Canadians send message to G20 in recent Toronto violence
This seems timely but its nice to see Canadians telling off the G20 a little more directly ...
Especially given that merely talking about violence in protesting is banned/censored on this forum, how does the group here feel about whats happening without their input?
Given the failure of your style of left politics the past 30-40 years is anyone suprised or less then happy about the events in Toronto?
Police in riot gear and protesters continued to clash Saturday evening following a massive anti-G20 protest march through downtown Toronto in which at least three police vehicles were set ablaze, store and bank windows smashed, and much of the area put under security lockdowns.
Shortly before 8 p.m., a police vehicle that had been damaged earlier in the day on Queen Street, just east of Spadina, was torched. Police in riot gear descended on the burning wreckage to push people back.
Police cruisers were torched earlier at the corner of King and Bay streets in the heart of the city's financial district, sending plumes of black smoke into the air. At one point, as one vehicle burned, protesters surrounded police officers who were trying to protect the car, CBC reporter Amber Hildebrandt reported on Twitter.
The size of the protest crowd was estimated to be as high as 10,000. Witnesses said tear gas had been used in the area around the provincial legislature at College and University, but police denied any had been used in the city.
Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/06/26/g20-saturday-protests.html#ixz...
Comments
The police always get Sparky's benefit of the doubt but not any marginalized or oppressed people. There is no doubt in Sparky's mind that the infamous black bloc is guilty. It doesn't matter that no such group actually exits we know they are evil and anarchists. You can tell from their clothes. The message is clear that whoever they are they should be arrested and if they get beaten tough luck or is that tough love.
The police always get Sparky's benefit of the doubt but not any marginalized or oppressed people. There is no doubt in Sparky's mind that the infamous black bloc is guilty. It doesn't matter that no such group actually exits we know they are evil and anarchists. You can tell from their clothes. The message is clear that whoever they are they should be arrested and if they get beaten tough luck or is that tough love.
I consider myself an anarchist. I've read Kropotkin. I've read Bakunin. I've read books on the Iroquois Federation. I've also read books on the history of counter-insurgency and psychological warfare.
As I understand, anarchists have traditionally tried to PROTECT protesters from the police during demonstrations. The modern black bloc -- or agents of state pretending to be participants in said tactic -- do the oppisite. They commit acts of petty vandalism then run off leaving unprotected protesters in the sites of the police. Moreover, we now have several documented instances of police dressing up as "black blockers" and engaging in precisely the same behavior. If someone here uses the black bloc tactic I'd be very curious to hear an expalanation as to why, if it is such a brilliant scheme, that the POLICE THEMSELVES have been caught engaging in it.
So far as I'm concerned, the only people denigrating anarchists as "evil" or, better said, stupid and nihilstic, are the bloc themselves (and their de-facto partners in the media and intelligence forces, who use their acts as a demonstration both of the necessity of miliarized police, and of the "chaotic" nature of anarchism). They are a perfect counterpart/justification for the escalating police state. The tactic is clearly counter-productive and should be condemned by all concerned. I'm all for breaking the law to get a point across or to create a revolutionary situation, but there are far more creative ways of doing so.
I love this shot where he's wearing two different shoes. They're saying the "combat boot" on the right foot proves he's a cop...
The Toronto G20 Riot Fraud: Undercover Police engaged in Purposeful Provocation At Tax Payers' Expense
The cops have effectively killed whatever good PR they had with citizens.
I love this shot where he's wearing two different shoes. They're saying the "combat boot" on the right foot proves he's a cop...
The Toronto G20 Riot Fraud: Undercover Police engaged in Purposeful Provocation At Tax Payers' Expense
No he is not wearing different shoes, but different socks. You know cuz thats what anarchists do. Hey i am doing it right now. They police would not deny that they had their officers mixed in with the crowds. The police have already said their members were in there. Care to continue.?
Anyone who wishes to answer thorin's question can do so in a new thread, or an existing one.
Closing for length.
Troll.
Troll.
Even worse...
It is a thread proliferator!
Hahahaha. Infiltrator. He might be an agent of the state.
Hahahaha. Infiltrator. He might be an agent of the state.
*Sigh*
Yes, I waited 5 years to make this post, boy was it worth it.
Noone has anything serious to add to this? oh well, should have guessed.
Perhaps another 5 years and you may be ready.
Perhaps another 5 years and you may be ready.
In another 5 years the left will be even more irrelevant and inequality will be even worse.
Just hope whomever has the foresight to truly oppose conservatives have your best interests in mind.
What to say? Go back to watching CP24...
Re Alexander. How can someone have an account for over 5 years and never post, and then the very first post gets called out as a troll? Who would keep an account for that long, or even remember it? And why would this be the very first thing to comment on after 5 years, instead of maybe Katrina, Iraq, Afghanistan, recession, Harper's election, Harper re-election, Dion, Ignatieff, war in Gaza, war in Gaza 2, Obama, etc... Doesn't make sense
What to say? Go back to watching CP24...
Whats CP24?
Re Alexander. How can someone have an account for over 5 years and never post, and then the very first post gets called out as a troll? Who would keep an account for that long, or even remember it? And why would this be the very first thing to comment on after 5 years, instead of maybe Katrina, Iraq, Afghanistan, recession, Harper's election, Harper re-election, Dion, Ignatieff, war in Gaza, war in Gaza 2, Obama, etc... Doesn't make sense
This is part of the problem *L*
You cant phathom how its possible, no doubt you may even think theres some conspiracy behind it.
Actually I signed up for this account under an old email address 5 years ago, recently dug through it, found the email response and decided to login.
But please, dont let the facts ruin anything.
Good question. His very first post was an attack on how the left, yeah, us with no power, are really to blame for the inquality in society.
Good question. His very first post was an attack on how the left, yeah, us with no power, are really to blame for the inquality in society.
Dont put words in my mouth.
Whos side do you think I am on? (smartass reply ready!)
Im a leftie thats started to think we have exhausted our avenues.
We have gained almost nothing in the past 30-40 years, someone mentioned LGBT rights and thats true, so there are some victories, but the big ones of equality and justice are worse today then during the great depression and rather then talk about it we do essentially nothing.
Europe has protests that shut down who cities, we cant even look at a few cop cars burning without talkign about "civilized societ" *L*
We (the left) have failed at nearly everything, for decades, it breaks my heart and its not enough that the conservatives have taken over, they want to force us to love them too and as long as you do nothing they will put you farther down on their hit list.
Thats what the left has done, avoided the subject, over and over, the fact is the strikers of the great depression would be ashamed of us, they died for a better society and here we are, more than willing to hand over our lives and our childrens lives to corporations.
Anyway, some will be indifferent, as youve already shown, some will care but wont have the courage to DO something (like me most of the time) and some of you will just be content to fade from relevence even more, maybe when your a grandparent and you see the shitty life your grand child will have you will have wished you did everything in your power to change the system.
The point is that despite a slight left swing after the Bush era we are as conservative a country as we have been since Mulroney and whatever we are doing, we arent being effective.
