The New Russophobia 2

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kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

I am doing my best to stay civil here, so I will just advise you to think before you post.

Thank you kind sir for telling me that my posts are thoughtless. Of course yours are completely thoughtful and you display an unique ability to think that an idiot like me could never approach so I should probably just stop posting my posts that obviously contain no rational thought.

6079_Smith_W

Oh come on.

I'm not the one who sidetracked this conversation with a very serious, but completely baseless personal attack, going as far as to dig through two-year-old unrelated threads to find ammunition. 

(too bad it was a dud)

I'm not the one who said I was to blame if others make those false assumptions and accusations and don't have anything to back it up.

And I am not the one who, when I make an offer of clarification, as requested, make an accusation of "obfuscating".

I am doing my best to stay civil here, so I will just advise you to think before you post.

 

 

 

contrarianna

6079_Smith_W wrote:

....As for the situation in Ukraine, do you remember what was happening in March, with the regular army driving up to rebel territory, handing over their vehicles and arms, and taking the bus back home?I can appreciate that the Ukrainian government is in a difficult position, given that their most important battalions (and remember, Azov is 300 people, 600 at the outside) includes some[sic] fascists. But given that they are under attack, that the these are some of the first groups that could be counted on to fight for their[sic] country, I don't see that they had much choice. It is not as if they haven't laid criminal charges in some cases - against members of Pravy Sektor. After all, it is not a crime to be right wing, just to act on those beliefs in a way that is against the law. And not to excuse Azov, but it is not as if there aren't just as many if not more fascist-leaning idealogues on the other side.

http://rabble.ca/comment/1460494#comment-1460494

6079_Smith_W wrote:

You have a problem with that comment? Surely you don't think people should face criminal charges simply for their political beliefs if they have committed no crime....

I doubt you are foolish enough to believe your own legal absolutism which equate  acceptable actions with "the law", and how it is interpreted, or enforced--as if it was somehow independent of a regime's agenda--however vile.

Whether Germany,  Russia, the US, or pre- or post-coup Ukraine, etc., "the law" is obviously the handmaiden of state policy and varies widely between states and successive regimes. This is obvious to most sentient beings. 

With the atrocity commiting neo-nazi shock-troup militias now officially attached to the Kiev military (as they undeniably now are) and when racist politicians speak of protecting the pure Ukrainian "white race", and against the "subhumans", are part of the Kiev government (which they demonstrably are) they hardly need fear a Kiev instituted "the law".

"The law" in post-coup Ukraine, banned the communist party, and made it a crime to detract from the "Heros of the Ukraine" who assisted in the antisemitic slaughter durring WWII.

https://krytyka.com/en/articles/open-letter-scholars-and-experts-ukraine...

You will find additional legalistic solace from the country that legally blocked torture prosecution of its own government officials:

Quote:
US lifts ban on funding ‘neo-Nazi’ Ukrainian militia
The news that the Azov Battalion is now legally able to receive American aid has enraged the Simon Wiesenthal Center, which last week successfully blocked the battalion from holding a recruitment meeting in Nantes, France...

http://www.jpost.com/Diaspora/US-lifts-ban-on-funding-neo-Nazi-Ukrainian...

So, yes, you are clearly a nazi apologist, ridiculously hiding behind a pathetic canard about "the law".

6079_Smith_W

Oh, hi contrarianna. Got your sticky notes sorted and your barrister's wig on straight? 

Yeah, the law is just a pathetic canard. You didn't answer my question upthread. Do you think people should be arrested their political views, if they have committed no crime?

From that Jerusalem Post article:

Quote:

However, The Nation asserted that the law in question, known as the Leahy Law, only prohibits funding to groups that have “committed a gross violation of human rights,” which would not apply in this case.

See what I mean about the law? Never mind that the article has "neo-Nazi" in scare quotes, and all the references are to them being "called" that by other people (much in the same way you are calling me), if you haven't actually committed a crime, there isn't much they can do about it.

Unlike Oleksandr Muzychko, who Ukraine did try to arrest for attacking and threatening people.

But the fact is there were and are neo-Nazis on both sides of that conflict, like the "people's governor" Paul Gubarev, to name just one high-ranking one. My point was that the government of Ukraine was in a hard place given that that 1,000 strong unit was one of the only groups willing to fight at a time when their regular army was handing its weapons over to the rebels. And they had not broken any laws and were defending their own city, so what would you have the government do?

Well I know what you would have them do, but that was not going to happen, especially considering there were people with the same values across the line. Since then that situation has deteriorated to the point where both sides have committed atrocities and violations of human rights.

And the initial point I made about the new (2014) government of Ukraine having nothing to do with the war memorial (for which you called me a Nazi apologist) had nothing to do with the law. They didn't organize it, and they weren't the government at the time it happened.

Though you neglected to mention that 2015 law didn't just ban communist imagery, it also banned Nazi imagery.

I think banning the party was a bad idea, and hypocritical, considering they recognize the role the UPA played, even though they worked with Nazis. But I can see the reasoning, since when the Soviet Union invaded Ukraine (in the same way they invaded and divided Poland) they too were allies with the Nazis.

(though they aren't the first government to ban parties, Yanukovich also banned blocs from parliamentary election. The direct result of that was the rise of Svoboda)

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/20/ukraine-decommunisation-la...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decommunization_in_Ukraine

 

contrarianna

6079_Smith_W wrote:

 

Yeah, the law is just a pathetic canard. You didn't answer my question upthread. Do you think people should be arrested their political views, if they have committed no crime?

From that Jerusalem Post article:

That red herring hardly cried out for response.

Your attempt to mitigate the nazi militias as matter of "belief" or a "freedom of thought" issue is patently absurd. 

