian anti-imperialists, the US government is a close second, because a) we support it ideologically and materially in its goals, and we benefit from it's Empire, and b) we have some ability to influence it, through our proximity to american citizens."

I took this - no doubt wrongly - to suggest that only those who fit some definition of "anti-imperialist" are welcome. (I do have an antipathy to being called any sort of "ist".) I should also mention that's not the only place I think I've seen it implied that rabble/babble was "for" anti-imperialists. But anyway I'll back off and concede that maybe that's not what Mobo was meaning (sorry, Mobo.)

The thing about the Free Thinkers was maybe not too appropriate in that the opinions were more rigid & forcefully expressed than most of what I see here. Some of them were nasty to the point of being hateful, and I just couldn't get past the irony that they called themselves Free Thinkers. I fnd that laughable, yes, now that I've escaped them but I doubt they would laugh with me..

Anyway enough of all that. I do have a habit of criticising what I see as invalid or over-the-top rhetorical observations just on principle, in the interest of promoting factual discussion and regardless which "side" of a dispute I would support. I daresay it will get me into trouble more than once, in more ways than one.

I do enjoy this forum; on balance it's the friendliest, most civil one I've found with the exeption of a gardening one where the "digs" are so subtle you can't respond in case they really are unintentional.

Thanks to all here.

Unionist

Gardeners are not permitted here. We have to draw the line somewhere.

Edzell Edzell's picture

Unionist wrote:
Gardeners are not permitted here. We have to draw the line somewhere.

Should have stayed in the (propagation) closet!

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

We're simply at a lower level that the rest of the world. How Do we honour those who rise above the imperialism of their own country?

It's an interesting question. I must admit that I, quite often in fact, have no patience for those who "fail" to rise above their situation. And maybe I'm just so wrong here.

Maybe.

Their condition of their condition - to quote The Dude. I expect more. Nay. i demand it.

That's a reflection of my own experience. I know we can do better, we should do better, we should not let the Empire rule our thoughts.

Far too many babblers do that. It's such an ignomonious shame. There are no words.

6079_Smith_W

ikosmos wrote:

There are no words.

Do you promise? I wish there were no words.

Unfortunately we keep getting these finger-wagging, righteous diatribes about how disappointing we are.

Beyond the fact that it is annoying, I don't care. You don't run the show here any more than I do, so it doesn't actually mean anything.

 

 

 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

lol. You're been a mouthpiece for the Empire and you want to trivialize those who challenge you.

 

Good luck with that. lol.

sherpa-finn

LOL right back at you. Whether you realise it or not, you come across like one of those classically repressed and bullying schoolmasters constantly haranguing his classroom of skeptical, insubordinate and hugely unappreciative schoolchildren.

Roger Waters pretty well captured your style and ethos here - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5ApYxkU-U

As always, the children see right through the charade and the hypocrisy.

"Hey! Teachers! Leave them kids alone,
All in all you're just another brick in the wall."

NDPP

"Is it not somewhat concerning how many Russia media stories have had to be corrected and/or retracted - always in the same direction? "

https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/819895812939534336

 

 

josh

NDPP wrote:

"Is it not somewhat concerning how many Russia media stories have had to be corrected and/or retracted - always in the same direction? "

https://twitter.com/ggreenwald/status/819895812939534336

 

 

Not really. Their hacking of the DNC and dissemination of the hacked information has been established to my satisfaction. They don't rely deny it, but issue non-denial denials and mockery. The Trump thing is not as clearcut at this point, including contacts between the Trump campaign and the Russians, but I believe will be established in time.

6079_Smith_W

You know, from they way that is written it sounds like he's talking about RT. Except that they never retract anything.

But it is not clear what he is talking about in the first place. Who has retracted what? Comey and his accusation? Trump and most of his platform?

 

Unionist

6079_Smith_W wrote:

You know, from they way that is written it sounds like he's talking about RT. Except that they never retract anything.

But it is not clear what he is talking about in the first place. Who has retracted what? Comey and his accusation? Trump and most of his platform?

 

Click on the link, then click on the various images attached to his tweet. As you might expect, they are both retracted allegations about Russian hacking - one about C-SPAN, the other about the U.S. electric grid (a Burlington Electric computer was indeed allegedly hacked, but the retraction said it wasn't attached to the grid).

6079_Smith_W

Ah, thanks U. Only the top tweet came up for me initially. The Russians must be hacking my cell phone.

(edit)

Though I still don't see the links. I see the pics of parts of the newspaper pieces, but not the pieces themselves. I presume they are downthread.