We should be shutting down our system, using every tool at our disposal.
Good question. His very first post was an attack on how the left, yeah, us with no power, are really to blame for the inquality in society.
Dont put words in my mouth.
Whos side do you think I am on? (smartass reply ready!)
Im a leftie thats started to think we have exhausted our avenues.
We have gained almost nothing in the past 30-40 years, someone mentioned LGBT rights and thats true, so there are some victories, but the big ones of equality and justice are worse today then during the great depression and rather then talk about it we do essentially nothing.
Europe has protests that shut down who cities, we cant even look at a few cop cars burning without talkign about "civilized societ" *L*
We (the left) have failed at nearly everything, for decades, it breaks my heart and its not enough that the conservatives have taken over, they want to force us to love them too and as long as you do nothing they will put you farther down on their hit list.
Thats what the left has done, avoided the subject, over and over, the fact is the strikers of the great depression would be ashamed of us, they died for a better society and here we are, more than willing to hand over our lives and our childrens lives to corporations.
Anyway, some will be indifferent, as youve already shown, some will care but wont have the courage to DO something (like me most of the time) and some of you will just be content to fade from relevence even more, maybe when your a grandparent and you see the shitty life your grand child will have you will have wished you did everything in your power to change the system.
The point is that despite a slight left swing after the Bush era we are as conservative a country as we have been since Mulroney and whatever we are doing, we arent being effective.
We should be shutting down our system, using every tool at our disposal.
Read this thread.
Shutting down the system!
I work 6 days a week and still dont make enough to save a dime, I just want to smoke weed and get drunk and rest on sunday so i can do it all over again in order to give my bank and student loan agency a blowjob.
Shutting down the system!
I work 6 days a week and still dont make enough to save a dime, I just want to smoke weed and get drunk and rest on sunday so i can do it all over again in order to give my bank and student loan agency a blowjob.
We should be shutting it down for the better of all of us, including those that cant fight back ...
You know first hand where things are at and its not good, we deserve better!
Well, I am not certain if Alexander is a troll as has been suggested, or a thread proliferator... but I see at least a few tell-tale signs of being a drama queen.
But let me start (as a gay male) by personally thanking Alexander for making it clear that LGBT rights are not, in his eyes at least, one of "big ones of equality and justice". Thanks, really appreciate that, makes me feel all warm inside... I do wonder though, given the broad time frame you mention, that 30-40 years, does that mean that the advances in reference to reproductive freedom and choice since, oh about 1970 were not one of the big ones of equality and justice? Or that forcing our official representatives to face and attempt to redress the unjust internment of suspect classes of people (well, races actually) during the second world war is not one of the big ones of equality and justice? Or that the first steps in forcing our official representatives to face the unjust legacy of the residential school system is not one of the big ones of equality and justice? Or that any of the Charter challenges (and victories) that have addressed equality questions are not one of the big ones of equality and justice? Damn Alexander, exactly what are these "big ones"?
Alexander you are quite right, Europe has seen a lot more smashy smashy protests in the street over any number of issues. Smashy smashy is very dramatic. It has outstanding visuals. It gets people talking. Incremental changes are not dramatic, they seldom if ever provide even marginally interesting visuals. They are less likely to get people talking. I would question, though, if smashy smashy protests have produced results that somehow dwarf what has been achieved by the really "lacking in visuals" incrementalists of our watered-down left? I think not. If your criticism of the incremental leftists here in Canada was that they hadn't achieved enough I would be in full agreement with you, anything short of fully equality and justice is not enough... but your criticism seems to be that they have been dramatic enough, that they haven't provided enough adrenalin for a smashy smashy junkie... and to that I would respond that keeping adrenalin junkies and drama queens happy is not the responsibility of progressives. Keeping them happy is the responsibility of entertainers.
Well, I am not certain if Alexander is a troll as has been suggested, or a thread proliferator... but I see at least a few tell-tale signs of being a drama queen.
But let me start (as a gay male) by personally thanking Alexander for making it clear that LGBT rights are not, in his eyes at least, one of "big ones of equality and justice". Thanks, really appreciate that, makes me feel all warm inside
You totally took what I said the wrong way here, but I suspect you were looking for something anyway.
LGBT rights are big too, should I have listed all the big issues including immigrant rights, minority rights etc then said "but the big rights of X (not to be seem as the only big rights but as part of a bigger list of important rights) ...".
You insult me by deliberately assuming something so stupid and by insinuating that I dont see LGBT rights as "big".
Talk about trolling!
See above, be ashamed of yourself.
Incremental change? *L*
Any slower and we will be in full on fascism whispering about how we "stuck it to the man" because we stole an extra biscuit for ourselves *L*
But by all means lets talk about the progress thats been made the past 30-40 years, worker rights? union rights? living standards? healthcare? education?
And seriously though, snap out of it, you dont even know if im gay *L* so smarten up eh.
Its obvious that people here are looking for a target, which really, lets dance :)
But what is it about violence that has so many people unwilling to consider it or so defensive that they are willing to fabricate absolute nonsense to give themselves a reason to attack? (like our last poster bagkitty).
From the philosophical masturabatory idea of "would you push a button, killing one person to save 100" to the fact that the middle class is dying, deep integration is lowering our standards, worker rights have gone nowhere, theres no money left for peoples retirement, homelessness is high, etc etc and we cant seem to tackle any of these things ...
An additional question should be why is the left so ineffective?
Because the left has neither a common voice nor a common vision, as rabble, and this thread, is ample evidence.
Alexander, you fault the left for having "gained almost nothing in the past 30-40 years" in the areas of equality and justice.
I think that it's important that we be able to define what success looks like. 30 years ago, if you had told me that we could cut poverty amongst seniors by more than half, that we could cut the number of people jailed in Canada for non-payment of fines completely, I would have said that that would be a good start. We've done both of those things (Old Age Security and the BC Motor Vehicles Act Reference to the Supreme Court of Canada, respectively). Let's take stock of our successes and define our goals clearly.
Because the left has neither a common voice nor a common vision, as rabble, and this thread, is ample evidence.
True, but I dont think thats the only reason.
If we took a vote most people here would probably (or so it seems) say that violence is never necessary, now first year philosophy students realize thats ridiculous and the left is made up of many (almost all) intellectuals, so I also suspect that there are people reading this thread that wont respond because they know their view would be logical, well thought out and considered harsh.
Under the banner of the left we have tried many things, protests of course, setting up groups, foundations etc, coops, work in political parties, work in business even but none of the current approaches have worked.
Maybe theres an argument that a focus on one thing would work, like if we all could stuck to our guns and have a real general strike, I think that could work too, but its not realistic, maybe one day it can be.
Whereas violence can have a maximum impact with a minimal number of people.
I was watching some CBC today about the Toronto protest and one commentator asked what the protesters want and the reporter said something along the lines of "they see a lot of inequality and injustice and see this as an avenue to be heard" and it is. I see many on the left call palestinian fighters, "freedom fighters" but when it comes to our own back yards we cant be bothered, whether some ethically would never be violent, even to save themselves and others that are just confused or lazy.
