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...whether or not they have done anything or learned anything.
If people can't meet standards of excellence, then let's lower the standards so that everyone's a winner!!
You're allowed to be cranky. Can't I be cranky? I stand by my general observation that young people do not possess such a unique perspective or untapped wisdom such as the media and student activists like to espouse.
More appropriately it would apply to students of economics.
Geez CF, I knew you'd call me on that one, but the best graphic I could find wasn't as good as the torture one:
ETA: Oh, and then there was this:
Was that substitution of conjunction by preposition an inadvertent gaffe, or was it an oblique reference to the reported fact that, like, young folks these days, like, apparently like to, like, overuse "like"?
As an English teacher, that's a good image.
Except maybe those taught with an Economics Anti-Textbook. Here is a link to a Rod Hill blog. I loved this quote which fits in perfectly with my understanding of the skills required to read the entrails of a chicken.
Soothsayers had a better record of prediction than economists
Not fear, just resignation at the fact that he was not going to get any backup or support from administration, and that any student paying attention was quite aware of that.
Does race and wealth have something to do with whether a student would speak up? Perhaps, but I can't see what it has to do with my point, which is the need for a teacher to be able to do his or her job. Do you think it is a good thing that teachers cannot enforce discipline, not only in following the curriculum, but also in preventing disruption and bullying other students? Suppose it was a white male student getting reprimanded for bullying a female or non-white one and challenging the teacher. Does that have any bearing on what is right and wrong in this situation?
For all the talk of principles and policies, I'd say schools are far more influenced positively and negatively by direct democracy - at the school board level, and across the principle's desk. That's how my dad wound up retaining his left-handedness. My grandmother went down to the school and somehow they were magically able to make an exception to their way of doing things.
Same as you will still find plenty of public schools which still have religious trappings and practices. Depending on who is running the show at the local level, they can enforce or turn a blind eye to the rules at will. That's why this story of him getting canned just because of one grade doesn't ring true for some reason.
It's interesting that what makes one person a maverick and another a revolutionary often comes down to where we stand on the action..
Like an English teacher, and you're asking for trouble.
I like the concept of Incomplete not a zero. That is the system my son has seen in both high school and university. You only get so long to turn an incomplete into a complete and there is a penalty in marks if you hand it in late. if you don't hand it in at all you only get an I ever not a mark.
This teacher is fighting a battle over a non existent problem. He doesn't like the school boards approach. My high school teachers in a catholic boys school hit kids on the side of the head and threw chalk brushes at their heads for the same reason as this teacher wants to use shame as a teaching tool.
see, like again, brass tacks and all that, i'm for pretty much anything that that (re-)organizes the teaching environment in such a way that students get more knowledge and a more enriching experience, but i just can't see how this policy in edmonton does that. getting a zero on an assignment isn't even penalization, it's just transactional, you didn't turn in the assignment and we're not here to baby-sit you. in some ideal world, we would indeed have ultra engaged students and our courses would be like extracts from the symposium and when you couldn't turn something in on time you'd just fire a text over to your prof and she'd just nod and that would be it. but like if i don't show up for the classes and i don't turn in any work, and policy says that this can't be penalized, i think they've taken the wrong lessons from the left. it's actually kind of insulting.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this.
Some people see it as shaming? Unless he made him wear the paper in class stuck to his nose with a piece of gum, I don't see that. As it is, were it not for the suspension, who would know about this grade, which is between the teacher, the student, and the parents? It's only shaming if it is used to shame.
And the comparison with physical violence is even more far-fetched. Me getting a sharp ruler across the knuckles in grade 1 for writing "cats" instead of "the Cat" as dictated is violence. It's about the only thing I do remember from grade 1, as a matter of fact.
I think of it more like a lesson in science or mathematics. If you put 0ml or fluid into a beaker, the beaker will contain 0ml of fluid, and the beaker won't magically disappear if you ignore it long enough.
Understanding that is probably a good way to prepare students for the day when they will have to deal with: "papers handed in late will not be graded".
