Canadian arms exports to Saudi Arabia ignore the Elephant in the Room

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Richard Sanders Richard Sanders's picture
Canadian arms exports to Saudi Arabia ignore the Elephant in the Room

Critics of Canada's Arms Exports to Saudi Arabia Ignore the Elephant in the Room
By Richard Sanders, coordinator, Coalition to Oppose the Arms Trade (COAT)

A July 12, 2016, article in VICE ("Canada isn't being totally honest about its plan to sell weapons to Saudi Arabia") says:
"Critics of the deal, like [Steven] Staples [former President, Rideau Institute] and [Cesar] Jaramillo [of Project Ploughshares], point out that under Canada's export rules, the government can't sell military hardware to a country 'whose governments have a persistent record of serious violations of the human rights of their citizens, unless it can be demonstrated that there is no reasonable risk that the goods might be used against the civilian population.'"

Unfortunately, this isn't true. In fact, the Canada's so-called "rules" are actually just what the govt itself just calls call "guidelines." What's more, these "guidelines" DO NOT say that Canada CAN'T sell weapons to human rights violating govt's. In reality, these "guidelines" merely state that Canada will "closely control" the export of weapons to certain governments. "Closely control." THAT is the operative phrase in the "guidelines." What does that phrase actually mean? In reality, the govt can "closely control" arms exports by actually INCREASING those exports. This appears to be exactly what has been happening over the 30 years that I've been studying Canada's military exports.

To assert that Canada has "rules" and "laws" to prevent or stop weapons sales to human rights violators is a huge deception.  It is perpetuated for obvious reasons by the Cdn govt. But less obvious is why mainstream peace activists would also persist in perpetuating this illusion about non-existent "rules" and "laws" that supposedly stop Canada's sales to human rights violators? There are no such rules or laws, they are mere guidelines with key weasel words that actually mean the govt is within its rights to INCREASE the flow of weapons to human rights violators. So why pretend otherwise?

The narrative that Cda has these "laws," fits into the grand myth that this country is a force for peace in the world. This story-line is something that many mainstream peace activists -- especially those frequently chosen to provide pithy quotes for the corporate media -- seem to want to continue to embrace.

There's another problem that needs addressing.  The elephant in the room in the media coverage about Canada's weapons sales to Saudi Arabia is somethinmg that even the mainstream peace movement seems to want to shy away from. That huge elephant is the US.  The US, not Saudi Arabia, is Canada's biggest recipient of military hardware.  We export some $3 or 4 billion to the US every year.  The US is a much worse country to export weapons to. They are constantly at war and have killed millions of people around the world in our lifetimes. Canada is no.1 supplier of military equipment to the US.  No other country on earth comes even close to Canada in terms of supplying the US with military equipment (mostly in the form of high-tech components for major weapons systems, like warplanes). The US is the warmongering godfather of Saudi Arabia, and so many other notorious human rights violators.

We also sell them complete weapons systems, like the Canadian-made LAVs. While people seem to think this is a recent phenomena, Canada has actually been selling these weapons systems to Saudi Arabia for some 25 years.  Cdn LAVs that were sold to the US, clicked literally MILLIONS of miles in Iraq, and were a major contribution to waging the war there. Where is Cda's moral outrage (or even a passing reference) to that fact? It is no where, because Cdns have no idea. Just like so many Cdns have no idea that Canada was in fact very deeply complicit in the Iraq War.  This is not only because the Cdn govt and corporate media supported this deceptive narrative, but also because mainstream Cdn peace organisations -- like Ploughshares and the Rideau Institute -- decided to back these myths and then take credit for persuading the Liberal govt to "say 'NO'" to the Iraq War (2003) and to joining the Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) weapons program (2004) (See issues 56, 57, 58 of COAT's Press for Conversion! on Canada's deep involvement in BMD.)  Following the quick public acceptance of these Canadian peace myths it became impossible to rally people to oppose Canada's deep complicity in the Iraq War and BMD weapons-related programs.  While acceptance of these myths helped promote the Liberal government's facade as a force for peace, and boosted support for those mainstream peace groups that credited themselves with these phoney successes, it was detrimental to the peace movement as a whole.