So I guess a couple of people who watched that old SCTV episode jumped the gun on the C-SPAN story. That's one.

Edzell Edzell's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:
You know, from they way that is written it sounds like he's talking about RT. Except that they never retract anything.But it is not clear what he is talking about in the first place. Who has retracted what? Comey and his accusation? Trump and most of his platform?

It's not clear to me from this, who and what youi're talking about.

I wish people would quote the relevant thing they comment on. (But just enough to clarify the context, not long internested back-&-forth stringd of thread.)

6079_Smith_W

Go back and look for the previous use of the word "retract".

You know, I do sympathize, and if I have made a comment and a few have piled up behind me I usually edit to point out who I am talking to.

In this case is should be pretty clear, though. If not from what came before, certainly from what followed.

 

Edzell Edzell's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:
Go back and look for the previous use of the word "retract". You know, I do sympathize, and if I have made a comment and a few have piled up behind me I usually edit to point out who I am talking to. In this case is should be pretty clear, though. If not from what came before, certainly from what followed.

Well, it's not clear to me yet and I'm too lazy to pursue it further - but thanks for the sympathy :).

6079_Smith_W

I was referring to the two comments before mine. NDPP's one at 578 is where you will find the link.

mmphosis
ikosmos ikosmos's picture

That's a great piece by Chris Hedges. I've posted a longer quote from the article on the Trump Admin. thread -  but the directly relevant bit is here:

Chris Hedges wrote:
...1. The primary purpose of the declassified report, which offers no evidence to support its assertions that Russia hacked the U.S. presidential election campaign, is to discredit Donald Trump.... [by depicting him as Putin's useful idiot].

2. The second task of the report is to bolster the McCarthyist smear campaign against independent media, including Truthdig, as witting or unwitting agents of the Russian government. The demise of the English programming of Al-Jazeera and TeleSur, along with the collapse of the nation’s public broadcasting, designed to give a voice to those not beholden to corporate or party interests, leaves RT America and Amy Goodman’s Democracy Now! as the only two electronic outlets with a national reach that are willing to give a platform to critics of corporate power and imperialism such as Julian Assange, Edward Snowden, Chelsea Manning, Ralph Nader, Medea Benjamin, Cornel West, Kshama Sawant, myself and others....

The barely contained rage of Director of National Intelligence James Clapper at the recent Senate Armed Services Committee hearing on foreign cyber threats was visible when he spat out that RT was “promoting a particular point of view, disparaging our system, our alleged hypocrisy about human rights, et cetera.” His anger was a glimpse into how the establishment seethes with hatred for dissidents. [that's you - babblers]  Clapper has lied in the past. He perjured himself in March 2013 when, three months before the revelations of wholesale state surveillance leaked by Snowden, he assured Congress that the National Security Agency was not collecting “any type of data” on the American public. After the corporate state shuts down RT, it will go after Democracy Now! and the handful of progressive sites, including this one, that give these dissidents space. The goal is censorship.

3. The third task of the report is to justify the expansion of [NATO] ... New NATO members must buy Western arms that can be integrated into the NATO arsenal. These sales, which are bleeding the strained budgets of countries such as Poland, are predicated on potential hostilities with Russia. If Russia is not a threat, the arms sales plummet. War is a racket.


Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
"The main principle for anti-imperialists is you criticize the actions of your own government first.  This is anti-imperialism 101.   All our domestic media, left, right and centre, will be happy to criticize the actions of our enemies.

It would be a good thing, IMHO, if the second principle for anti-imperialists were to turn the lens of attention on whichever government they support.  If that government has clean hands then there's nothing to lose, yes?

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Speaking of virulent warmongers and noisy proponents of foaming hatred, Justin Trudeau has recently sacked the very experienced Stephan Dion and replaced him in the position of Minister of Foreign Affairs with certified Russophobe Chrystia Freeland.

Freeland's Russophobic 'credentials' are excellent. She's a persona non grata in Russia. That will surely "help" communication between the two countries and go a long way to clearing up misconceptions. lol.

However, Russia expert, former analyst for the Canadian military and councellor at the Canadian Embassy in Moscow, Patrick Armstrong (whom I've quoted many times) says that Freeland will be "talking to herself" on these matters.