An example of "a matter of belief" is some idiot who goes weak in the knees at mention of a Nazi plan for erraditcating subhumans and has his basement plastered with Nazi paraphenalia.   There is no need to have laws against "thought crimes".

It's obviously a different story when such a person joins a highly armed militia which embodies such ideals and goals, and then is turned loose for a chance to put their plans in action on a population that does not meet their standard of purity.

6079_Smith_W

contrarianna wrote:

It's obviously a different story when such a person joins a highly armed militia which embodies such ideals and goals, and then is turned loose for a chance to put their plans in action on a population that does not meet their standard of purity.

What exactly are you talking about? Not that I support the ideology or actions  of some Azov members. I do not. But surely you know the majority of them are Russian speaking, recruited from Mariupol and Donetsk, and they are a multiethnic unit. While there are some international members, most of them are from eastern Ukraine, and fighting in their own territory. It is their own population.

So how does alleged "standard of purity" factor into this at all?

And you still didn't clarify if you thought they should be arrested for supporting right-wing beliefs.

contrarianna

6079_Smith_W wrote:

contrarianna wrote:

It's obviously a different story when such a person joins a highly armed militia which embodies such ideals and goals, and then is turned loose for a chance to put their plans in action on a population that does not meet their standard of purity.

What exactly are you talking about? Not that I support the ideology or actions  of some Azov members. I do not. But surely you know the majority of them are Russian speaking, recruited from Mariupol and Donetsk, and they are a multiethnic unit. While there are some international members, most of them are from eastern Ukraine, and fighting in their own territory. It is their own population.

So how does alleged "standard of purity" factor into this at all?

And you still didn't clarify if you thought they should be arrested for supporting right-wing beliefs.

That's it? ? Because the Azov (and also the Right Sector for that matter) is laden with Russian-speaking fascists, there is no problem?

A militia's ideology and military agenda is set by it's leadership:

Quote:
[Azov leader Lieutenant Colonel Andriy Biletsky] is also head of an extremist Ukrainian group called the Social National Assembly. “The historic mission of our nation in this critical moment is to lead the White Races of the world in a final crusade for their survival,” he wrote in a recent commentary. “A crusade against the Semite-led Untermenschen.”

 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11025137/Ukrain...

For someone who on other topics waxes sensitve about ethnicity and "hurtful language", you seem strangely indifferent about racism and "hurtful" lethality. 

6079_Smith_W

Well yeah, I think we are clear on the fact some of them are racists and neo-Nazis.

The question I asked was regarding this:

Quote:

It's obviously a different story when such a person joins a highly armed militia which embodies such ideals and goals, and then is turned loose for a chance to put their plans in action on a population that does not meet their standard of purity.

A different story how? At the time they did their main fighting trying to defend their home city. No one turned them loose on anyone. And nothing about their campaign had anything do to with people who didn't "meet their standard of purity".

In the two years since we had that pleasant conversation they have been accused of several incidents of torture and looting; again, like many on both sides of that conflict. None have anything to do with racial attacks or Nazi ideologies, so what do you base your comment on?

What military agenda do you mean?

I mean it is pretty clear you aren't going to give me a straight answer to my question, but do you even know what you are talking about?  Because you seem to be just making it up.

"hurtful lethality"? Sorry to break it to you, but it is a war.

 

NorthReport
ikosmos ikosmos's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:
"hurtful lethality"? Sorry to break it to you, but it is a war.

Yup, war is hell. So please tell us about the Russian "untermenschen" that need to be "cleansed" from Ukraine. [rolleyes]

"Don't pass by! Kill the [Russian] cockroach!"

This is the reality of "free" Ukraine.

6079_Smith_W

Those are potato beetles, ikosmos. Not a gardener, I take it.

The translation is "Don't pass by. Kill it"

Yes, I am aware of how it plays into political (not racial) propaganda regarding those who wear the St. George ribbon. I am also aware of the propaganda about Ukraine not being a real country and that it does not have a real language and culture.

To cut to the chase, how does this tie in with Biletsky's declaration regarding "semite-led untermeschen", and the actions of that battalion? Especially considering they have been defending a nation which until recently had a Jewish prime minister. Has Azov been targetting Jewish people? Torching synagogues? The notion that they might be targetting Russian speakers is kind of absurd since most of them are Russian speakers. And while you might want to talk about discrimination against "Moskals", many of them are Russian nationals.

So sorry. If you want to make a case about some of them having far-right and racist values, you are right. But like a lot of conflicts, if you are looking for bad guys, and hatred, there is no shortage of that on either side of this conflict. That isn't the same as neo-Nazism being part of Azov's military agenda.

Considering some of what has gone down over there, I'm surprised they have been disciplined enough to keep that in check as much as they have. They have done a better job than Canada's former Airborne Regiment.

Timebandit Timebandit's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

It wasn't banned. Two screenings were cancelled - one at the European Parliament because of complaints, and ARTE put it on hold because it was warned it would be liable for broadcasting factual errors.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/10/controversial-film-russia-...

http://www.rferl.org/content/magnitsky-film-on-hold-european-tv-channel-...

It was screened in Washington two weeks ago.

http://www.the-american-interest.com/2016/06/14/russias-big-lie/

And had its pubic world premiere in Norway last weekend, sponsored in part by Norwegian PEN, and the Freedom of Speech Foundation.

http://www.nfi.no/english/news/the-magnitsky-act-behind-the-scenes-will-...

In film and television, filmmakers take out "errors and omissions" insurance, usually a stipulation in a broadcast license.  If someone complains that there are factual errors in the film and the lawyers feel that there is an undue risk that the broadcaster can be held liable in addition to the filmmaker, they will either not air the film or postpone screening until facts can be checked to the satisfaction of the legal advisors and/or insurance carrier.