Peace activists should know that our country's military exports to the US are a more serious threat to global peace and human rights than the smaller sales of weapons to Saudi Arabia. So why don't those mainstream activists who have frequent access to the corporate media take every opportunity they can to expose and oppose Canada's much bigger volume of weapons exports to the US?  Do they just not realise this, or are they making a conscious decision to (1) strategically focus on the Saudi deal and (2) downplay the much bigger problem of Canada's weapons sales to the world's leading warmonger and war profiteer, namely, the US?

To answer this, let's get back to Canada's meaningless arms-export "guidelines".  These "guidelines" also say that Cda will "closely control" military exports to countries "at war" and even to govts that are likely to soon be at war (ie., "under the threat of war.") Unfortunately, the vast majority of Cdn weapons exports (ranked by value) go straight into the arsenals of countries that ARE at war, like the US and our other NATO allies. So much then for Cdn "guidelines" to "close control" weapons exports. They are a total farce. The other thing is that NO export permits are even required for ANY Canadian military exports to the US. The US is totally exempt from Canada's whole export-permit process. Controlling Canadian arms exports to the US seems then to be totally beyond our reach. Is it a lst cause that we shouldn't deign to raise?  Would it make people just want to give up the struggle?  Are activists really so driven by the need to feel that they can solve managable problems, that we shouldn't reveal to them that the real problems we face are actually much bigger and more complex than they thought?

To answer that question, let's look at another problem. The VICE article describes the Arms Trade Treaty (ATT) as "an agreement that would impose restrictions on the international sale of, amongst other things, armored combat vehicles and large-calibre artillery systems ­ which would certainly include the LAV III."

Unfortunately this isn't the case. The ATT is also a farce. Although much heralded by some mainstream peace, human rights and development organisations, the ATT does absolutely NOTHING to stop the so-called "legal" arms trade between govts. The treaty's sole purpose is to stop the illicit or illegal weapons trade, which is a small fraction of the so-called "legitimate" trade in weapons between states, like Cda's totally legal military exports to the US and Saudi Arabia. (Among the several millions of dollars that Project Ploughshares received from Harper's Conservative govt, they received hundreds of thousands in govt contracts related to studying and promoting the ATT.)

Think about it. If the ATT was going to do anything to actually stop the ongoing flow of billions of dollars worth of weapons every year between govts like Cda, the US, Saudi Arabia and other nations at war or smashing human rights, why would the ATT have the support of most of the world's largest weapons producing/exporting nations? Every state member of the NATO military alliance supports the ATT. If the ATT was going to stop this flow of weapons, why on earth would it be supported by most of the world's largest weapons producers and exporters?

But the bigger question for progressives to deal with is this: Why is the ATT being supported and promoted by some of the world's largest human rights and development agencies, like Amnesty and Oxfam? It's also supported by all of Cda's parliamentary political parties.  Large mainstream NGOs aren't just suppoirting the ATT because some receive significant financial support from their arms trade-friendly govts. Some NGO supportyers don't receive govt funding.  The answer has something to do with these NGOs acceptance of the prevailing mainstream narratives and myths that are perpetuated by govts and the corporate media.

And, it is very important to remember here that these big NGOs also rely on the public for donations. The public will support these NGOs financially if they are seen to be backing huge, successful campaigns and initiatives like the ATT, which appears -- on the surface -- to be a big step forward in the struggle to oppose the global arms trade.   Unfortunately, it's not.  The ATT is a big step towards regulating and controlling the illegal trade in weapons.  This is actually welcomed by most of the govt's that facilitate the the weaponstrade.

A good analogy might be with the struggle to abolish the slave trade 200 years ago. Imagine if during that struggle, the major slave-trading govt's of the day put forward a treaty that opposed only the illicit or illegal slave trade that they themselves didn't control. Such a treaty treaty would not do anything to stop the "legal" trade in slaves between states, but would only stop the transfer of slaves to illicit or illegal slave owners. This farcical Slave Trade Treaty, like today's Arms Trade Treaty, would do absolutely nothing to stop anything but a fraction of the ongoing trade. Anyone can see why the big slave exporters and the big weapons exporters (and their friends in govt), would really like such farcical treaties.  They would want the public to see these treaties as proof that they were doing something positive to control the trade in slaves and weapons.  What we really need to deal with is why progressives who profess to oppose the slave trade and/or the weapons trade (and who are most quoted in the corporate media) would support such farcical treaties.  Why would they present these treaties as a major part of the solution?