My only question left unresolved is a mathematical one that the original story is vague about. If a student has 5 assignment and she completes 4 of them with an 80% average and doesn't complete the last one what happens. Does his last one get ignored and he gets 80% for the course. That would be a system that is without merit to me. In BC in high school an "I" means no course added to the total of completed courses required for graduation. I believe my sons teachers could also mathematically take the 320 marks that the 80% represented and give the student a 64% average which is of course effectively a "0" but no student ever got a zero.
Does anyone know what the Edmonton system actually is?
typical lazy bcer, wants the grade without the work https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&q=edmonton+no+zero+policy
(kidding)
In the "real" world employees who are insubordinate are given zero future paychecks. The three part test for insubordination, was a clear order given, did the employee hear and understand the order and finally did the employee disobey the order? That's the real world that this teacher claims he wants to prepare students for. Yes he can protest but he if he wants to avoid being a hypocrite he also must take the consequences of refusing to do the work as assigned.
I'll bet. My best friend is a teacher in Toronto. He went from a rough inner city school to a school in Forest Hill and noted the differences. He said the Forest Hill parents would constantly complain to him, pressure him to change their kids' grades, etc.
Normally, I think it's kind of lame to slag someone for grammar mistakes here. But, given the context of your post, I couldn't help myself! :P
I took it as friendly fire and thought it was very funny - so out of practice in rereading anything I write these days.
From a worker's point of view I do not believe the teacher should have been suspended for giving grades of zero for uncompleted work.
From a pedagogical pov, I don't believe a grade of zero should be given for uncompleted work. It getsto the point of what grades are supposed to be. In theory, they are supposed to be an assessment of a piece work. If a piece of work does not exist then there is nothing to assess;.
School should be more than simply learning substantive subjects: What if the Secret to Success is Failure?
It doesn't have to be on a downward slant to be bad enough as it is.
If a student placed their X on a paper in lieu of a signature and handed it in otherwise blank, a mark of at least .01 or something should be considered if only as a gesture of encouragement to do more the next time around. Giving a zero seems to me to be punitive, which was and apparently very much still is the way in which old school academia is manifested in its relationship to youth. At one time punishment took the form of the arbitrary ruler across the knuckles and head approach, that they don't nearly do as much of anymore. It's replacement as a form of arbitrary punishment is the zero. Emphasis is retained on the psychological instead of the psychological plus physical. I suspect that is all this 'educator' hopes to accomplish, which is an exercise in power not quite the way it was once done, but the message is similar.
I think the notion that this is shaming or punitive is a completely false perception. The corollary of making this a value system is that students who get straight As are somehow better, more deserving of praise, and harder working than those who struggle to pass.
Both ideas are completely false. If the student had handed in the work and gotten one question right, the mark would have reflected that. How is that in any way punitive or a subjective decision on the part of the teacher?
It is not punishment, it is a fair assessment of the work, and sometimes that work includes completing it.
Now I am not at all against using this method in the cases of students who really need it. The problem is when it becomes the rule. And what worries me is how does the teacher (and it DOES come down to the teacher) explain to students who struggle hard to pass that this is fair.
Because while there are some who may need this extra leeway, there are some who will see this and play it, and the notion that that is not the case is ridiculous. Procrastination is just as much a problem for adults, and crosses all genders, races and politics.
Fact: Some people need deadlines.
Who is going to recognize the difference? Probably no one better than the teacher. And without the power to say enough is enough this makes an extremely stressful job even harder than it is already.
A better response would have been that no grading is possible, but that grading might be considered if and when the work materializes, or if there's interest expressed on the part of a student to write a revised exam. A zero has the effect of imparting worthlessness to the student, which can be taken as a punishment for behaviour instead of an academic finding.
So nobody ever hands in work. What then?
I think I made a pretty clear challenge in my last post to the false perception that this is punishment. Like it or not, completing the work is part of the work.
Again, how would you explain that to students who struggle and sacrifice to get their work in? And what incentive is there for a student to change, knowing that it really doesn't make any difference?
-again, if this is an across the board rule, that a teacher ignores on pain of his or her job, rather than a special exception that can be used as needed.
I don't think anyone here is suggesting anything as novel as that. Heaven forbid.
False by your estimation.
The same way as it should be explained to the right wing, don't tax me elements of society that social safety systems are a necessary part of society, that it is ultimately in their interest to extend a level of functionality within the system to all of its citizens. Or else one might wind up with a revolution or something, which they certainly wouldn't like I'm sure. Where it concerns the school system, failed 'subjects' that move out into the society by and large are the source material for revolt.