If the family had some documentation that the filmmaker was in error, this might throw a wrench into things.

 

6079_Smith_W

According to the article I posted, that kind of fancy editing is part of what happened.

But that notwithstanding, I think cancelling the screening was a really bad idea (the broadcast is a bit tricker, obviously) because of course there were going to be accusations of a coverup (or in this case, a ban), and the assumption that the claims are true.

Of course one has to be careful about libel, but it is always best to let stuff like this be seen for what it is.

6079_Smith_W

x

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:
Those are potato beetles, ikosmos. Not a gardener, I take it.

The translation is "Don't pass by. Kill it"

Yes, I am aware of how it plays into political (not racial) propaganda regarding those who wear the St. George ribbon. I am also aware of the propaganda about Ukraine not being a real country and that it does not have a real language and culture.

OK, comparisons can always be made, as yours to the Cdn Airborne, but I see that as mostly a distraction on your part. One crime can always be minimized by comparing it to a worse crime.

But comparing posters which call for killing the "Colorados" (i.e., human insects, literally) versus claims that "Ukraine is not a real country" are apples and oranges, don't you agree?

Maybe killing people, on the one hand, and criticizing the  (fascist dominated) culture, on the other hand, are equal to you, but they're not to normal people. Maybe take a break from this thread. Forever.

6079_Smith_W

What are you talking about, ikosmos. It is a poster.

I'm asking you to back up these claims about "Russian untermenschen", considering that not only are the majority of that battalion Russian-speaking, some of them are Russian nationals.

 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:

What are you talking about, ikosmos. It is a poster.

I'm asking you to back up these claims about "Russian untermenschen", considering that not only are the majority of that battalion Russian-speaking, some of them are Russian nationals.

OK, I'm taking your remarks as AGREEING with the sentiments of the poster, i.e., kill all the Russians.

You should get that looked at.

contrarianna

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Well yeah, I think we are clear on the fact some of them are racists and neo-Nazis.

The question I asked was regarding this:

Quote:

It's obviously a different story when such a person joins a highly armed militia which embodies such ideals and goals, and then is turned loose for a chance to put their plans in action on a population that does not meet their standard of purity.

A different story how? At the time they did their main fighting trying to defend their home city. No one turned them loose on anyone. And nothing about their campaign had anything do to with people who didn't "meet their standard of purity".

In the two years since we had that pleasant conversation they have been accused of several incidents of torture and looting; again, like many on both sides of that conflict. None have anything to do with racial attacks or Nazi ideologies, so what do you base your comment on?

What military agenda do you mean?

I mean it is pretty clear you aren't going to give me a straight answer to my question, but do you even know what you are talking about?  Because you seem to be just making it up.

"hurtful lethality"? Sorry to break it to you, but it is a war.

Your claim of no Nazi motivation in relation to atrocites is absurd on the face of it.

 With the Azov, unlike the right sektor, we don't get a web page openly supporting hate crimes, therefore, you say "prove it". Your perposterous claim that nazi volunteers from inside and outside Ukraine do not behave as Nazis with guns but merely fight for "their country" --even you can't believe it.  

What the Azov's decorated founder/leader Biletsky considers "their country" is revealing:

Quote:
"Unfortunately, among the Ukrainian people today there are a lot of ‘Russians’ (by their mentality, not their blood), ‘kikes,’ ‘Americans,’ ‘Europeans’ (of the democratic-liberal European Union), ‘Arabs,’ ‘Chinese’ and so forth, but there is not much specifically Ukrainian," read one text. "The reason for this situation is the mass propaganda of trans-myths that are foreign to us through advertising, television, laws and education. It’s unclear how much time and effort will be needed to eradicate these dangerous viruses from our people."
 

https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/08/30/preparing-for-war-with-ukraines-fas...

That, is an "agenda". No matter how much nazi supporters such as yourself deny it and claim it is an irrelevant "belief".
By your sick apologetics  atrocities by ISIS are mere incidentals of war with nothing to do with "belief": "after all its not a crime to be right wing"--or a religious zealot.

6079_Smith_W

contrarianna wrote:

By your sick apologetics  atrocities by ISIS are mere incidentals of war with nothing to do with "belief": "after all its not a crime to be right wing"--or a religious zealot.

ISIS isn't just a militia unit. They are attempting to set up their own state with their own laws, and they are conducting military actions based on their philosophy - bulldozing ruins it sees as idolatrous, enslaving women and people based on their culture, and whether or not they follow their false version of Islam.

By contrast, Azov took its directions from the Ukrainian government, they aren't targetting Jewish people or any other culture, and in the year or so since our conversation they have been rolled into the regular forces and they aren't even officially called Azov anymore. And their job is doing reconaissance, special ops and bomb disposal, not spraypainting swastikas.

In case you were rubbing your hands waiting for them to suddenly morph into the SA or something.

So nice try on the smear, but I have to ask again, are you even pretending to be accurate here? Because it seems like you are just making things up and hoping no one will notice.

 

 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Quote:
The true reason why NATO is deploying troops to Poland and the Baltic States has nothing to do with any of the reasons that are being said.  It is because NATO is looking for some way to demonstrate publicly that it once more considers Russia an enemy and these highly provocative and illegal deployments are the way to do it.  That way it hopes to mobilise European opinion behind its latest anti-Russian campaign.

Alexander Mercouris in The Duran: The Warsaw Summit and NATO’s Reckless Bluff

Russia is the enemy because NATO says so. Therefore, more useless troop deployments are necessary.

ETA: "Oh, and round up the usual left wing suspects."

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

The Globe and Mail wrote:
NATO has deployed weapons – including ballistic missile defence systems – to forward positions on the Russian front...