Getting the large mainstream peace, human rights and development groups on board the ATT gives the legal arms trade what amounts to a much-needed seal of approval. This stamp of approval, like putting "Fair Trade" stickers on most of the world's so-called "legal" weapons exports, is something that clearly benefits arms producers, exporters and the govts that are complicit with them. Is the role of progressive movements to sign over public endorsement for the so-called legal trade in weapons and give our okay to the "control" mechanisms which facilitate that horrible trade? 

Rather than trying to help regain credibility for the ludicrous myth that Canada is a global force for peace and human rights, progressives should be trying to debunk those myths and lay them to rest once and for all.  We need to confront the grave contradictions within progressive movements and try to have a more radical analysis that digs at and unearths the root of the problems we face. Otherwise we progressives may be part of the very problems we are trying so hard to confront.

 

For a critical analysis of the Arms Trade Treaty please see these articles on the Coalition to Oppose the Arms Trade (COAT) webpage.

Regions: 
NDPP

Canada Defends Record $11B Arms Sale To Saudi Arabia in Court

http://rt.com/news/371151-canada-arms-saudi-court

"The Canadian government is fighting a court battle against an anti-war activist seeking to derail a record arms deal with Saudi Arabia."

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

I've been to trade union educationals in which i've been shouted down by ravenous supporters of Canada's wars, Canada's arms trade, and the like. You suddenly realize that the "imperialists" aren't out there ... they're right next to you. Unnerving.

I wonder if the writers at RT realize what a sleeping giant this issue is. If Canadians were to "wake up" and discover what a brutal, imperialist regime they live under, the shit might hit the fan - politically speaking. 

Richard - if you have some easily accessible date or article(s) on the political economy of military production in Canada (I suspect much of it is secret) or simply on the volume of same ... that would be very helpful.

 

voice of the damned

ikosmos wrote:

I wonder if the writers at RT realize what a sleeping giant this issue is. If Canadians were to "wake up" and discover what a brutal, imperialist regime they live under, the shit might hit the fan - politically speaking. 

 

Well, in fairness to Canadians, perhaps one of the reasons that they don't care about Canada's arms-trade is that no else in the world seems to care either. Including the people who could fairly be reckoned as its victims.

Over the years, I have seen many international protests against countries that USE weapons against other countries, be it the US, the UK, Russia, or whomever. I don't think I've ever seen an international protest against a country that MANUFACTURES the weapons. Even in cases where the user is also the manufacturer, the protests almost always seem to be against the former capacity, not the latter. The only anti-industry protests I've ever seen were domestic, ie. activists within the country itself demonstrating against the weapons companies, and even those are few and far between.

So, not wanting to blame the victims or anything, but if the rest of the world can't be bothered to care about Canada's arms exports, can we really blame Canadians for not caring?

 

 

 

Mobo2000

Thanks for this, Richard.

I am very disappointed with UNIFOR and Jerry Dias over their role in this, as well.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

voice of the damned wrote:
So, not wanting to blame the victims or anything, but if the rest of the world can't be bothered to care about Canada's arms exports, can we really blame Canadians for not caring?

RT had the above-linked story and there are already hundreds of comments. Can't be bothered? Maybe not.

But, clearly, as I found out in my tu educational, military production creates a political base of support for such industries. The US MIC, noted as far back as by D Eisenhower on his way OUT of office, is only the most extreme example.

Military sales, cushioned as they are by lax and/or secretive tendering processes, a revolving door between the private and public sectors, and so on, make for big profits. All we all know that profits trump everything under capitalism.

Interestingly, Eisenhower, or his writer, had orginally intended to note the dangers of the Military-Industrial-Academic Complex. I read somewhere that the "academic" part was dropped on the grounds that he would be savaged by those very same "disinterested" and "objective" academics.

iyraste1313

So, not wanting to blame the victims or anything, but if the rest of the world can't be bothered to care about Canada's arms exports, can we really blame Canadians for not caring?...

...what a bunch of complacent nonsense!!

How can anyone in Canada sleep at night knowing what our industries, our authorities, our governments are doing to encourage the death and massacres everywhere...or will we just have to wait until they turn the munitions on us...as we beg and starve in the streets and initiate our protests far too late?

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Well, for many people economics trumps morality and they are persuaded that "if Canada didn't sell the weapons to the Saudis then someone else would", etc. This is why military industries POLLUTE the political climate in a country. We certainly see it in the USA with the well-established MIC; it exists here as well.

What I've seen from the left analysis of military industries is an emphasis on conversion. The noisy and well funded cheerleaders of military production have to be defeated with better weapons than moral arguments.