If we cant get a general strike to shut down a city until living standards are fixed or raised, then what other ways can we effectively make change? like I said, we have tried lots of things over a long period of time and its only gotten worse for the majority of us.
Psssst... this strike/demo/movement is going nowhere... I know where we can get some firearms...
Alexander, you fault the left for having "gained almost nothing in the past 30-40 years" in the areas of equality and justice.
I think that it's important that we be able to define what success looks like. 30 years ago, if you had told me that we could cut poverty amongst seniors by more than half, that we could cut the number of people jailed in Canada for non-payment of fines completely, I would have said that that would be a good start. We've done both of those things (Old Age Security and the BC Motor Vehicles Act Reference to the Supreme Court of Canada, respectively). Let's take stock of our successes and define our goals clearly.
I think thats fair, I wonder if your not looking a bit too far into the past but we know we can say things like our maximum age limit is getting higher, that medicine advances are amazing and helping, that we have a near 100% literacy rate, with the internet we have better access to government and rules etc.
I think the world is too complex to just say its all gone to shit, we dont worry about our employers chaining us into our work place, granted we do allow companies to do that to people overseas but anyway, I hear you.
Even with the silver lining, I still think we have a dark cloud over our heads, agree?
Okay Alexander, I am beginning to understand what you are saying, and to a point, I agree with it. We have made significant gains in some ares and now we find ourselves having to fight for them all over again (for the most part)
The problem is, your OP was full of condemnation for the left, and since we are part of the left, it can be taken personally and as an attack. (Also, can you stop with the low level attacks on bagkitty - we are a fiercely loyal group here)
So how do you see the left becoming a more cohesive and legit force for change? What can we do in your view to achieve any real true long term change? Someone suggested we become more like the right (I do not endorse this view). I would be interested in what your suggestions are.
Right on, bagkitty. Thanks for that outstanding post!
I think demos against G8/G20 are absolutely necessary to show dissatisfaction with their policies, but also progressive meovements need to be supported as well as progressive political parties. I personally can not condone violence at demos, though. I'll always believe violence at these demos are set up by police infiltrators in the crowd unless someone can prove otherwise - it's clear to me that government thugs want to justify their padded expenses for security and weapons, and televised images of police cars burning and windows being smashed make great television for these purposes. I tend to be cynical when it comes to the police and government spending on security at these events.
Okay Alexander, I am beginning to understand what you are saying, and to a point, I agree with it. We have made significant gains in some ares and now we find ourselves having to fight for them all over again (for the most part)
The problem is, your OP was full of condemnation for the left, and since we are part of the left, it can be taken personally and as an attack. (Also, can you stop with the low level attacks on bagkitty - we are a fiercely loyal group here)
Yup, pretty frustrating ...
Im just tacking my list of greivances on the cathedral door, I want better.
I am done talking about bagkitty, I just assume he was already worked up and wanted to insult me over something, had nothing of substance and made the ridiculous assertion he did.
Not sure what points on the right could work but I dont think it hurts to be more aggressive.
I think we need to be more aggressive in debates for one. The liberal spectrum believes that everyone deserves to be heard, this in theory sounds nice, in reality it becomes a farce.
I will use the example of creationism v.s. evolution, on the right they claim the left is working to silence their voices, that they deserve equal time etc and they are getting it! we shouldnt allow it, in this example one side is dealing with facts and reality and the other side is stupid conservatives, we have ever right to stand up and tell them to shut the hell up and leave the room because they are wrong, granted things have gotten so bad in this respect that a bunch of better minded people have come forward, like dawkins, hitchens etc, but this is one example.
I could give some other examples but let me cut to the chase, our system is designed to be anti-left leaning, I just dont see a good argument for how we can be effective in this country without a severe overhaul, maybe even the complete removal of capitalism.
I would like to see protests like we have in Europe, shut the whole damn citydown and when they send in the cops with tear gas, spend the next 4 nights fighting with them until the powers that be, quietly reverse their oppressive measures, thats not too hard to do, but its apparently impossible for us here to muster.
To change that we have to get more aggressive, REFUSE to accept our lot and (and this is a big one) we need to stop thinking only as individuals and start thinking more collectively.
Maybe we should consider making regular violent protest part of our strategy, get fed up farmers to help and spray pig manure on the police station entrance, sneak into parliament and obstruct their votes, more pies in the face of politicians and businesses people, set fire to a few asshole corporate locations, regularly vandalize gas guzzling vehicles, find out where BP employees work and dump oil on them, punch your boss in the face *LOL*
Stop rolling over, make change, now! we cant wait, we should be rushing the streets and we wont and itll get worse and it will be our fault for not taking the necessary steps.
Continuing the discussion from here.
What a sham this sign carrying demonstration is. First we have a media concentrating on black bloc instead of issues …then we have a PM calling them thugs when the real thugs are on the other side of the fence.
We have the cops whining when the only blood drawn thus far is that of protesters. We have decoy cop cars strewn out to keep vandals busy and media in frenzy. Public sucking it all up like ice caps and a bloc that thinks they have been successful. What a waste of time, money etc. Obviously things aren’t to bad in Canada to reverse the entire tactic .
The silver lining is the protesters did get bang for there buck…3-10 thousand souls will work for 25 years min. pay a total of at least a billion plus in taxs..so I guess you can say they paid for this waste and the ork salary and all their weaponry. The message Canadians are sending is “ we are whimpy media controlled thugs” cause the media says so. The first step is to have a left wing national media, until then protesters will always be weakened by media coverage.
Buddy, if you actually think this accomplished anything except to convince the "average" Canadian that the protesters don't have any valid concerns I can make you a deal in some swampland in Florida. (After all, there's oil in that there land.)
The actions of the Black Bloc have seriously damaged the credibility of the legitimate protesters.
Why Dave Coles is a legend.
I don't know if anyone has posted this terrifying story yet:
http://toronto.mediacoop.ca/story/%E2%80%9Ci-woke-gun-pointed-me%E2%80%9...
You'd think for $2 billion the police could afford to have a few phone books on hand in order to know whose door they were breaking down.
The actions of the Black Bloc have seriously damaged the credibility of the legitimate protesters.
I don't think so. Even TO Police Chief Bill Blair was careful to point out 'the legitimate protesters like the labour unions that worked with us' and the 'Black Block criminals'. This theme and variation was tirelessly repeated in all the coverage I saw.
I got a good look through binoculars at the ELINT plane that's been circling downtown Toronto. It's not a US C-130 Herc at all, but rather a Canadian Forces CP-140 Aurora.
It was orbiting downtown this this morning but it's now orbiting the 401-409 route to Pearson airport.
Some form of violence is often an essential part of social change, as the stutus quo rarely rolls over without a fight, and they have a legal monopoly on violence that they don't mind using when they feel threatened. The difference between now and the radical confrontations of bygone eras is that these days most people aren't radicals.