Yup. The Russian Front. ahem. Wasn't that term used previously in history? Yes, I'm sure of it.

[Cue Jeopardy music ...]

Patrick Martin: Russia’s ‘collision course’ with NATO: Your guide to the new Cold War

There is no truth to the rumour that The Globe and Mail is selling a new board game, "The Russian Front" available in gaming stores everywhere, suitable for all ages from 10 to adult. Stainless steel figurines sold separately.

contrarianna

6079_Smith_W wrote:

So nice try on the smear, but I have to ask again, are you even pretending to be accurate here? Because it seems like you are just making things up and hoping no one will notice.

We both know the only one making stuff up is you, as you  desparately try to white wash your Nazi heros with lies, quibbles and red herrings.

6079_Smith_W wrote:

.. they have been rolled into the regular forces and they aren't even officially called Azov anymore. And their job is doing reconaissance, special ops and bomb disposal, not spraypainting swastikas.

They are, as you very well know, still the "Azov", now elevated to the "Azov Regiment" attached to the Ukrainian National Guard-- with their own Nazi leadership in the field, and Nazi insignias.  They are being used again to their shock troup roll:

Ukraine Today: Jun. 23, 2016

Quote:
National Guard's special-task regiments Azov and Donbas to the frontlines in the Anti-Terrorist Operation (ATO) zone in eastern Ukraine.

"First of all, it goes about a rapid reaction brigade of the National Guard and Azov and Donbas special-task regiments. They will return to the frontlines and will fulfill their functions of direct contact with the enemy," Shkiriak was quoted as saying by the Ukrainian Interior Ministry press service on its official Facebook page..

http://uatoday.tv/politics/azov-and-donbas-battalions-returning-to-the-f...

Though in their spare time they do teach citizenship to children:

Quote:
Shocking pictures from inside neo-Nazi military camp reveal recruits as young as SIX are being taught how to fire weapons (even though there's a ceasefire)Azov battalion, the far-right militia defending the port city of Mariupol, eastern Ukraine, runs the course for childrenDuring the week-long course, they teach so-called 'Azovets' how to fire weapons and survive in a conflict zone Camp comes under command of Andriy Biletsky, who once admitted that the battalion 'do not like ceasefire at all'...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3195711/Now-CHILDREN-taking-arms...

When they  aren't quilting and helping the handicapped:

 

Quote:
Human rights violations and war crimes
Azov battalion has been connected in OHCHR reports to such violations of conduct of war as mass looting, use of torture and abduction of journalists[52][53] An OHCHR report from March 2016 stated During the reporting period, OHCHR collected detailed information about the conduct of hostilities by Ukrainian armed forces and the Azov regiment in and around Shyrokyne (31km east of Mariupol), from the summer of 2014 to date. Mass looting of civilian homes was documented, as well as targeting of civilian areas between September 2014 and February 2015[54]
Another OHCHR report noted use of rape and torture, writing: 
A man with a mental disability was subject to cruel treatment, rape and other forms of sexual violence by eight to 10 members of the ‘Azov’ and ‘Donbas’ battalions in August-September 2014. The victim’s health subsequently deteriorated and he was hospitalized in a psychiatric hospital[55]
Azov members have been also accused by OHCHR of using torture and beatings to force confession out of detained civilian, including use of electricity and water-boarding[56]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion#Neo-Nazi_ideology_and_symbols

6079_Smith_W

Did you read that last link, contrarianna? Or do you figure if you write "Nazi" enough times people will just take your word for it and not bother?

 

contrarianna

6079_Smith_W wrote:

Did you read that last link, contrarianna? Or do you figure if you write "Nazi" enough times people will just take your word for it and not bother?

Your white washing, pro-Nazi, deflections are getting more desperate.

If you are suggesting its an incorrect link, look a little further up the same page.

I would urge people would look at all links, sources, do their own research and judge for themselves.

6079_Smith_W

I didn't say that. It is a fine link.

I'm saying, contrarianna, that you keep making accusations about them being a Nazi militia.

But while some of them are self-professed neo-Nazis and like all that gear, that ideology plays no role whatsoever in the battalion's missions or actions.

And information in that link demonstrates that any accusations fail when it comes to that hard evidence. They have not conducted operations that would suggest they are acting on some members' Nazi beliefs. And the fact that members of the battalion come from different cultures and nationalities (including Russian) means that whatever some of them might believe, they don't let it get in the way of working with others.

And I will remind you again thay my initial defense was of the government relying on them as a militia unit, and that if you are looking for fascists and human rights abuses, they can be found on both sides of this conflict.

 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

6079_Smith_W wrote:
... if you are looking for fascists and human rights abuses, they can be found on both sides of this conflict

There is no difference between your views and those of the barbaric NATO alliance.

Quote:
The (NATO) Summit rightly identified the need to reduce the number of civilian casualties in Ukraine.   (According to the Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs at the beginning of July this year the total number of those killed in the east of Ukraine amounted to 9,470 persons, and the number of those wounded was 21,880).  However nowhere in any of the documents is it anywhere said that these are overwhelmingly the victims of the illegal actions of the armed forces and ultra-right wing militias doing the Kiev regime’s bidding, who have used and are still using heavy weapons against residents of the Donbass in violation of the agreements reached in Minsk last year. According to the UN, as a result of shelling by of the armed forces of Ukraine, in just the month of June this year, 12 civilians were killed and 57 people were injured in the Donbass.

The Warsaw Summit: NATO"s blueprint for aggression

6079_Smith_W

Perhaps it doesn't say that anywhere in the documents because it is not true, ikosmos.

 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Since you're so convinced, Smith, why don't you start a thread on the "human rights abuses" by the liberation forces of Donetsky and Lugansk? Provide evidence of the "Russian invasion" of Ukraine? Show us how NATO is preserving the peace in today's world?  Explain why comparing ethnic Russians to insects is really simply asserting "independent" Ukrainian culture?