I still think it's a public service, however, to publiicize this stuff, and noisily too. Canadians want their country to be a "peaceable kingdom", they long to believe that it's true, they're fooled, over and over again, by liberal promises and nonsense, but they are, in fact, generous to others and those sentiments - if gullible - are not a bad thing at all.

voice of the damned

iyraste1313 wrote:

So, not wanting to blame the victims or anything, but if the rest of the world can't be bothered to care about Canada's arms exports, can we really blame Canadians for not caring?...

...what a bunch of complacent nonsense!!

How can anyone in Canada sleep at night knowing what our industries, our authorities, our governments are doing to encourage the death and massacres everywhere...or will we just have to wait until they turn the munitions on us...as we beg and starve in the streets and initiate our protests far too late?

I consider myself to be fairly well-informed, but I will confess that the only reason I know that Canada supplied the uranium for the bomb dropped on Hiroshima is because it's mentioned(via old newsreel footage) in the NFB film If You Love This Planet. Had I not gone to the church basement that night to see the movie, I probably would never have known that.

And I think the only place I ever heard that CANDU reactors were instrumental in India's nuclear program was in my Grade 10 Social Studies textbook, where that fact was put into the mouth of a fictional American liberal, disillusioned of his image of the northern Peaceable Kingdom. I'm pretty sure I've never heard that fact mentioned anywhere else, without searching it out. (I don't doubt that these facts ARE mentioned elsewhere, but with such infrequency that a relatively well-informed person can go his whole life without hearing it.)

And a few years back, the voters of Switzerland were handed the opportunity to stop arms exports, via a national referendum on the issue. They voted something like 68% to continue. This barely made the news anywhere, and I'd be quite surprised if anyone in the world is outraged enough to eventually "turn the munitions" on the Swiss.

And this isn't the same thing as saying "Well, if we don't sell the weapons, someone else will". More like simply observing that there doesn't seem to be anything remotely approaching a global consensus that countries which export weapon technology are doing something bad.

 

 

swallow

Thanks for the useful post, Richard. 

It definitely seem to be accurate that Canada has no laws or rules on arms sales. Peace groups no doubt claim that the guidelines have some force as a campaign tactic, but I agree it's an ineffective tactic - the peace movement needs to expose the hypocrisy and dishonesty about this line that Canada has "some fo the strongest export controls in the world." 

I do see the Arms Trade Treaty as a step forward, since it includes a commitment by signatories not to sell arms "if it has knowledge at the time of authorization that the arms or items would be used in the commission of genocide, crimes against humanity, grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 1949, attacks directed against civilian objects or civilians protected as such, or other war crimes as defined by international agreements to which it is a Party." This is weak, but it is something. Arguably it would bar Canada from selling arms to Saudi Arabia. [url=https://unoda-web.s3-accelerate.amazonaws.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06... Trade Treaty text - see article 6.3[/url]

However, the weasel of foreign affairs says that in ratifying the treaty, Canada will violate its spirit and keep selling to major human rights violators including Saudi Arabia. [url=http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/canada-to-join-global-arms-... to join arms trade treaty, but will not raise export controls[/url]

Is this total hypocrisy? Yes. Does it make the Arms Trade Treaty worthless? I'd say it opens the door for campaigners to make arms sales to specific countries an issue more than they're managing to do at the moment. It opens the door to calls fro a stronger treaty. 

One problem with the Treaty id the top arms exporters (USA, Russia etc) are not on board. But I hope that more countries signing on would help move towards more transparency. Maybe I'm too optimistic, but I tend to think something is better than nothing at all. 

Re Canadian arms sales to USA - this might be a great campaign to jump on. It means in effect a campaign to end the 156 Defence Production Sharing Agreement, which means (to cite Ken Epps of Project Ploughshares):

Quote:
There is a free-trade situation between Canada and the U.S. under the Defence Production Sharing Agreement. It has been in place since the late 1950s, and it sets up a special arrangement where military goods shipped between the U.S. and Canada are not required to go through the same system as everything else exported by the U.S. and do not require export permits by the Canadian government. So although the government itself mentions that the U.S. is by far and away the largest trade partner in military goods, it doesn't have an exact figure.