When you have a political culture that is generally agreed on the necessity of violence in their struggle, as you did in the dirty thirties, then you can do what needs to be done without alienating your allies. If, like today, you don't have that, then trying to jump into this, even when it's necessary (though the G20 protests wouldn't qualify) only makes you the enemy of those who share your views but believe in non-violent change. You can't just start busting shit up because you've decided it needs to happen. You have to be persuasive and create a consensus that this is necessary within a movement. If you can't do this, then you will be marginalised, and maybe it's because your argument just isn't that good.
You could say that this is what you're trying to do here, but insults and dismissals of past struggles are not the way to go about it.
Well said Jacob Two-Two, my post no longer needed.
The actions of the Black Bloc have seriously damaged the credibility of the legitimate protesters.
I don't think so. Even TO Police Chief Bill Blair was careful to point out 'the legitimate protesters like the labour unions that worked with us' and the 'Black Block criminals'. This theme and variation was tirelessly repeated in all the coverage I saw.
And you really think that message registered with Joe Average?
The black bloc can go fuck themselves. They HIJACKED the march yesterday and showed zero RESPECT for the rest of the demonstrators. They should be shunned from protests because they act like a bunch of fascist THUGS. RESPECT means not engaging in actions that endanger other people - other protesters and the people in the businesses where they smashed the windows. It means not using the demo as a human shield. It means not engaging in actions which undermine the message of the march without any consultation. The fact that these little brats chant "this is what democracy looks like" while they undermine the movement is disgusting. They wouldn't know democracy if it hit them over the head with one of their little weapons. Thanks to the black bloc, the cops got their photo op, the media found an excuse to ignore the issues, and a bunch of innocent people got arrested. Make no mistake - the police repression has been outrageous. The corporate media always sucks. But the black bloc helped make it worse. They are saboteurs plain and simple.
I don't know what news paper you're reading that's giving a comprehensive account of all our issues thanks to the media attention from the violence. Can you show me some of the articles?
I haven't seen any. That was my point. We're not seeing that now; and we wouldn't be seeing that from the MSM even if yesterday's protest had been entirely polite and civil. The MSM's simply not interested in doing that, regardless of how we conduct ourselves.
Alexander, if no progress had been made in the last 30-40 years, we'd still be having raids on bathhouses.
I don't think that quite captures the phenomenon we're seeing.
The difference between now and then is that certain police agents (conscious or unconscious) are now treated with kid gloves, or even turned into heroes, by organizations and organizers that seem afraid to lay down the law and enforce discipline. "Diversity of tactics" never existed in the workers' struggles of the 30s, and I can testify that it has no place in our struggles today. We decide the tactics, and everyone follows the game plan.
In other words, a difference between now and then is the difference between mass struggle and individual faux heroics.
Why Dave Coles is a legend.
Brilliant - thank you Catchfire! Now that's what I was just talking about.
Important article on this subject:
Thoughts on a Neglected Category of Social Movement Participant: The Agent Provocateur and the Informant
http://web.mit.edu/gtmarx/www/neglected.html
One wonders why if terrorism, mindless vandalism and general violence were so effective in promoting leftist causes that the Pinkertons, the FBI, the CIA and other forces of unfreedom throughout modern history have constantly sponsored and/or encouraged these types of activities agmonst leftist and labor groups.
Ironically, it is precisely the tactics that the OP endorses that have reduced the power of the left for well over a century. From the propaganda of the deed to COINTELPRO to Gladio, provocateured and false flag violence have been a major factor in neutralizing progressive causes and strengthening the forces of oppression.
If Alex is sincere in his beliefs I encourage him to read that article in full.
I haven't seen any. That was my point. We're not seeing that now; and we wouldn't be seeing that from the MSM even if yesterday's protest had been entirely polite and civil. The MSM's simply not interested in doing that, regardless of how we conduct ourselves.
We got your point, Freedom. But by highlighting the assholes, the MSM very deliberately tries to prevent the movement from growing and recruiting.
So why not condemn the window-smashing and arson, and suggest better ways for progressive organizations to get their message out without relying on the MSM?
Which chapter of lefties to these violent protesters hold membership cards in anyway? Perhaps the violence is just a natural reaction to a global capitalist system that isn't working very well. It's either that or they are gladio provocateurs paid to raise hell in prodding sheeple everywhere to demand more security. [sounds of bleeting in the distance]
Which chapter of lefties to these violent protesters hold membership cards in anyway? Perhaps the violence is just a natural reaction to a global capitalist system that isn't working very well. It's either that or they are gladio provocateurs paid to raise hell so that sheeple demand more security.
Or perhaps there is no noble thought or ulterior motive. Maybe their entire motivation is that "It's fun to smash and burn things so lets do in now. That way people will think we're protesting the system instead of being simple thugs."
I haven't seen any. That was my point. We're not seeing that now; and we wouldn't be seeing that from the MSM even if yesterday's protest had been entirely polite and civil. The MSM's simply not interested in doing that, regardless of how we conduct ourselves.
We got your point, Freedom.
Actually, I was responding to SparkyOne, who didn't get my point. She thought I was saying that yesterday's property destruction had led to positive media coverage, which wasn't what I was trying to say at all.
Dave Coles, well done.
Which chapter of lefties to these violent protesters hold membership cards in anyway? Perhaps the violence is just a natural reaction to a global capitalist system that isn't working very well. It's either that or they are gladio provocateurs paid to raise hell so that sheeple demand more security.
Or perhaps there is no noble thought or ulterior motive. Maybe their entire motivation is that "It's fun to smash and burn things so lets do in now. That way people will think we're protesting the system instead of being simple thugs."
Yes, it's not like globalizers have ever had problems with protests to their agendas wherever they've met before behind closed doors in some really obscure and remote locations around the world. According to you it's just another good excuse for pillaging and sacking and defiling private property as far as young and inexperienced people are concerned etcetera.
What globalizers want to do is have us demand more security. That was the objective of stay behind gladios in post-WW II Europe. They desire to create conditions whereby we demand that they make us to hang on high hooks, and that we insist that they divvy us up into lamb cutlets. It's easier for them that way.
Listening to Bill Moyers podcast, "Populism, Social Change and the World", seems to fit with what we are talking about here. http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/podcasts/index.html
In my opinion, calling people sheeple and battery chickens doesn't really help to grow the movement much. We sheeple don't like it. People are asking me where they can go for a different perspective on this. I'd like to send them here.
In my opinion, calling people sheeple and battery chickens doesn't really help to grow the movement much. We sheeple don't like it. People are asking me where they can go for a different perspective on this. I'd like to send them here.
Not all babblers consider ordinary people looking for answers to be: (a) targets for bashing if they don't support the correct political party; or (b) impotent victims of the "mainstream" media who are too chronically stupid to figure things out for themselves, given the opportunity to think and exchange with others.
In short, please send those people here, but caution them not to take random comments too personally. You may also wish to explain how to use the "ignore" script.
Which chapter of lefties to these violent protesters hold membership cards in anyway? Perhaps the violence is just a natural reaction to a global capitalist system that isn't working very well. It's either that or they are gladio provocateurs paid to raise hell so that sheeple demand more security.