 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Russophobia and the dark art of making an anti-Russian magazine cover

 

1. Go with the Bear;

2. Go for Putin, possibly shirtless;

3. Take a classic image and twist it;

4. If you tired of using the bear, try an octopus. Because freedom.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Recent WADA allegations, based on the testimony of a single, disgraced witness, [Grigory Rodchenkov, who is in hiding in the US (natch!) with his own, brand-new US-sponsored lab]  is showing a weaponization of sports, an insertion of politics into sports for geo-political reasons, in which Canadian officials are heavily involved, show no sign of letting up.

The release of unsubstantiated claims by Canadian and US officials, even before the WADA report, shows that they whole process is deeply suspect and partisan.

The use of collective punishment, [see here: WADA calls for collective punishment of all Russian officials] banned under international law, the export of US law over-throwing international law, are some of the techniques used here. Lurid tales of the FSB, doing this and that, are something right out of the most extreme cold war playbook.

There is no end to Russophobia. The Empire simply cannot accept disobedience.

Russia President: Politics Should Not Interfere With Sports

see also: Dangerous Throwback to the 1980's

Mind you, this is also a great opportunity to "clean house" and get rid of genuine doping violators in Russia. [Russian President Putin "said that Russian officials mentioned in the WADA report as direct perpetrators of doping violations will be suspended until the investigation is completed."] But it also puts into question all those athletes, who should be considered innocent until proven guilty, or those in their first Olympic Games, etc., and their years of effort to participate in the Games - possibly ruined. 

Hybrid warfare, the weaponization of sports, it's all part of the techniques used now to conduct warfare against states that don't obey the Master.

 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Stalinist Witch-Hunt Against Russian Athletes

How bad is it?

Quote:
One demand more than any other demonstrates how ugly this affair has become.  The IAAF and now the sports bodies of the US and Canada are not only demanding that Russian athletes prove their innocence before they can take part in the Games.  They also demand that even if athletes prove their innocence, they should only be allowed to take part in the Games as “neutrals” and not as Russians.  Thus even if proved innocent Russian athletes would have to deny their nation and their country – foregoing the right to wear its colours or hear its anthem if they win.

Truly barbarous Canadian and US officials. That's what "lawfare" leads to.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

More from The Duran piece ...

Quote:
Let’s break this down. We have US controlled Canada, heading up a doping report that is clearly aimed at stripping Russian athletes of their Sochi 2014 medals, and banning Russia from the Rio games…all based on single person’s testimony given to the New York Times…yes the newspaper of record, that reported consistently and without abandon that Iraq did indeed have Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMDs) in 2003....

But the source itself is good, no?

Quote:
A criminal case alleging the violation of anti-doping laws was launched against him in 2012, Putin said, adding that one of Rodchenkov’s “close relatives” who worked under his auspices has been found guilty in Russia “for trafficking of anabolic steroids.”

The entire WADA case is built on the testimony of a man who himself was found guilty of trafficking anabolic steroids. We are sure the US/Canadian government will compensate Dr. Rodchenkov handsomely for a job well done....

That never happens! Ever! bwa ha ha ha

Quote:
The Russians do not deny that there has been a doping problem in Russian sport and seem to have made a genuine effort to respond to the concerns of the international sporting bodies.  Though it is barely reported in the West, since January samples of all Russian track and field athletes are sent to Britain for testing.  Russian athletes now engaging in doping would presumably have to fool or gain the cooperation of the British authorities in order to do it.  Neither seems very likely.  The Russians have also banned the individuals they allege were involved in doping from further involvement in sport, and have brought criminal charges against some of them.

Notwithstanding these steps, since January there has been an escalating campaign to discredit Russian sports and to have Russian athletes banned from the Olympic Games, which are due to take place in Rio de Janeiro.  It first began with a media campaign against Russia’s Maria Sharapova, Russia’s iconic tennis champion.  Sharapova was banned for using meldonium, a Soviet era medicine still made in Latvia which is very commonly used in the former USSR, and which it was perfectly legal for athletes to use until just the beginning of this year.

The Russians have made it fairly clear they think the reason meldonium was placed on the list of prohibited substances is because Western athletes don’t take it as it is hardly known in the West.  By contrast many Russian athletes do take it – as do many other Russians – for purely medical reasons.  Though Sharapova only took the medicine for a period of 2 weeks after it was prohibited, a media campaign was launched against her in the West, and she was banned from international tennis competition for 2 years....

An organized, planned campaign... Incidently, even UK officials were targeted for character assassination ... until they submitted to carrying out the Russophobia themselves. Read the full article for more details of what happened to ... Lord Coe.

Quote:
Followers of the Magnitsky and other affairs will be familiar with the pattern whereby individuals charged with serious crimes in Russia are called “whistleblowers” in the West. ..

Got that? Terrorists = "freedom fighters" in the West (e.g. Chechen).  Serious criminal charges = "whistleblowers". Meanwhile, genuine whistelblowers have to flee to Russia (Snowden), the Ecuadorian Embassey in London (Assange), or are simply tortured (Manning) and imprisoned ...

Quote:
One demand more than any other demonstrates how ugly this affair has become.  The IAAF and now the sports bodies of the US and Canada are not only demanding that Russian athletes prove their innocence before they can take part in the Games.  They also demand that even if athletes prove their innocence, they should only be allowed to take part in the Games as “neutrals” and not as Russians.  Thus even if proved innocent Russian athletes would have to deny their nation and their country – foregoing the right to wear its colours or hear its anthem if they win.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Quote:
It first began with a media campaign against Russia’s Maria Sharapova, Russia’s iconic tennis champion.  Sharapova was banned for using meldonium, a Soviet era medicine still made in Latvia which is very commonly used in the former USSR, and which it was perfectly legal for athletes to use until just the beginning of this year.