[url=https://www.opencanada.org/features/murky-world-canadas-arms-manufacturi... murky world of Canada’s arms manufacturing[/url]

Anyway, thanks for the valuable overview you've posted!

bekayne

voice of the damned wrote:

And I think the only place I ever heard that CANDU reactors were instrumental in India's nuclear program was in my Grade 10 Social Studies textbook, where that fact was put into the mouth of a fictional American liberal, disillusioned of his image of the northern Peaceable Kingdom. I'm pretty sure I've never heard that fact mentioned anywhere else, without searching it out. (I don't doubt that these facts ARE mentioned elsewhere, but with such infrequency that a relatively well-informed person can go his whole life without hearing it.)

I remember a feature article in MacLean's back in the 1970s before they became a weekly.

Paladin1

Our Prime Minister calls himself a feminist yet he allows the sale of weapons to a country reknown for human rights abuse and brutal treatment of women.

Furthermore we know (in the form of an email from the US Secratary of State) that Saudi Arabia is secretly supporting ISIS and weapons and munitions from SA find themselves inthe hands of ISIS who are even more brutal to women.

 

Canada's back?

swallow

For sure. On arms sales to dictatorships, the Liberals are at least as bad as the Conservatives. 

Glenl

I wish we would at least stop buying their oil, we're kinda financing the purchases as well as being the supplier.

ikosmos ikosmos's picture

Yabbut Liberal weapons are "nicer" than those nasty, mean Conservative weapons and military supplies.

So there.

Wink

NDPP

Saudi Arabia Appears To Be Deploying Canadian-Made Armoured Vehicles Against Its Own Citizens

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/saudi-arabia-appears-to-be...

"Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland's department says she is 'deeply concerned'..."

WWWTT

Ya and when the Saudi military called the Canadian government to express concerns about our military machines of horror don't meet their specs I'm sure the Canadian government told them that they're "deeply concerned ".   Deeply concerned is code for " I can't wait till this blows over and you go the fuck away"

SeekingAPolitic...

NDPP wrote:

Saudi Arabia Appears To Be Deploying Canadian-Made Armoured Vehicles Against Its Own Citizens

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/saudi-arabia-appears-to-be...

"Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland's department says she is 'deeply concerned'..."

To me the meat in this sandwitch is the fact their restistance (peaceful or violent) to Saudi government in certain parts of the country(Shia) is happening.  So lets recap.

1.  There are examples of the local shia population not getting with the program.

2. Fighting a war agaisnt yemen.

3. Paymaster to many arab causes and heavy spender on leading the isolanstion of Qatar.

4. Fighting a cold war with Iran for control of the middle east.

All of these on back of the primitive but oil rich economy.  Plus I read that social programs and direct price controls on oil products are being dismantled in late 2017 and early 2018.  But I read that some of the cuts will be curtailed so the general does not do something radical.  The saudi state is playing hegemonic games that its economy can not meet.

My respect for the someparts of the media has increased, more news on the middle east and less gossip who is wearing a wig or who got a boob job.  This cold war between Iran and Saudis needs more time.

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

Sunni vs. Shia.  I'm shocked.

Can Muslims practice Islamophobia?  Or would it technically be "some-slightly-different-version-of-Islam-ophobia"?

cco

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Can Muslims practice Islamophobia?  Or would it technically be "some-slightly-different-version-of-Islam-ophobia"?

Sure. Just ask Maajid Nawaz.

I'm quite (darkly) amused at the sudden Liberal "deep concern". The public beheadings and so forth in Saudi Arabia were all well and good; how could we have known they'd use our weapons to do something to shocking as violate human rights? After all, they were just "jeeps". And the cabinet is gender-balanced, so arming the Saudis has to be feminist, right?

voice of the damned

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Sunni vs. Shia.  I'm shocked.

Can Muslims practice Islamophobia?  Or would it technically be "some-slightly-different-version-of-Islam-ophobia"?

Well, if a devout Sunni hates Shiites, for example, it's not because he thinks the Shiites are Islamic; it's because he thinks that they are NON-Islamic, but falsely claiming to be Islamic. 

So, no, I wouldn't call it Islamophobia, since the Sunni in question is motivated by his own love for Islam as he understands it. It is, of course, bigotry against a particular religion, and as such, morally no better than per se Islamphobia, especially if it results in violence against Shiites.  

NDPP

Ottawa Ready To Review Saudi Arms Deals Amid Crackdown (and vid)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/saudi-arms-deal-canada-shia-1.4227018

"The government has expressed its concerns to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia that its internal security operations be conducted in a manner consistent with international human rights law..."

kropotkin1951 kropotkin1951's picture

Mr. Magoo wrote:

Sunni vs. Shia.  I'm shocked.