Or perhaps there is no noble thought or ulterior motive. Maybe their entire motivation is that "It's fun to smash and burn things so lets do in now. That way people will think we're protesting the system instead of being simple thugs."
Yes, it's not like globalizers have ever had problems with protests to their agendas wherever they've met before behind closed doors in some really obscure and remote locations around the world. According to you it's just another good excuse for pillaging and sacking and defiling private property as far as young and inexperienced people are concerned etcetera.
What globalizers want to do is have us demand more security. That was the objective of stay behind gladios in post-WW II Europe. They desire to create conditions whereby we demand that they make us to hang on high hooks, and that we insist that they divvy us up into lamb cutlets. It's easier for them that way.
So what exactly did the Black Bloc and the other useful idiots accomplish? Beyond convincing the rest of the world that all of the protesters were violent nutbars.
I haven't seen any. That was my point. We're not seeing that now; and we wouldn't be seeing that from the MSM even if yesterday's protest had been entirely polite and civil. The MSM's simply not interested in doing that, regardless of how we conduct ourselves.
We got your point, Freedom.
Actually, I was responding to SparkyOne, who didn't get my point. She thought I was saying that yesterday's property destruction had led to positive media coverage, which wasn't what I was trying to say at all.
I'm sorry if I misunderstood your post. It sounded like you were suggesting violence was okay because if it wasn't there then the little bit of attention that our issues got would have been lost.
So what exactly did the Black Bloc and the other useful idiots accomplish? Beyond convincing the rest of the world that all of the protesters were violent nutbars.
Did they even accomplish that? I know MSM coverage has been slanted, but even government and the authorities seem to be making the distinction between legitimate protest and the Black Bloc. Not saying nobody has been fooled, but it is good that people in the mainstream aren't just hearing about "violent protesters".
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Probably the thing the most important thing they accomplished is to teach the cops one more of their tricks to be prepared for, and practice crowd control. I can't imagine how they don't see that they are only helping the authorities. After all, the cops dress up the same and try to disrupt in exactly the same way.
In my opinion, calling people sheeple and battery chickens doesn't really help to grow the movement much.
Couldn't agree more, Ripple.
Very true. They will. However, that was not the situation for many protesters yesterday. When the groups that they were marching with got violent, it was usually away from the main demo. Where are the organizers then? Should they just march from their main line to control these people? No. The violence occurred when the groups broke off. In those circumstances it is not in any way shape or form advisable to put yourself in bodily or legal jeopardy to attempt to stop those people. It isn't your job. You don't need to throw fists (which is what it comes to). You don't need to fall on broken glass or risk burns. You don't need to be a hero. If the cops weren't responding and you confronted that person, barring the unlikely situation where everyone say everything and no one stepped in assuming that you were say, a plain clothes police officer attempting to make an arrest. Sure, hop right on in - be brave, be a hero. I'm sure you'd have done it, right?
After reviewing your post, I noticed a mild pattern
Not from what I read. The police took a very aggressive posture. They would rush the protest lines and make random arrests. If the protesters started fighting, they would get right in on that. Let's both be honest.
In the situations that occurred, as I have read (and you have only had second hand experience of Toronto G20 2010 as well) that is exactly what would have occurred. It is not advisable or wise to hop in. There wouldn't have been organized support. It. Would. Have. Been. A. Street. Brawl.
Again? That's pretty condenscending. You barely even have to read between the lines.
PB - for god's sake, when I say "you", I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about the organizers of these mass events. And when I said "your scenario", I meant, the scenario you outlined. I thought that was pretty clear. But if not, I apologize.
Secondly, I really honestly think you missed my entire point. I was not saying what people should have done yesterday and today in Toronto. I'm not there. What I was saying, in essence, that it's too late for this event. What I was describing to you was my opinion of the way such mobilizations ought to be (and have in the past on many occasions actually been) organized.
Tactics are decided in advance. Leaders are decided. Everyone follows orders. Marshalls are clearly identified, in contact with each other and with the leadership, and they take action when there's trouble. Not you, not me - the marshalls.
I hope that clarifies my comments.
ETA: Forgot to mention. Some protest organizers were interviewed in the days leading up to this weekend. When asked their attitude to violent demonstrators, they didn't reply. That's not leadership, and it's not good for the movement. And it's symptomatic of disorganization on all fronts.
http://watch.ctv.ca/news/latest/the-mayhem/#clip318869 4 MINUTES AND 45 SECONDS in to the video is one of my favs. A guy picks up a maniquin arm, hits it against a wall once then drops it and walks away yay rebellion! 5 minutes 29 seconds is a good one, the sign on the store forget G8 try G strings! Sexy dancers! Why are they smashing Pizza pizza windows? Yea yea corporate something or another but where is everyone going to go at 3 am when the bars close and they have the munchies? lol Watch the video, sure something to be proud of. It would be nice if the rest of the non violent marchers turned to the black block people and said get the fuck out of here you assholes. Stop giving them a bigger body of people to hide in.
SparkyOne, I couldn't agree more. My only caution is that when you call the Black Bloc rioters 'assholes', be careful you don't get yourself in trouble for disrespecting a police officer.
My hats off to the protesters- ranging from "anarchist" black bloc to those who thought they had a right to protest. As posted under media, yesterday CTV called it Anarchists One Police Zero and they are sticking by that call Sunday. Thats certainly what I, glued to the TV for the past 24 hours, saw. It doesn't help the police PR war that a CTV producer and later a cameraman were arrested and then a CTV news reporter was trapped inside the police lines with hundreds of peaceful protesters chanting: "Let Us Go" with no escape left them. The Black Bloc skilfully split off from the big CLC/OFL demo and took some control of downtown Toronto- the financial district,the outside of government offices, Varsity stadium, the hospital zone, Yorkville. The police claimed their job was to guard the fence and they didn't have enourgh resources to hold the city as well. Big score for the protestors. Any attempt to dismiss the boc as a handful of thugs was scoffed at by the media and Mayor Miller who stated there were hundreds, maybe up to 700, hard core activists aka "thugs". Throwing in over 600 arrests that gives about a thousand hard core activists aka "thugs" "criminals".. Then there were maybe another thousand who protested peaceably Sunday and got dumped on their head, as one young woman from Cleveland reprorted. The crowds at the detention centre were in their hundreds, peaceable and quite ready to take an arrest for the cause. Separately there were hundreds of Xstians praying and singing hymns who wanted to go to the fence ..
No reported dmage to people and damage to prpoerety was limited to the breaking of windows, graffiti, gutting a Starbucks, nothing that canbe called excessive or life-threatening given the circumstnces. Lots of agent provcetierus and planted dmage from the cops.
The police security forces were leaderless, outmanouvered and easily demoralzied . Protestors took this one handily
.
Wjen there are over 600 arrests either the hdard core peicked upa lot of support of the police fucked up badly.