Evidently, meldonium was prescribed to treat coronary ischemia -- basically, lack of blood flow to the myocardium, or heart muscle.

So these athletes are all suffering from coronay ischemia??  Best look that up before saying "Yes" or "Maybe" or "who can say???"

I don't know Sharapova's medical condition. However, it's used to "protect the heart", or something like that, for athletes going to their physical human limits so as not to have a heart attack, etc. The basic facts are there.... in particular ...

Did you read the part where it's noted that Nike still has her under contract? What are they? Confused? I'm curious what you think about their decision. Inquiring minds want to know.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

The Duran piece by Alexander Mercouris is gut-wrenching reading for anyone concerned about "the good name" of Canadian sporting officials. It's just a great big disgrace.

1.

Quote:
more interesting than the WADA report itself is that it finally made clear who is actually behind the campaign to prevent Russian athletes from attending the Rio Games.  The report was leaked before it was published to the US and Canadian sports authorities, who used it to lobby the International Olympic Committee (“IOC”) to have the entire Russian team, not just the track and field athletes, banned from the Rio Games.  The fact that the leak has compromised WADA’s appearance of independence, and the ethical issues involved in the sporting bodies of two countries lobbying the IOC for a blanket ban of the athletes of a third country, appears to have shocked some European sports officials

Not only did Canada leak the report before WADA addressed it, undermining WADA's authority, but the very action of the officials of two regimes - Canada and the US - calling for the ban of a third country is unprecedented. It just disgraces Canada. blechh.

2. Not enough?

Quote:
... they demand that athletes against whom there is no evidence of previous wrongdoing and who there is now every reason to think will be competing in Rio cleanly, should be banned because of allegations of wrongdoing against other athletes and sports officials with whom they happen to share the same nationality.  That is collective punishment of people belonging to the same national group as well as guilt by association, practices formerly considered unacceptable in civilised countries. 

Yeah, you got it. Collective punishment.

3. Still not enough? OK, how about ...

Quote:
Those behind the campaign have even at times come close to saying that the Russians should confess that the allegations of systematic state involvement in doping are true if they want Russian athletes to be allowed to compete in Rio.  That it is profoundly wrong and unethical to bully a confession out of someone

Canadian Cardinal Inquisitor: "Confess! Uncle Joe says you were a running dog of something or another."

4. and finally,

Quote:
One demand more than any other demonstrates how ugly this affair has become.  The IAAF and now the sports bodies of the US and Canada are not only demanding that Russian athletes prove their innocence before they can take part in the Games.  They also demand that even if athletes prove their innocence, they should only be allowed to take part in the Games as “neutrals” and not as Russians.  Thus even if proved innocent Russian athletes would have to deny their nation and their country – foregoing the right to wear its colours or hear its anthem if they win. 

Renounce your country! Because freedom! But wait! ... there's STILL more!

5.

Quote:
If the case in Lausanne were simply being decided on legal principles there is no doubt the Russian athletes would win.  Imposing a blanket ban on athletes of one country simply because they happen to be citizens of that country when there is no evidence against them is wrong at so many levels it is difficult to believe any court would allow it.  However one has to face the reality that even courts that were once genuinely independent and impartial now find themselves increasingly used as weapons in what is coming to be called “lawfare”.   It is therefore no longer possible to take anything for granted. 

We shall know the answer on Thursday 21st July 2016, when the Court will publish its decision, from which be it noted there is no appeal.



Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
It first began with a media campaign against Russia’s Maria Sharapova, Russia’s iconic tennis champion.  Sharapova was banned for using meldonium, a Soviet era medicine still made in Latvia which is very commonly used in the former USSR, and which it was perfectly legal for athletes to use until just the beginning of this year.

Evidently, meldonium was prescribed to treat coronary ischemia -- basically, lack of blood flow to the myocardium, or heart muscle.

So these athletes are all suffering from coronary ischemia??  Best look that up before saying "Yes" or "Maybe" or "who can say???"

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
I don't know Sharapova's medical condition.

I know what it's not:  coronary ischemia.

Quote:
Did you read the part where it's noted that Nike still has her under contract? What are they? Confused? I'm curious what you think about their decision.

I have no opinion on their decision.  Shrug.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:
I have no opinion on their decision.  Shrug.

"... if Sharapova had really been taking the medicine to enhance her performance she would presumably have kept the fact she was taking it secret and would have kept a careful eye out in case it was banned, taking immediate steps to conceal her use when it was banned.  That she did none of these things is a strong sign her actions were innocent as she says, and that her perfectly plausible explanation is true.  That the US sports fashion group Nike continues to work with her shows they too believe her explanation is true."

Politics is one thing but business is business, as the saying goes. Presumably, you are  interested in finding out whether Sharapova's explanation was true - why else ask questions about her?

So Nike believes her. That's quite remarkable, hmm? You're not interested. Now, that is interesting. You're willing to cast doubts on the athlete's explanation and shrug off any contrary evidence.


Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Quote:
That the US sports fashion group Nike continues to work with her shows they too believe her explanation is true.

Or, she can continue to help them sell running shoes.

Quote:
Presumably, you are  interested in finding out whether Sharapova's explanation was true - why else ask questions about her?

What questions did I ask about her?

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:
What questions did I ask about her?

Mr. Magoo: "So these athletes are all suffering from coronary ischemia?? "

As I remarked above, you seem willing to cast doubts on the athlete's explanation while rejecting the evidence that her sponsor, megacorporation Nike, doesn't share this view and is willing to put their money where their mouth is, i.e., use her name to market their shoes, etc.. 