Can Muslims practice Islamophobia?  Or would it technically be "some-slightly-different-version-of-Islam-ophobia"?

Religion is usually deadly when intermixed with class and ethnic divides.  

NDPP

Profit Over Lives? Canada Checks Claims Saudi Used Canadian-Made Arms Against Civilians

https://youtu.be/WEE3ZRd8vTg

"Canadian human rights activists are calling on the government to review a multi-billion dollar arms deal with Saudi Arabia."

chrystia.freeland@parl.gc.ca

josh
NDPP

"I don't think we should be undertaking arms sales with a country that is engaged in major human rights violations." - Irwin Cotler

Unless it's Israel of course...

NDPP

Canadian Govt Dilemma on Saudi Arms Deal - 'Awful Lot of Money vs Risk of Rights Violations (and vid)

https://on.rt.com/8jds

"If there is reasonable risk arms sold by Canada could be used in human rights abuses, it shouldn't proceed with the deal, says Thomas Woodley President of Canadians for Justice and Peace in the Middle East (CJPME)..."

josh

NDPP wrote:

"I don't think we should be undertaking arms sales with a country that is engaged in major human rights violations." - Irwin Cotler

Unless it's Israel of course...

True.

WWWTT

NDPP wrote:

Unless it's Israel of course...

Oh and the US! Actually if it's the US, lets go out of our way to ask the US how we can promote and help the human rights violations! Because that's what Canada does, promote human rights violations!

Paladin1

Problem solved?

Cedit:Beaverton

 

SeekingAPolitic...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-04/shocking-footage-saudi-siege-ag...

I was not sure about the some  sources used create this article.  But its news and you decide if want believe it.  In contrast CNN running stories how SA is opening private beaches for westerners.  But CNN is not totally inempt.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/21/middleeast/yemen-malnutrition-cholera-cris...

SeekingAPolitic...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/saudi-arabia-siege-t...

From the UK, it shows pictures in SA and Syria of town being destroyed for comparisan images.--- purportedly. 

Mr. Magoo Mr. Magoo's picture

So is this actually a case of "State vs. unarmed citizens"? 

Or is it more like "militant (state) sect vs. militant (minority) sect"?  What, specifically, are the citizens fighting for?

NDPP

Montreal Professor Renews Legal Effort to Block Canadian Combat Vehicle Exports To Saudi Arabia

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/montreal-professor-renews-...

"Daniel Turp, a University of Montreal professor who took the Trudeau government to court last year, has written to Foreign Affairs Minister Chrystia Freeland saying he will forge ahead with a renewed effort to block combat vehicle exports to Saudi Arabia unless she takes action..."

chrystia.freeland@parl.gc.ca

Paladin1

Is this shit really a surprise? What do people think armored vehicles and weapons are used for in the middle east?

 

Sean in Ottawa

Paladin1 wrote:

Is this shit really a surprise? What do people think armored vehicles and weapons are used for in the middle east?

 

Can we take that statement and modify it to be about guns in cities and gun violence generally when it comes to automatice weapons and mass shootings?

Isn't that really what they are made for?

Just asking.

NDPP

'They Use Tanks Against Civilians' 

Hey Look! Canada's Arms Hard At Work 'Renovating' Awamiyah For Saudi Arabia...

https://youtu.be/sHl1AjDZnQU

"More districts of a small Shia town of Awamiyah in Saudi Arabia have been reduced to rubble by government forces....Thanks in no small part, to Western partners. Canadian military vehicles are reportedly at the forefront of these Saudi 'renovators'.

Remind me...What did you think would happen when you sold billions of dollars of arms to one of the most repressive regimes on earth?

Profits of course..."

Paladin1

Sean in Ottawa wrote:

Paladin1 wrote:

Is this shit really a surprise? What do people think armored vehicles and weapons are used for in the middle east?

 

Can we take that statement and modify it to be about guns in cities and gun violence generally when it comes to automatice weapons and mass shootings?

Isn't that really what they are made for?

Just asking.

Of course! Well maybe not automatic weapons because they don't make up a large percentage of firearms used in hommicide.  I think there's been about 1 used in a hommicide in Canada? But for sure I'm on board. Guns in Chicago are banned and that's working well.  I'm on board, ban guns in cities (and towns over 20'000).