So the teacher expects the student to comply with rules and expectations, on pain of being rewarded according to a made up rule, where the teacher first ignores the rule they're supposed to uphold in the first instance. What message is the teacher trying to get across exactly? Power creates its own rules?
This in some ways to gets to the issue of what is the purpose of grades? I must say i prefer a system more akin to that at Alverno College.
http://www.alverno.edu/grades/
SJ, there's a big difference between society as a whole, and relationships and situations where there needs to be authority and the means to back it up. This is especially true when it comes to the development of children, but really no different than a place like this website.
The parallel you are trying to draw is false, despite its revolutionary allure.
Again, I am not arguing at all against using this as an exception, when it is really needed. But to have it as the rule is extremely fucked up, for students even more than for teachers.
Indeed incentive is the other side of the punishment coin. Carrot meet stick. Debating whether or not giving a student a zero is a carrot or a stick misses the point. The point is to improve outcomes of students. A presumption that giving a zero is going to lead to better outcomes is needed to agree with this man's insubordination. I am not an expert in the field but I doubt that there are studies that are definitive.
Given that he believes that it is good for students to suffer the consequences of their actions when they disobey a teacher directive on an assignment I find his complaining about being disciplined hypocritical. I think this teacher should have obeyed his bosses and opposed the policy in a manner that did not mean he was superseding his authority in relation to his students. He has inserted these students into his protest.
What if a teacher gives everyone 75% because he thinks they are all trying but with different abilities. Should he be allowed to mark in that manner or would his employer have a right to tell him not to? How about a teacher who thinks that standards are too lax on grammar and other basics so no one in the class gets more than a 55%. Of course others would accuse him of being punitive for marking a grade ten paper with a 51% because it does not meet the expectations for a second year university student but they would not understand the great incentive that seeing what the real world of university is like would be for a grade ten student used to coasting for B- marks.
All those teachers should either not be allowed to substitute their view of teaching for the views of their employers or all of them should.
Thing is, that question is absurd, given the inconsistencies and levels of influence in the public school system - from the provincial level, to the board, to the administration, to the principal, to the classroom.
Just one example:
http://www.winnipegfreepress.com/local/schools-ignore-prayer-rules-12447...
Only one example. Throw in who happens to be whose bowling buddy, which kid is on the football team, or an issue that touches on religion, politics, gender or race, and things get a little bit more convoluted
Though I must say, it is very interesting who comes out in favour of hierarchy, and who does not, depending on the issue.
Of course teachers have different ways of doing things. I'd have never gotten through school otherwise.
I've got a kid who does great work and gets really good grades - when it's done on time and she remembers to hand it in. We've struggled with this all year (her first in high school) and it's been an uphill battle. For homework checks, when the homework hasn't been started she gets a zero from the teacher and no sympathy from me. If she's late on an assignment, the grade is reduced. If she doesn't hand it in at all, she gets zero.
I don't think it's fair to have the teacher have to chase down the kid, or to assign a mark on something they don't see and therefore cannot assess. If there are no consequences to not completing or failing to hand in work, there's no impetus to learn how to organize yourself and your work - soft skills that kids should be learning in high school. It's not about punishment. I parent my kids the same way, using consequence rather than punishment. The consequence for disorganization and laziness is a lower grade. If there's a chronic problem, then the parents should be involved. If we hadn't been alerted to the missed assignments by the marks being lower than expected, how would we know she needed help learning those skills? (Hint: Kid was not going to tell me!) In a sense, a no-zero policy stands to mask a problem rather than deal with it.
We've been able to, through an online portal for the school, look at the range of marked assignments and do the comparison and contrast with our daughter so that she can see what she would have gotten with the standard of work she does and what the missed and late assignments have cost her. This may not work on some kids, but mine is starting to come around because her work is important to her. She's gotten her assignments in on time and has gotten some great marks, which will pull her grades up further, which is a reward.
Sometimes I think we go further than we should in minimizing consequences for our kids. There may be a small subset of kids that the no-zero policy will help, but overall I think it's less helpful for the majority of kids.