Then again, this is the New Russophobia thread, so even such examples of "inexplicable" bias are useful.

Cheers, and have a nice day.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Well, now you got me curious.  Here's Nike's stirrng defense of her innocence:

Quote:

"Each time those situations happen, you are saddened and disappointed," Edwards said on Wednesday at a New York event where the world's biggest sportswear company announced new products like self-lacing shoes. "At the same time, there are many athletes that inspire us."

Edwards, a 53-year-old from Britain, has held his position since 2013 and is seen as a contender to succeed Chief Executive Officer Mark Parker one day. He oversees an annual marketing budget of more than $3 billion and has helped make deals with top athletes like basketball star LeBron James.

Earlier this month, Nike suspended its sponsorship of Sharapova, the highest-paid woman in sports, after she said she had failed a drug test at the Australian Open due to a substance she was taking for health issues.

However, Edwards hinted Sharapova could return to the Nike fold, as the company allowed U.S. sprinter Justin Gatlin to do after he twice served doping suspensions.

Asked about Sharapova, he said: "At the end of the day, athletes are humans just like the rest of us, and they have the same frailties that the rest of us have. And sometimes those moments become teaching moments."

And here's more on her "health issues:

Quote:
According to Sharapova, she had been using the recently banned drug meldonium for the past 10 years — or most of the time she's been a pro tennis champion — because of a variety of medical conditions.

Meldonium is prescribed primarily to treat conditions like heart failure. But Sharapova justified her use of the medicine because of her magnesium deficiency, "irregular" EKG results, and a history of diabetes in her family that put her at a higher risk for the disease — reasons cardiologist Eric Topic told Vox "make no sense at all."

What's more, the AP reported that officials at the Latvian company that makes the drug said it's usually only prescribed for courses of four to six weeks.

Imagine.  A magnesium deficiency.  #prayformaria

A shame these don't enhance athletic performance:

[IMG]http://i67.tinypic.com/2ibj7z6.png[/IMG]

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

In relations to the doping allegations, other babblers have chosen to post on the 'regular' Russia2 thread, and I've responded there somewhat .. even though the frenzied campaign, guilt by association, advocacy of collective punishment, etc., properly belong on this thread. Up to now I've mostly posted over there about cultural stuff, interesting essays and speeches by public figures, etc.

It's sort of amusing to see how that thread, like this one, gets choked up with "contributions" in which the reader would be forgiven if they came to the conclusion that Russia has never, will never, make any significant contribution to human civilization ... and should apologize for taking space on Planet Earth each time they open their mouths.

Amusing, except that we are also taking about military sabre-rattling, symbolic troop movements thousands of kilometers away, the construction and maintenance of ABM shields designed to facilitate a first-strike nuclear attack, sponsorship of extremist/fascistic ethnic cleansing, and so on....

A witch-hunt is on. Where will it stop? There is no "natural" barrier to pathological Russophobia in Canada. It has been lovingly nourished for decades by the authorities, in many of the mass and social movements of the citizenry, even in the labour movement. No one who lies about Russia in the MSM ever suffers for their bogus claims. Instead, "journalists" are catapulted into the spotlight, richly promoted for their incredulous yarns, and quietly forgotten when the claims don't live up to the truth. 

And the upcoming Rio Olympics are a perfect time to jack up the volume, inject politics into sport, weaponize sport, and follow that up with ... what? Who knows. 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

I wrote:
And the upcoming Rio Olympics are a perfect time to jack up the volume, inject politics into sport, weaponize sport, and follow that up with ... what? Who knows.

We may already have an answer.

Some points about a Russian ban ...

1. The campaign may expand to include stripping Russia of the World Cup. The extremity may result in parallel sporting events being created.

2. Criticism around WADA ...

Quote:
I do not say that there was no doping problem within Russian sports.  The Russian authorities admit there was.  The problem is that the manner in which this affair has been conducted makes it impossible to trust the findings in the WADA report.  There would need to be a far more detailed and thorough investigation – one which questioned all the individuals concerned and which made all its evidence public – before findings of the sort made by the WADA report could be confidently accepted.  However I want to emphasise that even if all the claims of systematic state sponsored doping by the Russian authorities made in the WADA report are true, they would still not in my opinion justify a blanket ban on Russian athletes, many of whom may be wholly innocent.  Nor would they entitle the sports authorities to strip Russian athletes of the presumption of innocence.  Rather what they should result in is lifetime bans on all those involved and criminal action against them.

Which is pretty well what I have been saying here.

3. The following is interesting.

"since international sports became wholly professionalised the sort of sports administrators and officials who make up these organisations are too heavily involved in the commercial world – which is dominated by Western money and Western interests – to risk their careers by taking a stand ..."

We see what one of the results of the professionalization of sport brings - corruption, difficult to control. But that's capitalism, eh?

4. The Russian response. Unexpected and not following the stereotypical narrative.

Quote:
When the allegations of systematic state sponsored doping first circulated last year I suspect they expected the Russians to respond according to their Hollywood stereotype: with defiance, bluster and threats, and with a complete refusal to cooperate.  That would have made it much easier – though still wrong – to justify a call for a blanket ban.  Instead the Russians responded in a more sophisticated way – admitting there was a problem, offering cooperation, and putting in place arrangements which would satisfy any reasonable person ...

"Predictably that only made those behind the campaign angry, and even more determined to have their way."

Ya think?

5.

Quote:
Notwithstanding this I do not expect any other country to boycott the Olympics in solidarity with Russia, and I do not expect the Russians to call for such a boycott.  However with sports bodies and sports officials around the world having seen the ruthless way the Western powers have conducted themselves in this affair, some of them will no doubt be asking the question: who is next?