As Ukraine slowly disappears from the MSM in Canada, and that brutal regime wallows in self-generated hate, there will be less and less interest in that portfolio in the broader Canadian public. The ethnic cleansing of Russian-speaking Ukrainians failed, Crimea is happily part of Russia again, the frozen conflicts in Donbass and related areas will inch forward to solutions, just as the bankrupt kleptocracy in Kiev will continue its downward spiral. Europe will slam the door shut, just as with Turkey, and Ukrainians will be left, once again, holding the bag.

Quote:
"I think, probably, the Europeans will be very happy to leave it [the Ukrainian issue] behind. Certainly, the EU has not been promising Ukraine anything. All indications show that Europeans would love to drop the sanctions. So Chrystia Freeland, out there, talking about the nation's dream of independence and the Putin nightmare will be talking to herself," Armstrong stated.

Read more: https://sputniknews.com/politics/201701151049621434-freeland-talking-to-herself/

But there are other views as well...

Quote:
Historian Michael J. Carley believes that the appointment of Chrystia Freeland is a "catastrophe" for Canada's relations with Russia.

"This appointment is a catastrophe for Canadian-Russian relations. I cannot understand why the government would have selected her to be minister for external affairs with her stated position with respect to Russia, Crimea, and Ukraine. She's a Russophobe, a hater of Putin, of Russian politics," Carley told Sputnik.

So, while the masters in Washington switch over to a new regime, seemingly bent on (the HORROR!) improving relations with the Russian Federation, the Canadian chihuahua shrilly barks away, its very Minister unable to travel to Russia, living in the past, and falling behind the times once again.

bow. wow.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

[You know you can shrink images to a more manageable size, right? Of course, if your intention was to make reading this thread more difficult for some, then ...]

The new Canadian Minister of Foreign Affairs is banned from Russia. This may be a first in international politics. Way to go, Canada!

I guess the new Minister can make noises from the comfort of her back porch on how Russia should govern itself. I'm sure there will be an enormous audience ... of crickets.

bekayne

ikosmos wrote:

So, while the masters in Washington switch over to a new regime, seemingly bent on (the HORROR!) improving relations with the Russian Federation, the Canadian chihuahua shrilly barks away, its very Minister unable to travel to Russia, living in the past, and falling behind the times once again.

bow. wow.

You mean Canada won't be able to join in on all the fun?

 

 

bekayne

ikosmos wrote:

[You know you can shrink images to a more manageable size, right? Of course, if your intention was to make reading this thread more difficult for some, then ...]

Thanks for the info

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

clap clap

bekayne

ikosmos wrote:

The new Canadian Minister of Foreign Affairs is banned from Russia. This may be a first in international politics. Way to go, Canada!

http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/01/09/politician-blacklisted-...

The nominee has always been a harsh critic of Moscow. He was an ardent supporter of sanctions introduced by the Obama administration over Crimea. Coats was among several lawmakers banned from traveling to Russia.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

The article goes on to credit Coates with being a realist. This is very unlike Freeland, who, once the political winds change direction, will find herself making speeches to crickets and Ukrainian fascists.

Michael Moriarity Michael Moriarity's picture

ikosmos, I think you are giving Freeland more credit for being principled than she deserves. She is totally a creature of the billionaire culture, which she served loyally as a propagandist for her entire career until she became a star Liberal candidate. If they change their views on anything, she will tailor hers to match.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

The difference is that someone like Coats, representing the Empire, leads, while someone like Freeland follows, as you say, the billionaire culture. She's going to be very much out of sync, especially with the Empire under President Trump, and maybe soon.

eta: I have to confess that I haven't followed her career. However, just the fact that the PM could appoint such a neophyte, replacing the very experienced S. Dion, carrying such Russophobic baggage as she does, at a time when the US may be going through a substantial change of direction in foreign policy on this very issue, suggests that Trudeau's hitherto highly successful approach of sticking his Liberal finger in the air to see which way the wind blows has failed him.

 

 

 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Saturday Night Live:  because, well, Hitler had some "good points".

SNL wrote:
"Nazi Germany at least had guts to take on Russia".

As Alexey Golden noted, "Of course Nazis did some bad things, but at least they killed about 27 million Soviets, this partly offsets the bad things they were doing. Good laugh."

 

6079_Smith_W

ikosmos wrote:

Saturday Night Live:  because, well, Hitler had some "good points".

SNL wrote:
"Nazi Germany at least had guts to take on Russia".

As Alexey Golden noted, "Of course Nazis did some bad things, but at least they killed about 27 million Soviets, this partly offsets the bad things they were doing. Good laugh."

Tasteless joke; of course it's bad! I bet Joe was pissed about being upstaged like that.

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