Throwing a trash can through a coffee shop window may be illegal, but it is not violent. People who think they know what's good for everyone else might be horrified by vandalism, but this doesn't mean that we should conflate protests by activists as being equivalent to state-sponsored violence against, say, Afghans and Pakistanis in their own countries where women and children are killed by remote control drone attacks and other high tech weapons of terror. Protest is not violent in the way that people are in wars, which is basically organized murder by governments. And we shouldn't equate a few burned out cop cars with NATO sponsored terrorism in Europe where people have been killed by bombs and other false flag incidents during the cold war era. It's just not the same. Not close.
Throwing a trash can through a coffee shop window may be illegal, but it is not violent.
I disagree, and I don't think the comparison with war is even relevant. Violence is wrong - period, and it's particularly wrong if it is directed against innocent people (as some of those shop owners were).
I know if I lost a couple of thousand dollars replacing glass, cleaning, paying staff (if my business was big enough that I had any) and having to shut down my business for days just because some idiot got his vicarious jollies thinking he was smashing the state instead of my livelihood I'd be REALLY pissed. And I certainly wouldn't be too sympathetic to whatever message he or she was trying to get across.
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and none of that federal money is going to reimburse businesses for damage.
My hats off to the protesters- ranging from "anarchist" black bloc
There’s nothing remotely anarchistic about dressing up in black pajamas and breaking windows or throwing feces. The fact that most citizens now equate anarchism with soccer hooliganism has been a real PR coup for anarchists. Well done black bloc!
Actually there was a great deal of damage to people at the hands of the police – who were given a pretext to attack protesters by the actions of the black bloc, some or most of whom, I'm guessing, were themselves police or in their employ. Thankfully, in this case, no one was killed, however the same cannot be said of what occurred in Genoa. As Tod Fletcher notes in his article on the subject:
“By "provocation" is meant the action of an agent provocateur, on any scale: against a cop, or against a country. The purpose is to provide an attack that legitimizes an aggressive response, an attack that otherwise would not occur. When a cop dressed up as a black blocker throws a stone or Molotov cocktail at the police phalanx, he provides the pretext they wait for to rush and crush the crowd. "Fake terror" is a type of provocation which selects the innocent, defenseless public as the specific victim of the attack, to wreak maximum psychological damage on the population and render them as putty in the state's hands.”
People who think they know what's good for everyone else might be horrified by vandalism
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Marx once said that the “bourgeoise which looks complacently upon the wholesale massacre after the battle, is convulsed by horror at the destruction of brick and mortar”. So yes I think many people react with horror and outrage at petty vandalism. What horrifies me, however, is not the vandalism but the violence it invariably engenders toward peaceful protesters.
One can safely assume that many protesters who are brutalized by the police will think twice about protesting in the future; one can also assume that such violence will have a chilling effect on relatively apolitical people who might otherwise have considered protesting at some future date.
I don’t consider this a debate about morality but efficacy. The black bloc is clearly not effective as a protest tactic – hence the predilection for cops to dress up as black blockers. One might even argue, though there’s no evidence of such, that the bloc itself was dreamt up in some FBI office. There are certainly precedents.
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And we shouldn't equate a few burnt out cop cars with NATO sponsored terrorism in Europe where people have been killed by bombs and other false flag incidents during the cold war era. It's just not the same. Not close.
Clearly there is no similarity between breaking a window and setting off a bomb that kills dozens of people. The comparison arises due to the alleged, or presumed, false flag aspect. Moreover, one thing often leads to another. So for example, during the COINTELPRO era, the notorious FBI informant “Tommy the Traveler” would train students how to construct bombs and provide them with guns, bomb-making materials and other weapons. The students would then go out and blow up symbols of oppression. The police would then have a pretext to kill, arrest or otherwise neutralize said activists, as well as related groups. Tommy’s merely one example; Gary T. Marx’s study on the provocateur contains dozens of similar cases.
The bloc is a fairly mild case of provocateur-ish behavior, but the effects are dramatic, especially now that a new LTL is being rolled out (for the public to be acclimatized to) every second protest.
Since I doubt anyone here “convulses with horror” at the destruction of a star bucks window or the torching of a cop car, this should be a debate about the efficacy of tactics.
There’s an interesting example from the COINTELPRO period. Nine times out of ten the role of the informant was to encourage a particular action – usually property destruction or violence of some sort. But sometimes they would try to prevent behaviors. Example: An informant “started a Students for Democratic Society (SDS) chapter at his local college in order to keep tabs on the left and prevent student takeovers of buildings." (Marx)
Taking over a building is an example of illicit resistance that could actually help the cause, whereas breaking shit clearly does not.
Was it the Toronto Police who f*cked up this weekend, or the cops brought in from outside - or both? Anyone know?
I don't know if this video has been posted yet. It shows the police apparently engaged in randomly apprehending protestors:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6h3nCoNvldk&feature=popular
And here he is at Montebello in 2007.
Boom Boom, most of the reports I heard about this afternoon and evening of the cops going after completely peaceful protesters were the OPP. Led by that fucking fascist asshole, Fantino, who used to be the police chief in Toronto.
I was there today with Mrs. Ramone and kids (4, 9 and 11). I witnessed vile police state tactics and came close to being arrested myself by heavily armed mounted police, with my 4 year old on the back of my bike, simply for demanding that police xplain why clearly peaceful protesters were being arrested. I'll write more tomorrow. Best coverage I've seen tonight is on CP24, where they've interviewed several innocent people arrested tonight. Treason!
The Toronto G20 Riot Fraud: Undercover Police engaged in Purposeful Provocation At Tax Payers' Expense
Lets call this for what it is and not use the terminology of the bourgeoisie. It is not anti-G20 protesters. It is the revolt of the proletariat against the capitalist class.
The fence and the police are a direct threat to our class. It is state violence perpetrated on the prolitariat.
Make no mistake. Being "anti-G20" will get you no were fast. You need objective ideas and reasons to win this battle.
Boom Boom, most of the reports I heard about this afternoon and evening of the cops going after completely peaceful protesters were the OPP. Led by that fucking fascist asshole, Fantino, who used to be the police chief in Toronto.
I hope there's a gignormous lawsuit forthcoming against Fantino and his troopers.
so the so called black bloc really are agents of the state...wtg global research
Joey, I'll be really interested in reading about your experiences today when you get a chance to get it written out.
Joey, I'm looking forward to it too. Apologies if this has already been posted. It was brought to my attention by radiorahim in another context. Provided a very full belly laugh. Much appreciated.
"Do you know who Che Guevara is?" The potkerchief is such a nice touch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4r-6cnGkp3Y
Toronto police violently suppress G20 protests, arrest over 600
By Paul Franklin
As always, police provocation may well have played a role in isolated acts of vandalism. The patrol car, torched by three or four individuals, was done in full view of a whole phalanx of riot policemen who stood idly by at the intersection. “Backup! Put your batons down”, shouted the attending police captain to the riot squad. No attempt was made to arrest the perpetrators. Fire extinguishers possessed by the police were not deployed. The Toronto Fire Department, which can respond to any downtown emergency within minutes, did not arrive for over an hour as camera teams gathered from all the networks.