Who's next? ... in other words.

In conclusion, then

Quote:
I predict that over time parallel sporting events will be established – just as is happening in the world of global finance with the parallel financial institutions that are now being created by China, and as is of course also happening in the world of international media – if only as a means of insurance against something like this happening again.

This may turn out to be a very prescient argument. 

 

links:

A. Mercouris - The Olympic Movement - Heading for a Split?

CBC - IOC could ban Russian team from Rio

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Quote:
German tabloid Bild said it will not report Russian athletes’ medal count during the Rio 2016 Olympics if they are allowed to compete by the IOC.

No prejudice there, no sirree Bob.

But no worries, because the Court of Arbitration for Sport just ruled for the blanket ban. Three cheers for collective punishment! 

The IOC will decide for itself on Sunday.

 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Alexander Mercouris: "My predictions were true."

Quote:
Since no one is saying what the Russians need to do in order to be readmitted to the Olympic Games, the ban that has been imposed on their track and field athletes is open ended, with no indication of how or when it will ever be lifted.  The same will surely be true of the ban which will shortly be imposed on the whole Russian Olympic team.  It could be in place for a very long time.  Russians should not assume that they will be allowed to compete in subsequent Olympic Games in any foreseeable future, and they should steel themselves for a renewed campaign in the next few weeks to strip Russia of the football World Cup, though FIFA for the moment is holding firm.

In light of all of this the setting up by Russia of alternative sports events for its own athletes is an imperative necessity.  Obviously these events will not attract much in the way of foreign participation initially, and the Western media can be predicted to ignore them.

And, it turns out, they already have such a tradition...

Quote:
In Soviet times Russia did have its own alternative to the Olympic Games in the form of the Spartakiad, which the Western media often used to sneer at as an “Olympic rehearsal”.   During the Stalin era, when Russia (until the Helsinki Games in 1952) did not participate in the Olympic Games, it was for Russian athletes their main sports event.

Swiss court upholds ban; time to renew the Spartakiad

 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Backgrounder: the Olympics as a tool of the New Cold War.

The article usefully outlines some very important facts of the New Cold War in the Western MSM. In particular, the links between Yulia Stepanova, (disgraced athlete receiving political asylum in Canada)  her husband Vitaly Stepanov, (paid $30,000 by WADA to move here)  and Gregory Rodchenkov (the sole "witness" in the McLaren fabrications, already convicted for trafficking in anabolic steroids) .  A most fetid tale.

The article also shows how, by a blanket ban rather than by banning particular athletes based on actual evidence, McLaren was able to avoid court challenges, the presumption of innocence, criminal investigation against him, the danger of getting his ass sued off and his own career destroyed, etc., etc..

 

 

sherpa-finn

Ha.

As the Bard famously wrote: "The ikosmos doth protest too much, methinks". 

As the masses are inclined to say: "You do the crime, you do the time." 

And as the neighbourhood children are known to sing about bullies and cheaters "Liar, liar, pants on fire".

Get over it.  The rest of the world is moving on. 

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

As Alexander Mercouris has noted, just as China has established institutions in the financial domain [Asia Development Bank, e.g., also SCO, etc.] to free that country from the IMF, World Bank and other Bretton Woods neo-liberal barbarism and prejudice, so too Russia may find itself having to establish new sporting institutions,  [as with the old Soviet Spartakiad] free from the commercialized and corrupt WADA and Olympic structures.

While the Russian sporting authorities are unlikely to retaliate - it will be interesting to see, e.g., what the effect on the KHL/NHL relationship will be, if any.

Just as the "original" Cold War had, for one of its origins, the claims of one "whistleblower" in Canada being the basis for a Kanadian Kangaroo Kourt (Gouzenko and, e.g., the Kellock–Taschereau Commission as judge, jury and executioner to strip MP Fred Rose of his seat in Parliament, etc.), so too one felon, fleeing prosecution is now the basis for another Cold War, also with a Canadian origin, this time to inject geo-politics into sports,target an entire country and its athletes,  and weaponize cultural activities.

Way to go, Canada - the chihuahua of US foreign policy; then, as now.

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Well if the USSR could be stripped of the Olympic games for invading Afghanistan then why not for this offence. The fact that it is occurring at the same time as a revitalized cold war is obviously merely coincidental. It leaves one to conclude that NATO troops on the Russian border and the new "defensive" nukes being developed are a good thing since we know just how evil and underhanded those Russians are. I guess it was not socialism at all but just some inherent cultural failure of the Russian people that makes them so despicable. After all it is not like there are any leaders that the majority of Russians would support that would be toadies to the West so therefore it is apparent the country is irredeemable. 

ygtbk

ikosmos wrote:

Just as the "original" Cold War had, for one of its origins, the claims of one "whistleblower" in Canada being the basis for a Kanadian Kangaroo Kourt (Gouzenko and, e.g., the Kellock–Taschereau Commission as judge, jury and executioner to strip MP Fred Rose of his seat in Parliament, etc.), so too one felon, fleeing prosecution is now the basis for another Cold War, also with a Canadian origin, to inject geo-politics into sports and weaponize cultural activities.

Perhaps not the best analogy you could have pursued, since Gouzenko really was the cipher clerk for the GRU resident in Ottawa, and Fred Rose really was a spy.

http://luxexumbra.blogspot.ca/2012/01/gouzenko-and-soviet-target.html

http://www.themontrealreview.com/2009/Soviet-Espionage-in-Canada-The-Fred-Rose-Affair.php

See also The Venona Secrets (Romerstein and Briendel), especially Beria quotes on page 15.

bekayne

kropotkin1951 wrote:

Well if the USSR could be stripped of the Olympic games for invading Afghanistan then why not for this offence. 

They weren't

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