As the small group of anarchists proceeded onto Yonge Street, Toronto’s main shopping district, to smash more windows, reporters noted that despite the mobilization of thousands of police officers, not one could be seen on the city’s busiest thoroughfare.
Shortly thereafter, the office of Prime Minister Stephen Harper—the man who has shut down parliament twice in the space of two years to circumvent opposition to his government—issued a statement. “Free speech is a principle of our democracy, but thugs that prompted violence earlier today represent in no way, shape or form the Canadian way of life”.
--
The World Socialist Web Site carries no brief for those groups of anarchists who, by engaging in vandalism, arm the agents of the state with the propaganda to intensify their attacks on the democratic rights. Their actions play directly into the hands of the very forces they claim to oppose. As observers of other international summits are well aware, the police do not hesitate to infiltrate agents-provaceteurs into their ranks in order to create the sort of mayhem that allows for the unleashing of police terror against the general population.
It would not be the first time such tactics were used to create the conditions for further curtailment of democratic rights. In 2007, at a North American leaders’ conference in Montebello, Quebec, police dressed as demonstrators were filmed carrying rocks and agitating amongst the crowd to join them in violent acts. And in 2001 at the Genoa, Italy, G8 conference, police agents were discovered to have instigated violence during protests.
The media plays its role through all-night saturation coverage, preempting virtually all network programming, highlighting the vandalous actions of some seventy-five people. In comparison, when a hundred thousand people demonstrated in Toronto against the American invasion of Iraq in 2003, the largest social movement of Canadians in the country’s history, it rated a minute long sound-bite on the nation’s networks.
more:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/jun2010/poli-j28.shtml
My hats off to the protesters- ranging from "anarchist" black bloc to those who thought they had a right to protest.
etc.
No reported dmage to people and damage to prpoerety was limited to the breaking of windows, graffiti, gutting a Starbucks, nothing that canbe called excessive or life-threatening given the circumstnces. Lots of agent provcetierus and planted dmage from the cops.
The police security forces were leaderless, outmanouvered and easily demoralzied . Protestors took this one handily
.
Wjen there are over 600 arrests either the hdard core peicked upa lot of support of the police fucked up badly.
People like you are a part of the problem.
"success" to you means fucking with the police and security. Big fucking deal. outmanouvered and easily demoralzied? Is this the same police who bought tons of new shiny toys? Who collected ass loads of overtime I'm sure? Who got extra money for meals and incidentals working in TO for the weekend? The police didn't stop the "black block" because they didn't want to. The animals behaved infront of the camera exactly how police hoped. They just stood back and played the sympathy card. "Look at the chaos we have to deal with!"
You really showed them what for.
If the goal was to mix it up with the police smash stuff like a bunch of angry children and make the only thing the world saw of the G20 protests be a bunch of video clips of confrontations with the police mixed with smashing cars and windows then good job you sure accomplished that. We really "won" that one. Meanwhile I've been checking news websites, still not seeing much traffic about the actual fucking issues we were protesting. But I'm glad you had fun and got to throw some bricks.
Nathalie Des Rosiers of the Canadian Civil Liberties Association just announced on CBC that they will be taking legal action against some of the excesses and massive arrests committed by the police.
It's so silly when riot kiddies go on about how the left has never tried violence as a tactic, as if violence or property destruction is something new they've just discovered. Red Brigade anyone? The Situationists? What's so sad is that these riot kiddies are total tools of the state (big and necessary ones, so important to the war on terror that policing institutions are willing to create false flag operations to make sure that there are people dressed in black breaking things at any demonstration that has potential for popular support). I can sympathise on some levels because clearly they ARE being manipulated by the system and the machine they like to think they're monkey wrenching (when what they're actually doing is ensuring the clamp down is fully oiled and well funded).
Anarchy doesn't mean rebelling against your parents using the state as a proxy, it means taking personal responsibility for oneself and one's actions. It's pretty clear that despite bringing up past strikers that the riot kiddies posting here don't actually know their history - of violence, of change making, of effective protest, etc and are merely buying into the state's version of what anarchy and revolution look like (and then helping them sell it because they get off on the petty sense of power violence gives them and they feel entitled to use violence to try to get what they want...like any rapist or oppressor who feels entitled to put their own narcissistic desires above those of others instead of learning to share and balance power). Now, this doesn't mean that there isn't a place for a frontline that's willing to put their bodies on the line (as has been done many times in history before to win rights).
Besides, until someone who wants to dismantle society using violence can actually offer up something other than obscenely racist and colonialist fantasies about primitivism, they're part of the problem and not the solution. They should be ashamed that they place their narcissistic rage on such a high pedestal that they're colluding with the police state. Bloody protest tourism (and by this I don't mean people who legitimately travel to protest peacefully, I mean people who travel to other people's homes with the express intent of causing harm and creating violence). There's nothing local, collective, sustainable or constructive about that and clearly there's a lack of inventiveness, creativity and basic caring being expressed by anyone who thinks that violence is the only solution when DIY culture is about creating alternatives. No thanks to the riot tourists who - along with their fake anarchist undercover police operative friends - have managed to delegitimize the protests and aid the NeoCon agenda of perpetual war and war profits. You've also made the abuse of peaceful protesters acceptable to people on the fence (those who don't bother playing the stale right vs left games you do, and don't perpetuate the state's desired illusion that it's still right vs left not corporatism vs the people) because you've made it clear that your own narcissistic rage and inability to turn your anger into constructive action is all you care about.
Thanks for that, Fifi.
You have to admit that the black bloc police car burning took over the whole protest and the media coverage bigtime. I noticed that ctv coverage during the event pointed to how it seemed so decoyish that these cars seemed intentionally placed where they were and the lack of police interference during the entire fire-starting event. Like it was planned. Again we have a situation that serves the government well…Harper uses it as an excuse -the public denounces demonstrators as violent vandals etc etc. Even the media jumped on board. The government screamed “thugs”. All it will take is that one piece of evidence to show that police dressed up as black bloc intentionally to derail it all, a tactic they did at Montebello and got caught red handed and for which they got away with. No question democracy is dead ever since the Harper regime (30% support) 70% against has taken over our government. If it turns out to be pigs dressed in black that should end any argument on whether violence is necessary as the operation will continue to be played out over and over again till it is addressed. The enemy won’t be an “ issue” it will be the police and government…a road to insurgency..this could be part of Harpers plan to undermine our country. The conservatives are the problem , they must be removed from power asap and replaced with the NDP simple as that, then exposed and charged…like being war criminals isn’t bad enough. People laughed at the suggestion that conservatives would turn Canada into a police state and arrest people like the war measures act..lo and behold the conservatives arrested more than the Trudeau era did…of course this could be Harpers last charade and he pulled all the stops. And let the little piggies have some fun, before he gets shipped to the Hague for a good hanging. Well at least no one died from the police state action.
Killing people would be counterproductive to the police because it would incite a full inquiry - like it did in the UK - this was about PR (and making sure that those who benefit from selling weapons profited, what we're seeing right now is the amping up of disaster capitalism into perpetual war for profit). The best PR is images of men/boys in black with their face covered breaking shit and being violent and cop cars on fire. The cartoon AnarchistsTM provided that - whether they were in the pay of the state or just kids who are just as narcissistic as the yuppies they hate and envy (yes, it's pretty clear they're as obsessed by objects and possessions - as opposed to being interested in people and culture - as the yuppies they think they're attacking via breaking a Starbucks window or setting a car on fire). Sure some are just misguided kids, all the more reason why their elders need to pull them back when they're hurting others through their counterproductive (and essentially counterrevolutionary) actions that merely copycat what they've seen on tv themselves. Kind of sad how hollow and inauthentic even their quest for authenticity and engagement is...
A lot of energy spent denouncing the Black Bloc - the irrelevance continues!
If a few dimbulbs hadn't done the dress up and smash windows thing on their own, the State would have taken care of it. We've all seen the Dave Coles video but this summit and attendant price tag were a much bigger deal, ratcheting up the pressure on the authorities to justify their little orgy of intimidation. Under such conditions can anyone give a compelling reason why the state should suddenly decide - this state, this Harper-state - to reverse its established practice and NOT employ agents provocateurs?
Add the testimonies of witnesses who noticed how passive the police were in the face of the torching of their gascap-less cars and their conspicuous absence during the 'black bloc's triumphal tour of Yonge Street, and I'm satisfied this was all scripted in advance.
Do you really think you can get 10 to 20,000 police together on a well paid holiday away and NOT have gratuituous violence? What ARE you people smoking?
PB - for god's sake, when I say "you", I'm not talking about you. I'm talking about the organizers of these mass events. And when I said "your scenario", I meant, the scenario you outlined. I thought that was pretty clear. But if not, I apologize.
Secondly, I really honestly think you missed my entire point. I was not saying what people should have done yesterday and today in Toronto. I'm not there. What I was saying, in essence, that it's too late for this event. What I was describing to you was my opinion of the way such mobilizations ought to be (and have in the past on many occasions actually been) organized.
Tactics are decided in advance. Leaders are decided. Everyone follows orders. Marshalls are clearly identified, in contact with each other and with the leadership, and they take action when there's trouble. Not you, not me - the marshalls.
I hope that clarifies my comments.
ETA: Forgot to mention. Some protest organizers were interviewed in the days leading up to this weekend. When asked their attitude to violent demonstrators, they didn't reply. That's not leadership, and it's not good for the movement. And it's symptomatic of disorganization on all fronts.
Its cool, Unionist. Sorry if I got testy there. I thought that I had made it clear that under the circumstance for the protesters around the burning cars and other acts of wonton foolishness that my words were at least partially applicable.
And I agree entirely with how these things should be handled before hand.
G20 protest organisers - did they speak to the police beforehand about co-operation with regard to handling this "black bloc"? Surely someone must have anticipated these folks would be there. Police spokesmen should have reached out to protest organisers well in advance of all this shit.
I posted my experiences yesterday here: http://www.rabble.ca/babble/activism/protest-police-state-tactics-toront...
I hate you black bloc whoever you are and whatever you did. Someone get me my rope.
The evidence clearly points to the police cars being burnt in a police action. But go back to slamming the young anarchists, it is a century old tradition on the left in this country.
Most of the young people wearing bandanas at demonstrations do so as a precaution against tear gas and pepper spray both of which were deployed by the police against peaceful protesters with no provocation. I have seen police deploy tear gas and pepper spray in Canada for at least a dozen years so I sort of understand why some people think they might be at risk of police violence.
Harper sent the message to the rich of the world that he wanted to. Canada is open for business with a compliant population.
What young anarchists? Just because someone's wearing an AnarchistTM uniform doesn't actually mean they're an anarchist, it just means they're into AnarchyTM (the ad soundtrack features Rage Against The Machine, of course, nothing like corporate sanctioned "revolution"). Breaking shit doesn't make you an anarchist, it makes you someone who breaks shit. It's perfectly legit to wear a bandana when there's tear gas and pepper spray - that wasn't the case here, it was purely to hide identities.
There are a couple of good reasons NOT to maks oneself during a demonstration unless entirely necessary.
1. The people who need to wear masks the most are cops posing as AnarchistsTM or kids into looting, not actual anarchists who are quite willing to show their faces in my experience.
2. If someone is actually an active anarchist and community organizer, the cops already know who they are - yet again no reason to hide ones identity from other protesters.
3. Real anarchists are perfectly willing to unmask themselves - in front of the cops - as seen by the video of Montecello (and born out by my own experience).
4. By unmasking ourselves we put the cops on the defensive since they're much more desperate to be anonymous that we are.
I agree with Fifi. I don't like labels, but if my general outlook had to be labelled, I guess I'm an anarchist, but I have nothing in common with the nitwits who smashed windows on Saturday, or the one I witnessed in Sunday trying to turn a peaceful demo into a violent confrontation with police. They gave police leadership the excuse to order the mass arrests peaceful protesters. Thanks assholes.
Something more for discussion/debate:
How the 'black bloc' protected the G20
The evidence clearly points to the police cars being burnt in a police action. But go back to slamming the young anarchists, it is a century old tradition on the left in this country.
Are you saying the police lit the cars on fire themselves or that it's okay that someone from the black block lit the cars on fire because the police were baiting them?
Right on Fifi
Something more for discussion/debate:
How the 'black bloc' protected the G20
Okay, I can believe it but why? Why can there be no doubt? Do we actually have proof? I'm not dismissing it as a very real possibility but I'm wondering why there can be "no doubt". Just because it makes sense and we want to believe it?
I saw on TV that the cops went after Parkdale Community Legal Services on Sunday afternoon. Does anyone else know anything about that?
Something more for discussion/debate:
How the 'black bloc' protected the G20
Great article.
sparky, look at the global research links and your questions will be answered.
I didn't see a lot of pictures of people in black clothes being arrested and detained. Indeed, I haven't seen one. I have seen a few of people in black wearing masks doing some property damage, unmolested. Otherwise, and in the main, I have seen a lot of masked people in black violently attacking, subduing and dragging away people in normal street wear.
Indeed, on the mainstream media, mostly what I am seeing is a constant overlay of officials from the likes of Stephen Harper and Mayor Miller being used in voice over, as they describe thugs and anarchists roaming the streets and causing damage. However, for some reason, the accompanying film footage shows police rounding up what appear to be random teenagers and university students, wearing everything from shorts to pink t-shirts.
Naomi Klein will be on P&P in a few minutes about the G20!
Okay, I can believe it but why? Why can there be no doubt? Do we actually have proof? I'm not dismissing it as a very real possibility but I'm wondering why there can be "no doubt". Just because it makes sense and we want to believe it?
SparkyOne, I think you're right about that wording - I've changed it to 'I consider it more than likely that....' - sure there can be doubt, where can't there be? It is my opinion we're talking about after all.... thanks, -A